OTJunky - Posted - 06/29/2007:  20:42:34

Hmmm - what seem's to be missing here is the bowing that Alan Jabour attributes to Henry Reed...

d - - u - - d -

and what we used to call in North Florida the "Georgia Bow"

d - u - - d -

or did I just miss these?

OTJ

OTJunky - Posted - 06/29/2007:  20:44:10

Uhhh - sorry, this is the "Georgia Bow"

d - u d - - u -



OTJ

fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/29/2007:  21:50:32

OTJ,

Thanks for sharing them- of course I'll have to try them!

I'm just guessing, (Dave may be asleep by now, or off gigging)
but I see two problems that might limit the usefulness
of the two bowings you mention.

The one from Henry Reed ends on a down bow.
That forces you to begin the next measure or pattern
on an upbow, which is not the common way of doing things.

The "Georgia Bow" has more notes on the down strokes
than on the upstrokes. 5 to 3.
To keep from running out of bow
you have to make the upstrokes stronger or at least
cover more bow length than the downstrokes.
Still, it's not as out of balance as Georgia Shuffle is
in the <opposite> direction where it's 3 to 1 in favor
of notes being on the upstroke. On that one,
you <really> pull down hard on the downstroke to compensate.

Anyway I wouldn't say they are impossible, but they might
require little tricks to make them work well, and so would
be considered more advanced or specialized bowings.

Dave did say the list wasn't exhaustive.
There are some bow licks Tommy Jarrell used that aren't
on there, and there are two others I use quite a bit that
aren't on there. But the ones in Dave's list are all
"bread and butter" bow patterns that many different styles
are built around.

Some bow patterns are better used as accents to get
a certain phrase right, but not for the main course.



Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!"-
Walt Kelly's Pogo

OTJunky - Posted - 06/29/2007:  23:16:48

I forgot to mention the common Texas pattern - "Push Pull"

u - D - u - D -

so you get an accent with the down bow on beats 2 and 4. This is often used to put that distiinctive Texas "kick" in something like Tom and Jerry.

As for the "Georgia Bow", of course you wouldn't use all the way through on anything - for the reasons you suggest and because it would be boring. But it's a very nice bowing pattern to throw in on something like the first couple of bars of Billy in the Low Ground for example.

I'd say the same thing about the pattern that Alan Jabour says he learned from Henry Reed. It's not too hard to apply it twice, then you're back on the down bow and can go where you like.

BTW, didn't mean to come across as critical of Dave's list or anything he said. I've enormous respect for his fiddling knowledge - and for his playing. And I think everything he's said here is spot on.

Just wanted to add some things I've run across.




OTJ

jfrebel - Posted - 06/30/2007:  01:08:15

I wonder if some can post recording of the various bowing techniques so we can hear what they are supposed to sound like.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/30/2007:  02:10:02

Here's a couple more:

d u - d u d u - 1-2-1-2-1-1

I've heard this in Mel Durham's playing.
(edit: Brad Leftwich calls it "Tommy's Lick".)
Tom Sauber showed it to me.
It's like Nashville Shuffle, but the length of the 1st and 2nd strokes
is reversed so it's Short-Long-Short, Long-Short-Short.
So it syncopates. I find it useful on the first notes of Chicken Reel to
make that syncopated cluck. Anywhere else a syncopation is needed it might work,
like on many tunes of minstrel origin. It took me a while to get it smooth, it
didn't seem natural at all, but now I use it a lot.
Because it ends like a Nashville Shuffle it blends well with other patterns
that end the same way like Sawshuffle and Smoothshuffle.

d u - d u d-u 1-2-1-1-2-1
This is very similar to the above, in fact, the first part is identical,
but then the second part is also 1-2-1.
In effect, it's the motions of Nashville Shuffle shoved over a single note,
so the long stroke is in the middle, and the 2 single strokes are divided
by the measure lines. It gives a very bouncy feel that's great on slow
bouncy tunes like "Bull At The Wagon".

I have a strong preference for patterns that begin with a single downstroke,
and these two fill that bill.

Michael

Edited PS: my descriptive nickname for the first bowing is
Syncoshuffle, since it is so effective in playing syncopated
passages.
The second bowing could be called the Bouncy Shuffle,
or maybe Offset Nashville Shuffle.

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!"-
Walt Kelly's Pogo

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 03/24/2010 12:08:18

OTJunky - Posted - 06/30/2007:  07:54:36

Michael,

Thanks for mentioning that 1-2-1-1-2-1 pattern.

I think it's used a lot by the old time fiddlers on things like Lonesome Road Blues and Long Journey Home. And you're right that it takes some work to make it smooth.

A really good example is Gaither Carlton's playing behind Doc Watson.

This reminds me that I haven't listened to that in a very long time so that's what I'll be doing this week-end.

Thanks again...

OTJ

fiddlepogo - Posted - 06/30/2007:  17:28:22

OTJ,

Sure.
Yeah, It's a pretty common bowing,
actually, they both are.
The one that's the same pattern reversed
in the first and second parts I think gets
used a lot among younger Appalachian fiddlers.
I heard it from one fiddler at Galax in '76,
but now it seems to be all over the place.
It's deceptive, because when you look at it,
the bow motions are so much like Nashville
that you might think it <was> Nashville,
but it bounces a whole lot more than the
Nashville Shuffle does.

One thing I forgot to mention.
In both of them, the two note slur starts on the second
note, but is <pushed> on the third note.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!"-
Walt Kelly's Pogo

dsreiner - Posted - 06/30/2007:  20:29:57

Michael -

I'll look forward to trying those out. I don't think I play them now, but slow and bouncy sounds like fun.

I'm headed off for a nap now, having played 4 hours of tunes for a pancake breakfast, baking competition, and corn-shucking contest off in Carlisle, MA, starting at 8AM.

Dave

Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Founder and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/01/2007:  14:53:05

Slow and bouncy is good for sure!

One of the big reasons for using a variety of bowing patterns
is that they allow you to give each tune a different character,
which helps avoid the criticism "It all sounds alike!"
High energy driving tunes are great, but a steady diet
of them can turn quite a few audience members off.
People who are new to fiddle music, in particular,
need this variety, and especially slower tunes,
since their ears haven't adjusted yet to following high speed
melody lines. But without something to make it bounce,
a slow tune just draaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaags.

A variety of tempos and bowing patterns I think is also good to reduce repetitive strain on the bowing arm and wrist.


Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!"-
Walt Kelly's Pogo

Renaissance_Woman - Posted - 07/02/2007:  01:45:27

Great info! Thanks Everyone!

I printed everything up and inserted it in my fiddling notebook for easy reference.

Suze
Making music for the JOY of it!

dsreiner - Posted - 07/02/2007:  10:35:54

Playing the double shuffle - and the rare "triple shuffle"!

The double shuffle is also called the "Orange Blossom Special shuffle" -- or "hokum shuffle." It is a rapid string crossing pattern involving 16 saw stroke notes (one measure of 4/4 time or two measures of 2/4 time) that outline a particular chord. It's your basic crowd pleaser, outlawed in fiddle contests, except for the Trick and Fancy Division. It shows up in tunes like Back Up and Push, Bowing the Strings, or Catharsis (a modern Irish tune). Bluegrass fiddlers throw it in when they run out of other ideas.

Conceptually, you can think of the double shuffle as dividing the 16 notes into five groups of 3 plus one more at the end. Each group of 3 usually consists of two low string notes followed by a high string note. The double shuffle should not be thought of or practiced as four groups of 4 notes the way it is usually written in books. Think in groups of 3! I can hear the difference immediately when a fiddler plays a double shuffle in groups of 4. The third note in each group of 3 should be accented.

For example, on the top two open strings, two measures of 2/4 time ("|" is the bar line), the string crossing pattern is:
AAE AAE AA | E AAE AAEA

Outlining a G chord on the top two strings:
BBG BBA BB | B(4th on Estring) BBA BBGB

Notice that there are 5 accented notes (out of 16) on the top string, spaced irregularly with respect to the beat. These go up, then down: G A B A G. This pattern helps you know when you're done with the shuffle.

You can practice double shuffle on any two or three string chords. For example, play a slow shuffle on a G chord (as above), pause, then a slow shuffle on a D chord (open D, open A, first finger alternating with third finger on E). After you're comfortable with that, diminish the pause until you can play continuously. Then work on speeding it up. With three strings, you should hit the low two strings twice, then the upper two strings once (but there's enough bow rocking going on that this isn't precise, especially for the two lower strings),

There are musical examples of double shuffles in my book, Oldtime Fiddling Across America (and other books, too), so I won't say more here.

But what about that triple shuffle? It's rare, and rarely written about, so I'll cover the basics for you.

I use a triple shuffle pattern in Draggin' the Bow. Unlike the double shuffle, it is composed of triplets (so there are 12 notes to a 2/4 measure, not 8 as in the double shuffle).

The high string notes fall on beats and offbeats, rather than falling irregularly as in the double shuffle.

Thus there are 8 accented notes (not 5 as in the double shuffle) on the top of the two strings, and there is no extra bow stroke at the end.

Also, the triple shuffle starts with two bow strokes before the measure. This means chord changes happen a little in advance of the measure boundary.

Played in 2/4 time on the A (low) string, and E (high) string, the string pattern is:

AA | EAA EAA EAA EAA | EAA EAA EAA E-- |

"|" represents the bar line, and "-" is where the next triple shuffle starts.

In Draggin' the Bow, the actual notes on the A and E strings are:

DD | EDD G#DD F#DD F#DD | EDD G#DD F#DD F#C#C#
| EC#C# A#C#C# F#C#C# F#C#C# | EC#C# A#C#C# F#C#C# F#DD |

| EDD G#DD F#DD F#DD | EDD G#DD F#DD F#C#C#
| EC#C# F#C#C# G#C#C# A#C#C# | BC#C# A#C#C# G#C#C# F#-- |

In other words, the first two notes are 3rd finger D on the A string.

This represents the chord progression E7 A E7 A over 8 measures of 2/4 time. Note that the backup instruments can stop on the last A chord, which is when the fiddle hits 8 different notes on the top string (E F# G# A B A G# F#).

At this point, you're<

Edited by - dsreiner on 07/02/2007 19:58:24

oldtimer - Posted - 07/02/2007:  18:00:13

Very good description of the double-shuffle, Dave.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

"Time passes unhindered"

dsreiner - Posted - 07/03/2007:  16:21:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldtimer

Very good description of the double-shuffle, Dave.

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

---

dsreiner - Posted - 07/06/2007:  10:33:43

Just a quick note that I'll be teaching a bowing workshop at Fiddle Hell, Massachusetts (first weekend of November; see listing in Events). We'll cover quite a few of the above patterns in the context of fiddle tunes.

Also, my son Andy will be teaching a half-hour chop bowing workshop there. Chop bowing is very close to the frog, and includes rhythmic, accented patterns as well as crunched and ghost notes, a la Richard Green, Darol Anger, Casey Driessen, Rushad Egleston, etc.

Dave

Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Founder and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

lazyjohn - Posted - 07/20/2007:  13:04:55

Thank you so much for all the great info you guys have provided here. I come to the fiddle from the mandolin so my left hand is somewhat prepared but I have had a hard time distinguishing different bowing patterns on recordings. I just started taking lessons from Luke Mercier (lukemercier.com), a great OT fiddler and and we're going over the fundamentals so that is a great help. Anyway thanks again for this very useful info and taking the time to offer some assistance beginners.

Shane Crumb,
Lazy John

Edited by - lazyjohn on 07/20/2007 13:06:37

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/21/2007:  04:50:24

For my part, sure you're welcome-
(I'll let Dave speak for himself! )

And I heard and enjoyed your tunes on ezfolk!

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

dsreiner - Posted - 07/21/2007:  19:10:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by lazyjohn

Thank you so much for all the great info you guys have provided here. I come to the fiddle from the mandolin so my left hand is somewhat prepared but I have had a hard time distinguishing different bowing patterns on recordings...

Shane Crumb,
Lazy John

---

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/22/2007:  23:14:42

Dave,

It's occurred to me that there is one
more very important bowing pattern that
is very common in bluegrass, and I've
been finding it useful in Old Time as well,
but I am at a loss as to how to graph it out.

It is basically a series of 4 note slurs where
the change in bow direction comes before the 3rd
note or backbeat, emphasizing it. So the general
effect is somewhat like Georgia Shuffle, but even smoother.
Also, just as Georgia Shuffle blends well with assymetric
patterns like Sawstroke,
this Super Smooth Shuffle blends well with
"balanced" bowings like the Nashville Shuffle and
the Offset Shuffle.

This is one bowing that I just do intuitively by the seat of my pants... I don't know how I start it, but it has a very characteristic
appearance similar to Nashville Shuffle but less jerky looking.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

dsreiner - Posted - 07/23/2007:  11:51:02

I haven't heard of the 4-4-4-4 offset onto the offbeat the way you describe, Michael. I did mention 4-4 and 5-5-6 in my original posting; one could play 5-5-4-4 to get some of the effect you describe.

My touchstones for smooth bluegrass playing are Vassar Clements and Kenny Baker. Vassar showed me how to play Lonesome Fiddle Blues a long time ago, and there are certainly multiple notes per bow, but not quite as regular as 4-4-4-4, offset or not.

I'll dig up some old notes on Kenny Baker and post in a moment.

Dave

Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

dsreiner - Posted - 07/23/2007:  11:52:34

Kenny Baker uses a fair amount of standard bowings, especially:
saw stroke: d u d u d u d u
3 3 1 1: d - - u - - d u
Nashville shuffle (just to start some tunes): d - u d u - d u

But he also uses some less common longer slurs that reinforce melodic phrases:
Grey Eagle: 2 3 2 1 2 4 1 1: d - u - - d - u d - u - - - d u
Indian Killed a Woodchuck: 3 4 1 1 1 2 4: d - - u - - - d u d u - d - - -
Bluegrass in the Backwoods: 2 2 2 1 1: d - u - d - u d

... or cross bar lines...
Dry and Dusty: d - u d u - - d - u d u - d u d
Doc Harris the Fisherman: 1 2 1 1 1 2 - 6 2: d u - d u d u - - - - - - - d -

In slower pieces (mainly 3/4), Kenny phrases long bows that cross bar lines to group musical phrases. Listen to Festival Waltz and Lonesome Moonlight Waltz. He also slurs the long drawn-out notes in faster tunes, such as Flopareno.

In general, long bowers do use some standard patterns, but intersperse them with unusual tune-specific patterns that group phrases on one (or a few) bows. Their patterns are less regular, and they're more likely to start measures on an upbow.

As an experiment, take one of your favorite tunes and just keep a few of the down or upbows going until it feels right to break out of them. A fluid right hand helps a lot with long bowing.

Incidentally, the bowings in the Oak book on Kenny Baker (by David Brody) always struck me as pretty accurate. Of course, Kenny didn't always play the exact same bowings the times I've heard him.

Dave


Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

dsreiner - Posted - 07/23/2007:  11:54:07

Speaking of bluegrass, we haven't even mentioned the Byron Berline and Scotty Stoneman shuffles!

Dave

Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/23/2007:  16:36:35

It's possible that the bowing I was trying to describe
<is> the Byron Berline Shuffle, or one of his-
I saw him at McCabe's Guitar Shop in Santa Monica
in the early '70s, and he really made a good impression on me...
and I <think> he was the first one I noticed doing that smooth
backbeat shuffle I described.
(later edited note- it's not the same bowing!)

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 08/25/2007 02:06:52

dsreiner - Posted - 07/23/2007:  20:41:30

u - D u D u - - D u D u - - D r
is the 2-measure Berline string crossing shuffle, on either 2 or 3 strings. Upbows are all on the lower string (or lower 2 strings). Downbows are all on the upper string, and accented.

r = rest
u - = a half step slide up into the note (or chord)
u - - = a slide down then back up into the note (or chord)

For example, C on the G string, F# on the D string, open A. Slide into the C - F# double stop, rock twice to the open A (or the open A with the F#), slide down and up on the lower double stop, then rock up for a last downbow. This outlines a D7 chord.

Hard to explain in words... Berline likes to put this in measures 7 and 8 of a 16 measure break, on the V chord.

This impressive shuffle is much easier to play than it sounds . The left hand motion is miniscule, and the bow rocking is easy once you get it.

Dave


Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/23/2007:  21:08:44

Impressive it may be,
(I'll have to try it)
but it looks like:

1. A measure of backwards Nashville,
starting on the upstroke.
2. A measure of your #3 shuffle that
I call the "Unshuffle"
3. A full sequence of "Sawshuffle."

Did I get that right?

And no, that's not the bowing pattern I was thinking of.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 07/23/2007 21:10:36

OTJunky - Posted - 07/23/2007:  21:39:23

Since I've a mathematical bent, I thought I'd share some calculations on the theoretical limit for the number of possible bowing patterns for a measure of fiddle music in 4/4 time. The calculation assumes you'd only change bow direction on the beat or between two beats - where an eighth note might fall.

Since at each place in the measure where an eighth note might fall you have two options - either change bow direction or don't - and since you have seven opportunities to change bow direction (the opportunity at the end of the last eighth note doesn't count) then you'd have 2 raised to the 7th power - or 128 - possible bowing patterns if you started the first note on the down bow. Of course, you'd have the same 128 patterns if you started the measure with an up bow though these would be duplicates of the patterns initiated with the down bow - except with the bow moving in the opposite direction.

Since it does matter somewhat which direction the bow's moving, that's a total 0f 256 possible bowing patterns that span a single measure of fiddle music. These range from changing bow direction on every eighth note (The saw stroke) to just playing the entire measure with one bow.

If you wanted to consider bowing patterns that span two measures of fiddle music in 4/4 time with the bow potentially changing direction whenever an eighth note might fall, then the number would be 2 raised to the 15th power - or 32,768 patterns for the case where you start the first measure on a down bow. And, of course, another (actually the same) 32,768 for the case where you start the first measure on an up bow - for a grand total of 65,536 possible bowing patterns that span two measures of fiddle music in 4/4 time.

Regrettably, the math can't help us know which of these patterns are worth playing...

-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/23/2007:  22:18:32

OTJunky,




At some point I realized that
it was just math, but I'm not <that> good at it.

No, the math can't tell you which ones sound good,
but a couple more parameters really need to be added.

For instance, I really like patterns that start on a downstroke,
preferably a single stroke, and end on an upstroke that doesn't
have to be a single stroke.
Any such patterns with those two characteristics that
are of the same length can be substituted for one another
at will- a very useful feature, since you can substitute
one bowing for the other on the fly, and not have to worry
that all the subsequent bow directions will have to be
played <backwards> from how you practiced them.

I'm sure it would be possible to write a fiddle bowing generator
program for computer...
can you program too?

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

OTJunky - Posted - 07/24/2007:  13:49:42

quote:

---

fiddlepogo wrote:
I'm sure it would be possible to write a fiddle bowing generator
program for computer...
can you program too?

---

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/24/2007:  19:08:12

OTJunky,

Well,
you are probably right!

I can't think of anyone else in a better position
to decide it's not worth doing!



Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

dsreiner - Posted - 07/24/2007:  22:15:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Impressive it may be,
(I'll have to try it)
but it looks like:

1. A measure of backwards Nashville,
starting on the upstroke.
2. A measure of your #3 shuffle that
I call the "Unshuffle"
3. A full sequence of "Sawshuffle."

Did I get that right?

And no, that's not the bowing pattern I was thinking of.

Michael

---

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/25/2007:  00:56:01

Make that:

1. A <half> measure of backwards Nashville,
starting on the upstroke.
2. A <half> measure of your #3 shuffle that
I call the "Unshuffle"
3. A full sequence of "Sawshuffle."

Is that better?

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

dsreiner - Posted - 07/25/2007:  08:15:03

Well, it's accurate.

When I'm playing, though, I think in terms of the 6-6-4 division of the two measures. And the basic building block is u - D u D u .

Syncopatedly yours,

Dave



Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/25/2007:  16:25:44

It's funny how the exact same bowing pattern can
be broken down two different ways!
I think much of that is how you interpret the 3 note
upward slurs- do you tend to view them as entities unto
themselves, or as mere ways of gluing other patterns.
Or both, as seen from different angles.
Maybe that's part of what makes some people's heads
hurt when we talk about bowing!

But it's not like they weren't warned by the subject line....

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

OTJunky - Posted - 07/31/2007:  17:44:13

quote:

---

fiddlepogo wrote (an another thread)
But now you've got me intrigued...
Missouri bow? Is that another name
for Nashville Shuffle? (I noticed Allanadale used it
in the Christeson stuff)

---

Edited by - OTJunky on 08/01/2007 15:10:02

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/31/2007:  22:30:18

Heh, heh...
I guess I'm getting a taste of my own medicine...
my head hurts!

Missouri Bow is easy enough,
Texas Bow seems so contrary to all my bowing principles.
Rag Bow is not making sense at all,
and Georgia Bow seems super weird... I need to get out the fiddle to even make it make sense.
But who knows, in 10 years one of them may yet be my meat and potatoes bowing!

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

OTJunky - Posted - 07/31/2007:  23:10:37

If you want to see Alan Jabour talk about and demonstrate the Rag Bow, go here

memory.loc.gov/ammem/collectio...bour.html




-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

lazyjohn - Posted - 08/01/2007:  14:38:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsreiner

Kenny Baker uses a fair amount of standard bowings, especially:
saw stroke: d u d u d u d u
3 3 1 1: d - - u - - d u
Nashville shuffle (just to start some tunes): d - u d u - d u

But he also uses some less common longer slurs that reinforce melodic phrases:
Grey Eagle: 2 3 2 1 2 4 1 1: d - u - - d - u d - u - - - d u
Indian Killed a Woodchuck: 3 4 1 1 1 2 4: d - - u - - - d u d u - d - - -
Bluegrass in the Backwoods: 2 2 2 1 1: d - u - d - u d

... or cross bar lines...
Dry and Dusty: d - u d u - - d - u d u - d u d
Doc Harris the Fisherman: 1 2 1 1 1 2 - 6 2: d u - d u d u - - - - - - - d -

In slower pieces (mainly 3/4), Kenny phrases long bows that cross bar lines to group musical phrases. Listen to Festival Waltz and Lonesome Moonlight Waltz. He also slurs the long drawn-out notes in faster tunes, such as Flopareno.

In general, long bowers do use some standard patterns, but intersperse them with unusual tune-specific patterns that group phrases on one (or a few) bows. Their patterns are less regular, and they're more likely to start measures on an upbow.

As an experiment, take one of your favorite tunes and just keep a few of the down or upbows going until it feels right to break out of them. A fluid right hand helps a lot with long bowing.

Incidentally, the bowings in the Oak book on Kenny Baker (by David Brody) always struck me as pretty accurate. Of course, Kenny didn't always play the exact same bowings the times I've heard him.

Dave


Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

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Edited by - lazyjohn on 08/01/2007 14:48:43

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/01/2007:  14:48:44

OTJunky,

Very interesting video,
enjoyed it a lot (thanks!)
but I don't think he called it "Rag bow".
The very last thing he did reminds
me of what Dave Reiner lists as a ragtime
bowing pattern, but not so much like yours.
Actually, it just occurred to me- if you change
the second "D" to a "U" you have Dave Reiner's
sixth pattern, the one after what I call "sawshuffle"
and Jabbour <definitely> talks about that in the video.

Where did you get the term "Rag bow" for that-
do you remember?

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

OTJunky - Posted - 08/01/2007:  15:09:24

Nope Jabbour doesn't call it a "Rag bow" - so apparently Henry Reed didn't either....

I'd have picked up that name - along with the Georgia Bow name - in North Florida around 1975.

There was a festival held annually just outside Tallahassee and the local fiddlers were Bob Langston (Tallahassee), Max Tillman (South Georgia) and Henry Rutland (South Georgia and, I think, Georgia Slim's nephew) - all of them were really good players. Curly Fox came to one of these festivals as well.

Probably I picked up "Rag Bow" term from Curly Fox. And, if memory serves, the "Georgia Bow" tag came from Bob Langston.

The Rag Bow term, incidently comes from the fact that it works well on rags - Dill Pickle, Beaumont, etc.

But, as I said, these might be local regional terms that have no broader use.

quote:

---

fiddlepogo said:
Actually, it just occurred to me- if you change
the second "D" to a "U" you have Dave Reiner's
sixth pattern, the one after what I call "sawshuffle"
and Jabbour <definitely> talks about that in the video

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dsreiner - Posted - 08/01/2007:  15:56:34

quote:

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Georgia Bow
A bit more Syncopation
"d - u d - - u -" or "d - u d - - u d"
Again, accent whatever "d" you like.

-OTJ

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fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/01/2007:  16:05:02

Lazyjohn-
the numbers are an alternate way of
describing the bowing in terms of the length of the slur
related to a single stroke or note.
1= sawstroke or single stroke.
2= 2 note slur
3= 3 note slur

The bowing OTJunky and I were talking about
(that I call "Smoothshuffle" and he calls "Ragbow")
can be described as:
3-3-1-1
slur three notes down,
slur three notes up,
end with two single strokes, down up.

One thing that's confusing is that in the
D--u--D-u
method of describing it,
the dashes are actually slurred notes,
but with the numbers, the dashes just
separate the numbers and have no mathematical
significance.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

OTJunky - Posted - 08/01/2007:  16:14:57

quote:

---

dsreiner wrote:
Interesting version... I play the reverse for Georgia Bow:
"u - d u - - d u"

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dsreiner - Posted - 08/01/2007:  16:23:01

I find downbow accents easier, and they also permit easier (to me) brushing of a double stop. That's why I play Georgia shuffle as in this 2-measure example:

"U - D u U u D u" "U u D u U u D u"

I also hypothesize that the Georgia shuffle was invented by a lazy fiddler who was chording just the offbeats, using downbows only, and then couldn't be bothered to raise the bow, causing it to trail along the strings with an upbow. No evidence, but it seems plausible.

Dave

Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/01/2007:  19:35:59

At least one of my reasons is the same as Dave Reiner's:
Downstroke accents.

In the early '70s a bunch of the fiddlers that really influenced
me all had a similar bowing system <in that> they
all used primarily downstroke accents.
Playing around with it, it just seemed to make sense:
if you need to keep your wrist really limber, and
if part of the goal of fiddling well is using an economy
of effort (partly for the sake of endurance in long dances and jams) it only makes sense to have gravity do the work for you
in accenting notes. And since sawstroke normally
starts on a downstroke, and since sawstroke is a convenient
default bowing for difficult passages, a downstroke accent
system is going to dovetail marvelously with sawstroke.

Although I started with Nashville Shuffle very early, the amount
of effort it required seemed excessive for the results I got.
So for a long time I got away from it and from similar shuffles
that have two patterns that are mirror-images of each other,
going in the opposite directions.

Recently I have come back to those bowings, especially
what I call "Offset Shuffle" and am finding that it's not that
difficult to integrate with my more gravity based system.
I think the reason is because I reserve them for places
where I can do them in a full pattern so they end up the
same way as all my other patterns.

It is true that I am sensitive to changes in bow direction.
When I was a newbie fiddler I used to hate getting
"turned around" with the bow, and having to bow everything
backwards. I think it's possible with a shuffle like Nashville
to make the second pattern mimic the first,
but to try and make <all> your bowings in a specific tune
sound equally good in either direction is a tall order-
I think I'd have to practice most of the time to manage that!

I can also usually hear when other fiddlers get turned
around in their bowing- it doesn't sound as good, and
there's a drop in confidence and control that tips
me off that that's what's happened

So I am pretty consistent in using patterns that start on a downstroke and end on an upstroke, and therefore are
all interchangeable. For the rare occasion I accidentally
end on a downstroke, I have learned to make the next beginning
pattern a Georgia Shuffle starting with a 2 note upward slur.
Then I can get back into my normal patterns.

So you could say my approach is this:
I use a fairly small number of different shuffle patterns
that I know thoroughly, and know how they fit together.
I alternate between them to give the impression of variety,
but because I am nearly always using the same 5 or 6 patterns,
I've gotten them very much under control, which makes
the fiddling sound rhythmically confident... which in dance
fiddling is the whole point.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo