fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2013:  17:40:05

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Originally posted by KCFiddles

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Originally posted by rcc

Sometimes he doesn't bow the tune the same way he taught it.  Near as I can tell, he learns tunes like every other top fiddle player I know of.  He plays it and then fixes what's broken. 

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Well said! That's exactly what I do, but I never would have thought to articulate it that way. Obviously you don't have to be a top fiddler for that approach to work.

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But the key question is... HOW do you fix what is broken?

If you know, say, 6 patterns well, you could swap them out for the "broken" part... and very possibly do it intuitively, on the fly. (That's what I do)

Why "reinvent the wheel", when there's a known solution?  Does anybody really think that Brad Leftwich, having written a DVD course on patterns, isn't going to draw on those patterns to fix what is broken?

Reinventing the wheel takes TIME, something we all have a limited amount of, and if we start late in life at fiddling, we have less.

Of course, learning patterns takes time too, but once learned, you have a reusable tool in your toolbox.

AND  (on topic save!)  at the BEGINNING of this thread is  a NICE toolbox of patterns... VERY useful stuff!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2013:  17:46:58

quote:

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Originally posted by Dave S

FP, I'm not sure how to translate Dave Reiner's code, but if each hyphen represents a slurred (non-bowed) note, then the pattern would be this one:

d - u - d - u -

2-2-2-2 (French Canadian, West Virginia bowing)

[The Rags, Reel du Diable, Three Forks of Cheat, Yew Piney Mountain]

For example, playing up and down the E scale between the open E and B:

 

Downbowed open E, slurred F#, upbowed  G#, slurred A, downbowed B, slurred A, upbowed G#, slurred F#, downbowed open E.

 

Or start the sequence with an upbow.

 

 

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Dave Reiner's code assumes the pattern is an eight note pattern (the total of all the numbers is always 8) and the first single note or slur starts on the downbeat of that eight note pattern.

It also tends to assume you are starting on a downbow, but at least some of the patterns could be reversed.

The 2 note slurs you are pointing to here fit very nicely in the eight note patterns.

However, the swingy, offset slurs DON'T fit in so tidily.

Generally it's easier to learn the tidier ones first, then try the offset ones.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2013:  18:08:31

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Originally posted by rcc

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Anyway, I have an idea that Brad Leftwich feels this way too.  He has family in Virginia, and the amount of time he spent with old guys learning fiddling lore makes my experiences look microscopic... and funny thing... he's a pattern downbower!

I think it's just that he wants to faithfully preserve and pass on a tradition that he loves very much. I've known people just to become folklorists or ethnomusicologists because they were fiddlers and loved the music so much.  Fiddlers first, folklorists second.

I know some academics get kind of "out there", kind of disconnected from reality... but Brad Leftwich is a fiddler himself, and I think that keeps him at least somewhat rooted in the practical realities of fiddling.  He's not theorizing about something that happened back in the 1840's that no one got to see... he's talking about things he got to see and emulate with his own fiddle to the particular oldtimer's satisfaction.  He's a veritable storehouse of fiddling knowledge, but to so many, he might as well be Rodney Dangerfield for all the respect he gets.  I would love for him to show up and share on this thread, but if I with my Old Time pattern downbowing views get treated the way I've been treated, I don't think he would fare any better.  Other pattern downbowers probably are watching this thread, and have far more sense than I do  (maybe I should have my head examined for showing up???), and are staying FAR, FAR, AWAY!!!

Our loss.

Disclaimer... I have not met Brad Leftwich, and am not in any way being employed by him. 

 

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(I don't believe I've gotten sucked back into this thread.  But I can't let one pass...)

Pogo,

I *have* met Brad Leftwich a number of times and have talked to him about bowing and his teaching methods.

He uses patterns as a teaching tool.  He often picks tunes to teach or bowings with a tune that fit well with patterns.  But he's doing that to quickly and efficiently communicate bowing.  You don't have a whole lot of time in most workshops.  That limits the complexity of the tunes you can teach and the detail you can dive into.  So he consciously picks tunes and/or bowings for the tune that make it faster and easier to teach ... and learn.  That way the students get a complete tune with reasonable bowing and some focused exposure to a bowing pattern or two.

He doesn't play that way.  Sometimes he doesn't bow the tune the same way he taught it.  Near as I can tell, he learns tunes like every other top fiddle player I know of.  He plays it and then fixes what's broken.  In the past, he did break things down into patterns.  I know others who have too.   Now they all just listen and play.

Brad's advice on learning fiddle is pretty much the same as every other top fiddle player I've talked to.  He's a big proponent of listening and re-listening to recordings for example.

Now his playing style is very clean and straight-ahead.  I don't think he messes with fine timing a whole lot or ventures much into stranger harmonies.  That gives him something of a reputation.  I'm sure that when some people play with him, they'll avoid some variations, harmonies, etc. and stick to the more straight-ahead stuff.

But he's not a pattern downbower.  He's a listen to the source recording, play the tune and tweak whatever doesn't seem right bower.

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Another thing that enters into all this:

Learning styles.

For instance, I'm a very visual learner.  This helped me learning patterns in person quickly when people were showing me stuff, and it even helps when learning from fiddlers who are just playing, and not TRYING to show you stuff.

But not everybody is wired the same way.  We would LIKE to think that we all come to the fiddling table with the same learning tools, but that's just not reality.

Likewise, bowing pattern notation is pretty dry stuff... not everyone can translate a line of numbers into a real bowing.

I have a peculiar mix of learning disabilities and talents.  I KNOW that learning some things is going to be tough or impossible for me, and learning some things certain WAYS is going to be tough or impossible.  (I've got all the symptoms of a math disability, aka "dyscalculia")

If you're not a visual learner, and thinking it patterns doesn't work for you, FINE... I understand that.

But for some people who ARE wired for the visual learning and/or the pattern thinking, it WILL "give them a leg up" on the bowing process.

And fiddle is hard enough that people need all the help they can get with this very tough instrument.

And some people taking the pattern approach are making REALLY good progress that way.  If you're nice to them, they might just show you something in a way that you CAN understand.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2013:  20:36:52

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

I did however have an e-mail exchange with Brad, and he seemed to identify as a pattern downbower.

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Or IIRC... perhaps I should rather say-

I identified MYSELF clearly as a pattern downbower, and he was not only okay with that, he was encouraging me that that was in fact what he saw as being the most widespread traditional approach.  The whole reason I wrote him was that I was wondering if I dreamt this stuff up (I was exposed to a fair amount of fiddling for about four years, and then worked on my fiddling in isolation for another fourteen.... but the bowing approach I was using SOUNDED a lot like I remembered from the recordings... and I wanted to know whether I was taking a traditional approach- or a personally creative one.

Also- you have to remember that the guy who taught me Syncoshuffle, Tom Sauber, played in a band with Brad AFTER he taught me Syncoshuffle.

Tom was also all about hanging out with oldtimers and learning from them, and I think they clicked together in the band because they were kindred fiddling spirits- traditionalists, IOW.  Along with Alice Gerrard, of course!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2013:  21:47:33

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Originally posted by tonyelder

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo



The Tallboys fiddler does a very convincing job of getting their sound... is he bowing it precisely the way the Leake County fiddler did???  We may never know.  It DOES sound good though, and in the absence of any videos of the Leake County Revelers, that may be the best that can be done.

 

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Why does that matter? 

I'm not trying to be smart here. But this is probably at the heart of our differences.

 

 

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You know, I saw this question of Tony's in the process of replying Ray (rcc).

And I thought of an answer I hadn't thought of before.

Somewhere in the process of studying German, I picked up the term "Weltanschauung" which literally means "world-view".   It's kind of like "point of view" but bigger.  And I just remembered something that affected my fiddling "worldview".

The summers of '75 and '76 were important formational ones for me as a fiddler, because I managed to finally travel back east, and got to see Tommy Jarrell and other Old Timers.  But in between those two summers, I had a Irish Trad fiddler as a room-mate.  He lent me a lot of albums, and explained a lot of things about Irish music.... but he didn't like my attempts at Irish tunes- said I had too strong of an Old Time accent on them.  But he was a very careful fellow, and I think I absorbed some of his careful approach to a traditional music genre- only I applied it to Old Time.  And I think what happened is that just as the left hand ornaments are a very important aspect of traditional Irish fiddling, I began to see bowing approaches and bowing patterns as being an equivalent aspect in Old Time.  And then, when I saw Tommy Jarrell play, it cemented that way of looking at bowing-  not necessarily just a free-wheeling whatever-turns-you-on personal expression aspect of fiddling, but also as something essentially traditionally to be apprenticed in.  Yeah, there is an aspect of personal expression there, but there are also characteristic traditional elements to be preserved.  And I also noticed a dichotomy between the way the revival fiddlers bowed, and the way the oldtimers I had seen bowed.  For one thing, younger fiddlers back then avoided sawstroke like the plague.

One thing I noticed and got annoyed with was that Irish musicians and Bluegrass musicians tended to view Old Time dismissively.  And that puzzled me, because I had heard some awesome Old Time fiddling on records... but the stuff the younger players were playing in the 70's wasn't all that impressive... and it really couldn't be, because the majority of us hadn't been playing fiddle all that long.

Anyway, I think that at some point I felt that I needed to imitate the VERY BEST in Old Time fiddling, and not be satisfied with "good enough".  And part of that imitating was imitating the bowing as best I could.... which wasn't very good for a long time, because I got isolated... but the things Tom Sauber, Jeff Cherniss and Dave Vittek stuck with me, and also the visual image of Tommy Jarrell's and Brian Hubbard's bowing was imprinted on my brain, even though it was a mystery in many ways... it was obvious from looking at it that they were doing accents on downbows.

And so I imitated the traditional stuff I had as best as I could.  Many years later, after starting to fiddle after 18 years playing, then a 15 year hiatus, I started looking on the internet for Old Time fiddling stuff, eventully found the Fiddle Forum, where Dave Reiner showed up with a bowing thread over here, with an initial post much like his initial post on this thread.  And that confirmed to be that the Sawshuffle (1-1-1-3-1-1) and Smoothshuffle (3-3-1-1) patterns I had worked out mostly from trying to emulate the bowing Brian Hubbard was getting WERE INDEED traditional patterns used in Old Time and in other genres as well.

Oh yeah.... another aspect that affected my fiddling "worldview".

The language aspect.

When I was learning German, I was not THAT interested in other Americans opinion of my German accent and usage.  I was interested in what GERMANS thought of my German! If they were happy with it, then I was satisfied.   And in the same way, I'm really the most interested in how people who grew up with Old Time like my fiddling.  If someone who grew up with it likes it and thinks it sounds "Old Time", then I'm satisfied.  Because to me, they are the "native speakers" of Old Time.

In some ways I've actually backed off on the picky aspects of this, but it still has one aspect that's very important to me. 

In my performances for seniors, I am deliberately trying to provoke childhood memories of music in people my parents age.  Many of them had fiddling parents, grandparents, or uncles.  And one lady is German.

The German lady gets happy when I sing in German, because it sounds right enough to her to trigger childhood memories.  And my fiddling seems to do the same thing for people from Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Missouri whose parents came out to California during the Dust Bowl... the "accent" is authentically Old Time enough to press the memory buttons and evoke the right memories.  That's kind of odd, since I never tried to imitate the fiddling in those states, but I was influenced by Appalachian hornpipey fiddlers like Franklin George that got a similar sound.

A German accent may sound mysteriously different, but there are actually specific things they do to produce the different sounds that you can imitate and analyze and reproduce.... just like there are specific things the old timers did with a bow that you can imitate and analyze and reproduce.

So... it's a different way of looking at Old Time fiddling, and bowing.  I don't really expect everyone to think like that.  But I see people like Brad Leftwich, Erynn Marshall, Bruce Molsky, Bruce Greene and others who spent quality time with oldtimers as having an approach to the music that I respect and want to learn from.... in effect, they "apprenticed" themselves to some of the "masters" of Old Time fiddling.  And they learned some REALLY COOL STUFF!!!

 

 

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 03/05/2013 21:49:45

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2013:  22:14:29

Thought:

Bowing lore is passed on from person-to-person two different ways these days:

Bowing workshops and private lessons.

If someone offers a bowing workshop, people with all kinds of fiddling and bowing approaches are going to show up.

Given the numbers that show up HERE.... I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people who show up in bowing workshops don't have an "anywhichway" approach.

What are the chances, if someone has a very different bowing approach, that you are going to convert them to using your approach in a matter of hours??? NOT VERY GOOD!!!  Especially if they've been using that approach for years!

(Has anyone else ever taught a music student that had gotten a head start with a DIY approach?  Was it tough??? Yeah, I thought so!!!)

In such a situation, I'm surmising that fiddlers presenting the workshop learn to be VERY non-judgmental and very diplomatic, and try and give the person something that will FIT INTO THEIR present bowing style.... after all, they've paid good money to get SOMETHING.

And some patterns CAN be switched around to work in upbowing and therefore also work in an anywhichway style.

So I think the presenter is going to be offering "ingredients" to add spice to your present bowing style, rather than trying to teach a whole approach.  There is just a limit to what is actually DOABLE in such a situation.

In contrast, if you are taking lessons on a regular basis, the teacher could impart much more to you.  If they are having a hard time "getting" your approach, you have a chance to try different examples.... and eventually it could click.  Especially with a younger student.

Brittany Haas took lessons from Bruce Molsky.... there's a video of them playing together... and she's matching his bowing stroke for stroke.

Genevieve Koestler must have gotten detailed instruction from her dad, Gary Harrison, because on a video of them, she also matches his bowing stroke for stroke.

Anybody taking lessons from Brad Leftwich????  What's the approach he's teaching you???

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 03/05/2013 22:20:24

IdleHands - Posted - 03/06/2013:  05:44:46

I just know that playing things backwards and forwards makes you a good bower. And its my opinion that bowing things backwards should be practiced, not avoided. I also know that its not impossible accent upbows because of gravity.

hokelore - Posted - 03/06/2013:  07:26:08

<>

It's been some years now, but I used to go to some group lessons at Brad's house once a month. The approach was watch and listen, and bring a recording device. One smart person video recorded some of the sessions. He did place a lot of emphasis on patterns as interchangeable building blocks, but tunes were always used as a vehicle to learn them. He would teach a pattern, then a tune, take a break, then another tune. For an additional fee, there was a second, more advanced session after lunch, but after two hours, my brain was numb, so I never went to those. Every so often there would be a review class, where he would teach a couple of tunes, and encourage us to apply the various patterns.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/06/2013:  13:11:26

Thanks for sharing that, Tim!

tonyelder - Posted - 03/06/2013:  15:49:16

quote:

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Originally posted by rcc



(I don't believe I've gotten sucked back into this thread.  But I can't let one pass...)

Pogo,

I *have* met Brad Leftwich a number of times and have talked to him about bowing and his teaching methods.

He uses patterns as a teaching tool.  He often picks tunes to teach or bowings with a tune that fit well with patterns.  But he's doing that to quickly and efficiently communicate bowing.  You don't have a whole lot of time in most workshops.  That limits the complexity of the tunes you can teach and the detail you can dive into.  So he consciously picks tunes and/or bowings for the tune that make it faster and easier to teach ... and learn.  That way the students get a complete tune with reasonable bowing and some focused exposure to a bowing pattern or two.

He doesn't play that way.  Sometimes he doesn't bow the tune the same way he taught it.  Near as I can tell, he learns tunes like every other top fiddle player I know of.  He plays it and then fixes what's broken.  In the past, he did break things down into patterns.  I know others who have too.   Now they all just listen and play.

Brad's advice on learning fiddle is pretty much the same as every other top fiddle player I've talked to.  He's a big proponent of listening and re-listening to recordings for example.

Now his playing style is very clean and straight-ahead.  I don't think he messes with fine timing a whole lot or ventures much into stranger harmonies.  That gives him something of a reputation.  I'm sure that when some people play with him, they'll avoid some variations, harmonies, etc. and stick to the more straight-ahead stuff.

But he's not a pattern downbower.  He's a listen to the source recording, play the tune and tweak whatever doesn't seem right bower.

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Shall I?   ....ahhh... what the hey....

Thanks Ray. I had a similar experience with another well know fiddler (placed first at Galax and even lives in Galax), and they pretty much told me (personally - face to face) the exact same thing. That was the same person who also told me that Brad used to be called the "bow nazi" - BUT they went on to say he is not nearly as radical as he used to be - comments similar to yours.

I could almost copy and paste your comment, and not need to change anything but the name to tell my story. 

I had another instructor teaching advanced classes at the same event say pretty much the same thing.

I'm not denying they play tunes using patterns... I'm talking about what they have to say about their attitude, the comments they made to me about what they say they do. 

I guess I could have misunderstood them. But none of it was said in passing.  

And a good friend told me that Bruce Molsky has pretty much said the same thing to them (that was told to me long before I asked the above folks). 

rcc - Posted - 03/06/2013:  16:03:49

I've been to a lot of workshops in the past 7-8 years. I've found that the style varies by teacher and class level.



Two major approaches I've seen are:



Some folks will break down a tune into pieces and show you notes and bowing. The pieces tend to be phrase by phrase. Bruce Molsky teaches this way as do many others. I'd say most people teach this way.



On the other end, folks like Rafe Stefanini will play the tune, break it up but rely on you to pick up what he's showing you.



Both look to see if the class is getting it, will break things up into smaller pieces if not and Rafe is particularly memorable because if the physical space permits, he'll walk around the room and spend time in front of each student so you get a really good look and listen to how he's playing the tune.



I've found both approaches work if the teacher is good.



From what I remember (I took workshops with Brad a few years in a row at Swannanoa), at the intermediate levels, Brad will pick tunes that have fewer more regular bowing patterns in them.  But in the more advanced classes, it feels like one of Bruce's classes. The bowing just is what is is. I remember one time there was a string crossing in a particular place where apparently many fiddlers would do something different.  It was a Tommy Jarrell tune and that's how Tommy played it so that's how he was teaching it to us.

The real luxury is a private lesson though. Once you get to a more advanced level, you can work at a greater level of detail one-on-one than most teachers seem comfortable with in a workshop setting. There's been a few exceptions to that but those were cases where the students asked the teacher to show them more about specific things. So you have to know what to ask for, the teacher has to be comfortable teaching it and the majority of the class has to want it.

Edited by - rcc on 03/06/2013 16:08:43

nickbachman - Posted - 03/07/2013:  15:08:14

quote:

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Originally posted by rcc

... I remember one time there was a string crossing in a particular place where apparently many fiddlers would do something different.  It was a Tommy Jarrell tune and that's how Tommy played it so that's how he was teaching it to us.

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Oh cool! Do you remember what the tune was, and which part? Just curious, sounds neat!

tonyelder - Posted - 03/08/2013:  08:06:44

Well, obviously I can speak for Ray about what it was he saw, but -

But I thought it would be worth pointing to a video I've enjoyed watching, part of which shows TJ teaching Alice Gerrand how to play a string crossing he uses on John Brown's Dream. I like 'em. You can catch it here - starting at around 7 minute mark:

folkstreams.net/film,153 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/08/2013:  10:15:54

I opened the link real fast...looks like great stuff...I can't wait until I get the chance to watch it! Thanks, Tony!

rcc - Posted - 03/08/2013:  12:34:13

I forget the tune (although I know it wasn't John Brown's Dream). But it was an upbow slur across strings. Tommy slurred across strings all the time. A very different approach to bowing from the people who try hard to never slur across a string.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/08/2013:  14:50:47

quote:

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Originally posted by rcc

I forget the tune (although I know it wasn't John Brown's Dream). But it was an upbow slur across strings. Tommy slurred across strings all the time. A very different approach to bowing from the people who try hard to never slur across a string.

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One thing to remember- much (perhaps all?) of that slurring across strings was "bow rocking"... very often on a unison.  It's for an effect, not a melody note change, and you don't have to move the bow very far to get it.  I find it much easier to do that, because you don't have to synch the left hand fingers with it.  If your timing is a bit off, a bit wild, so what?  You won't be out of kilter with the left hand, because it's not moving anyway. In fact, the way Tommy did it always did seem a bit wild, but that added to the effect... kind of like an acoustic chorus effect.

IdleHands - Posted - 03/08/2013:  17:40:13

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by rcc

I forget the tune (although I know it wasn't John Brown's Dream). But it was an upbow slur across strings. Tommy slurred across strings all the time. A very different approach to bowing from the people who try hard to never slur across a string.

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One thing to remember- much (perhaps all?) of that slurring across strings was "bow rocking"... very often on a unison.  It's for an effect, not a melody note change, and you don't have to move the bow very far to get it.  I find it much easier to do that, because you don't have to synch the left hand fingers with it.  If your timing is a bit off, a bit wild, so what?  You won't be out of kilter with the left hand, because it's not moving anyway. In fact, the way Tommy did it always did seem a bit wild, but that added to the effect... kind of like an acoustic chorus effect.

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I do a lot of slurred string crossings just in pursuite of basic melody notes, not as an effect.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/08/2013:  19:37:13

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by rcc

I forget the tune (although I know it wasn't John Brown's Dream). But it was an upbow slur across strings. Tommy slurred across strings all the time. A very different approach to bowing from the people who try hard to never slur across a string.

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One thing to remember- much (perhaps all?) of that slurring across strings was "bow rocking"... very often on a unison.  It's for an effect, not a melody note change, and you don't have to move the bow very far to get it.  I find it much easier to do that, because you don't have to synch the left hand fingers with it.  If your timing is a bit off, a bit wild, so what?  You won't be out of kilter with the left hand, because it's not moving anyway. In fact, the way Tommy did it always did seem a bit wild, but that added to the effect... kind of like an acoustic chorus effect.

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I do a lot of slurred string crossings just in pursuite of basic melody notes, not as an effect.

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Well, so do a lot of people... especially Irish Trad fiddlers, apparently- if they aren't from the northern counties that show more Scottish influence.

For most Old Time tunes, I feel no need to except as a bow-rocking effect, but the first part of Ragtime Annie shows some promise that melodic way with a particular pattern.  Once I get it under control.. who knows where I might use it?

And if I get up-bowed Durang's under control....

"Complete Bowing Mastery" might be nearer than I had thought!

rcc - Posted - 03/08/2013:  20:15:15

Michael,

Tommy slurred the melody across the strings all the time. He was comfortable doing it so he did. Now it may be that one reason why he was comfortable with it was that the bow-rocking he did got him used to changing strings on one bow stroke.

Honestly, I never thought of that before and would have to think about it a while to see if it makes sense.

But if you look at the old fiddlers, some were comfortable slurring the melody across strings and others weren't. It's just one of those things. Personally, I think it's a matter of whether they were willing to put the work into getting good at it.

In the realm of further conjecture, from what I hear a lot of the "don't slur across strings" influence on modern players came from LA. I may be wrong but I'd put that down to the influence of Earl Collins and Tom Sauber. Again, guessing but I wonder if that's because not slurring across strings made it easier for Earl (and then Tom) to play those tunes really fast.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/08/2013:  22:18:12

quote:

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Originally posted by rcc

Michael,



Tommy slurred the melody across the strings all the time. He was comfortable doing it so he did. Now it may be that one reason why he was comfortable with it was that the bow-rocking he did got him used to changing strings on one bow stroke.



Honestly, I never thought of that before and would have to think about it a while to see if it makes sense.



But if you look at the old fiddlers, some were comfortable slurring the melody across strings and others weren't. It's just one of those things. Personally, I think it's a matter of whether they were willing to put the work into getting good at it.



In the realm of further conjecture, from what I hear a lot of the "don't slur across strings" influence on modern players came from LA. I may be wrong but I'd put that down to the influence of Earl Collins and Tom Sauber. Again, guessing but I wonder if that's because not slurring across strings made it easier for Earl (and then Tom) to play those tunes really fast.



 

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Well, Tom definitely influenced me, and Earl influenced Tom.  And I've noticed recently, at least on tunes I'm familiar with, that on tunes with no slurred string crossings, I can REALLY play fast with the bow, to where the left hand is my limitation, not my bowing arm.

Be advised, that if it was true of Earl Collins, it was probably true of other Missouri Ozark style fiddlers as well. 

Now that I've started jamming with Bluegrassers, I find that valuable- most of the older players don't push the tempo, but every now and then a young whippersnapper WILL.   And at that point, it's good if you can keep up.  Also, if you can play fast, playing at moderate tempos seems so relaxed and easy that you feel like you've got all the time in the world to play with the timing of notes.

Tom Sauber also plays Bluegrass.

  And yes, I can totally see that the slurred bow-rocking could act as an exercise for melodic slurred string crossing.

Another factor in slurred string crossing-

if you use one pattern a LOT, even all the time, you are going to run into places where in order to maintain the pattern, you have to do a slurred string crossing.  When I was a young, new, fiddler, I DID use Nashville Shuffle nearly all the time, at least on hoedowns, because my first fiddling mentor did.  And I think I did a lot of slurred string crossings to maintain the pattern. 

BUT once I got tired of just Nashville, and started adding other patterns, I discovered that they also made it easier to avoid the slurred string crossings, since the direction changes come in different places to match the string changes.  And since it also adds variety, and also makes it easier to play fast, it's really hard to make myself MISS the slurred string changes.  For one thing, I find bowings for new tunes fall into place easier.

Another factor is groove.  I find a poorly executed slurred string change throws my groove off.  And, frankly, I think I might not be the only one... I suspect some of the rhythmic sloppiness I hear in some Old Time fiddlers is due to poorly executed slurred string changes.

AND there may be a tonal price to pay too.  I find it easy to NOT get clean tone at the beginning of the second note in the slur.  And to me, THAT is a deal-breaker- a slur is SUPPOSED TO BE SMOOTH!!!!  If the second note of a slur starts out raggedy sounding, WHY BOTHER???

Now, in spite of all those objections, I AM started to do slurred melodic string changes again.

But so far, the only way I can do it cleanly enough for my taste and with the right groove for my taste is to do it VERY SLOWLY... but it's slowly speeding up and getting more comfortable.   But it's taking a long time!

IdleHands - Posted - 03/09/2013:  08:47:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

  And I've noticed recently, at least on tunes I'm familiar with, that on tunes with no slurred string crossings, I can REALLY play fast with the bow, 

Maybe you just need to pratice slurred string crossings more.  

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/09/2013:  15:57:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by rcc

Michael,



Tommy slurred the melody across the strings all the time. He was comfortable doing it so he did. Now it may be that one reason why he was comfortable with it was that the bow-rocking he did got him used to changing strings on one bow stroke.



Honestly, I never thought of that before and would have to think about it a while to see if it makes sense.



But if you look at the old fiddlers, some were comfortable slurring the melody across strings and others weren't. It's just one of those things. Personally, I think it's a matter of whether they were willing to put the work into getting good at it.



In the realm of further conjecture, from what I hear a lot of the "don't slur across strings" influence on modern players came from LA. I may be wrong but I'd put that down to the influence of Earl Collins and Tom Sauber. Again, guessing but I wonder if that's because not slurring across strings made it easier for Earl (and then Tom) to play those tunes really fast.



 

---

I find being able to slur across strings as a useful tool. IMO, slurring across stings as helping the ability to play fast; helps control the rhythmic flow and groove. I agree it's not the same as drone or bow rocking. Bruce Molskey, James Leva, Rafe Stefanini, Dirk Powell all use this, as they all taught me some specific phrases in tunes employing that. Part is how it affects the direct sound, but some is how it affects what comes immediately after. Of course sometimes, as they stated, that's just how they worked it out; it isn't particularly significant to the overall feel, and other options exist. I am pretty sure in times I've sat  with Tom Sauber or Brad, they also used some cross string slurs. I can't imagine Brad, with his analysis, and dedication to getting it true to source, not doing it. - I don't ever recall any of them really dwelling on or teaching in prescriptive "patterns", nor really advocating that approach; certainly not to the intensity of this thread. As well, their context of downbowers was separate from pattern bowing approach.

I think sloppiness comes largely from not paying attention to the rhythmic groove, flow. Just going for playing notes and bow changes as trying to "time" following set of instructions. Don't think it matters if the instructions have been separated out as exercises, formulas and rote memorized (or rote internalized). Don't think it makes much difference if it was visually watching someone, reading or by ear - if it's just put into the context of instructions and formulas. Another thing mentioned, this idea of a pattern (like NS) getting tiresome and boring, and the "need" to break out of the "pattern", put in another one, to make it not boring, tiresome or spice it up. From a focusing on following instructions and formulas, I suppose that makes sense; one would find it a bit boring after a while. On the other hand, I've heard folks that just focus on the rhythmic groove (not worrying about any bowing pattern), and yet might indeed use a bowing that has little variance (could be described as a pattern) despite that has an untiring rhythmic feel. IMO it comes from within the player first, and then how they've worked out (problem solved) all aspects of the articulation to generate the feel and flow.

Not saying that a pattern approach won't work for some folks. I see it much like scale and arpeggio exercises; separating the exercises out of context as learning tools. They can be useful for some folks, but they don't always make a better player, nor actually create a great groove. I think it's the context of how the exercises used; certainly if the players is starting with a fine understanding of the articulation and groove it's one thing; but it's another lacking that, if the instruction/formula will lead them to it. There are other alternatives that have worked quite well for other folks through the ages, that never required such a left brain approach.

tonyelder - Posted - 03/09/2013:  19:24:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by rcc

I forget the tune (although I know it wasn't John Brown's Dream). But it was an upbow slur across strings. Tommy slurred across strings all the time. A very different approach to bowing from the people who try hard to never slur across a string.

---

One thing to remember- much (perhaps all?) of that slurring across strings was "bow rocking"... very often on a unison.  It's for an effect, not a melody note change, and you don't have to move the bow very far to get it.  I find it much easier to do that, because you don't have to synch the left hand fingers with it.  If your timing is a bit off, a bit wild, so what?  You won't be out of kilter with the left hand, because it's not moving anyway. In fact, the way Tommy did it always did seem a bit wild, but that added to the effect... kind of like an acoustic chorus effect.

---

pogo - did you watch the video clip I offered? If not, please, go and watch it. I won't ask you to waste your time and watch the whole thing. Start at around the 7 minute mark - like I said.

What he is showing / teaching Alice is not just bow rocking. The way I see it - he is playing the melody!  ...it's not unison, it's not drones, it's melody - a sequence of notes that change. And notice the teaching style he uses...

Edited by - tonyelder on 03/09/2013 19:27:02

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/09/2013:  22:45:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by rcc

I forget the tune (although I know it wasn't John Brown's Dream). But it was an upbow slur across strings. Tommy slurred across strings all the time. A very different approach to bowing from the people who try hard to never slur across a string.

---

One thing to remember- much (perhaps all?) of that slurring across strings was "bow rocking"... very often on a unison.  It's for an effect, not a melody note change, and you don't have to move the bow very far to get it.  I find it much easier to do that, because you don't have to synch the left hand fingers with it.  If your timing is a bit off, a bit wild, so what?  You won't be out of kilter with the left hand, because it's not moving anyway. In fact, the way Tommy did it always did seem a bit wild, but that added to the effect... kind of like an acoustic chorus effect.

---

pogo - did you watch the video clip I offered? If not, please, go and watch it. I won't ask you to waste your time and watch the whole thing. Start at around the 7 minute mark - like I said.

What he is showing / teaching Alice is not just bow rocking. The way I see it - he is playing the melody!  ...it's not unison, it's not drones, it's melody - a sequence of notes that change. And notice the teaching style he uses...

 

---

I listened... yes... very interesting segment... I've bookmarked it... I need to work on that when I can actually play along- too late now!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/09/2013:  22:49:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

  And I've noticed recently, at least on tunes I'm familiar with, that on tunes with no slurred string crossings, I can REALLY play fast with the bow, 

Maybe you just need to pratice slurred string crossings more.  

---

I practice it plenty... and it is coming along.... but it's still not fast... these bowing things take time.  Getting a pattern up to speed often takes me years... this could as well.... it's just as hard as learning a new pattern.  You have to hard wire it into your subconscious.  And I have other things I need to practice and maintain as well.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/10/2013:  06:08:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by rcc

I forget the tune (although I know it wasn't John Brown's Dream). But it was an upbow slur across strings. Tommy slurred across strings all the time. A very different approach to bowing from the people who try hard to never slur across a string.

---

One thing to remember- much (perhaps all?) of that slurring across strings was "bow rocking"... very often on a unison.  It's for an effect, not a melody note change, and you don't have to move the bow very far to get it.  I find it much easier to do that, because you don't have to synch the left hand fingers with it.  If your timing is a bit off, a bit wild, so what?  You won't be out of kilter with the left hand, because it's not moving anyway. In fact, the way Tommy did it always did seem a bit wild, but that added to the effect... kind of like an acoustic chorus effect.

---

pogo - did you watch the video clip I offered? If not, please, go and watch it. I won't ask you to waste your time and watch the whole thing. Start at around the 7 minute mark - like I said.

What he is showing / teaching Alice is not just bow rocking. The way I see it - he is playing the melody!  ...it's not unison, it's not drones, it's melody - a sequence of notes that change. And notice the teaching style he uses...

 

---

About the teaching style he uses.... that's the best one.  That's how Tom Sauber showed me "Syncoshuffle".

Words are a pretty poor substitute for reality.  I just ate an apple.  The word "apple" doesn't crunch, isn't sweet, isn't mottled red and yellow on the outside and creamy white on the inside (it was a "Gala"). And it doesn't have any taste. 

1-2-1-1-2 is a poor substitute for the reality of Syncoshuffle.  If that was all Tom Sauber had given me, I might still be scratching my head.  But maybe not.. MAYBE I would have caught it.

Written descriptions of bowing patterns are iffy like that.... MAYBE the person on the other end will decipher them, maybe not.  Live instruction is much more of a sure thing.  That's why it usually costs so much.

And Tommy can't give us live instruction any more.... not for any price.

And for me to show some bowing to you in person would involve airfare, or an awful lot of gasoline and tire wear.

Likewise with groundhogpeggy. 

"Words are cheap".... 1-2-1-1-1-2 could be considered a word of sorts about bowing.  And it IS cheap. That IS actually a plus, in a way.

Videos are a little more expensive.

THAT particular segment is priceless.  THANKS for pointing that out...TWICE! ()

IdleHands - Posted - 03/10/2013:  07:01:26

I dont know mike, I think the numbers do a pretty good job of representing a pattern. They are pretty precise, rhythmically.

tonyelder - Posted - 03/10/2013:  10:35:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo





1-2-1-1-2 is a poor substitute for the reality of Syncoshuffle.  If that was all Tom Sauber had given me, I might still be scratching my head.  But maybe not.. MAYBE I would have caught it.

Written descriptions of bowing patterns are iffy like that.... MAYBE the person on the other end will decipher them, maybe not.  Live instruction is much more of a sure thing.  That's why it usually costs so much.

---

Would any one be able to pick it up just as easy and perhaps quicker by ear - than trying to cipher "1-2-1-1-1-2"?

And the other issue: It was taught as part of the tune. No names, no homework.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/10/2013:  20:16:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo





1-2-1-1-2 is a poor substitute for the reality of Syncoshuffle.  If that was all Tom Sauber had given me, I might still be scratching my head.  But maybe not.. MAYBE I would have caught it.

Written descriptions of bowing patterns are iffy like that.... MAYBE the person on the other end will decipher them, maybe not.  Live instruction is much more of a sure thing.  That's why it usually costs so much.

---

Would any one be able to pick it up just as easy and perhaps quicker by ear - than trying to cipher "1-2-1-1-1-2"?

And the other issue: It was taught as part of the tune. No names, no homework.

 

---

Probably.  But the deal is, that some patterns are widespread enough that you could go to almost any jam and say:

"Show me Nashville Shuffle", and someone will show it to you... or even "Show me Georgia Shuffle", and they could show it to you.  But Syncoshuffle isn't quite as common as either of those, although now it's in a few videos and that may be changing.  In the absence of a video from me, groundhogpeggy still managed to wrap her brain around them enough to actually do a video of her own!!!  I was impressed!

Teaching as part of a tune is good, yes, but part of the deal is that these licks aren't locked into one tune.  Tommy Jarrell did an opening lick at the beginning of most of his tunes that was very distinctive, and really caught my attention.

I'm finally getting it, and it's starting to spread through many of my tunes.  Without a name, how do I talk about this Jarrellistic lick that's cropping up all kinds of places???

What's good for the goose is good for the gander- if Nashville Shuffle can have a name, why not Syncoshuffle?

Is there something written in stone that says that only Sawstroke, Nashville, and Georgia Shuffles can have names?

But obviously, yes there are learning styles, and some people would pretty much have to learn it in the context of a tune.

And, perhaps if I'd learned it in the context of a tune, it wouldn't have taken so long to apply it.

Thanks to Dave Vittek, I could at least hear Offset Nashville in the context of a tune, which I played badly for many years until some  bowing hold modifications made it more doable.

Part of the method to my madness was that the first four patterns Dave mentioned at the beginning of the thread were named patterns... but the next couple were less well known and also didn't have traditional names that had any currency.  So I I made up some descriptive names based on the traditional names of the traditional patterns.  And they seem to be catching on with some.

But really it's not either/or.... it's both/and. 

Oh YEAH.... the way I learned German:

1. FIRST... we learned the grammar structure in the context of a sentence by memorization.

2. THEN... we did drills where we substituted different words so we could apply the structure in different contexts.

The A-L-M language method was designed so that grammatical terms were OPTIONAL... the important thing was learning the structure, not the words for it.

And yet, there were contexts where having a term for the structure being learned was useful.... but maybe more for those that intended to major in German.  For those who just wanted to speak a little German so they could use it in travel, it was optional.

Can you see the parallels?

Anyway, these bowing threads have ALWAYS been optional....people who DON'T WANT to hear about bowing terms DO NOT HAVE to read them...  There will be NO GRADE... this thread is AUDIT ONLY!!!

And probably mostly only interesting for bowing geeks....

well, actually also for people who like to whine about them!!!

IdleHands - Posted - 03/10/2013:  20:21:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

well, actually also for people who like to whine about them!!!

---

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/10/2013:  20:22:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

I dont know mike, I think the numbers do a pretty good job of representing a pattern. They are pretty precise, rhythmically.

---

Precise, yes.  Intuitive, no.

Sort of the equivalent of a DOS command prompt  or Linux "Terminal" as far as lack of  "user friendliness".

IdleHands - Posted - 03/10/2013:  20:27:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

I dont know mike, I think the numbers do a pretty good job of representing a pattern. They are pretty precise, rhythmically.

---

Precise, yes.  Intuitive, no.

Sort of the equivalent of a DOS command prompt  or Linux "Terminal" as far as lack of  "user friendliness".

 

---

But they are precise once you take the take to interpret them correctly, like learning a language?  do you know what that's like?

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/10/2013:  22:24:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

I dont know mike, I think the numbers do a pretty good job of representing a pattern. They are pretty precise, rhythmically.

---

Precise, yes.  Intuitive, no.

Sort of the equivalent of a DOS command prompt  or Linux "Terminal" as far as lack of  "user friendliness".

 

---

But they are precise once you take the take to interpret them correctly, like learning a language?  do you know what that's like?

---

I do.  But then I could also use the DOS prompt, and have made SOME attempts to learn to use Linux Terminal.

I was a language geek before I became a bowing geek!  And I tried hard to become a computer geek, really I did.

But I can also recognize when something goes beyond what non-geeks can easily tolerate.  I've been known to complain to Linux geeks that expecting newbies to learn the Linux Terminal is unrealistic, and to the degree that a Linux version ("distro" in Linux-speak) forces newbs to use the Terminal, that Linux version is "broken".

There are far more reports of bowing notation causing headaches than causing people to learn shuffles.

Groundhogpeggy seems to be an exception.

So I'll stick by my statement that bowing notation isn't very user friendly, at least for non-geeks.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/11/2013:  06:48:40

Well I sure cant get all of those bowing patterns, but I can see they do exist for anyone willing to examine them. They could definitely help my fiddling, because my bow gets tripped up...actually I do beleive that's my main problem in fiddling...I go along good enough and then my bow gets tripped up and I waste a bunch of the tune trying to recuperate and not crash, completely focused on that alone instead of the heart and soul of the tune...the music goes away and it turns into a stumbling session of athletic feats: can she stay with it, or will she lose it? That's not music anymore, that's a daring circus act, like tight rope walking. For me, that's lsing the tune. From what little, very little, I've been able to set into my muscle memory in the bwing arm that can instinctively kick in to provide good transitions where my playing needs them now, like to go from Nashville shuffle to endings, beginnings, or variations...what little I've been able to set into my bwing arm so that it becomes like some gear shifting that's easily done where necessary...I can see this is my answer...this can help me stay with the tune and not suddenly have to leave it to stumble around and have to avoid crashing. Learning the bowings is a terrible headache...I hate that art of it. But I have seen help in my wn playing from what little I've been able to learn...not just learn, but get down to a usable thing.

IdleHands - Posted - 03/11/2013:  06:56:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

I dont know mike, I think the numbers do a pretty good job of representing a pattern. They are pretty precise, rhythmically.

---

Precise, yes.  Intuitive, no.

Sort of the equivalent of a DOS command prompt  or Linux "Terminal" as far as lack of  "user friendliness".

 

---

But they are precise once you take the take to interpret them correctly, like learning a language?  do you know what that's like?

---

I do.  But then I could also use the DOS prompt, and have made SOME attempts to learn to use Linux Terminal.

I was a language geek before I became a bowing geek!  And I tried hard to become a computer geek, really I did.

But I can also recognize when something goes beyond what non-geeks can easily tolerate.  I've been known to complain to Linux geeks that expecting newbies to learn the Linux Terminal is unrealistic, and to the degree that a Linux version ("distro" in Linux-speak) forces newbs to use the Terminal, that Linux version is "broken".

There are far more reports of bowing notation causing headaches than causing people to learn shuffles.

Groundhogpeggy seems to be an exception.

So I'll stick by my statement that bowing notation isn't very user friendly, at least for non-geeks.

 

---

Yeah, but its actually quick and easy if you put in the time to master it.  Everything is hard at first.  And its pretty great for forums and other lo fi media.

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 12/13/2013:  22:24:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

 

I guess it's just a matter of preferences. You can prefer to plan your bowing so that backwardness is avoided, or you can develop the physical coordination to where backward bowing doesnt trip you up. It's a matter of personal propensity. Are you thinky, or do-y?

 

Our current society urges to orient towards the thinky.  But being thinky makes us susceptible to delusion.  Mental simulacrum of reality can be useful, but we can also become susceptible to delusions.  Reality is where the rubber meets the road.

---

Doinky.   Maybe thinoy at times.  

Lee M - Posted - 12/14/2013:  13:55:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

 

I guess it's just a matter of preferences. You can prefer to plan your bowing so that backwardness is avoided, or you can develop the physical coordination to where backward bowing doesnt trip you up. It's a matter of personal propensity. Are you thinky, or do-y?

 

Our current society urges to orient towards the thinky.  But being thinky makes us susceptible to delusion.  Mental simulacrum of reality can be useful, but we can also become susceptible to delusions.  Reality is where the rubber meets the road.

---

Doinky.   Maybe thinoy at times.  

---

So.... are you saying that it took you from March of this year until now to digest the complete thread??? Well, there IS a lot to thinky about.

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/14/2013:  14:35:40

Wow what a great thread. I've only barely started reading it.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/14/2013:  18:55:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

 

I guess it's just a matter of preferences. You can prefer to plan your bowing so that backwardness is avoided, or you can develop the physical coordination to where backward bowing doesnt trip you up. It's a matter of personal propensity. Are you thinky, or do-y?

 

Our current society urges to orient towards the thinky.  But being thinky makes us susceptible to delusion.  Mental simulacrum of reality can be useful, but we can also become susceptible to delusions.  Reality is where the rubber meets the road.

---

Doinky.   Maybe thinoy at times.  

---

So.... are you saying that it took you from March of this year until now to digest the complete thread??? Well, there IS a lot to thinky about.

---

I think he's saying "I'm giving this an end-of-the-year thread bump so it won't go to the archives because bowing threads are such entertaining parody-fodder!"

OTJunky - Posted - 12/15/2013:  06:59:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

 

I think he's saying "I'm giving this an end-of-the-year thread bump so it won't go to the archives because bowing threads are such entertaining parody-fodder!"

---

I agree - except about the "entertaining"  part of it.

But you're probably right that Humbled finds it entertaining.

--OTJ

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/15/2013:  07:24:22

Hot button!  And everytime this comes around I see the constant evolution of my bowing-- both on thought and in deed, so to speak.  Anybody else? It's kinda like one of those ruler grow charts for kids...bow grow chart!

Lee M - Posted - 12/15/2013:  07:36:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

Hot button!  And everytime this comes around I see the constant evolution of my bowing-- both on thought and in deed, so to speak.  Anybody else? It's kinda like one of those ruler grow charts for kids...bow grow chart!

---

Ha!  The more I fiddle the SHORTER my bow needs to be.  NOt sure if that is good or bad.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/15/2013:  09:18:09

I think that's, good!

pdfarrell - Posted - 12/15/2013:  09:20:14

Thanks Humbled for digging this up. Woke in the middle of the night thinking of little d's and u's. Today tried a little 1-1-1-3-1-1. A bit of the thinky and a bit of dooey.

Edited by - pdfarrell on 12/15/2013 09:21:18

fiddlinsteudel - Posted - 12/15/2013:  13:11:37

There's a lot in the thread, did anyone every post examples of all these bowings?

Edited by - fiddlinsteudel on 12/15/2013 13:11:59

Lee M - Posted - 12/15/2013:  13:32:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel

 

There's a lot in the thread, did anyone every post examples of all these bowings?

---

I'm with you on this one.. Maybe there should be a Hangout protocol that says "put your bow where your mouth is".  

tonyelder - Posted - 12/15/2013:  21:09:31

On the surface that sounds reasonable. But, as a challenge, I'm not sure what would come of it...

Obviously, everyone is at a different place along the learning curve. Could anyone truly say that their fiddling would be best example of anything (besides themselves)?

And how many think anyone would be willing to say that - now that they have listened - they may have been persuaded to think differently? I'm not going to say it could never happen, but... really?

Obviously, there are a good number of mp3 files uploaded by folks who have been a part of these discussions. I would encourage folks to go have a listen.

But I doubt any of that would change many opinions (if any).

MikeyBoy - Posted - 12/15/2013:  21:20:15

I was thinking about what was said back on page 17, and though at first I thought he was way off base, I can see now he might actually have a point.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/15/2013:  23:34:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlinsteudel

 

There's a lot in the thread, did anyone every post examples of all these bowings?

---

I'm with you on this one.. Maybe there should be a Hangout protocol that says "put your bow where your mouth is".  

---

I have sound files in my music section for most of the patterns I use EXCEPT Syncoshuffle, and also did a bowing podcast that focuses on Syncoshuffle.

I STILL don't have video capability though.   Well, I have video capability.... but I only have the memory  in my computer to do VIDEO or AUDIO, not both.

And for a bowing video, I think it would be sorta kinda useful to have BOTH!

Actually, even if I had both, I'd probably get TWICE the recording jitters, so it wouldn't be fun, it'd be WORK, and I'd have to CHARGE you for viewing it!

Oh yeah.... if you want video, groundhogpeggy did a FINE job in one demoing Sawshuffle, Smoothshuffle, and Syncoshuffle!

And red desert violin has a bowing video with all or most of them too.

Dave Reiner who started this thread has been quiet lately... I think he's still working on his fiddle bowing book, which will almost certainly have an accompanying DVD.  So he's putting his bow where his mouth, or rather keyboard has been... but it'll cost ya- when it comes out!