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tonyelder - Posted - 02/10/2013: 00:41:11
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Hey, I guess I can't help it... I'm indelibly imprinted with the Old Time sound of the fiddlers I saw in the 1970s.
That explains a lot. But, does that mean - everyone should see and hear things the same way you do?
As I explained earlier - Who played it and when they played it, is not the prerequisite for the tunes I want to learn. I do listen - I do not ignore it. What they did is a filter and I do want to honor it, but... playing things exactly like them is just not at the top of the list of my priorities. I will learn and play the version of the tune that I like the best - by whoever that might be.
Let me go a step further. I think David Bragger can play circles around most every recording of the old guys I've heard. He's all aces. To you, that may only reveal my ignorance. Fine! So be it.
And I'm not expecting anyone to think like I do or agree... much less everyone. Why should I care?
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/10/2013 00:56:24
tonyelder - Posted - 02/10/2013: 03:37:39
And - now - let me go another step, even further:
Here's Johnson Gals with a pattern bower:
youtu.be/RQKYw5IZSNU
Is the fiddler (Charlie Hunter) any good? HECK YEAH he's good!!! Good music is good! I was there - front row - third from the end - at 48 seconds - green shirt. That's me!
So who is the best then?
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What foOoOoOL---ISH---NESS!!!! 1ST DEGREE - FOOLISHNESS!!!!
WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A "WINNER"? 
Why can't we just stop the foolishness and admit it: "those fiddlers are great!" We only wish we could be that good...
mumble, mumble , mumble.....
tonyelder - Posted - 02/10/2013: 03:50:02
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
The Tallboys fiddler does a very convincing job of getting their sound... is he bowing it precisely the way the Leake County fiddler did??? We may never know. It DOES sound good though, and in the absence of any videos of the Leake County Revelers, that may be the best that can be done.
Why does that matter?
I'm not trying to be smart here. But this is probably at the heart of our differences.
Why should it matter? What difference does it make???????
OTJunky - Posted - 02/10/2013: 05:27:11
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What foOoOoOL---ISH---NESS!!!! 1ST DEGREE - FOOLISHNESS!!!!
WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A "WINNER"?
Why can't we just stop the foolishness and admit it: "those fiddlers are great!" We only wish we could be that good...
mumble, mumble , mumble.....
So here's a greater mystery.
You clearly have a substantial passion for old time fiddling. And judging from the clips you've posted you already know the fiddlers who play it the way you like. We've similar tastes in that regard.
So why spend all this time and energy debating pogo and idle who have different ideas about how to approach fiddling - and may even have different ideas about what kind of fiddling they want to do?
Is it that you're not yet confident in your own approach; or that you're trying to save their souls (another great Southern U.S. tradition); or is it just the engineer in you that believes everybody has to agree on some underlying "principles"?
--OTJ
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/10/2013: 05:54:35
In my amateurish back porch quasi-wsdom, I would say the most important thing s to do whatever it takes to get your heart and soul to come through those f holes intact! I think that's the real struggle. This is why I despise patterns...but then my bow gets tripped up and keeps my f holes from producing...and this is why I think I might get use from familiarizing myself with patterns. But each person must find their own way.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/10/2013: 07:22:36
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
No.
Picking out and focusing on single goals for improvement of technique has worked very well for me over the years.
This is especially true of bowing technique.
Trying to do everything all at once is a GOOD recipe for mediocrity.
And... it occurred to me-
do you REALLY want "complete bowing mastery"???
Or do you just want to kid yourself that you have it.
Try going through the patterns at the beginning of the thread.
If they are hard to do when you are deliberately trying to do them,
don't think you'll just spontaneously do them in a tune.
And if you can't do them, backwards and forwards, then you've proved that you
DON'T have "complete bowing mastery". Because "complete bowing mastery" implies mastery of ALL bowing techniques, EVERYWHERE!!!
Now ME, I KNOW I don't have complete bowing mastery- because I can only do some of them, and those forwards (downbowing). But most of the ones I DO know, I have enough mastery (or control) of, so that I can PHRASE them.
To me, that's really the ultimate goal- every technique you learn and use has to be mastered to the point of making them sound musical by phrasing them. I would rather know a very small subset of the bowing techniques available, and have mastery over THOSE, than knowing a gazillion techniques that are only barely under control.
Playing things backwards and forwards doesnt lead to mediocrity, it leads to complete bowing mastery. And bowing backwards is not always hard, its just hard until you get used to it. And i know I do it tunes spontaneiously now. I dont claim to have complete bowing mastery, but its a good goal. And i can phrase just fine forward and backward. You really should do it more often.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/10/2013: 07:31:31
Pogo. would you actually advise people to avoid practicing your patterns backwards and forwards?
IdleHands - Posted - 02/10/2013: 07:35:10
I just see the whole directional bias thing as a crippling self fulflilling prophecy, if you only train to AVOID backward bowing, of course you will always be SO HARD and UNREALISTIC. Im not even against patterns, im just against a catalog that avoids all the equally valid mirror image patterns or ones that start and end in the same direction, and only need to be chained back to back with their mirror image pattern to be fully functional and useful.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/10/2013: 07:38:05
And pogo, if you want to see who has better control and phrasing and overall goodness, Im still waiting for you to engage in that fiddle contest.
tonyelder - Posted - 02/10/2013: 10:33:39
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
So here's a greater mystery.
You clearly have a substantial passion for old time fiddling. And judging from the clips you've posted you already know the fiddlers who play it the way you like. We've similar tastes in that regard.
So why spend all this time and energy debating pogo and idle who have different ideas about how to approach fiddling - and may even have different ideas about what kind of fiddling they want to do?
Is it that you're not yet confident in your own approach; or that you're trying to save their souls (another great Southern U.S. tradition); or is it just the engineer in you that believes everybody has to agree on some underlying "principles"?
--OTJ
Repent OTJ!!! ...and believe in the underlying principles.
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/10/2013 10:43:36
OTJunky - Posted - 02/10/2013: 11:08:10
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
Repent OTJ!!! ...and believe in the underlying principles.
Good luck then...
--OTJ
tonyelder - Posted - 02/10/2013: 11:35:15
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
Repent OTJ!!! ...and believe in the underlying principles.
Good luck then...
--OTJ
I understand your point.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/10/2013: 14:48:19
Yes, this is very much about underlying principles: should we face difficulties and become stronger through doing so or should we develop elaborate systems: of avoidance?
Edited by - IdleHands on 02/10/2013 14:56:05
Carter - Posted - 02/10/2013: 17:16:28
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
Yes, this is very much about underlying principles: should we face difficulties and become stronger through doing so or should we develop elaborate systems: of avoidance?
More offensive than usual.
I should elaborate... In short: Learning an instrument at all is already a huge difficulty that will make you stronger.
Edited by - Carter on 02/10/2013 17:20:59
tonyelder - Posted - 02/10/2013: 17:38:32
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
So who is the best then?
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What foOoOoOL---ISH---NESS!!!! 1ST DEGREE - FOOLISHNESS!!!!
WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A "WINNER"?
Why can't we just stop the foolishness and admit it: "those fiddlers are great!" We only wish we could be that good...
mumble, mumble , mumble.....
I own this - what I said may have been ok, but the way I said it was excessive and unnecessary.
I need to take a break.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/10/2013: 19:15:36
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
And - now - let me go another step, even further:
Here's Johnson Gals with a pattern bower:
youtu.be/RQKYw5IZSNU
Is the fiddler (Charlie Hunter) any good? HECK YEAH he's good!!! Good music is good! I was there - front row - third from the end - at 48 seconds - green shirt. That's me!
So who is the best then?
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What foOoOoOL---ISH---NESS!!!! 1ST DEGREE - FOOLISHNESS!!!!
WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A "WINNER"?
Why can't we just stop the foolishness and admit it: "those fiddlers are great!" We only wish we could be that good...
mumble, mumble , mumble.....
Because ultimately it's all a matter of taste... and yeah, that's a bit foolish.... to my musical palate, pattern downbowing "tastes" better. Back when I could even EAT things with barbecue sauce on them (Allergies..), I tried barbecue sauce on tuna in a sandwich... I really thought it tasted good, and a number of people thought it was gross. They couldn't convince me, and I couldn't convince them... no they wouldn't even TRY it. (But if you come to hard times, and there's nothing in you cupboard but tuna fish and barbecue sauce, you SHOULD try it!) I think I did get one daring soul to try it, and he did agree with me... if you're sick of the tuna taste, and the slime of mayonnaise is getting to be a bit much, it REALLY does the trick.
As they say "There is no accounting for taste".
One thing I noticed especially during the first couple of years of fiddling, is that in order to wrest good sound out of that very difficult instrument, you have to develop a very discerning, discriminating and yea, verily, PICKY ear!
What you are doing is sorting the sounds and tones you get... THIS is music... THAT is noise. This is good- want that, that is bad- don't want that. I found the rather unpleasant upshot of the process was that there were fewer and fewer fiddlers I could enjoy... if they were doing something I'd already weeded out of my fiddling, I tended to have an aversion to it... maybe because I had heard so much of that sound under my ear that I'd overdosed on it.
Now, somehow, someway, in my senior years I find I'm NOT as picky and more tolerant than I used to be. I can focus on the good stuff and let the flaws slide... well, MOST of the time. But still, I can't get away from the fact that I do like certain things more than others.
There are a number of aspects of pattern downbowing that appeal to me... the sense of rootedness in being like the oldtimers I saw, the modular aspect makes things easy, and also the geeky part of me is intrigued by the math of it all. But none of that would matter a plugged nickel if I didn't REALLY LIKE THE SOUND OF IT.
In effect, pattern downbowing fiddling tends to have the most of what drew me to Old Time fiddling in the first place... there is a rhythmic density to it that I think sounds really cool. And the rhythm is capable of conforming to the melody, but is also capable of playing in a sort of rhythmic counterpoint to it. To do that, I think it helps a lot if you have rhythms memorized as a specific entity... that makes it easier for the melody and the rhythm to do something different at the same time.
BUT.... I like other genres... and I let the pattern downbowing slide there... it doesn't apply... unless it just happens to fit the phrasing I want, but if I need to go free form and backwards, well, I do that too!
Anyway, just like with the tuna fish and barbecue sauce
, if your taste in fiddle bowing doesn't agree with mine, I won't hate you...I'll just feel a little sorry for you that you're missing out on something so DELICIOUS!!!!
Ahhh!!!. Offset Nashvilles on the half-shell, garnished with Syncoshuffle and Smoothshuffle...
YUM!!!!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/10/2013: 19:53:24
I record what I want, when I want, when I feel like it, or have the energy for it. I'm 60, you know.
And I basically do it for the fun of it... sharing the joy of the music.
Just like with my senior gigs, I fiddle to give people some happiness. (Like, have you ever noticed that Soldier's Joy is so.... JOYFUL!!!????)
Dueling????
Eh... that's GROSS. Very demotivating.
A story... as I've mentioned before, I play electric guitar as well, and the core of what I play on it is blues.
For a while, I attended the local Blues Society jams. Then started to lose interest.
About the time I started losing interest, I started a conversation with a guy in a guitar shop that was playing some nice bluesy licks on a hollowbody jazz guitar. I asked him if he attended the blues jams, and he said no, and I asked him why not, and he said something to the effect that the jams were nothing but "fear and ego, man, fear and ego!" And I realized he was absolutely right... the jams were all about rivalry- what blues players call "head cutting". There were only one or two players at the jams that I really enjoyed, and one in particular, you could see on his face that his motive for playing was utterly childlike, and that the guitar was this really cool toy he could play with and coax these really cool sounds out of. For the rest, their fear or ego was just KILLING the musicality of it all.
And that's how I feel about fiddling too. And shuffles are these really cool musical toys to play with!!! When a new shuffle comes off the back burner, and I can integrate it into my tunes and make music with it, it's just SO much fun!!!
And it gives my old tunes a new groove and makes them new again.
Aside from that Idle, there's nothing in your other posts that I haven't answered multiple times, and you didn't listen.
Why should I bother replying to them??? Deja vu, all over again!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 02/10/2013 19:56:39
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/10/2013: 20:13:07
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
And - now - let me go another step, even further:
Here's Johnson Gals with a pattern bower:
youtu.be/RQKYw5IZSNU
Is the fiddler (Charlie Hunter) any good? HECK YEAH he's good!!! Good music is good! I was there - front row - third from the end - at 48 seconds - green shirt. That's me!
So who is the best then?
Well, they're both good, and I enjoyed both versions... but I LIKE Charlie Hunter's playing just a bit better...
it's a TASTE thing, you know, no accounting for it!!!
He is also a downbower, and gets those big sweeping aggressive initial downbows that remind me of Tommy Jarrell.
And that's another appealing thing.
And maybe also the fact that I could imagine myself playing the Johnson Gals very much like that... this might REALLY inspire me to learn the tune... why, I could probably play along with this one much easier than either of the other two.
(The Leake County Revelers recording is sharp about.... half of a half step... whuzzat??? Semitone? Quarterstep? Whatever... I HATE retuning to recordings! And it's also pretty fast.)
THANKS!!!!
IdleHands - Posted - 02/10/2013: 20:13:47
quote:
Originally posted by Carter
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
Yes, this is very much about underlying principles: should we face difficulties and become stronger through doing so or should we develop elaborate systems: of avoidance?
More offensive than usual.
I should elaborate... In short: Learning an instrument at all is already a huge difficulty that will make you stronger.
But doing difficult things like playing backwards will make you even better. That's not offensive. I dont see how it could be offensive to anyone. Fiddle teachers must be really offensive then, asking us to do difficult things and all.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/10/2013: 20:17:37
quote:
Originally posted by amwildman
Yes indeed, Carter. And he now is avoiding my requests for him to prove what he keeps talking about. He is an obvious troll, and the moderators either can't or will not do anything about it. I guess continually insinuating(or flat-out stating in some cases) that everybody is stupid or deliberately ignorant, without even so much as one shred of evidence, is not enforceable. I come to this site to chat a bit, get a new perspective occasionally, or some extra motivation and I get.........IdleHands. People are not allowed to engage in personal insults, yet he is allowed to insult damn near every fiddler in the world. Doesn't make much sense.
Plenty of teachers advocate practicing bowing backwards and learning to accent upbows. It really isnt impossible. And its not an insult to anybody to discuss it. The personal attack is calling someone a troll baselessly.
Edited by - IdleHands on 02/10/2013 20:19:26
IdleHands - Posted - 02/10/2013: 20:26:04
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I record what I want, when I want, when I feel like it, or have the energy for it. I'm 60, you know.
And I basically do it for the fun of it... sharing the joy of the music.
Just like with my senior gigs, I fiddle to give people some happiness. (Like, have you ever noticed that Soldier's Joy is so.... JOYFUL!!!????)
Dueling????
Eh... that's GROSS. Very demotivating.
A story... as I've mentioned before, I play electric guitar as well, and the core of what I play on it is blues.
For a while, I attended the local Blues Society jams. Then started to lose interest.
About the time I started losing interest, I started a conversation with a guy in a guitar shop that was playing some nice bluesy licks on a hollowbody jazz guitar. I asked him if he attended the blues jams, and he said no, and I asked him why not, and he said something to the effect that the jams were nothing but "fear and ego, man, fear and ego!" And I realized he was absolutely right... the jams were all about rivalry- what blues players call "head cutting". There were only one or two players at the jams that I really enjoyed, and one in particular, you could see on his face that his motive for playing was utterly childlike, and that the guitar was this really cool toy he could play with and coax these really cool sounds out of. For the rest, their fear or ego was just KILLING the musicality of it all.
And that's how I feel about fiddling too. And shuffles are these really cool musical toys to play with!!! When a new shuffle comes off the back burner, and I can integrate it into my tunes and make music with it, it's just SO much fun!!!
And it gives my old tunes a new groove and makes them new again.
Aside from that Idle, there's nothing in your other posts that I haven't answered multiple times, and you didn't listen.
Why should I bother replying to them??? Deja vu, all over again!
Shuffles are great backwards too! And are not impossible, or non rhythmic.
And i dont think you really have answered if you think people should practice your patterns backwards or not. I havent seen a simple yes or no answer, honestly.
DougD - Posted - 02/10/2013: 20:48:15
fiddlepogo - Here's a cleaner transfer of the Leake County Revelers. Still a little sharp, but closer to concert pitch: 1001tunes.com/PCvolume03/johns...ELERS.mp3
Instead of retuning, you can use software to correct the pitch too.
amwildman - Posted - 02/10/2013: 21:33:02
I'm sure this post will get deleted by a mod, but I feel like I have to respond.
Umm, that is not a personal attack. And it most certainly is not baseless. This from the one telling everybody they are basically trained monkeys, and bigoted against everything but patterns, and have low expectations. You are trying to rile people up deliberately by being vague(err.....succint), and using your fancy words and pedantic phrases do not hide the fact that you are trying to disrupt normal conversation on this forum and get a rise out of people. All the while, you sit back and poke, then claim you are some sort of enlightened, innocent, well-intentioned person. Everything about you reeks of troll. I've met your type before, and you don't fool me. You twist people's words around. You take their words out of context just to get a reaction. Like "And its not an insult to anybody to discuss it". Really? That is what you are choosing to take out of my previous post? Where did I say that we cannot discuss this or even that it was insulting? What I said was that YOU INSULT FIDDLERS EVERYWHERE BY BASICALLY TELLING THEM ARE TRAINED MONKEYS. I can provide more examples of your denigrating comments, or people can just search the forum and they will see for themselves. I also said that YOU ARE AVOIDING MY REQUESTS FOR PROOF OF WHAT YOU SPOUT. As in: You talk a lot of bullshark but will not back it up. I have seen you do this dozens of times: you evade the question or ignore it entirely, and then you bring out something like the monkey experiment that has nothing to do with bowing whatsoever so that people lose focus on you not actually backing up your points. You post almost nothing else on this forum at all. The second there is a bowing thread, you zero in and target people like Frodopogo because you know you can type 3 words and get him to type 3 pages in response. You constantly ask for duels, knowing that they prove nothing pertaining to the topic at hand. Well, you know what? Maybe if enough people like me speak up we can get rid of this behavior. I like debate. I even like heated debate. What I don't like is somebody sitting in a dark corner trying to pull strings, all the while pretending to be some sort of do-gooder. In fact, can I get a moderator response? How long are we going to ignore this type of behavior?
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/10/2013: 22:40:31
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
The Tallboys fiddler does a very convincing job of getting their sound... is he bowing it precisely the way the Leake County fiddler did??? We may never know. It DOES sound good though, and in the absence of any videos of the Leake County Revelers, that may be the best that can be done.
Why does that matter?
I'm not trying to be smart here. But this is probably at the heart of our differences.
To me, fiddling lore is best transmitted person to person. Earl Collins isn't just a faceless fiddler on a 78 to me, I got to see and hear him up close, and shake his hand. And I have the film about him, and it's really cool having it, because it's an extension of meeting him. And need I say, meeting and hearing Tommy Jarrell in person was very special to me. I learned a lot, and not just about bowing.... in fact, the biggest part wasn't about bowing at all.
Anyway, these guys are gone, and this music is kind of their memorial to me. It's not just notes and techniques.
It's a personal connection.
Actually, I think I enjoy reading or hearing interviews with them as much as I hear them play.
Anyway, I wish we had more than the recordings of the Leake County Revelers.... I'm sure their fiddler was a cool guy and a character too. Probably would have made some good interviews!
And I would have LOVED to see his bowing arm in action!
Maybe because I'm a very visual learner, an audio recording without video seems incomplete.
And it eliminates guesswork about a number of things- like bow direction.
Anyway, I have an idea that Brad Leftwich feels this way too. He has family in Virginia, and the amount of time he spent with old guys learning fiddling lore makes my experiences look microscopic... and funny thing... he's a pattern downbower!
I think it's just that he wants to faithfully preserve and pass on a tradition that he loves very much. I've known people just to become folklorists or ethnomusicologists because they were fiddlers and loved the music so much. Fiddlers first, folklorists second.
I know some academics get kind of "out there", kind of disconnected from reality... but Brad Leftwich is a fiddler himself, and I think that keeps him at least somewhat rooted in the practical realities of fiddling. He's not theorizing about something that happened back in the 1840's that no one got to see... he's talking about things he got to see and emulate with his own fiddle to the particular oldtimer's satisfaction. He's a veritable storehouse of fiddling knowledge, but to so many, he might as well be Rodney Dangerfield for all the respect he gets. I would love for him to show up and share on this thread, but if I with my Old Time pattern downbowing views get treated the way I've been treated, I don't think he would fare any better. Other pattern downbowers probably are watching this thread, and have far more sense than I do (maybe I should have my head examined for showing up???), and are staying FAR, FAR, AWAY!!!
Our loss.
Disclaimer... I have not met Brad Leftwich, and am not in any way being employed by him.
tonyelder - Posted - 02/10/2013: 23:27:33
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Anyway, these guys are gone, and this music is kind of their memorial to me. It's not just notes and techniques.
It's a personal connection.
****
I think it's just that he wants to faithfully preserve and pass on a tradition that he loves very much. I've known people just to become folklorists or ethnomusicologists because they were fiddlers and loved the music so much. Fiddlers first, folklorists second.
I think those are very legitimate reasons for learning the patterns they used and learning to play those tunes the way they did. In this case, I would consider it a "requirement" if someone's intention was to faithfully preserve and pass on a particular fiddler's style of playing. I'm really proud that there are folks who want to do that. including you.
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/10/2013 23:33:28
GeeDubya - Posted - 02/11/2013: 04:42:18
Easy, Ann. You're feeding the troll.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/11/2013: 06:26:12
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
The Tallboys fiddler does a very convincing job of getting their sound... is he bowing it precisely the way the Leake County fiddler did??? We may never know. It DOES sound good though, and in the absence of any videos of the Leake County Revelers, that may be the best that can be done.
Why does that matter?
I'm not trying to be smart here. But this is probably at the heart of our differences.
To me, fiddling lore is best transmitted person to person. Earl Collins isn't just a faceless fiddler on a 78 to me, I got to see and hear him up close, and shake his hand. And I have the film about him, and it's really cool having it, because it's an extension of meeting him. And need I say, meeting and hearing Tommy Jarrell in person was very special to me. I learned a lot, and not just about bowing.... in fact, the biggest part wasn't about bowing at all.
Anyway, these guys are gone, and this music is kind of their memorial to me. It's not just notes and techniques.
It's a personal connection.
Actually, I think I enjoy reading or hearing interviews with them as much as I hear them play.
Anyway, I wish we had more than the recordings of the Leake County Revelers.... I'm sure their fiddler was a cool guy and a character too. Probably would have made some good interviews!
And I would have LOVED to see his bowing arm in action!
Maybe because I'm a very visual learner, an audio recording without video seems incomplete.
And it eliminates guesswork about a number of things- like bow direction.
Anyway, I have an idea that Brad Leftwich feels this way too. He has family in Virginia, and the amount of time he spent with old guys learning fiddling lore makes my experiences look microscopic... and funny thing... he's a pattern downbower!
I think it's just that he wants to faithfully preserve and pass on a tradition that he loves very much. I've known people just to become folklorists or ethnomusicologists because they were fiddlers and loved the music so much. Fiddlers first, folklorists second.
I know some academics get kind of "out there", kind of disconnected from reality... but Brad Leftwich is a fiddler himself, and I think that keeps him at least somewhat rooted in the practical realities of fiddling. He's not theorizing about something that happened back in the 1840's that no one got to see... he's talking about things he got to see and emulate with his own fiddle to the particular oldtimer's satisfaction. He's a veritable storehouse of fiddling knowledge, but to so many, he might as well be Rodney Dangerfield for all the respect he gets. I would love for him to show up and share on this thread, but if I with my Old Time pattern downbowing views get treated the way I've been treated, I don't think he would fare any better. Other pattern downbowers probably are watching this thread, and have far more sense than I do (maybe I should have my head examined for showing up???), and are staying FAR, FAR, AWAY!!!
Our loss.
Disclaimer... I have not met Brad Leftwich, and am not in any way being employed by him.
the way you've been treated? Nobody tries to stop you from contributing, michael. Nor does anyone malign your character and sincerity.
Edited by - IdleHands on 02/11/2013 06:28:08
tonyelder - Posted - 02/11/2013: 09:05:23
Brad Leftwich is a very accomplished old time fiddler. I have heard folks call him “the bow nazi” – but, even they would be quick to say he is a great fiddler. I have also heard (from a person I consider to be reliable) that he has somewhat softened his attitude a bit through the years.
But it shouldn’t surprise anyone if there are folks who favor other fiddlers when it comes to choosing who they want to hear playing tunes, or learn from . That’s not disrespect.
Personally – one of my favorite “albums” is with one he and Dan Gellert recorded together (A Moment In Time). I love to play “Hell On Nine Mile”, but people always want to correct me and say it is Duck River.
But - I know better.
However, I can only imagine that Brad or Dan heard me play it, they would probably both say – no, that’s not either. 
I also have both of his teaching videos.
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/11/2013 09:07:03
IdleHands - Posted - 02/15/2013: 07:46:12
Michael, what series of strokes isn't repeatable?
IdleHands - Posted - 02/15/2013: 08:08:32
Michael, what series of strokes isn't repeatable?
fishinmusician - Posted - 02/15/2013: 09:54:41
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Anyway, these guys are gone, and this music is kind of their memorial to me. It's not just notes and techniques.
It's a personal connection.
****
I think it's just that he wants to faithfully preserve and pass on a tradition that he loves very much. I've known people just to become folklorists or ethnomusicologists because they were fiddlers and loved the music so much. Fiddlers first, folklorists second.
I think those are very legitimate reasons for learning the patterns they used and learning to play those tunes the way they did. In this case, I would consider it a "requirement" if someone's intention was to faithfully preserve and pass on a particular fiddler's style of playing. I'm really proud that there are folks who want to do that. including you.
This same sentiment was eloquently conveyed by a guy over on Banjo Hangout. He said, "The banjo is our direct connection to the past, and for many of us, it is an expression of our identity in the present."
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/15/2013: 14:42:53
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
Michael, what series of strokes isn't repeatable?
As so often happens, you have a way of mangling what I say so badly that I don't even recognize it.
Would you please show me what statement of mine you are talking about???
IdleHands - Posted - 02/15/2013: 18:06:00
quote:
Originally posted by amwildman
I'm sure this post will get deleted by a mod, but I feel like I have to respond.
Umm, that is not a personal attack. And it most certainly is not baseless. This from the one telling everybody they are basically trained monkeys, and bigoted against everything but patterns, and have low expectations. You are trying to rile people up deliberately by being vague(err.....succint), and using your fancy words and pedantic phrases do not hide the fact that you are trying to disrupt normal conversation on this forum and get a rise out of people. All the while, you sit back and poke, then claim you are some sort of enlightened, innocent, well-intentioned person. Everything about you reeks of troll. I've met your type before, and you don't fool me. You twist people's words around. You take their words out of context just to get a reaction. Like "And its not an insult to anybody to discuss it". Really? That is what you are choosing to take out of my previous post? Where did I say that we cannot discuss this or even that it was insulting? What I said was that YOU INSULT FIDDLERS EVERYWHERE BY BASICALLY TELLING THEM ARE TRAINED MONKEYS. I can provide more examples of your denigrating comments, or people can just search the forum and they will see for themselves. I also said that YOU ARE AVOIDING MY REQUESTS FOR PROOF OF WHAT YOU SPOUT. As in: You talk a lot of bullshark but will not back it up. I have seen you do this dozens of times: you evade the question or ignore it entirely, and then you bring out something like the monkey experiment that has nothing to do with bowing whatsoever so that people lose focus on you not actually backing up your points. You post almost nothing else on this forum at all. The second there is a bowing thread, you zero in and target people like Frodopogo because you know you can type 3 words and get him to type 3 pages in response. You constantly ask for duels, knowing that they prove nothing pertaining to the topic at hand. Well, you know what? Maybe if enough people like me speak up we can get rid of this behavior. I like debate. I even like heated debate. What I don't like is somebody sitting in a dark corner trying to pull strings, all the while pretending to be some sort of do-gooder. In fact, can I get a moderator response? How long are we going to ignore this type of behavior?
I admire your passion, but i assure that that i am a well intentioned person, trying to help all the monkeys get the bananas, instead of framing complete bowing mastery as an out of reach unrealistic goal.
Dave S - Posted - 02/17/2013: 09:31:09
>1. Tunes with a lot of pinky work on the left hand combined with the middle and ring fingers... gotta get those three fingers independent and working on something like the same level as the index.
Bb tunes are good for that in general, and in particular, the B part of "Good for the Tongue". Killer. ;-)
ABC from trillian.mit.edu/~jc/music/boo...le/Tunes/ below:
X:1
T:Good For the Tongue -- Hornpipe
Z:Bob Puckette 2003-3-10
R:hornpipe
B:Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes
M:2/4
L:1/16
K:Bb
vF2|Bcde .f(BAB)|gBaB .b(BAB)|GeFd EcDB|cdec BAGF|
Bcde .f(BAB)|gBaB .b(BAB)|GeFd EcDB|dcBA B2:|
|:(vde)|.f(BAB) .g(BAB)|babg gfed|g^fgd edeG|cdec BAGF|
Bcde .f(BAB)|gBaB .b(BAB)|GeFd EcDB|dcBA B2:|
Edited by - Dave S on 02/17/2013 09:31:41
Dave S - Posted - 02/20/2013: 12:00:35
My very first fiddle lesson long ago was from a local guy who is better known for jazz-ish playing than for any OT-related styles. He was showing me some bowing techniques and mentioned a simple pattern that he said (wrongly, as I found out later) was used a lot by bluegrass fiddlers: a stroke and a slur. So, two notes per stroke. I didn't spend much time with it and have never tried to incorporate it into my playing over the years as a pattern but I wondered if anyone here uses it, and if so, in what context. It does lead to plenty of practice in crossing strings during a slur, and an interesting aspect of this pattern is that when you 'swing' notes (daaa da daaa da daaa da), the bowing does not favor either up-stroke and down-stroke--perhaps good for developing skill in bowing either direction.
IdleHands - Posted - 03/04/2013: 07:37:44
quote:
Originally posted by Dave S
My very first fiddle lesson long ago was from a local guy who is better known for jazz-ish playing than for any OT-related styles. He was showing me some bowing techniques and mentioned a simple pattern that he said (wrongly, as I found out later) was used a lot by bluegrass fiddlers: a stroke and a slur. So, two notes per stroke. I didn't spend much time with it and have never tried to incorporate it into my playing over the years as a pattern but I wondered if anyone here uses it, and if so, in what context. It does lead to plenty of practice in crossing strings during a slur, and an interesting aspect of this pattern is that when you 'swing' notes (daaa da daaa da daaa da), the bowing does not favor either up-stroke and down-stroke--perhaps good for developing skill in bowing either direction.
Yes, becoming proficient in bowing in either direction is a great idea!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/04/2013: 08:16:46
quote:
Originally posted by Dave S
My very first fiddle lesson long ago was from a local guy who is better known for jazz-ish playing than for any OT-related styles. He was showing me some bowing techniques and mentioned a simple pattern that he said (wrongly, as I found out later) was used a lot by bluegrass fiddlers: a stroke and a slur. So, two notes per stroke. I didn't spend much time with it and have never tried to incorporate it into my playing over the years as a pattern but I wondered if anyone here uses it, and if so, in what context. It does lead to plenty of practice in crossing strings during a slur, and an interesting aspect of this pattern is that when you 'swing' notes (daaa da daaa da daaa da), the bowing does not favor either up-stroke and down-stroke--perhaps good for developing skill in bowing either direction.
Going to the very first post by Dave Reiner in this VERY LONG thread I would guess it would be THIS ONE:
"d u - d - u - d-1-2-2-2-1 (Swingy, jazzy across the beat)
[Florida Blues]"
Mike Fontenot says that something similar is used in Texas fiddling.
From the description it sounds like something your first fiddle teacher would have used.
And YES, IdleHands, I agree that THIS particular pattern is well suited to "anywhichway", that is, playing both backwards and forwards.
I think this is because the 2 note slurs are played with a mid-note pulse, which is kind of a soft accent.
And in fact, the way Dave has it notated, it gets you "turned around".
Dave S - Posted - 03/04/2013: 19:40:56
FP, I'm not sure how to translate Dave Reiner's code, but if each hyphen represents a slurred (non-bowed) note, then the pattern would be this one:
d - u - d - u -
2-2-2-2 (French Canadian, West Virginia bowing)
[The Rags, Reel du Diable, Three Forks of Cheat, Yew Piney Mountain]
For example, playing up and down the E scale between the open E and B:
Downbowed open E, slurred F#, upbowed G#, slurred A, downbowed B, slurred A, upbowed G#, slurred F#, downbowed open E.
Or start the sequence with an upbow.
Edited by - Dave S on 03/04/2013 19:43:04
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/05/2013: 07:31:09
If you wanna watch somebody get "turned around," look over at the VFF on the sound off frum at my March 2013 Fly Around my Pretty Little Mss effort...it wasn't from trying any particular pattern...it was from total lack of practice or ever playing. I was trying to stick as close to my Nashville shuffle comfort zone as possible, but even though it goes both ways, you can still find yourself ending a phrase or beginning a phrase ( where you'd normally drop the shuffle for some fitting ending strokes) going the wrong way,,, in which case everything just feels awkward until you manage to think fast enough on your feet to get turned back into wat feels like a comfortable direction. Should you be able to go both directions? Yeah, because this kinda stuff happens.,.but is there one direction or another that feels like the reference point that directs the tune? Well at this early point in my playing, I'm saying, yes, I think so. But who knows what I migh think if I ever get decent paying experience? But right now I lean more on the side of directional bowing...a right direction and a challenging one...patterns that come and go neatly, so as to allow free licks, endings, turn arounds, etc., to fit in without throwing everything into the wrong direction fr your reference point. Up bowing, I think mentally I'm starting to "get it," but only within the context of down bowing...so, at this point my thinking is that up bowing can only exist within dwn bowing. Patterns might help, but can only help and not rule. I could say more but not to make it make lts f sense!
rcc - Posted - 03/05/2013: 09:25:08
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Anyway, I have an idea that Brad Leftwich feels this way too. He has family in Virginia, and the amount of time he spent with old guys learning fiddling lore makes my experiences look microscopic... and funny thing... he's a pattern downbower!
I think it's just that he wants to faithfully preserve and pass on a tradition that he loves very much. I've known people just to become folklorists or ethnomusicologists because they were fiddlers and loved the music so much. Fiddlers first, folklorists second.
I know some academics get kind of "out there", kind of disconnected from reality... but Brad Leftwich is a fiddler himself, and I think that keeps him at least somewhat rooted in the practical realities of fiddling. He's not theorizing about something that happened back in the 1840's that no one got to see... he's talking about things he got to see and emulate with his own fiddle to the particular oldtimer's satisfaction. He's a veritable storehouse of fiddling knowledge, but to so many, he might as well be Rodney Dangerfield for all the respect he gets. I would love for him to show up and share on this thread, but if I with my Old Time pattern downbowing views get treated the way I've been treated, I don't think he would fare any better. Other pattern downbowers probably are watching this thread, and have far more sense than I do (maybe I should have my head examined for showing up???), and are staying FAR, FAR, AWAY!!!
Our loss.
Disclaimer... I have not met Brad Leftwich, and am not in any way being employed by him.
(I don't believe I've gotten sucked back into this thread. But I can't let one pass...)
Pogo,
I *have* met Brad Leftwich a number of times and have talked to him about bowing and his teaching methods.
He uses patterns as a teaching tool. He often picks tunes to teach or bowings with a tune that fit well with patterns. But he's doing that to quickly and efficiently communicate bowing. You don't have a whole lot of time in most workshops. That limits the complexity of the tunes you can teach and the detail you can dive into. So he consciously picks tunes and/or bowings for the tune that make it faster and easier to teach ... and learn. That way the students get a complete tune with reasonable bowing and some focused exposure to a bowing pattern or two.
He doesn't play that way. Sometimes he doesn't bow the tune the same way he taught it. Near as I can tell, he learns tunes like every other top fiddle player I know of. He plays it and then fixes what's broken. In the past, he did break things down into patterns. I know others who have too. Now they all just listen and play.
Brad's advice on learning fiddle is pretty much the same as every other top fiddle player I've talked to. He's a big proponent of listening and re-listening to recordings for example.
Now his playing style is very clean and straight-ahead. I don't think he messes with fine timing a whole lot or ventures much into stranger harmonies. That gives him something of a reputation. I'm sure that when some people play with him, they'll avoid some variations, harmonies, etc. and stick to the more straight-ahead stuff.
But he's not a pattern downbower. He's a listen to the source recording, play the tune and tweak whatever doesn't seem right bower.
Edited by - rcc on 03/05/2013 09:27:50
KCFiddles - Posted - 03/05/2013: 10:10:14
quote:
Originally posted by rcc
Sometimes he doesn't bow the tune the same way he taught it. Near as I can tell, he learns tunes like every other top fiddle player I know of. He plays it and then fixes what's broken.
Well said! That's exactly what I do, but I never would have thought to articulate it that way. Obviously you don't have to be a top fiddler for that approach to work.
IdleHands - Posted - 03/05/2013: 10:37:16
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
If you wanna watch somebody get "turned around," look over at the VFF on the sound off frum at my March 2013 Fly Around my Pretty Little Mss effort...it wasn't from trying any particular pattern...it was from total lack of practice or ever playing. I was trying to stick as close to my Nashville shuffle comfort zone as possible, but even though it goes both ways, you can still find yourself ending a phrase or beginning a phrase ( where you'd normally drop the shuffle for some fitting ending strokes) going the wrong way,,, in which case everything just feels awkward until you manage to think fast enough on your feet to get turned back into wat feels like a comfortable direction. Should you be able to go both directions? Yeah, because this kinda stuff happens.,.but is there one direction or another that feels like the reference point that directs the tune? Well at this early point in my playing, I'm saying, yes, I think so. But who knows what I migh think if I ever get decent paying experience? But right now I lean more on the side of directional bowing...a right direction and a challenging one...patterns that come and go neatly, so as to allow free licks, endings, turn arounds, etc., to fit in without throwing everything into the wrong direction fr your reference point. Up bowing, I think mentally I'm starting to "get it," but only within the context of down bowing...so, at this point my thinking is that up bowing can only exist within dwn bowing. Patterns might help, but can only help and not rule. I could say more but not to make it make lts f sense!
But challenging isnt wrong. Dont we practice what is most challenging? Practicing whats easy is kind of a copout, and leads to neverending plateau. I know iM a hard taskmaster.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/05/2013: 12:44:14
I choose my words carefully when I have nuff time to think about it. Challenges can be viewed in various ways...while I'm enjoying playing the fiddle, I like to have as few challenges as pssible. Still, I did choose the word because its only a direction I lean toward, as a new, self-taught, inexperienced back porch fidder at best.
IdleHands - Posted - 03/05/2013: 13:56:54
I guess it's just a matter of preferences. You can prefer to plan your bowing so that backwardness is avoided, or you can develop the physical coordination to where backward bowing doesnt trip you up. It's a matter of personal propensity. Are you thinky, or do-y?
Our current society urges to orient towards the thinky. But being thinky makes us susceptible to delusion. Mental simulacrum of reality can be useful, but we can also become susceptible to delusions. Reality is where the rubber meets the road.
Edited by - IdleHands on 03/05/2013 13:58:55
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/05/2013: 14:05:19
I just wanna get the sounds inside my head to come through my fiddle without too much damage...
IdleHands - Posted - 03/05/2013: 14:08:31
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
I just wanna get the sounds inside my head to come through my fiddle without too much damage...
To the sounds, your head, or the fiddle?
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/05/2013: 14:12:49
Lol...all of the above!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2013: 15:36:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dave S
FP, I'm not sure how to translate Dave Reiner's code, but if each hyphen represents a slurred (non-bowed) note, then the pattern would be this one:
d - u - d - u -
2-2-2-2 (French Canadian, West Virginia bowing)
[The Rags, Reel du Diable, Three Forks of Cheat, Yew Piney Mountain]
For example, playing up and down the E scale between the open E and B:
Downbowed open E, slurred F#, upbowed G#, slurred A, downbowed B, slurred A, upbowed G#, slurred F#, downbowed open E.
Or start the sequence with an upbow.
Yup, that's the OTHER two note slur pattern.
BUT that one has a tendency to sound very "straight" rather than jazzy or swingy.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2013: 16:23:50
quote:
Originally posted by rcc
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Anyway, I have an idea that Brad Leftwich feels this way too. He has family in Virginia, and the amount of time he spent with old guys learning fiddling lore makes my experiences look microscopic... and funny thing... he's a pattern downbower!
I think it's just that he wants to faithfully preserve and pass on a tradition that he loves very much. I've known people just to become folklorists or ethnomusicologists because they were fiddlers and loved the music so much. Fiddlers first, folklorists second.
I know some academics get kind of "out there", kind of disconnected from reality... but Brad Leftwich is a fiddler himself, and I think that keeps him at least somewhat rooted in the practical realities of fiddling. He's not theorizing about something that happened back in the 1840's that no one got to see... he's talking about things he got to see and emulate with his own fiddle to the particular oldtimer's satisfaction. He's a veritable storehouse of fiddling knowledge, but to so many, he might as well be Rodney Dangerfield for all the respect he gets. I would love for him to show up and share on this thread, but if I with my Old Time pattern downbowing views get treated the way I've been treated, I don't think he would fare any better. Other pattern downbowers probably are watching this thread, and have far more sense than I do (maybe I should have my head examined for showing up???), and are staying FAR, FAR, AWAY!!!
Our loss.
Disclaimer... I have not met Brad Leftwich, and am not in any way being employed by him.
He doesn't play that way. Sometimes he doesn't bow the tune the same way he taught it. Near as I can tell, he learns tunes like every other top fiddle player I know of. He plays it and then fixes what's broken. In the past, he did break things down into patterns. I know others who have too. Now they all just listen and play.
Brad's advice on learning fiddle is pretty much the same as every other top fiddle player I've talked to. He's a big proponent of listening and re-listening to recordings for example.
But he's not a pattern downbower. He's a listen to the source recording, play the tune and tweak whatever doesn't seem right bower.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Aw, Ray, you WOULD have to go and stir things up!!!
What you're missing is that after learning patterns, they get internalized. I don't think about patterns when I play, most of the time- they just happen. But when I do choose to think about what I'm doing pattern-wise, I notice things like "Oh... now I'm using Syncoshuffle in THAT tune too- cool!" or something like that.
I've never advocated trying to pre-map every pattern. I learn a pattern, apply it in a test tune (usually June Apple), and once I can do it fluently in the test tune... it escapes into the wild of my subconscious.
Perhaps now and then I recombine elements of patterns or bow something "anywhichway" and it solidfies into a set way of doing that tune or phrase, but it's rare, and the more cool patterns I know, the rarer it gets- I can usually tell when I'm using patterns versus "anywhichwaying" a passage, because the patterns are so well-rehearsed, they fall into place easily- whereas an "anywhichway" passage seems to cause a certain amount of struggle, either because something isn't working with bowing it that way, or just because i need to practice the bowing. But most of my patterns are "pre-practiced", so they almost choose themselves.
IOW "tweak whatever doesn't seem right" can include unconsciously swapping out one pattern that doesn't fit for one that does.
You might interpret that as reverting to "anywhichway", but I don't. On slow stuff, with a variety of note values, anywhichway makes sense as an approach of first resort, but on hoedowns or hornpipes with densely packed notes with many being the same value, I find anywhichway to be my approach of LAST RESORT. Pattern downbowing gets me up and running much quicker on the bowing, and also gives me lots of tools for imitating some old timer's bowing IF I WANT TO. And most fiddle tunes just don't have that much variety in the note length- usually a combination of eighth notes and quarter notes, or sixteenth notes and eight notes, depending on how you want to notate it. And since they are dance tunes, you need to establish some kind of groove that's compatible with the melody, and repetition is an element in groove. And patterns are a useful tool in getting that repetition- nothing is guaranteed to sound as much the same as just flat BOWING it the same.
I did however have an e-mail exchange with Brad, and he seemed to identify as a pattern downbower.
Of COURSE you listen to the source recording- that's a given. Even better, listen to a source VIDEO.
But someone who knows patterns well isn't just hearing a tune when they do that- they're hearing patterns-
Okay... here he's using sawstroke, here he's using Nashville Shuffle. Usually those two are the majority of the bowing in a source recording since they were so pervasive, so anything that's NOT those two sticks out like a sore thumb. Are those portions willy-nilly anywhichway? Well, not necessarily- if you know and use the patterns Dave Reiner mentions, plus the couple I added, you can identify a whole lot more.
Also, from what he told me, Brad Leftwich is a veteran of bowing wars himself, and he's DONE with debating it.
That being the case, if you present yourself as being somewhat down on patterns or downbowing, you just might get a "diplomatic" answer.
Ultimately, it's what actually ends up in a persons playing, rather than how they think about it.
Chirps says he doesn't analyze, and I believe him- but he learned a lot from Gary Harrison. And what he learned comes out as classic sawstroke-based downbowing. He uses a few classic short patterns as well to spice things up. He has some very clear videos up on YouTube, and in the ones I saw, he never got turned around.
Steve Downey ALSO doesn't analyze, and in watching his video, he clearly gets turned around.
Now, from what they SAY about their approach, it sounds the SAME...
but when you LOOK at how they play (and they both play well) it's NOT the same.
I've also seen ONE video of DougD- a very nice version of Martha Campbell. He also claims not to analyze. And, like Chirps, in THAT video, he looks like a classic saw-stroke based downbower, and likewise uses short (four note rather than eight note) patterns as spice. Now he may bow other things anywhichway, but in that one video, he looked REALLY comfortable with downbowing and short patterns... so I suspect he uses those strategies in more than one tune- how else would he be comfortable with them?
IdleHands - Posted - 03/05/2013: 17:39:47
An "anywhichway" tune is just a pattern tune you didnt dissect. Any sequence of strokes is a pattern if you bother to name it, and if you dont bother to name it.
Edited by - IdleHands on 03/05/2013 17:40:54
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