Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/233/4
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/30/2010: 13:51:53
Mike,
Keep in mind that ALL the sawstrokes have that same imbalance, the last two as well as the first three.
It can make sawshuffle, when used as a repeating pattern sound a bit like a train-
Chugga-chugg-woo-ooo-chugga,
chugga-chugg-woo-ooo-chugga!
And I don't think sounding like a train is necessarily bad for Old Time...
this is a slow train, chugging up a grade!!!
Like any pattern, too much of it would be a bit much, but it has nice drive,
and blends well with both smoothshuffle and syncoshuffle which can break it up or help
it conform to melodic variations.
I tend to limit my actual analysis to getting the pattern down to where you can repeat it.
Once you can repeat it, then you need to play with it, like a new toy, and see where it flexes, and what
you can make it do. And what you can make it do depends a lot on YOU, your bowing arm physiology, your bow-grip,
and your personality
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/30/2010: 14:19:49
Suddenly I seem to have gotten lost... now, today... I can't tell if my bow is even going up or down, let alone what else??????
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/30/2010: 15:12:49
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Keep in mind that ALL the sawstrokes have that same imbalance, the last two as well as the first three.
It can make sawshuffle, when used as a repeating pattern sound a bit like a train-
Chugga-chugg-woo-ooo-chugga,
chugga-chugg-woo-ooo-chugga!
OK, so to treat the last two sawstrokes as much like the first two sawstrokes as possible, I'd have to do one of these alternatives:
If I choose the FNE's to be 64th-notes (four tied FNE's per standard 16th-note), I'd get either this:
| |
| n v n |
| 5 2 5 4__4_4 5 3 |
| |
or this:
| |
| n v n |
| 5 2 5 4__4_4 6 2 |
| |
The second one has a slightly LARGER difference in time-value between the last two sawstrokes, and the first two sawstrokes. The first one has a slightly SMALLER difference in time-value between the last two sawstrokes, and the first two sawstrokes.
If I choose the FNE time-slice to be 1/24th of the measure (three tied FNE's per standard 16th-note), then I'd get either this:
| |
| n v n |
| 4 1 4 3__3_3 5 1 |
| |
or this:
| |
| n v n |
| 4 1 4 3__3_3 4 2 |
| |
Again, neither of these give exactly the same difference between the two sawstrokes for the first pair versus the last pair: they closely bracket the exactly equal case.
I doubt that I'd ever want to write out a whole tune with this method of capturing the timing subtleties, no more than anyone ever wants to transcribe a whole "swung-eighths" tune using triplets all over the place. But it would be useful in DESCRIBING (and clarifying) the timing subtleties, as a notation at the beginning of a transcription, just like is done when describing "swung eighths" in a standard music notation transcription. And if it is desired to determine the degree of imbalance for these modified-timing patterns, something like this is necessary.
Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 03/30/2010 15:15:28
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/30/2010: 15:35:06
Or, if you didn't mind giving the third sawstroke the same time-value as the upbowed FNE's (and a slightly smaller time-value than the first FNE), you could get this:
| |
| n v n |
| 5 3 4 4__4_4 5 3 |
| |
and you would then treat the first pair exactly like the last pair.
Or, with 32nd-note FNE's, you could do this:
| |
| n v n |
| 3 1 2 2__2_2 3 1 |
| |
That would give you a bigger difference in time-values for the first and second sawstrokes (and likewise for the last pair of sawstrokes).
Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 03/30/2010 15:57:43
fiddlejen - Posted - 04/01/2010: 17:15:56
What bowing pattern would work well with Woodchopper's Reel?
Since I got my new fiddle, it seems to matter more which way the bow is going... can't figure out whether that's because it's a better instrument, or possibly because it's more of "fiddle" set-up. (Not that my butterfly fiddle has any sort of classical set-up, but, Scottish & Irish styles are pervasive in this area.) But basically, since I got my new fiddle, I'm finding, bow direction seems to matter more.
Actually I want to say that "Bowing," in general, matters more. But that would be untrue, since to me "Bowing" refers to all sorts interesting things with tone & speed & ornaments & balance & etc -- and,this new fiddle is just great with all of that! But, I've got a basic handle on bowing-techniques. Whereas this fiddle also seems like it also wants to make shuffles & whatever other types of patterns sound great too... like, I need to intentially slur or not-slur... and that is totally Not how I've been playing for the last yeah-many years...
I have been off-n-on working on bowing patterns. Since it seemed quite helpful for some tunes. (Also seems to be the only way to produce the sound I think of as the fiddle music I danced to when I was a kid. There's a different flavor to contra music in New England.) But this wonderful new 5-string -- which plays far better than my other fiddle! -- seems to demand that I pay attention to my ups-&-downs.
So anyway... Woodchoppers was on my need-to-learn list, a long time ago, & I never quite got it, because it tangled me each time. Are there any good bowing suggestions?
rafa - Posted - 04/01/2010: 18:40:54
Yea, just keep fiddlin with it til it doesn`t tangle
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/01/2010: 21:48:31
I don't know the tune, but looking at the sheet music at
thesession.org/tunes/display/946
shows a couple of possible challenges.
Well, the first challenge isn't much of one.
The first part could be single stroked completely, since the quarter notes are paired and don't cause a direction change.
Or, the eighth notes before them could be put on quarter note slurs, to make the bowing for the first part more consistent.
In the second part however, the problem is that there is this single quarter note stuck in a bunch of eighth notes,
and that guarantees a direction change UNLESS you get tricky. (I'm guessing that's what's been getting you tangled each time) But you don't have to get very tricky.
Since the quarter note and the two eighth notes following forms half of a Nashville Shuffle, you make the four eighth notes before it the first part of a Nashville, and the problem quarter note plus the following two eighth notes the second half.
Or you could make it the first half of a Nashville Shuffle, and echo that with the second half of a Nashville slurred on top of the following eighth notes.
But that's just a preliminary analysis-
all that is very theoretical, since I haven't even PLAYED the tune yet!!!
There may be other ideas that occur based on how the tune feels played-
first, I have to find something decent to print out, like a good .pdf of it.
That notation at the session.org is teensy!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/01/2010 22:14:24
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 04/02/2010: 08:20:15
Yeah, those paired quarter-notes in the second half of quite a few of the measures don't fit most of Fiddlepogo's most commonly-used patterns, because most of those patterns end the measure with two fast notes. (In the 4/4 time shown, fast notes are 8th-notes...I suspect it's probably usually played as 2/4 time, with the fast notes being 16th-notes (four fast notes per foot-tap, instead of only two), but I haven't ever heard the tune).
So for those measures, you are probably restricted to an EVEN number of bow strokes for the first half of those measures: either four sawstrokes, or two 2-slurs, or a 1-3 pattern ("on-beat Georgia" (Fiddlepogo's "Unshuffle")).
The measures that DON'T have that final quarter note in the second half fit most of Fiddlepogo's patterns: sawshuffle, smoothshuffle, and syncoshuffle (but not his "hornpipe shuffle). The choice between those depends (to some extent) on the desired location of accents, and those aren't marked on the transcription. Also (at least for some fiddlers), the location of string-crossings can influence the choice to be made among all the patterns that fit the rhythm of the melody. These two factors likewise influence the choice to be made among the patterns that fit those measures that end in a quarter-note.
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 04/02/2010: 08:34:18
P.S.: There are also some measures that are ALL fast notes, and those open up many more possibilities. They are compatible with various off-set patterns, that slur across the bar lines. Those patterns can give a very different feel, that sometimes might be just what you're looking for. I don't know the tune, so I don't know if they would work well here or not.
Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 04/02/2010 08:35:18
JackJack - Posted - 04/02/2010: 17:46:31
quote:
Originally posted by dsreiner
<SNIP>--------
d u d u d u d u
Saw stroke (Basic back-and-forth bowing)
[Paddy on the Turnpike, Old Molly Hare]
d - U d u - D u
Nashville shuffle (Hoedown bowing, Cajun, and Country and Western sound. Accent on first of the short notes, shown in upper case.) With younger students, I call this the "ham - BUR - ger ham - BUR - ger" bowing.
[Katy Did, Uncle Herm's Hornpipe, Last of Callahan, Perrodin Two-Step]
d u - - d u - -
1-3-1-3 (Emphasizes beat more than offbeat -- not too common)
[Yew Piney Mountain, B part of Fisher's HP]
u - D u - - D u
(or really u - D u - - D u - - D u - - D u - - ... to cross bar lines)
Georgia shuffle (Same as 1-3-1-3, but with accent shifted to the offbeat. Put a slight accent, or mid-bow pulse, in the middle of each group of 3 on the up-bow. Downbows are accented because they have to go faster, and they're also a good place to put a double stop.)
[Old French, Cotton Patch Rag, 2-bar endings of tunes such as Devil's Dream, parts of Cooley's Reel]
d u D u - - D u
1-1-1-3-1-1 (Breaks up monotony of saw stroke, accent in middle of 3 tied notes. Like the middle of the Georgia shuffle. A very common approach in bluegrass, oldtime, and Irish playing. A few people call this "sawshuffle.")
[Cotton Patch Rag, Devil's Dream (e.g., 2nd measure)]
d - - u - - D u
3-3-1-1 (Smooth, but with Nashville shuffle feeling at end. Used for Irish criss-cross bowing)
[Done Gone, Sugar in the Gourd, Cotton Patch Rag, Gravel Walk (in Master Anthology of Fiddle Styles book)]
d u - d - u - d-1-2-2-2-1 (Swingy, jazzy across the beat)
[Florida Blues]
d - u - d - u -
2-2-2-2 (French Canadian, West Virginia bowing)
[The Rags, Reel du Diable, Three Forks of Cheat, Yew Piney Mountain]
d u d u d - u -
1-1-1-1-2-2
1-1-1-1-1-3
[Rye Straw, Susannah Gal]
Also 4-4 and 5-5-6 and various other smooth bowings...
------------ </SNIP>
Sorry if this has been asked answered already.
Are there slow and simple/up to speed sound files to these patterns? Or better yet, video? I learn best by ear and it would help me understand the timing involved.
Thanks.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/02/2010: 19:40:31
quote:
Originally posted by JackJack
quote:
Originally posted by dsreiner
<SNIP>--------
d u d u d u d u
Saw stroke (Basic back-and-forth bowing)
[Paddy on the Turnpike, Old Molly Hare]
d - U d u - D u
Nashville shuffle (Hoedown bowing, Cajun, and Country and Western sound. Accent on first of the short notes, shown in upper case.) With younger students, I call this the "ham - BUR - ger ham - BUR - ger" bowing.
[Katy Did, Uncle Herm's Hornpipe, Last of Callahan, Perrodin Two-Step]
d u - - d u - -
1-3-1-3 (Emphasizes beat more than offbeat -- not too common)
[Yew Piney Mountain, B part of Fisher's HP]
u - D u - - D u
(or really u - D u - - D u - - D u - - D u - - ... to cross bar lines)
Georgia shuffle (Same as 1-3-1-3, but with accent shifted to the offbeat. Put a slight accent, or mid-bow pulse, in the middle of each group of 3 on the up-bow. Downbows are accented because they have to go faster, and they're also a good place to put a double stop.)
[Old French, Cotton Patch Rag, 2-bar endings of tunes such as Devil's Dream, parts of Cooley's Reel]
d u D u - - D u
1-1-1-3-1-1 (Breaks up monotony of saw stroke, accent in middle of 3 tied notes. Like the middle of the Georgia shuffle. A very common approach in bluegrass, oldtime, and Irish playing. A few people call this "sawshuffle.")
[Cotton Patch Rag, Devil's Dream (e.g., 2nd measure)]
d - - u - - D u
3-3-1-1 (Smooth, but with Nashville shuffle feeling at end. Used for Irish criss-cross bowing)
[Done Gone, Sugar in the Gourd, Cotton Patch Rag, Gravel Walk (in Master Anthology of Fiddle Styles book)]
d u - d - u - d-1-2-2-2-1 (Swingy, jazzy across the beat)
[Florida Blues]
d - u - d - u -
2-2-2-2 (French Canadian, West Virginia bowing)
[The Rags, Reel du Diable, Three Forks of Cheat, Yew Piney Mountain]
d u d u d - u -
1-1-1-1-2-2
1-1-1-1-1-3
[Rye Straw, Susannah Gal]
Also 4-4 and 5-5-6 and various other smooth bowings...
------------ </SNIP>
Sorry if this has been asked answered already.
Are there slow and simple/up to speed sound files to these patterns? Or better yet, video? I learn best by ear and it would help me understand the timing involved.
Thanks.
Yes, check in my tunes section- I have a whole bunch of these played on an exercise based on June Apple in my tunes section... I think I have them all starting with "Shuffle Pattern or somesuch to bunch them together towards the end.
Aside from the standard names Sawstroke, Nashville Shuffle, and Georgia, I have given them names according to their characteristics, like Smoothshuffle.
As I've said previously, because you can earn hundreds of dollars at fiddling,
you might not want to spend it all in one place on an expensive video camera...
and the expensive kind would be the only kind that would give you both good enough sound and good enough video to be worthwhile.
JackJack - Posted - 04/03/2010: 10:51:04
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by JackJack
quote:
Originally posted by dsreiner
<SNIP>--------
d u d u d u d u
Saw stroke (Basic back-and-forth bowing)
[Paddy on the Turnpike, Old Molly Hare]
d - U d u - D u
Nashville shuffle (Hoedown bowing, Cajun, and Country and Western sound. Accent on first of the short notes, shown in upper case.) With younger students, I call this the "ham - BUR - ger ham - BUR - ger" bowing.
[Katy Did, Uncle Herm's Hornpipe, Last of Callahan, Perrodin Two-Step]
d u - - d u - -
1-3-1-3 (Emphasizes beat more than offbeat -- not too common)
[Yew Piney Mountain, B part of Fisher's HP]
u - D u - - D u
(or really u - D u - - D u - - D u - - D u - - ... to cross bar lines)
Georgia shuffle (Same as 1-3-1-3, but with accent shifted to the offbeat. Put a slight accent, or mid-bow pulse, in the middle of each group of 3 on the up-bow. Downbows are accented because they have to go faster, and they're also a good place to put a double stop.)
[Old French, Cotton Patch Rag, 2-bar endings of tunes such as Devil's Dream, parts of Cooley's Reel]
d u D u - - D u
1-1-1-3-1-1 (Breaks up monotony of saw stroke, accent in middle of 3 tied notes. Like the middle of the Georgia shuffle. A very common approach in bluegrass, oldtime, and Irish playing. A few people call this "sawshuffle.")
[Cotton Patch Rag, Devil's Dream (e.g., 2nd measure)]
d - - u - - D u
3-3-1-1 (Smooth, but with Nashville shuffle feeling at end. Used for Irish criss-cross bowing)
[Done Gone, Sugar in the Gourd, Cotton Patch Rag, Gravel Walk (in Master Anthology of Fiddle Styles book)]
d u - d - u - d-1-2-2-2-1 (Swingy, jazzy across the beat)
[Florida Blues]
d - u - d - u -
2-2-2-2 (French Canadian, West Virginia bowing)
[The Rags, Reel du Diable, Three Forks of Cheat, Yew Piney Mountain]
d u d u d - u -
1-1-1-1-2-2
1-1-1-1-1-3
[Rye Straw, Susannah Gal]
Also 4-4 and 5-5-6 and various other smooth bowings...
------------ </SNIP>
Sorry if this has been asked answered already.
Are there slow and simple/up to speed sound files to these patterns? Or better yet, video? I learn best by ear and it would help me understand the timing involved.
Thanks.
Yes, check in my tunes section- I have a whole bunch of these played on an exercise based on June Apple in my tunes section... I think I have them all starting with "Shuffle Pattern or somesuch to bunch them together towards the end.
Aside from the standard names Sawstroke, Nashville Shuffle, and Georgia, I have given them names according to their characteristics, like Smoothshuffle.
As I've said previously, because you can earn hundreds of dollars at fiddling,
you might not want to spend it all in one place on an expensive video camera...
and the expensive kind would be the only kind that would give you both good enough sound and good enough video to be worthwhile.
Thanks Michael! I found them.
fiddlejen - Posted - 04/03/2010: 17:25:15
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot
Also (at least for some fiddlers), the location of string-crossings can influence the choice to be made among all the patterns that fit the rhythm of the melody. These two factors likewise influence the choice to be made among the patterns that fit those measures that end in a quarter-note.
Oh yeah -- that's another question I keep wondering these patterns in general. Conceptutally speaking, are they supposed to be built around
avoiding string crossings -- or,
regardless of string crossings -- or, going blatanly out-of-the-way to include string crossings?
(Well that last choice would probably best describe the Irish style, so I'm assuming it's a "no" to option 3.)At the contra dance a week ago, a tune was played that I know pretty well, Spootiskerry. I've always played it with a Scottish or Irishy sound, but, the lead fiddler wasn't playing it that way. More like a swing or a rag maybe. Same notes, Very Different sound. Took me maybe a measure or so to catch that groove & join in... but ya know, I have no clue what I changed, whether it was a change in bowings, or whether the same bowing just different accents. No clue atall.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/03/2010: 22:01:28
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlejen
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot
Also (at least for some fiddlers), the location of string-crossings can influence the choice to be made among all the patterns that fit the rhythm of the melody. These two factors likewise influence the choice to be made among the patterns that fit those measures that end in a quarter-note.
Oh yeah -- that's another question I keep wondering these patterns in general. Conceptutally speaking, are they supposed to be built around avoiding string crossings -- or, regardless of string crossings -- or, going blatanly out-of-the-way to include string crossings? (Well that last choice would probably best describe the Irish style, so I'm assuming it's a "no" to option 3.)
Both.
Either/or.
Some fiddlers really don't like slurred string changes, and patterns CAN be a way of avoiding them. I tend to do that. I find when slurring a string crossing, there's a tendency to overemphasize or underemphasize notes in relation to each other.
It feels sort of like pushing a loaded shopping cart down an incline-
there's less control. It's like the momentum of the bow continuing in the same direction added to the momentum of changing strings causes an overemphasis.
Now I'm sure you could learn to compensate for that with a bunch of extra practice, but for some of us, avoiding string changes just works well.
However, I've experimented some lately with some patterns that are BASED on slurred string changes... basically taking a rocking passage like the beginning of Ragtime Annie, and slurring across the string change repeatedly.
I can see how it would sound kind of cool with more practice, and I also see how if you
could do that smoothly, it might act as an exercise that would smooth out ALL your
slurred string changes.
So who knows, maybe I'll give it a try.
One style of slurring common in raggy playing takes advantage of the tendency to overemphasize the second note of a slurred string change.
You start the slur on an unaccented note (or SNE) and end on an accented one.
And you PUSH into the second one to accent it.
(See the 7th pattern in Dave Reiner's first post in this thread-
the one he says works for Florida Blues.)
That COULD be what they were doing to Spootiskerry.... maybe.
quote:
At the contra dance a week ago, a tune was played that I know pretty well, Spootiskerry. I've always played it with a Scottish or Irishy sound, but, the lead fiddler wasn't playing it that way. More like a swing or a rag maybe. Same notes, Very Different sound. Took me maybe a measure or so to catch that groove & join in... but ya know, I have no clue what I changed, whether it was a change in bowings, or whether the same bowing just different accents. No clue atall.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/03/2010 22:06:12
OTJunky - Posted - 04/04/2010: 04:43:12
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlejen
Oh yeah -- that's another question I keep wondering these patterns in general. Conceptutally speaking, are they supposed to be built around avoiding string crossings -- or, regardless of string crossings -- or, going blatanly out-of-the-way to include string crossings? [i](Well that last choice would probably best describe the Irish style, so I'm assuming it's a "no" to option 3.)
FWIW, in my 40+ years of hanging around and backing up fiddlers across the South, I don't think I've ever encountered one that avoided slurred string crossings.
--OTJ
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 04/04/2010: 08:59:44
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlejen
[...] that's another question I keep wondering these patterns in general. Conceptutally speaking, are they supposed to be built around avoiding string crossings -- or, regardless of string crossings -- or, going blatanly out-of-the-way to include string crossings?
In the course of looking at lots of different transcriptions (in different styles, and of different fiddlers), to try and understand WHY they make various choices about where to put their slurs, I've found evidence of ALL of your alternatives! Some fiddlers avoid them like the plague, others don't like to slur certain string-crossings, but like other ones, others never consider it an issue at all, and others actively seek them out. In my own bowing, the jury is still out. But I THINK about the issue a lot.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/04/2010: 14:48:31
BTW, it may seem obvious to some, but if a fiddler leans heavily to sawstroke, they ARE avoiding slurred
string crossings to the degree they sawstroke, although that may not be the given reason for them sawstroking.
And sawstroking is common among "hornpipey" fiddlers.
And one of the things I noticed in field recordings of the old guys is that sawstroke
USED to be really much more prevalent than it is today.
It also used to be common among Northern Old Time fiddlers.
On the other hand, if someone is locked in ONE shuffle pattern, usually Nashville, and they literally do it ALL the time,
even when playing single strings,
well then, they HAVE to do a slurred string crossing to maintain the Nashville Pattern.
In my opinion, this kind of fiddling that's locked into Nashville all the time, single string or not,
is much more common among revival fiddlers.
When I listen to field recordings, I hear quite a few fiddlers who mix sawstroke and Nashville Shuffle.
And I think the tendency with this mixing was to use sawstroke for the notey parts of the tune where they were single noting,
and Nashville Shuffle on the droney parts.
Then there are drones, and tunings that make droning easier.
If you play a tune with notes on three strings, but drone constantly, I would guess you would reduce the
number of string crossings, both slurred and otherwise, by 1/3.
Maybe more, since a lot of fiddle tunes have a high part that's just on 2 strings, and a low part that's
just on two lower strings.
The result- both the complex hornpipey fiddlers (who tend to play in standard tuning and do more single string work)
AND the hoedown fiddlers who use tunings and lots of shuffles are actually often using techniques that reduce slurred
string crossings a LOT (or maybe completely). And ditto for fiddlers that sawstroke notey parts and shuffle
simple droney parts.
So if the techniques they are using avoid string crossings or slurred string crossings as a matter
of course, they're not going to TALK about avoiding slurred string crossings, since it's already a done deal.
bj - Posted - 04/04/2010: 16:12:11
I slur string crossings all the time. I do admit it's easier to do on a downbow than an upbow for some reason, maybe because gravity is helping you out. But I do them both ways. And I fiddle more hoedowns than not, so I don't know where Michael is coming up with this, especially since in my observation of some dang fine fiddlers it's rarely true:
quote:
AND the hoedown fiddlers who use tunings and lots of shuffles are actually often using techniques that reduce slurred
string crossings a LOT (or maybe completely). And ditto for fiddlers that sawstroke notey parts and shuffle
simple droney parts.
OTJunky - Posted - 04/04/2010: 17:51:24
quote:
Originally posted by bj
I slur string crossings all the time. I do admit it's easier to do on a downbow than an upbow for some reason, maybe because gravity is helping you out. But I do them both ways. And I fiddle more hoedowns than not, so I don't know where Michael is coming up with this, especially since in my observation of some dang fine fiddlers it's rarely true:
quote:
AND the hoedown fiddlers who use tunings and lots of shuffles are actually often using techniques that reduce slurred
string crossings a LOT (or maybe completely). And ditto for fiddlers that sawstroke notey parts and shuffle
simple droney parts.
I don't know where he gets it either...
--OTJ
Edited by - OTJunky on 04/04/2010 17:52:06
rafa - Posted - 04/04/2010: 18:31:36
Maybe a PATTERN thing
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/04/2010: 19:27:52
No, not really a pattern thing- maybe a <shortbow> fiddling thing, since in one sense
sawstroke isn't a "pattern".
Do you agree that 100% sawstroke has, by definition, no slurred string crossings???
Increase the proportion of sawstroke, and you've decreased the likelihood of slurred string crossings.
If you are playing 2 strings at a time, as so often happens in Old Time, stuff that would be a string crossing
(possibly a slurred one) isn't a string crossing anymore... there might be just a slight shift in bow angle to emphasize the melody,
but it doesn't really qualify as a string crossing.
So these two techniques cause you to avoid slurred string crossings whenever you use them,
even if you're not consciously trying to avoid them.
Obviously, there are many reasons to apply these two techniques, like tradition, the sound of it, etc.
But since we're talking about folk fiddling, I've noticed that folk music techniques are often just EASIER ways of doing
things... and I really think that for many fiddlers (especially those with substandard bows with poor balance)
slurred string crossings were NOT the easy way of doing things.... and in folk fiddling there is a bias toward easier techniques that not only sound good,
but tend to avoided unnecessary difficulties that demand lots of practice time.
Actually, there was an influence that I don't know where I get it from-
back in the '70s someone either told me or I read somewhere that Old Time fiddlers tended to avoid slurred string crossings.
It's been so long ago that the source is long forgotten. It did influence me though.
And while it's not very useful to not know the source, it's not like I came up with it out of thin air-
someone else saw it that way... in effect- they passed along a tradition to me!!!
There's a small possibility there might be statement in Miles Krassen's Appalachian Fiddle to that effect-
that WAS the only book I had at the time that talked about Appalachian fiddle style, and it WAS an influence
on me in a number of ways. Unfortunately, my copy is long gone so I can't check.
Now in the rare event I actually do a slurred string crossing, I find them easier to do on an UPBOW for some reason.
But it's not all an "ease of use" issue for me... there may be an esthetic thing going on- I LIKE percussive fiddling (which tends to be shortbow fiddling)
and I don't find slurred string changes a particularly percussive technique... rather its a way of avoiding a percussive bowing sound in favor of a smoother one.
Now in another tradition, Irish Trad, it's seems very likely to me that slurred string changes are much more common in that style (or family of styles) precisely because
they are trying to get a flowing, woodwind-like sound.
And the one example of a pattern I've seen given in Irish fiddling, the 3-3-1-1 pattern,
is alway shown as a way of doing slurred string crossings.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 04/04/2010 20:11:42
rcc - Posted - 04/04/2010: 22:22:19
Michael,
I think you're quite right in saying that slurring across strings may smooth out the sound.
More accurately, slurring gives you a smoother sound period assuming you can execute the slur well.
The reason to slur across strings is if you really want a smooth sound at a particular spot and it so happens that the melody line forces the slur to cross strings at that spot.
A percussive fiddler might want a slur in just a certain place is if the slur serves to contrast an otherwise percussive sounding tune, release tension towards the ends of a passage, or just break things up so the tune isn't constantly percussive.
- Ray
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/04/2010: 23:23:46
quote:
Originally posted by rcc
Michael,
I think you're quite right in saying that slurring across strings may smooth out the sound.
More accurately, slurring gives you a smoother sound period assuming you can execute the slur well.
The reason to slur across strings is if you really want a smooth sound at a particular spot and it so happens that the melody line forces the slur to cross strings at that spot.
A percussive fiddler might want a slur in just a certain place is if the slur serves to contrast an otherwise percussive sounding tune, release tension towards the ends of a passage, or just break things up so the tune isn't constantly percussive.
- Ray
Good post, Ray.
"Assuming you can execute the slur well.", you said.
A VERY pertinent observation.
Well, after my last post
I recognized that I have some kind of bias against slurred string changes,
and I wanted to pinpoint the source of that bias, so
I did an experiment.
First I played the first part of Durangs sawstroked, like normal.
THEN I did the entire thing with 2-note (2 SNE) slurs which forces a repeated slurred string change.
And the difference is amazing.
One second I sound like I know how to play the thing,
the next, it sounds like someone right on the border between
beginner and intermediate has taken over the fiddle-
it's as if about 20 years of fiddling experience
has VANISHED. Now, that is part of what I feel when I do a slurred string change-
a sudden decrease in competency!!!
And THAT is a STRONG disincentive to doing them, especially when dropping a well polished alternative pattern in at the same point will take care of the problem with no decrease in apparent competency.
Now, I thinks to meself...
WHY???
Is it because I lack a certain kind of motor coordination??? Mebbe.
I tend towards clumsy, especially in large body motions.
Or is is simply that I've neglected slurred string changes so much
that they've gotten really weak?
I lean towards the first idea, however, since the second is also a distinct possibility,
I think I'm going to continue practicing Durang's with slurred string changes,
kind of like I do with new shuffles on June Apple... I'm going to use Durang's as a test bed, an exercise for the slurred string changes. And PERHAPS they will get to the point where I get so comfortable with them that they magically start appearing in tunes, or maybe I'll stop trying so hard to replace them with alternative bowings when they come up.
One of the keys seems to be that when slurred string changes are done that way, they
don't produce little circles like sawstroking that part of Durang's does-
they produces figure 8's. And it seems that just like practicing little circles was part
of getting my direction change string changes down pat, doing these figure 8's may help me with slurred string changes.
fiddlejen - Posted - 04/05/2010: 16:49:21
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Then there are drones, and tunings that make droning easier.
If you play a tune with notes on three strings, but drone constantly, I would guess you would reduce the
number of string crossings, both slurred and otherwise, by 1/3.
Maybe more, since a lot of fiddle tunes have a high part that's just on 2 strings, and a low part that's
just on two lower strings.
So... drones. Drones meaning, drones, or drones meaning double-stops too?
(Seems like a lot of work to figure out lots of double stops just to get the bowing easier... but there again, perhaps that's just the Irish-Scottishy influences I've picked up... but do pattern-droning-fiddlers typically just drone an open string, or have they figured out / just naturally know which double-stops to use?)
rcc - Posted - 04/05/2010: 20:30:25
Both -- open string drones and chords.
People that play on two strings or more tend to do that to make the sound richer and more complex. Playing on multiple stirngs can also make the rhythm more complex.
I don't know that I'd call it easier, though. I find playing well on two strings a lot harder than playing well on one string.
I think the above applies to playing on two+ strings in general regardless of whether you're a pattern fiddler or not. (I'm in the "not a pattern fiddler camp myself.)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/05/2010: 22:15:27
I think playing on two is harder only if you think it is, or if you are used to playing one string at a time.
It is definitely different.
When I first picked up a fiddle, it seemed easiest to me to play droned melodies on the G, D, and A strings.
The first tune/song I played on fiddle was "Old Dan Tucker"- with drones!
Obviously, I had no classical training, and I didn't really want any.
So I came at the fiddle from a very different angle.
Playing two strings at once is easy in a way, since it kind of locks you into a certain angle.
Playing single strings, you have the freedom to play the string at different angles, until you suddenly run out of freedom and accidentally touch another string.
So playing constantly on two strings precludes a lot of sloppiness.
And if you do it constantly, you also get used to using the right amount of bow pressure.
In effect, the hard part isn't playing on two strings, it's shifting back and forth to an intermediate angle, and to a greater amount of pressure required for two strings, once you are accustomed to playing mostly single strings.
Also, if you play constantly on two strings at a time, that means you are only holding the bow at 3 different angles, as opposed to four angles for single string work and 7 angles for the two combined.
And the two most extreme angles are not as extreme as the angles required for playing a G string alone, or an E string alone. Since the angles are closer to horizontal, gravity tends to work on them more subtely,
whereas if you play a single note on the low G string , or a single note on the E string, you may have to work harder to control the pull of gravity on the bow.
So I can see lots of ways how playing drones all the time is physically easier to do.
Jen, I am mostly talking about drones here. I find droning to be fairly easy, partly because the drone acts as a built in intonation aid.
To this day, when I first pick up the fiddle on any given day, I usually warm up by playing something with drones so I can "tune" my finger positions.
Double stops in the true sense are much harder, since you don't have an open string fo use as a reference.
rcc - Posted - 04/06/2010: 01:01:43
I beg to differ, Michael.
If you play at the same angle all the time with two strings, you lock yourself into the same sound coming out of the two strings. The precise sound depends on your choice of angle of course.
One key to making two string playing sound interesting is to control the volume of one string relative to the other by intentionally varying the angle of the bow. This allows you to bring out the low string, the high string or make both equally strong. This also requires fairly precise control since an angle change that's too large will sound only one string. Whereas if you're playing on only one string, you can vary your angle a fair bit and be ok.
Although I should point out that improving control of your bow angle can help single string playing as well, particularly string crossings. A string crossing can be easier if you adjust the angle of the bow as you play so that you only have to make a small angle change when you cross the strings instead of a bigger one.
Another aspect to two-string playing is to know when to play on two strings and when to play on one. And if you transition between playing one string and two strings quickly and frequently, you're starting down the path of bow-rocking. The study of which I'll testify can easily consume years of your life :-).
Pressure by the way should be a non-issue. You want to keep it pretty close to the same so that you can get the same volume out regardless of the number of strings you're on. You want to use your bow to control volume, not the # of strings you're playing.
I should mention that while some of this stuff are tips I picked up from good OT musicians, this also pretty fundamental classical technique as well.
Well, not the bow-rocking :-) but I stumbled on the concepts of controlling bow angle to make string crossings easier from a book on classical technique.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/06/2010: 01:43:19
quote:
Originally posted by rcc
I beg to differ, Michael.
If you play at the same angle all the time with two strings, you lock yourself into the same sound coming out of the two strings. The precise sound depends on your choice of angle of course.
One key to making two string playing sound interesting is to control the volume of one string relative to the other by intentionally varying the angle of the bow. This allows you to bring out the low string, the high string or make both equally strong. This also requires fairly precise control since an angle change that's too large will sound only one string. Whereas if you're playing on only one string, you can vary your angle a fair bit and be ok.
Although I should point out that improving control of your bow angle can help single string playing as well, particularly string crossings. A string crossing can be easier if you adjust the angle of the bow as you play so that you only have to make a small angle change when you cross the strings instead of a bigger one.
Another aspect to two-string playing is to know when to play on two strings and when to play on one. And if you transition between playing one string and two strings quickly and frequently, you're starting down the path of bow-rocking. The study of which I'll testify can easily consume years of your life :-).
Pressure by the way should be a non-issue. You want to keep it pretty close to the same so that you can get the same volume out regardless of the number of strings you're on. You want to use your bow to control volume, not the # of strings you're playing.
I should mention that while some of this stuff are tips I picked up from good OT musicians, this also pretty fundamental classical technique as well.
Well, not the bow-rocking :-) but I stumbled on the concepts of controlling bow angle to make string crossings easier from a book on classical technique.
I recognize and agree with everything you're saying- as advanced techniques.
But I remember back to when I was a beginner, droning was easier, because it was just three angles. And I'm convinced that that's part of the lure of cross tuning-
it allows more drone playing.
It's true that playing the drone at the same volume as the melody note is a flaw,
but it's a minor flaw compared to bad intonation, and the drones help improve intonation.
And sometimes when I listen to field recordings, I hear some old fiddle doing basically what I did at the beginning- constant drones, and really not too much in the way of emphasizing one over the other. Traditional fiddling CAN be simple... or it can be complex.
Once you have control over the 3 two-string bow angles, then you can learn the single string positions on either side. Once you get those 7 bow angles under control,
THEN you can get variations, like a slight shift on a drone to soften it in relation to the melody, or picking a single string angle that's skating closer to the two string angle so as to make a quicker string change.
But my point was simply that it's possible to start on double strings and then shift to single strings, since I did it myself, and having done it, I can't see anything that's inherently harder about it that going the more common route of single string to double string playing. As long as you keep things simple, it's easy!
Wait, yeah... there's one thing that's harder...
to play drones effectively, you have to master the technique of noting the melody string a little to the side so you don't mute the drones.
So there's a bit of a trade-off going on-
a little more left hand complexity in exchange for a bit more bowing arm simplicity.
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 04/06/2010: 08:53:51
In Brad Leftwich's 1st tape/DVD, his first tune ("Shortnen Bread") is played almost entirely by constantly bowing just the A and E strings, but only fingering one string AT A TIME (no "doublestops"). I found that difficult at first, because I just naturally wanted to always change the bowing angle whenever I changed the string I was finguring. (I.e., when my fingering went to a lower string, I automatically wanted to BOW a lower string). But once I realized that the bowing angle could be completely constant, even though the fingering was going back and forth between the two strings, the bowing became very easy and very simple.
In that first tune, Brad was teaching only sawstrokes, so slurred string crossings weren't an issue. But Fiddlepogo is right that, when you are constantly bowing just two strings, with a constant bow angle, the whole issue of slurred string crossings just disappears, for ANY pattern of slurs. Even the concept of "the drone" gets fuzzy, because when the fingering is hopping back and forth between those two strings, the "drone" is also constantly (and automatically) changing, from above the melody to below the melody, and back.
I think this situation crops up a LOT in some styles of fiddling. In the bluegrass version of "Old Joe Clark" that I learned long ago, one of the two parts was transcribed as being constantly bowed on the top two strings, but with the fingering hopping around between those two strings. (And, as I recall, the pattern was mostly Nashville). When I first saw that transcription, I thought "Wow...that's complicated". But it is actually SIMPLER. And I think some of the oldtimers started out that way because it also helps with intonation.
Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 04/07/2010 07:35:28
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 04/06/2010: 09:10:39
I should also have mentioned that, in his 1st video, Brad also teaches a bow-rocking technique that is almost the exact opposite idea from the "constant bowing angle" technique. The idea is that you can be fingering on just one string (one of the middle strings), while alternating between the higher string and the lower string for the drone.
That was also initially hard for me, again because I tended to link what my two hands were doing.
Those two techniques are almost exactly opposite ideas, but they share one thing in common: they both require you to start using your two hands more independently.
rcc - Posted - 04/06/2010: 23:24:36
Yes, getting the hands to work independenty is a big step forward. It's certainly the key to some of the stuff I've been working on recently.
As for two-string playing, I think double string playing is harder for the typical beginner for the sole reason that you have to keep your bow angle more constant for the length of the bow stroke. With a single string, you can vary that angle a fair bit and not get into trouble. With two strings, a slight variance in angle changes the sound a lot or causes one of the strings to lose contact with the bow.
Playing on two strings is actually a good training method for teaching yourself to hold a constant bow angle since you can more easily hear the results of changing the angle.
Another such training technique is to play on the bridge itself between the two strings. The objective is to draw full bow strokes and make as little sound as possible ... other than the sound of the bow hair scraping along the wood.
Either way, both of these help you learn to keep a constant bow angle because it's fairly easy to hear when you vary it.
bj - Posted - 07/30/2010: 08:33:12
The HumbledyBump Monster is wielding a huge can opener on a huge can of worms . . .
fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/30/2010: 10:48:23
UH-OH!!!!
A BOWING THREAD!!!!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/30/2010: 10:53:49
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
The Who...rocks.
Maybe...
but Tommy Jarrell rocked the BOW!!!
(on topic save!!!
)
Bluegrassified - Posted - 07/30/2010: 13:38:21
Holy Crap! You guys are scaring this new comer to the fiddle to death! LOL! 8 months in and the more I progress the deeper I dig and the more I realize just how much I've got to learn! Great info, just too much at once! I'll keep trying and experimenting. Wish that first list had audio example of each one! Now THAT would be awesome!
Teufelhunden54 - Posted - 07/30/2010: 14:28:33
Now you know why fiddle is associated with the Devil. (teufel).
bj - Posted - 07/30/2010: 14:32:35
quote:
Holy Crap! You guys are scaring this new comer to the fiddle to death!
That was why I posted the can o' worms warning.
ChickenMan - Posted - 07/30/2010: 15:06:36
quote:
Originally posted by Bluegrassified
Holy Crap! You guys are scaring this new comer to the fiddle to death! LOL! 8 months in and the more I progress the deeper I dig and the more I realize just how much I've got to learn! Great info, just too much at once! I'll keep trying and experimenting. Wish that first list had audio example of each one! Now THAT would be awesome!
fiddlepogo has several examples of bowing patterns on his music page.
Don't be afraid, just aware. The fiddle is just so much more involved that those fretted/picked instruments.
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 07/30/2010: 15:08:03
I hear that Pete Townsend (from the Who) has picked up the fiddle. Uhm...I'm guessing he'll smash a few along the way. I did.
WoodshopFiddler - Posted - 07/30/2010: 15:51:23
I practice perfectly random bowings but I do it in a predictable pattern. I can't break out of this cycle.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/30/2010: 18:26:28
Woodshopfiddler, I think i might be doing the same thing. I keep a Down ud UP du groove going and then jump in and out of that, but have to get back to the shuffle for pivot points, begininngs and endings... or something like that.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/30/2010: 19:10:48
quote:
Originally posted by WoodshopFiddler
I practice perfectly random bowings but I do it in a predictable pattern. I can't break out of this cycle.
Now THAT, to me, puts my problems with anywhichway bowing in a nutshell.
Of course, now I have to get it out of the nutshell and complicate things.. (you know me!)
BJ... get your aspirin out!!!
Oh right.. yeah...
WHITE WILLOW BARK!!!
(white willow bark is the original natural source for salicylic acid, the active ingredient in aspirin.)
Folks want to be free, so they just bow however it feels right.
BUT, the nature of fiddling is that instead of whipping this leetle piece of plastic, celluloid, or even
(gasp!) tortoiseshell about, you're whipping this long and fairly heavy piece of wood, fiberglass, or carbon fiber back and forth. It's tiresome, and when you get tired, you follow the path of least resistance.
Which leads you into a ... RUT. And, because each bowstroke is dependent on the one before it as to it's direction, it's not easily repairable if something ain't right. If you add ONE extra bowstroke, the direction of
EVERYTHING downstream changes. So now, you don't have a single corrected phrase to practice and get smooth, no, you've got to re-practice EVERYTHING after the added bowstroke!!!
This ALSO tends to lead to NOT experimenting, because changing stuff leads to such unpredictable results. So, the irony... by aiming for TOTAL freedom, you end up in the exact opposite.
There's probably a political lesson to be gleaned from that, but we can't go there, can we???
In contrast, downbowing (in the sense of starting on a downstroke and ending on an upstroke)
makes whole parts of the fiddle tune into segments that don't change the bowing of the other parts.
If you then get into downbowing PATTERNs, where each part starts on a downstroke and ends on an upstroke, every eight note segment is an independent, modular segment that can be modified
(as long as it starts on a downstroke, ends on an upstroke) without changing stuff downstream AT ALL.
It requires more discipline at first (you have to say NO to about half the bowing possibilities... or is it 2/3???) but the result is much more actual freedom and flexibility in phrasing a tune.
Last night, I was going through my five bows to see if I could find a better match for my main fiddle now that I've tweaked it some more (see blog for gory details if you dare...) and I noticed, that one bow naturally had me bowing tunes with a Sawshuffle, and another bow begged to be used for Offset Nashvilles as the main shuffle. And this took place without planning, without thinking... until after I'd already done it , then I went "What was that that happened with the bowing???".
fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/30/2010: 19:49:08
quote:
Originally posted by Bluegrassified
Holy Crap! You guys are scaring this new comer to the fiddle to death! LOL! 8 months in and the more I progress the deeper I dig and the more I realize just how much I've got to learn! Great info, just too much at once! I'll keep trying and experimenting. Wish that first list had audio example of each one! Now THAT would be awesome!
Just take it one step at a time, or rather one shuffle at a time!!!
Many old timers developed an appealing style base on one or two patterns (and I'm including
sawstroke as a basic pattern)
If you can find two that float yer boat, and the other ones don't, no need to go any farther.
It can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.
Generally, the patterns with traditional names are the best place to start:
Sawstroke, Nashville Shuffle, and Georgia Shuffle.
Even many Bluegrass fiddlers go no farther than those three, but with the addition
of Double Shuffle aka Hokum Bowing.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 07/30/2010: 20:11:12
I'll take an aspirin and check back in the morning!
WoodshopFiddler - Posted - 07/31/2010: 13:12:28
Let me explain myself further.
When I learn a tune I will start out by sawstroking through it, first starting downbow then starting upbow then maybe going back to downbow and I don't, at this point, have any idea at all how I may want to bow this particular tune. But after a few times of doing this certain "patterns" emerge. These are bowing patterns that I have learned such as Georgia Shuffle, Nashville Shuffle, etc, etc, etc (you get the point). Now, am I using these particular bowings because I have a NEED to have a prepackaged bowing system for each tune or part of a tune? No. I use these patterns because, quite frankly, they make it easier for me to bow a tune and get the feel I want.
All that being said, I may bow any particular tune a little differently every time I play it. Why? Because I may add a note here, take out a note there, throw in an ornament that gets my bow turned around or one of any number of other things including just plain ol' screwing up part of the tune. But I do know, somewhere in the depths of my musical subconscious that when I get to "that" point in the tune then I want to be grabbing a big downbow or I want to make sure that I am upbow when I get "here" so that I can slur those 3 notes in an upbow.
There are some tunes I play, however, that just lend themselves to predictable patterns. East Tennessee Blues is a good example. I play the first half of the A part using strictly the Nashville Shuffle. Is it the best way to bow it? Heck if I know but it certainly works for me.
Therefore, I practice random bowings in predictable patterns and I don't know if I really want to break out of this cycle because it works for me.
ChickenMan - Posted - 08/04/2010: 11:06:35
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
I hear that Pete Townsend (from the Who) has picked up the fiddle. Uhm...I'm guessing he'll smash a few along the way. I did.
He's got such severe hearing loss that I can't imagine it will be easy for him.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/04/2010: 11:46:20
quote:
Originally posted by WoodshopFiddler
Let me explain myself further.
When I learn a tune I will start out by sawstroking through it, first starting downbow then starting upbow then maybe going back to downbow and I don't, at this point, have any idea at all how I may want to bow this particular tune. But after a few times of doing this certain "patterns" emerge. These are bowing patterns that I have learned such as Georgia Shuffle, Nashville Shuffle, etc, etc, etc (you get the point). Now, am I using these particular bowings because I have a NEED to have a prepackaged bowing system for each tune or part of a tune? No. I use these patterns because, quite frankly, they make it easier for me to bow a tune and get the feel I want.
All that being said, I may bow any particular tune a little differently every time I play it. Why? Because I may add a note here, take out a note there, throw in an ornament that gets my bow turned around or one of any number of other things including just plain ol' screwing up part of the tune. But I do know, somewhere in the depths of my musical subconscious that when I get to "that" point in the tune then I want to be grabbing a big downbow or I want to make sure that I am upbow when I get "here" so that I can slur those 3 notes in an upbow.
There are some tunes I play, however, that just lend themselves to predictable patterns. East Tennessee Blues is a good example. I play the first half of the A part using strictly the Nashville Shuffle. Is it the best way to bow it? Heck if I know but it certainly works for me.
Therefore, I practice random bowings in predictable patterns and I don't know if I really want to break out of this cycle because it works for me.
Some common ground in our approaches, some things different.
The thing is, just as you find East Tennessee Blues lending itself to Nashville Shuffle,
the more shuffles you have gotten down pat, the more places you find that are like that.
I find passages all the time that really suit Syncoshuffle, and other shuffles too.
So much of my approach is just doing what you do with East Tennessee Blues,
but with a greater variety of shuffles, which allows me to do it in more places in more tunes.
And it's definitely about getting the feel and making the bowing easier.
There is "working for me" and "working for me".
There is a kind of "working" where it gets you through the tune- barely.
I use random bowing (but also a lot of sawstroke) when I first learn a tune, especially
if I'm reading from notation. And song airs, waltzes, and jigs get bowed pretty randomly.
So if I get turned around in my bowing, I CAN make it work.... sort of, kind of.
But it doesn't sound CONFIDENT during that part, and often, the tone suffers a bit.
As I get to know a tune, I try to pare down the truly random and "turn-around-able" parts to a minimum,
because these are the parts most likely to leave me sounding like I'm "justing barely hanging in there" rather than confident. And I do that by inserting shuffles that I feel TRULY fit the melody. Now I know that SOUNDS like the tunes are getting static and rigid, but in actual fact, that doesn't seem to happen-
I can change the phrasing, either by using the same bowing and phrasing that bowing differently, or by swapping out compatible shuffles without even thinking about it.
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/04/2010: 11:56:23
Fiddlepogo and Reiner taught me Georgia shuffle. I use it in tons of places. I don't know how those of you who do not know it, or other patterns, can live with yourselves. Not knowing these shuffles is like not using "be" verbs in English. You might still able to communicate, but you will limiting yourself.
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
