fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/24/2013:  13:00:49

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

Fiddlepogo - I'd disagree with you on several points. Eck Robertson was certainly not the only old time fiddler recorded in New York. Others would include Uncle Am Stuart, Samantha Bumgarner and Eva Davis (possibly the earliest "string band" to record), Fiddling Powers and Family (another candidate for earliest string band), Uncle Bunt Stephens, G.B. Grayson, Mellie Dunham, Charlie Poole (with Posey Rorer, Lonnie Austin and Odell Smith), Uncle Dave Macon (with Sid Harkreader), Al Hopkins and the Hillbillies (with Tony Alderman and Charlie Bowman), Emmett Lundy, and I'm sure many more.

Although some location recording was done in the acoustic era, it was difficult, and it was really the advent of electrical recording that encouraged trips like the one to Bristol (in fact whether the equipment would be portable was one of the concerns of the recording companies in adopting electrical recording). Hotel lobbies would be way too noisy for recording - I think they generally used ballrooms, or other meeting rooms - sometimes suites of rooms. Often not hotels to begin with. The Bristol sessions were held in a vacant room over a hat shop:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sessions

Although Eck Robertson was not quite 35 when he recorded, he was accompanied on two sides by Henry Gilliland, who was born in 1845. Other older fiddlers who made commercial records would include: Uncle Jimmy Thompson (b.1848), Uncle Am Stuart (b. 1853), Mellie Dunham (b. 1853), Fiddling John Carson (b. 1868), Allen Sisson (b.1873) - all older than or contemporary with Emmett Lundy (b. 1864) who also recorded two commercial sides. Older non-fiddler old time players would include banjo players Polk Miller (b. 1844) and of course Uncle Dave Macon (b. 1870).

Although they recorded some great music, I don't think the collectors represented in the Library of Congress were generally devotees of commercial country music, and sometimes hostile towards it. They often recorded tunes learned from commercial recordings and frequently failed to recognize songs learned from Carter Family records.

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Point taken about the New York recording... but still, that's reinforcing my basic premise, that the commercial recording setups weren't as accessible to an old fiddler in the mountains.

Yes, he was accompanied by Gilliland- but the recording execs apparently weren't that impressed with Gilliland- they wanted Robertson to record the following day without him.  And I can only guess, but I'm guessing the reason they did so was that they thought Eck's fiddling would be more likely to sell.

If the two of them had shown up at the Library of Congress if the recording effort had been in effect at the time, my guess is that they might have asked Gilliland to come back without Eck!!!

Thanks for pointing out the older players recorded on 78's- I may see if I can't find them to give them a listen... but I think the number is still small enough to be "the exception that proves the rule".

I don't think they had a prejudice against older fiddlers per se, but the recording locations required that a fiddler be able to travel... it's a known fact that as people age, more and more of them stay closer and closer to home.  And the recording execs weren't devotees of Old Time Country Music, and were familiar with other kinds of (what was then modern) popular music, and would have tended to judge Old Time musicians by those standards.

Now, for instance, cross tuning.  You don't hear much of it on 78 recordings, but you hear a LOT of it on Library of Congress recordings- I think that must have been by and large too alien and archaic sounding for people whose musical esthetic was formed by the pop and classical music of the era.

What you DO hear a lot of instead on the commercial 78's are fiddle rags and fiddle blues.  Aside from just choosing between fiddlers, I think they were encouraging individual fiddlers to trot out their more contemporary sounding tunes, and then faced with a choice of which to issue, had a bias towards the rags and blues.

Not that I have anything against fiddle rags and fiddle blues myself- great music, and I'm glad they were recorded- but you have to take the commercial 78 recordings AND the Library of Congress recordings TOGETHER to get a more accurate picture of the state of Old Time fiddling in about the 1920's (I think we can safely assume that nearly all the fiddlers recorded by the LOC would have been recordable 10 to 15 years earlier if anyone had thought to do it then.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/24/2013:  13:11:04

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

Wow. Three yawning faces! Tripling the efficacy of the response! Were you in debate club?

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As a matter of fact, no I wasn't.  You can "win" a debate, and still be wrong, just like a criminal with a good lawyer can "win" a court case.  So what??

I'm a bowing geek... I love that aspect of fiddling.

You seem to like debating for debating's sake... me?

Nah.

I think I'll go play some shuffley fiddle tunes!

IdleHands - Posted - 01/25/2013:  05:05:57

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

Wow. Three yawning faces! Tripling the efficacy of the response! Were you in debate club?

---

As a matter of fact, no I wasn't.  You can "win" a debate, and still be wrong, just like a criminal with a good lawyer can "win" a court case.  So what??

I'm a bowing geek... I love that aspect of fiddling.

You seem to like debating for debating's sake... me?

Nah.

I think I'll go play some shuffley fiddle tunes!

---

No.  I really think convincing people that accenting upbows is impossible and gravity shouldnt be challenged, and that patterns are the only way to get "that authentic sound" does them a disservice.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/25/2013:  12:14:36

You twist my words.

Accenting upbows isn't impossible, just more difficult.  Requires more practice.

In fact, some patterns DO require accents in both directions, and they are a good way to practice accenting in both directions (Nashville, Offset Nashville, Jingle Bells Shuffle).  But to make them sound even, you have to do what you have to do, and that may mean softening your downstroke accents as well as strengthening your upstroke accents.

Some patterns (Georgia Shuffle, Smoothshuffle, Sawshuffle) have all the accents in one direction- DOWN, since I'm a downbower.  And the effect is different... more extreme.

When I play "anywhichway" without reference to patterns,  I do accent whatever I have to accent.  But the result is gentler accents, and a more gentle style of playing.... more like using the bow to create a second singing voice.  Great for waltzes, airs, and fills when playing with a singer.

When I want to use my bow as a percussion instrument, THEN pattern downbowing ROCKS!!!

It has a more aggressive quality... more "yang" if I wanted to use eastern terminology.

Fiddle tune melody + drones + downbow shuffles = one man band = no accompaniment needed!!!

It's not just gravity... it's the difference between pushing an object and pulling an object.

WHY have 2WD cars gone to mostly front wheel drive?  Pulling an object makes it track better.

I have these carts I use to take gear to gigs. If I want to travel quickly, they behave better if I pull them.  If I push them, they tend to wander... I have to exert more force to control their direction.

On the rare occasion I have a heavy shopping cart when shopping, sometimes it's easier to get ahead of the cart and pull it through than to try and steer it through a small opening from behind.

The same principle operates with bowing.  Pushing from behind the bow (upstrokes) requires more control exerted as far as the bows direction than pulling the bow (downstrokes).  That control comes at a price- stiffness, less wrist action.... and a different FEEL which is actually the most important thing.  When I want an Old Time sound... I more SLING the bow.  If I was something more Irishy (not that I'm an authority, but I try to phrase like a flute would), I control the bow's movement much more.... it's actually more tiring!  I'm using different muscles in my arm.

You have to do what you have to do to get the sound of the genre you want to play.  Yeah... with some genres you might fight gravity and the difference between pushing and pulling, but many Old Time old timers used those things to get their sound.  If you want to sound like a specific fiddler, it really helps to use the specific techniques they used- including downbowing, patterns, etc, if that's what they used.   Or not, if they didn't!

It IS possible to make one technique sound like another one through sheer bow control.

When I heard Kenny Baker with Monroe and his Bluegrass Boys in about 1975 in L.A. he could make sawstroke sound like longbowing, his direction changes were so smooth.  BUT, when I see videos of him in videos done later, while his bowing is still very good, it doesn't have that amazing liquid quality it had when I heard him.

I'm guessing he was just playing fiddle a whole lot more in the 70's!

Most Old Time players are not into putting THAT much time into it.... the amount of time needed for umm...

your COMPLETE BOWING MASTERY.   For most, it's a pastime, a hobby.... most don't try and earn a living or even part of a living from it.... a more limited subset of techniques is a reasonable target.

2 or 3 well practiced patterns can allow you to play a lot of music in your spare time.  Which is what the oldtimers mostly did, who were mostly farmers.

Okay... coffee has taken effect... I think I'll go PLAY FIDDLE instead of writing about it.

GeeDubya - Posted - 01/25/2013:  12:33:09

Guys .......................... deja vu all over again.

dsreiner - Posted - 01/25/2013:  12:51:31

Hello fiddling friends-

I thought I'd make (again) the quick point that bowing "patterns" are about much more than bow direction.



As part of the description of a bowing workshop, I once wrote: "The rhythmic drive, flow of notes, and liveliness of a fiddle tune owe much to the often intricate patterns woven by the fiddler's bow. Bowing patterns include not just sequences of downbows and upbows, but also rhythmic groupings and slurs, accents and pulses, chops and anticipations, bow rocking and string crossings, crunches and ghost notes, and variations (intended or not) from one time to the next through a phrase or tune."



Many fiddlers want to achieve a certain sound or style on the fiddle - perhaps the traditional style of a region, or an ethnic group, or a particular fiddler they like. Some fiddlers approach this process by focusing directly on rhythm and sound quality; others think in terms of patterns that lead to these same goals. Some do both.



And all are interested in playing better and more effortlessly - "in the moment."

Dave

P.S. We've had some long threads on bowing on the Hangout (like this original one).  Just remember that describing bowing is not the same as divining intentions of the fiddler, nor should describing be equated with prescribing.

P.P.S. This was originally posted in this thread .

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/25/2013:  13:49:52

(Ah... that was fun... it really IS more satisfying to PLAY music that to talk about it... but I need a break now!)

Could it perhaps be said that bowing patterns (if you think of them consciously) aren't an end in themselves?

Rather, they are a MEANS to an end-

phrasing  and groove.

BUT... you can't really get past the means to an end if you haven't MASTERED the means.

Once learned and practiced to the point of fluidity and instinctive use, a particular bowing pattern becomes transparent... I'm no longer thinking about it- I'm thinking about the music, and the pattern is used (or NOT used) so as to serve the melody and the music.

Not too long ago, they put in a lovely new traffic circle on the other side of town.  Problem is, one of the turns off of it ends in a dead end after a few hundred feet.  A shuffle just learned is kind of like that... it doesn't lead to any musical destinations... yet.

Practicing the shuffle till mastery of it completes the road to the musical destinations beyond.

But during the process of gaining mastery, the shuffle does become an end- a temporary, short term GOAL- a "rest stop" on the way to the real destination.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/25/2013 13:53:24

tonyelder - Posted - 01/25/2013:  14:39:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Could it perhaps be said that bowing patterns (if you think of them consciously) aren't an end in themselves?

Rather, they are a MEANS to an end-

phrasing  and groove.

BUT... you can't really get past the means to an end if you haven't MASTERED the means.

---

imo - Dave hit the nail on the head perfectly:

Many fiddlers want to achieve a certain sound or style on the fiddle - perhaps the traditional style of a region, or an ethnic group, or a particular fiddler they like. Some fiddlers approach this process by focusing directly on rhythm and sound quality; others think in terms of patterns that lead to these same goals. Some do both.



And all are interested in playing better and more effortlessly - "in the moment."  

Well said Dave.

Edited by - tonyelder on 01/25/2013 14:47:49

IdleHands - Posted - 01/26/2013:  17:52:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

You twist my words.

Accenting upbows isn't impossible, just more difficult.  Requires more practice.

In fact, some patterns DO require accents in both directions, and they are a good way to practice accenting in both directions (Nashville, Offset Nashville, Jingle Bells Shuffle).  But to make them sound even, you have to do what you have to do, and that may mean softening your downstroke accents as well as strengthening your upstroke accents.

Some patterns (Georgia Shuffle, Smoothshuffle, Sawshuffle) have all the accents in one direction- DOWN, since I'm a downbower.  And the effect is different... more extreme.

When I play "anywhichway" without reference to patterns,  I do accent whatever I have to accent.  But the result is gentler accents, and a more gentle style of playing.... more like using the bow to create a second singing voice.  Great for waltzes, airs, and fills when playing with a singer.

When I want to use my bow as a percussion instrument, THEN pattern downbowing ROCKS!!!

It has a more aggressive quality... more "yang" if I wanted to use eastern terminology.

Fiddle tune melody + drones + downbow shuffles = one man band = no accompaniment needed!!!

 

It's not just gravity... it's the difference between pushing an object and pulling an object.

WHY have 2WD cars gone to mostly front wheel drive?  Pulling an object makes it track better.

I have these carts I use to take gear to gigs. If I want to travel quickly, they behave better if I pull them.  If I push them, they tend to wander... I have to exert more force to control their direction.

On the rare occasion I have a heavy shopping cart when shopping, sometimes it's easier to get ahead of the cart and pull it through than to try and steer it through a small opening from behind.

The same principle operates with bowing.  Pushing from behind the bow (upstrokes) requires more control exerted as far as the bows direction than pulling the bow (downstrokes).  That control comes at a price- stiffness, less wrist action.... and a different FEEL which is actually the most important thing.  When I want an Old Time sound... I more SLING the bow.  If I was something more Irishy (not that I'm an authority, but I try to phrase like a flute would), I control the bow's movement much more.... it's actually more tiring!  I'm using different muscles in my arm.

You have to do what you have to do to get the sound of the genre you want to play.  Yeah... with some genres you might fight gravity and the difference between pushing and pulling, but many Old Time old timers used those things to get their sound.  If you want to sound like a specific fiddler, it really helps to use the specific techniques they used- including downbowing, patterns, etc, if that's what they used.   Or not, if they didn't!

It IS possible to make one technique sound like another one through sheer bow control.

When I heard Kenny Baker with Monroe and his Bluegrass Boys in about 1975 in L.A. he could make sawstroke sound like longbowing, his direction changes were so smooth.  BUT, when I see videos of him in videos done later, while his bowing is still very good, it doesn't have that amazing liquid quality it had when I heard him.

I'm guessing he was just playing fiddle a whole lot more in the 70's!

Most Old Time players are not into putting THAT much time into it.... the amount of time needed for umm...

your COMPLETE BOWING MASTERY.   For most, it's a pastime, a hobby.... most don't try and earn a living or even part of a living from it.... a more limited subset of techniques is a reasonable target.

2 or 3 well practiced patterns can allow you to play a lot of music in your spare time.  Which is what the oldtimers mostly did, who were mostly farmers.

Okay... coffee has taken effect... I think I'll go PLAY FIDDLE instead of writing about it.

---

 It wasnt a twist.  Perhaps an overstatement.    In my experience its not even harder to accent an upbow.    what it is is the sometimes occurring muscle confusion of bowing the same phrase 'backwards' or 'turned around', but with practice and through focussing on the notes and NOT the bowing, 'turned around' doesnt feel 'turned around'.  The assertion that downbowing is more accentable is really a red herring to distract from the real fear, getting turned around.  

And as far as mastery goes,  even hobbyists can shoot for the stars. 

Mastery is within everyone's reach.  Any other concept is negative thinking.

IdleHands - Posted - 01/26/2013:  18:02:58

And dave is right. It's not about direction, but for many it is because they fear getting turned around. Thats how simple this all is.

IdleHands - Posted - 01/26/2013:  18:39:02

Should players be encouraged to practice bowing measures "forward" and "backward" or should one direction be avoided all together by some preplanned system which purposefully avoids one direction? Any and all answers I welcome.

Of couse I believe one should practice "forward" and "backward", then the terms lose all meaning, and one is truly free, and on the path to Complete Bowing Mastery. Its really not that hard. All you have to fear is fear itself, and bad advice.

IdleHands - Posted - 01/26/2013:  18:52:05

wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_the_mon...ake_place

The Monkey Banana and Water Spray Experiment
The experiment is real (scientific study cited below). This experiment involved 5 monkeys (10 altogether, including replacements), a cage, a banana, a ladder and, an ice cold water hose.

The Experiment- Part 1
5 monkeys are locked in a cage, a banana was hung from the ceiling and a ladder was placed right underneath it.
As predicted, immediately, one of the monkeys would race towards the ladder, to grab the banana. However, as soon as he would start to climb, the researcher would spray the monkey with ice-cold water.
but here's the kicker- In addition, he would also spray the other four monkeys…

When a second monkey tried to climb the ladder, the researcher would, again, spray the monkey with ice-cold water, As well as the other four watching monkeys;
This was repeated again and again until they learned their lesson
Climbing equals scary cold water for EVERYONE so No One Climbs the ladder.

The Experiment- Part 2
Once the 5 monkeys knew the drill, the researcher replaced one of the monkeys with a new inexperienced one. As predicted, the new monkey spots the banana, and goes for the ladder. BUT, the other four monkeys, knowing the drill, jumped on the new monkey and beat him up. The beat up new guy thus Learns- NO going for the ladder and No Banana Period- without even knowing why! and also without ever being sprayed with water!

These actions get repeated with 3 more times, with a new monkey each time and ASTONISHINGLY each new monkey- who had never received the cold-water Spray himself (and didn't even know anything about it), would Join the beating up of the New guy.

This is a classic example of Mob Mentality- bystanders and outsiders uninvolved with the fight- join in 'just because'.

amwildman - Posted - 01/26/2013:  19:33:55

Really?  Monkey intelligence experiments given as an illustration of human behavior? I could totally see 5 people who analyze bowing patterns sitting in that same room and having the same result.  Makes perfect sense to me.  Can you cross-reference the Olds and Milner Reward Center experiments for us and show us how that applies to pattern bowers please?  Thanks

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/27/2013:  06:38:07

I think bowing "backwards," however you think f it, and most people probably think of up bowing as backwards...even if you get good at t, sounds different that tugging/ pulling/ down bowing... So, to my ears, you can get good at going either direction, but they will have distinctively different sounds...now this skill might pull you outta of potential bwing trip- ups or disasters, but it will sound like crazy quilt patchwork...to me. People who know ( whether subconsciously or can parse it out by their ups and downs methodically) how to bow without getting tripped up and needing to jump in backwards to save the tune just sound more together, consistent, to me. It seems most bowers do naturally tend to be down bowers, but the only place I've personally seen them be regular up bowers is Lewis Co., KY...but I think anyone growing up with that stays as true to the upbw as people down bowing would to the dwn bow. Since one side f my family came out f Lewis Co., I started ( without really knowing exactly what I was doing) trying to base my bowing on the upbow, just because I figured since I had retry string roots there I oughta do that...nope, nope...it felt bad to me, maybe because most of my young to midde adult years were sent in Whitey Co., where the rhythms of any music, guitar, banjo, fiddle or anything, were hammered a little harder and not so scrapy...up bowing sounds scrapy, even if you're good at it...maybe it's the gravity battle as Pogo says. I could see where people might like that up bowing, rough and scrapy, but I don't personally like the sound of randomly jumping back and forth for the sake of saving a tune from sloppy bowing...just my opinion.

tonyelder - Posted - 01/27/2013:  11:05:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



I think bowing "backwards," however you think f it, and most people probably think of up bowing as backwards...even if you get good at t, sounds different that tugging/ pulling/ down bowing... So, to my ears, you can get good at going either direction, but they will have distinctively different sounds...now this skill might pull you outta of potential bwing trip- ups or disasters, but it will sound like crazy quilt patchwork...to me. People who know ( whether subconsciously or can parse it out by their ups and downs methodically) how to bow without getting tripped up and needing to jump in backwards to save the tune just sound more together, consistent, to me. It seems most bowers do naturally tend to be down bowers, but the only place I've personally seen them be regular up bowers is Lewis Co., KY...but I think anyone growing up with that stays as true to the upbw as people down bowing would to the dwn bow. Since one side f my family came out f Lewis Co., I started ( without really knowing exactly what I was doing) trying to base my bowing on the upbow, just because I figured since I had retry string roots there I oughta do that...nope, nope...it felt bad to me, maybe because most of my young to midde adult years were sent in Whitey Co., where the rhythms of any music, guitar, banjo, fiddle or anything, were hammered a little harder and not so scrapy...up bowing sounds scrapy, even if you're good at it...maybe it's the gravity battle as Pogo says. I could see where people might like that up bowing, rough and scrapy, but I don't personally like the sound of randomly jumping back and forth for the sake of saving a tune from sloppy bowing...just my opinion.

---

I understand the principle behind your comments (opinion), but I not sure I believe it gets worked out that way in real life.

I know for me, playing OT fiddle tunes is not so much about any insistence that every round of phrases has to be repeated (bowed) exactly the same as before. Most OT fiddlers are playing variations for each round (subtle or radical) - most of those variations would probably be intentional while some might be just what happens.

I wouldn't characterize that as sloppy or scrapy. I'm not calling you a liar, but I seriously doubt anyone could pick out an up bow verses a down bow on most tunes played by a good old time fiddler. I mean - even pogo says he can't figure out what some folks are doing. So.......

Yes, I certainly do believe there is a tonal difference between an up and down bow. But to be honest about the whole thing - I believe there will always be a tonal difference between every stroke you make with the bow - every up stroke you make as well as every down stroke. They will never be the same when playing a tune, and the less "pro" you are, the more pronounced that difference will probably be. I would say that our goal should be to KNOW what will be the expected tonal quality of any stroke we use so that each one that we use is intentional and expresses exactly what you wanted to hear when it gets executed. The problem with the unskilled player is - he doesn't have that kind of knowledge or control yet. That's not lacking bowing pattern skills, that's lacking bow control.

Good playing sounds good, and that's how you can tell. All the rest of this stuff doesn't amount to a hill of beans - imo. It's not good because you hold your bow this way or that, or know and use a certain bowing pattern, or hold your instrument this way or that. It's good because you have learned how to express a musical idea with your instrument in a way that is pleasing and exciting.

All this other stuff - to me - is only idea tools, or starting points for folks who are looking for a teacher to tell them what to do or how to do it. But make no mistake - just because you learn patterns and stuff, doesn't mean your playing will not be sloppy or scrapy. It's only a method for learning.

Yes the method can and does work for many. But it is not the only method that works.

 A very wise man has said:

Many fiddlers want to achieve a certain sound or style on the fiddle - perhaps the traditional style of a region, or an ethnic group, or a particular fiddler they like. Some fiddlers approach this process by focusing directly on rhythm and sound quality; others think in terms of patterns that lead to these same goals. Some do both.



And all are interested in playing better and more effortlessly - "in the moment."  

Edited by - tonyelder on 01/27/2013 11:13:46

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 01/27/2013:  11:38:58

 playing better and more effortlessly - "in the moment." 

I am playing better, effortlessly, here and now oooooooooohhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm ooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhmmmmmmmmm,

I am playing better, effortlessly, here and now oooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, oooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmm.

OTJunky - Posted - 01/27/2013:  12:40:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument

 playing better and more effortlessly - "in the moment." 

I am playing better, effortlessly, here and now oooooooooohhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm ooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhmmmmmmmmm,

I am playing better, effortlessly, here and now oooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, oooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmm.

---

Sheesh.  Where did I put that cold water sprayer I was using on the monkeys.

--OTJ

Edited by - OTJunky on 01/27/2013 12:42:11

amwildman - Posted - 01/27/2013:  12:50:30

I'll bet my house that Humbled would not respond to cold water treatment.  Any takers?

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/27/2013:  14:13:55

Tony, I'm not saying people should not vary their bwing, I'm just saying if you switch from dwn bowing to up bwing to avoid getting tripped up, even though I will say that in itself takes some real skill, the sound is crazy-quilt...sloppy, to me, in my opinion...yes, my opinion only...nothing of any real significance, lol.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 01/27/2013 14:14:19

tonyelder - Posted - 01/27/2013:  17:12:42

I think the only thing that causes a person to get "tripped up" is when they find themselves bowing in a direction that is unfamiliar to them - because that means they have to determine (in the moment) what they need to do in order to get back where their bowing is familiar, or risk a "train-wreck" by continuing to play it "backwards".  That has more to do with how familiar you are with the way you play that tune, not so much whether you are a down bower or an up bower - or a pattern bower. And - in this regard - I agree with Idle Hands. The more familiar you are with how to control your bowing, the less likely you are to have a train wreck or sound crazy quilt.

Put it this way - you run the same risk if you are a pattern bower, an up bower, a down bower, or whatever kind of bower (doesn't matter). When you find yourself in unfamiliar territory - you've got a problem to solve - in that moment. imo - that is when your playing sounds like  "crazy-quilt" . It comes from a lack of confidence and usually includes a bit of "sloppy" trying to get back on track. But that really doesn't have anything to do with being a down bower or up bower, or pattern bower - or anywhichwayer. 

...my understanding.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/27/2013:  22:19:49

quote:

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Originally posted by amwildman

I'll bet my house that Humbled would not respond to cold water treatment.  Any takers?

---

Not me- I'm with you on this- Humbled was raised in Canada... cold water will only invigorate him.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/27/2013:  23:27:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Tony, I'm not saying people should not vary their bwing, I'm just saying if you switch from dwn bowing to up bwing to avoid getting tripped up, even though I will say that in itself takes some real skill, the sound is crazy-quilt...sloppy, to me, in my opinion...yes, my opinion only...nothing of any real significance, lol.

---

I hear this too.

I'm a clawhammer banjo player.

Clawhammer banjo tends to have a strong-weak strong-weak accent pattern, since the fingernail notes are getting hit with something hard, and the thumb notes are getting hit with something soft.

To me, down-up down-up sawstroke replicates this sound best.  Perhaps one of the reasons why downbowers and down-up sawstroke predominate in American Old Time is this clawhammer banjo influence.

And it's a sound I really like... it's bouncy.  I LIKE bouncy.

I got to jam with a pretty good clawhammer player from the Bay Area a couple of years ago- she had been taking classes, and from the sound, the teacher must have been Round Peak influenced... and we locked onto a groove immediately, no problem- I wish it was ALWAYS that easy!  My downbow accents fit perfectly with the POCK-a POCK-a sound of her playing.

When I hear upbowers, when they do a sawstroked passage, I can hear it and even see it right away-  it's not strong-weak, it's even-even even-even.  It's a different groove.

And when I hear Ashley MacIsaac, whom Idle presented as a good example of anywhichway sawstroking, his sawstroke comes out even-even even-even- whether the passage is down-up or up-down sawstroke.

When I play Irish, I'm aiming for a much more even feel, even when I use single strokes, which I probably shouldn't even do as much as I do.  And with the even feel, bowing a passage backwards isn't a problem.

Anyway, groundhogpeggy is a Kentuckian. She grew up with oldtimer fiddlers around her. She knows what shes talking about in terms of HOW the people in two different regions of  Kentucky played.  And she whatever instrument she plays, she plays with a good rhythmic feel.  I think she gets that good feel, because she can HEAR sloppy stuff that doesn't groove, and cuts it out of her own playing first chance she gets.  If she says they're different.... they're different.

Oh yeah.  One of the reasons I'm a downbower is because that's what I saw key oldtimers like Earl Collins, Mel Durham, and Tommy Jarrell doing.  And two of the younger fiddlers that got the best groove going without resorting to Nashville were Hubbard and Molk, and their bowing seemed more like the oldtimers I saw/heard in the '70s than the bowing of most of my fellow urban fiddlers.  Groundhogpeggy seems to hear in my bowing and my patterns something akin to the downbowing she heard in the downbowing county... or she wouldn't have "cottoned" to my bowing at all...WHY should she listen to this geeky city-slicker talking about bowing, unless she's hearing and recognizing something familiar in the sound of the bowing?

And while I can't read everybody's bowing, if they are a downbower like me, and use some sawstroke, I can read them pretty well- it's a lot like solving a crossword puzzle. 

You pick off the easy ones first, and then the direction of the easy ones helps you with the harder one.

Okay... those measures are sawstroked down up.... okay, there's a pair of Nashvilles, starting on a downstroke... whoops.... there it's Georgia Shuffles with the accent on the downbow.... there it's two note slurs starting on a downbow.

That's very close to what I see in Chirp's Smith's bowing- also Doug D's one tune I saw on video. They're both downbowers (although apparently unconsciously so)... so their bowing is easy to read.

And just like figuring out a crossword puzzle depends on you actually knowing the vocabulary words, figuring out bowing depends on having the patterns you're seeing/hearing in YOUR vocabulary... otherwise you're just making wild guesses, and those are usually wrong.

With an upbower, their bowstrokes get tighter and shorter, the accents aren't as pronounced, and any patterns are backwards, so they LOOK different from how I do them... I usually can tell they are an upbower, but I can't usually read their patterns beyond maybe Nashville and sawstroke.

Then if someone is anywhichway, they tend to do the shorter stroke thing, plus the same rhythm gets bowed in two direction, so they look very different from each other... that would only make it even harder to read.

BTW... when a downbower uses short tight strokes, their bowing ALSO gets harder to read.  Tommy Jarrell used a lot of big sweeping strokes that made at least some of his bowings easier to read.  Brad Leftwich uses much tighter bow strokes, and I often can't tell just from watching exactly what he's doing... but then, he makes it easy and TELLS us- for a reasonable price!

Anyway.. downbowing is:

easy to "read", bouncy, and fits well with a clawhammer banjo... that may account for why it was so common.

Oh yeah.   My favorite bluegrass fiddlers are always the ones that have Old Time roots.  I have yet to see one that's not a downbower.   AND I have yet to see anyone do a Double Shuffle backwards.  Double Shuffle is all single strokes, and what makes it work is how the strokes are accented.  If you can accent just as well both directions, they WHY do they always do it with down up sawstroke???

AND I've talked to an Old Time fiddler who was an upbower.  I totally expected him to be "partisan" about upbowing... but he was apologetic, and he freely admitted with NO prompting from me that there are things downbowers could play that he couldn't play!  And this is someone who gets LOTS of practice at doing it backwards.

Oh yeah.... I played in a band with an upbower.  I don't think we were ever able to make our grooves fully mesh.

It AIN'T the same.

tonyelder - Posted - 01/28/2013:  01:07:03

...missed the point.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/28/2013:  04:19:14

Has anybody ever seen a banjo player claw upwards???? Just wondering...lol. I half wonder if upstroke fiddlers came from some community having a prominent fiddler who was left-handed but had to play in the ordinary right-handed manner, and what resulted was upsidedown from the usual bowing groove. Look at Elizabeth Cotton on the guitar...she turned the guitar around to play left-handed, but didn't have the guitar setup/ strung for left- handed playing, and her playing style was totally upsidedown...she was a great guitarist, but nobody can really do what she was doing. Possibly related, probably not, but I'm just wondering out loud about why the fiddlers who go upwards ever did... And I wish i'uz as smart as pogo thinks I am...lol.

IdleHands - Posted - 01/28/2013:  05:03:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Has anybody ever seen a banjo player claw upwards???? Just wondering...lol. I half wonder if upstroke fiddlers came from some community having a prominent fiddler who was left-handed but had to play in the ordinary right-handed manner, and what resulted was upsidedown from the usual bowing groove. Look at Elizabeth Cotton on the guitar...she turned the guitar around to play left-handed, but didn't have the guitar setup/ strung for left- handed playing, and her playing style was totally upsidedown...she was a great guitarist, but nobody can really do what she was doing. Possibly related, probably not, but I'm just wondering out loud about why the fiddlers who go upwards ever did... And I wish i'uz as smart as pogo thinks I am...lol.

---

Clawing upwards make no sense, the strings are always below the hand.  It's a metaphor stretched to the breaking point.  But thanks for playing.  

IdleHands - Posted - 01/28/2013:  05:07:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Tony, I'm not saying people should not vary their bwing, I'm just saying if you switch from dwn bowing to up bwing to avoid getting tripped up, even though I will say that in itself takes some real skill, the sound is crazy-quilt...sloppy, to me, in my opinion...yes, my opinion only...nothing of any real significance, lol.

---

I hear this too.

I'm a clawhammer banjo player.

Clawhammer banjo tends to have a strong-weak strong-weak accent pattern, since the fingernail notes are getting hit with something hard, and the thumb notes are getting hit with something soft.

To me, down-up down-up sawstroke replicates this sound best.  Perhaps one of the reasons why downbowers and down-up sawstroke predominate in American Old Time is this clawhammer banjo influence.

And it's a sound I really like... it's bouncy.  I LIKE bouncy.

I got to jam with a pretty good clawhammer player from the Bay Area a couple of years ago- she had been taking classes, and from the sound, the teacher must have been Round Peak influenced... and we locked onto a groove immediately, no problem- I wish it was ALWAYS that easy!  My downbow accents fit perfectly with the POCK-a POCK-a sound of her playing.

When I hear upbowers, when they do a sawstroked passage, I can hear it and even see it right away-  it's not strong-weak, it's even-even even-even.  It's a different groove.

And when I hear Ashley MacIsaac, whom Idle presented as a good example of anywhichway sawstroking, his sawstroke comes out even-even even-even- whether the passage is down-up or up-down sawstroke.

When I play Irish, I'm aiming for a much more even feel, even when I use single strokes, which I probably shouldn't even do as much as I do.  And with the even feel, bowing a passage backwards isn't a problem.

Anyway, groundhogpeggy is a Kentuckian. She grew up with oldtimer fiddlers around her. She knows what shes talking about in terms of HOW the people in two different regions of  Kentucky played.  And she whatever instrument she plays, she plays with a good rhythmic feel.  I think she gets that good feel, because she can HEAR sloppy stuff that doesn't groove, and cuts it out of her own playing first chance she gets.  If she says they're different.... they're different.

Oh yeah.  One of the reasons I'm a downbower is because that's what I saw key oldtimers like Earl Collins, Mel Durham, and Tommy Jarrell doing.  And two of the younger fiddlers that got the best groove going without resorting to Nashville were Hubbard and Molk, and their bowing seemed more like the oldtimers I saw/heard in the '70s than the bowing of most of my fellow urban fiddlers.  Groundhogpeggy seems to hear in my bowing and my patterns something akin to the downbowing she heard in the downbowing county... or she wouldn't have "cottoned" to my bowing at all...WHY should she listen to this geeky city-slicker talking about bowing, unless she's hearing and recognizing something familiar in the sound of the bowing?

And while I can't read everybody's bowing, if they are a downbower like me, and use some sawstroke, I can read them pretty well- it's a lot like solving a crossword puzzle. 

You pick off the easy ones first, and then the direction of the easy ones helps you with the harder one.

Okay... those measures are sawstroked down up.... okay, there's a pair of Nashvilles, starting on a downstroke... whoops.... there it's Georgia Shuffles with the accent on the downbow.... there it's two note slurs starting on a downbow.

That's very close to what I see in Chirp's Smith's bowing- also Doug D's one tune I saw on video. They're both downbowers (although apparently unconsciously so)... so their bowing is easy to read.

And just like figuring out a crossword puzzle depends on you actually knowing the vocabulary words, figuring out bowing depends on having the patterns you're seeing/hearing in YOUR vocabulary... otherwise you're just making wild guesses, and those are usually wrong.

With an upbower, their bowstrokes get tighter and shorter, the accents aren't as pronounced, and any patterns are backwards, so they LOOK different from how I do them... I usually can tell they are an upbower, but I can't usually read their patterns beyond maybe Nashville and sawstroke.

Then if someone is anywhichway, they tend to do the shorter stroke thing, plus the same rhythm gets bowed in two direction, so they look very different from each other... that would only make it even harder to read.

BTW... when a downbower uses short tight strokes, their bowing ALSO gets harder to read.  Tommy Jarrell used a lot of big sweeping strokes that made at least some of his bowings easier to read.  Brad Leftwich uses much tighter bow strokes, and I often can't tell just from watching exactly what he's doing... but then, he makes it easy and TELLS us- for a reasonable price!

Anyway.. downbowing is:

easy to "read", bouncy, and fits well with a clawhammer banjo... that may account for why it was so common.

Oh yeah.   My favorite bluegrass fiddlers are always the ones that have Old Time roots.  I have yet to see one that's not a downbower.   AND I have yet to see anyone do a Double Shuffle backwards.  Double Shuffle is all single strokes, and what makes it work is how the strokes are accented.  If you can accent just as well both directions, they WHY do they always do it with down up sawstroke???

AND I've talked to an Old Time fiddler who was an upbower.  I totally expected him to be "partisan" about upbowing... but he was apologetic, and he freely admitted with NO prompting from me that there are things downbowers could play that he couldn't play!  And this is someone who gets LOTS of practice at doing it backwards.

Oh yeah.... I played in a band with an upbower.  I don't think we were ever able to make our grooves fully mesh.

It AIN'T the same.

---

WHo's they?  

Your one anecdotal self hating upbower is not a compelling argument.

You're verging on the logical fallacy of argument ad popularum.  Whole societies have gone mad, it doesnt make madness sane.

Upbows are not harder to accent in my experience.  Whatever meager gravity difference there is so meager as to be negligible.  

I believe you will cling to this phantom fact forever.

Edited by - IdleHands on 01/28/2013 05:09:01

IdleHands - Posted - 01/28/2013:  05:14:38

Being able to play with an even tone doesn't mean one cant get the caricature sound of heavily accented grooves, it just means you have more choices, and can play syncopated grooves yet undreamt of, spontaneously, without preplanning handwringing and neuroses re: getting "turned around".

Edited by - IdleHands on 01/28/2013 05:15:57

IdleHands - Posted - 01/28/2013:  05:21:02

I still dont think you're answered this question pogo.

Is "playing backwards" something that should be practiced or something that should be avoided through limiting oneself to directionally biased patterns? In your opinion?

IdleHands - Posted - 01/28/2013:  05:27:38

Another phrase I really want to use is " the soft bigotry of low expectations". Ill work it in soon i hope.

IdleHands - Posted - 01/28/2013:  05:28:49

With pogo as the apparent ideological frontman on the pattern downbowing debate, we will have them on the run for the forseeable future.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/28/2013:  06:01:39

I respect upbowers...like I said before, I respect anybody from Lewis Co. But I tried playing the way they play for the sake f ancestry, lol, and it feels funny to me...I personally can't get into it, but I respect anybody who plays any instrument...I think playing music at home any way you choose is much preferable to listening to commercial music and I believe it makes people happier, more stable, more secure, friendlier, probably even healthier to actually PLAY music in whatever way they want to. For me personally, down bwing works ( although I ave to say I didn't know that's what I was doing until pogo pointed it out from my scratchy, terrible fiddling YouTubes) for me, and it seems to be the basis for many self taught fiddlers...seems to be the natural feel for so many...like cawhammering, as I said ... Downward just seems to be the way people tend to play the banjo, guitar, dulcimer...even on something like a cello that's held sideway...a downbw is considered tugging, upbow pushing (- although I've heard some people say "push" when to me it looks like they are pulling...so...confusing terminology)... The tugged downbw considered the strong beat and composers mark the down bows for stuff like cellos. Pogo's gravity point is beginning to make more and mre sense to me...I was painting a few days ago, and noticed neat painting is based on the downstrokes...not the upstrokes...they just connect the downstrokes. Gravity r not...it just seems to work in many situations...there just seem to be two distinct directions, one stronger than the other.

IdleHands - Posted - 01/28/2013:  06:46:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

...there just seem to be two distinct directions, one stronger than the other.

---

There are definitely two directions on that we agree, but one is not necessarily stronger than the other.  Of course if one only practices accenting one of them, in a mistaken belief that accenting the other is an overly ambitious dream, then that disparity will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

DougD - Posted - 01/28/2013:  06:48:52

Peggy, are you sure your recollections of Lewis County are accurate? I know or have known a few fiddlers from there, and they didn't strike me as playing too differently from players from other areas. One of the best is Roger Cooper, who learned from many of the older generation of players. Here's a video of him:  historyburgoo.com/historyburgo...dler.html  He has a very fluid way with the bow, but most of the main accents are on a downbow.

One of the main influences on Roger was the great Buddy Thomas, who was also from Lewis County. I got to see him play a bit before his untimely death, and I don't remember anything strange about his bowing either. I don't find any video online of Buddy though.

The tunes are different, and played differently in that part of the state, though, which dictates a different bowing, but I don't think its radically "backwards" from the rest of the world. Michael Garvin would be able to comment further if he sees this thread.

Here's a lot of music from Lewis County:   cdm15131.contentdm.oclc.org/cd...uppress/0   I'm not good at determining bowing by listening to recordings, but perhaps someone who is would like to take a listen.

Edited by - DougD on 01/28/2013 06:50:14

tonyelder - Posted - 01/28/2013:  07:25:35

Yes, I have seen clawhammer players play "backwards" - if that's what you want to call it. There are plenty of examples of old time banjo players using 2 and 3 finger style of picking (up picking). And they sound great to my ears. On some tunes I would say it might even sound better. Or maybe it just has to do with how well the banjo player is able to play that makes the difference.



The difference here is that some of us are advocating that there is only one "right" way to do things. Any other way is, well................



But I concede the point, you don't call 2 finger style picking, clawhammer - any more than you would call an up bowing - down bowing.



Personal preferences are personal preferences - everyone usually has a favorite way of doing things and usually that "way" sounds better to them. The world is not the same for everyone.



I think I tend to favor downbowing when I play. But I can't / won't say I don't like any up bowing, any more than I would say I don't like to hear 2 or 3 finger style banjo picking.



Again, good music sounds good.

Edited by - tonyelder on 01/28/2013 07:30:58

GeeDubya - Posted - 01/28/2013:  07:58:42

Roger's stuff looks awfully good to me Doug.  Thx for the share.  Nice blend of smooth bowing.  Most phrasing begins on down bows, but there's plenty of lift and mix throughout.  Many three-up-one-down licks in appropriate spots, giving good off-beats on the down strokes in those parts.  I hear a bit of Buddy Thomas there too.  Have to hunt for Rounder #533 & hear more.

DougD - Posted - 01/28/2013:  08:18:24

Roger Cooper is a great fiddler, and his first CD "Going Back to Old Kentucky" is a treasure trove of tunes learned personally from older fiddlers, plus the notes have some great stories:  amazon.com/Going-Back-Kentucky...er+Cooper  I'm sure his others are fine too - that's the only one we have. Roger is a pretty modest guy, and he hasn't gotten out as much as some other fiddlers from the area, but I think that's changing.

The Buddy Thomas CD "Kitty Puss" is just one of the greatest fiddle CDs ever:  amazon.com/Kitty-Puss-Old-Time...dy+Thomas

The tunes and style are a little different in that part of the state. I don't think there's much shuffling in the bowing - its quite intricate.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/28/2013:  08:32:28

Around the Kinnikinick area I've seen backwards bowing...that's all I knw about Lewis Co...I haven't spent time there, just earlier family came from there.

GeeDubya - Posted - 01/28/2013:  10:59:57

Well I just popped $9.99 for download of Cooper's  Essence of Old Kentucky at Amazon. 34 tunes for less than $0.30/tune is a bargain by any standard.  Sadly it doesn't include the liner note pdf, but that is available on the Internet: mtrecords.co.uk/pdf/510_notes.pdf     .    

I'm listening right now. Good stuff fer sure.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/28/2013:  11:30:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by IdleHands

I still dont think you're answered this question pogo.



Is "playing backwards" something that should be practiced or something that should be avoided through limiting oneself to directionally biased patterns? In your opinion?

---

It depends on the style and what you want to play.  Not all styles have the same groove, nyah, lilt, lift,  bounce, swing, whatever.

If you like Scottish, Irish, stuff like that... bow backwards... works great.  Doesn't fight the rhythmic thing you find in Irish trad or Scottish Trad.  Wind instruments don't HAVE bows, and so they don't get these little phrasing quirks that you can get with a bow.  So the fiddles in Irish Trad tend to need to repress that kind of phrasing to fit in with the wind instruments.  With Scottish fiddle, they don't play WITH the bagpipe, but the phrasing is very influence by it anyway.

But what is good for Irish Trad isn't good for Old Time.  One time, someone from the U.K. asked me of my opinion on the progress they were making on Old Time tunes, and I had to say that while it was technically very competent, it was too even, didn't have enough bounce.

When I play Old Time fiddle, I just find it WAY easier to get that bounce with downbow accent downbowing- down-up-down-up sawstroke, and patterns that fit nicely into that kind of sawstroke.

And I think if someone wants to focus exclusively on Old Time, they should use the approach used by the fiddlers they want to sound like. If they're an  upbower, go upbowing. If they're a pattern downbower (like Melvin Wine or Tommy Jarrell) do that. If they actually are anywhichway, with no directional bias... go for it.

But in actual fact, among the Old Timers, upbowing and anywhichway was atypical.  So if you want the TYPICAL Old Time sound, I'd say down-up sawstroking and/or downbow patterns are the way(s) to go.  But if you really have to buck the trend, or have a particular upbower whose fiddling who think is the cat's pajamas, well, DO THAT if you want to emulate that sound.

Interesting about groundhogpeggy growing up in a county and family that was dominated by upbowers, and she bucks the trend and goes for downbowing!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/28/2013:  11:32:47

Most of the fidders I ever heard were not professional or famous, just old back porch types.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/28/2013:  11:42:37

Well I didn't grow up in Lewis Co., but my grandpa was from there and there are a huge number f my relatives there now. I know something about te Vanceburg outlying area...but I never lived there. My grandpa was definitely one f the Lewis Co, whistlers...but I just relate to music that my ther side came from, around se ky counties...I lived in Whitely the longest and I think people there, the old role, very old when I was younger...they hammered out stuff pretty hard...with or without instruments. Dwight Diller told me the Hammons family he learned from came from Whitley Co, ky, way over to Pocohontos Co WV where he is, during the Civil War. Nt surprising to me, after hearing Dwight's recordings of himself with the Hammons about the same years as I was in Whitley Co. Although I didn't really appreciate the sound until I got older and the people and their music was gone.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/28/2013:  12:26:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

The difference here is that some of us are advocating that there is only one "right" way to do things. Any other way is, well................



But I concede the point, you don't call 2 finger style picking, clawhammer - any more than you would call an up bowing - down bowing.



Personal preferences are personal preferences - everyone usually has a favorite way of doing things and usually that "way" sounds better to them. The world is not the same for everyone.



I think I tend to favor downbowing when I play. But I can't / won't say I don't like any up bowing, any more than I would say I don't like to hear 2 or 3 finger style banjo picking.



Again, good music sounds good.

---

See my response to Idle Hands... HE wants me to come down on one side or the other.  And I basically say it depends on the style.  I use pattern downbowing for Old Time, anywhichway for a LOT of other things.

Old Time fingerpicking and up-picking certainly exists, but it's not the dominant style by any means.

If someone just says they want to play Old Time banjo, with no specification as to sounding like a particular player, I can think of two ways that would do them justice.

You could either give them the dominant style (clawhammer), assuming that that's what they'v most likely heard.

Or, you could give them a sampler of different styles, sort of like the Pete Seeger Book and the Art Rosenbaum book, and then let them pick the style they want to follow.

And it's the same with Old Time fiddle, yet different.  I can play anywhichway if I'm just focusing on a melody, but I can't do it when I'm trying to get a shuffley groove.  And I can't confine myself to upbowing.  With the banjo techniques, it's easier to keep them compartmentalized and to do both at least decently well.  But fiddle bowing is slipperier somehow, and fiddlers tend to favor one way or the other.

Anyway, a lot of our arguments start when a noob shows up asking questions.  I tend to like to sound a person out as to the direction they want to go in.  For instance, if they say they want to sound like Melvin Wine or Tommy Jarrell, well, my EYES tell me from the videos that Melvin Wine was a pattern downbower, and my EYES told me from watching him at Galax in person that Tommy Jarrell was a pattern downbower.  I CAN'T in good conscience tell them that anywhichway is the right way to go to cop the sound they want to get!!!! It would be like telling someone in Nashville to "Go west, young man!" when they were asking the directions to Washington, D.C.!  And there are teaching materials available from fiddlers who have spent considerable time with those fiddlers... so WHY reinvent the wheel?

If they've listened to a lot of Old Time, and don't have a specific preference, I would still advise them to go pattern downbowing IF THEIR BRAIN-WIRING can make sense of it- because I think they'll interface better with a greater variety of players.

If they are in love with the style of a specific fiddler who is an upbower, well, in that case, I would be very remiss if I told them to use downbowing.   But it still might be a good idea to warn them that this isn't a widespread style... and then try to direct them to someone who could help them- because I sure couldn't!!!

Oh yeah... then you have people that want to fiddle, but haven't decided on Old Time or Bluegrass yet!

Well, I've seen LOTS of Old Time fiddlers AND lots of Bluegrass fiddlers that are pattern downbowers, so pattern downbowing allows them to learn techniques that will help them with either style while they decide about long term goals.

And I really don't think upbowing is going to help them with Double Shuffle!  And Dave Reiner does both Bluegrass and Old Time, and he's a pattern downbower.

Also, my language background makes me think a certain way.  In learning a language I either want to learn from a native, or from someone who has spent so much time with natives that they sound like one.

With a traditional fiddle style like Old Time, that translates to:

Either spend a lot of time with oldtimers in the tradition, or spend time with people who HAVE spent a lot of time with them.  In Los Angeles in the 1970's, Tom Sauber was the guy who was spending quality time with old timers, helping them record and learning from them.  And Tom was a big help to me as well- invited me to go hear them, and showed me a pattern that I now call "Syncoshuffle" (he didn't call it anything).  And he definitely taught it to me with a downbowing orientation.  Since Tom Sauber was so helpful to me in L.A., I have to point out people nationally who have done the equivalent- Alan Jabbour, Brad Leftwich, Bruce Molsky, Bruce Green and Erynn Marshall... people who had the patience, humility and respect to spend quality time with the oldtimers and learn what they were ACTUALLY DOING with the bow before they passed on.  I'm not sure if they've spent lots of time with oldtimers, but Dave Bragger and Dave Reiner are also people I would recommend as being sources of bowing knowledge.  I get the idea Dan Gellert knows quite a bit too, but I haven't heard how he learned it.

Now SOME people may object to me viewing these people as (gasp) AUTHORITIES on Old Time bowing... but they are.

It's not that hard to learn Old Time melodies, and it's not that much harder to learn how to do drones and unisons.

After that, most of what constitutes the distinctiveness and intricacy of Old Time fiddling is in the bowing.

People with anarchistic or do-it-yourself biases may object, but the bowing knowledge is there for those that want to avail themselves of it.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/28/2013:  14:10:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

Yes, I have seen clawhammer players play "backwards" - if that's what you want to call it. There are plenty of examples of old time banjo players using 2 and 3 finger style of picking (up picking). And they sound great to my ears. On some tunes I would say it might even sound better. Or maybe it just has to do with how well the banjo player is able to play that makes the difference.



The difference here is that some of us are advocating that there is only one "right" way to do things. Any other way is, well................



But I concede the point, you don't call 2 finger style picking, clawhammer - any more than you would call an up bowing - down bowing.



Personal preferences are personal preferences - everyone usually has a favorite way of doing things and usually that "way" sounds better to them. The world is not the same for everyone.



I think I tend to favor downbowing when I play. But I can't / won't say I don't like any up bowing, any more than I would say I don't like to hear 2 or 3 finger style banjo picking.



Again, good music sounds good.

---

Personal preferences.... what you're saying is, is that it's a matter of taste.

Yeah, that enters into it.  But when we are talking about Old Time, we are talking about a TRADITIONAL form of music, correct.   It's not just my personal preference... it's "What was the traditional preference?" or "How did the oldtimers do it?"

Upbowing exists... but I've never gotten the sense from what I've seen that it's anything but a minority practice.

And in the 70's when I was learning, it seemed to me from my admittedly limited point of view at the time that downbowing was way more common.  Now, having come back to fiddling in 2005, what I see on fiddling videos seems to confirm that.  And what I see of fiddlers who spent a lot of time collecting seems to confirm that.  They paid more attention to downbowers, because there were more downbowers to pay attention TO!

Some related things:

There are these associations called "Old Time Fiddler's Associations" across the country.  However, because they have been contest oriented, and many of the people who came loved Western Swing and/or Bluegrass, by now, the fiddling associated with those associations and those contests is "Old Time" in name only.

"Revival" Old Time came about to recapture that Old Time flavor and style that the Fiddler's Associations lost- but we COULD do the same thing in a different way- get so "whatever-turns-you-on" tolerant that we lose the Old Time flavor and style too.

Also, I knew an electric guitarist once.  To MY mind, he was a rock guitarist... but in his mind, he was a BLUES guitarist. At most I would have called him a "blues-rock" guitarist. Then I got into blues myself.  Some people think I sound bluesy... but some probably think I'm not bluesy enough. I prefer to call my electric guitar playing "blues-oriented".  How much can you dilute Blues till it's not Blues anymore?  How much can you dilute orange juice till it's not orange juice anymore?  How much can you dilute Old Time till it's not Old Time anymore.  I may be old fashioned, but I DO want these terms to MEAN something!

To ME the rhythmic use of the bow is THE thing that sets Old Time apart from other genres.  To say the bowing doesn't matter, and that we can pretty much ignore what the oldtimers actually did, to me pretty much guarantees that the dilution is going to proceed rather quickly, and rather completely, and when that happens, should really get another name entirely, just like when rhythm and blues got imitated, people realized that the imitation wasn't really rhythm and blues anymore, and called it rock and roll.

Carter - Posted - 01/28/2013:  16:45:35

This thread is a real bummer. The only thing I have to contribute is that it's kind of disappointing to see this concept of "limiting oneself" being cast in such a negative light. I believe it can be very helpful especially for keeping us mere mortals interested in the skill we're trying to acquire. The difficulty is pinpointing what you should be limiting yourself too.

Is anyone familiar with the 80/20 rule? It's pretty fascinating.

Here is the verbose wiki... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle, but it's most basic definition taken from this article... entrepreneurs-journey.com/397/...rinciple/ is as follows...

"By the numbers it means that 80 percent of your outcomes come from 20 percent of your inputs. As Pareto demonstrated with his research this "rule" holds true, in a very rough sense to an 80/20 ratio, however in many cases the ratio can be a lot higher - 99/1 may be closer to reality."

Now, I haven't done the statistical analysis, but at least in my case I can pretty reliably replicate (in a way that I'm happy with) the majority of what I like to listen to by doing a relatively small subset of things. In fact, 99/1 is probably a closer representation in the case of fiddling for me.

I'm currently doing my best to apply the principal to learning foreign languages and it's certainly working a lot better for me than Rosetta Stone, or any classes I ever had in high school or college (in other words, the standardized way of doing things).

In any case, the two sides of this argument aren't going to agree so I don't know why you all are still going at it. Here's a suggestion, next time you feel the need to add more noise to this thread (which you already know will do nothing to sway anyone's opinion) how about you pick up your instrument and run a tune or practice a scale or something. I guarantee you, you will get further down the road to pattern bowing stardom or Complete Bowing Mastery™(perhaps the most annoying phrase ever uttered on this forum by the way) or whatever you call what in reality is just "being happy with your playing." 

And if you're at work, and can't pick up the fiddle, here's an idea... keep working. I'm pretty sure they don't pay you to post on fiddle hangout.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/28/2013:  17:13:52

The bowing folders always catch on fire...lol! But I think there's a good reason...because, well I won't go into all that....again...lol!

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 01/28/2013:  18:04:03

How correct you are, Carter.  Can't you people just let this "Bowing Patterns for Your Enjoyment" alone for a while?  

But wait--afore everyone signs off--will someone explain to me, or daresay draw an equation/schematic for, the Asymmetrically Modified Metaphysical Nashville Sprinyet?  Methinks ol' T Jarrel used it in "How the Roses Bloom in Birmingham" a lot.  

amwildman - Posted - 01/28/2013:  18:19:36

quote:

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Originally posted by Carter

In any case, the two sides of this argument aren't going to agree so I don't know why you all are still going at it. Here's a suggestion, next time you feel the need to add more noise to this thread (which you already know will do nothing to sway anyone's opinion) how about you pick up your instrument and run a tune or practice a scale or something. I guarantee you, you will get further down the road to pattern bowing stardom or Complete Bowing Mastery™(perhaps the most annoying phrase ever uttered on this forum by the way) or whatever you call what in reality is just "being happy with your playing." 

And if you're at work, and can't pick up the fiddle, here's an idea... keep working. I'm pretty sure they don't pay you to post on fiddle hangout.

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Best post in this entire thread.  Just made my evening.

tonyelder - Posted - 01/28/2013:  18:46:21

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Personal preferences.... what you're saying is, is that it's a matter of taste.

Yeah, that enters into it.  But when we are talking about Old Time, we are talking about a TRADITIONAL form of music, correct.   It's not just my personal preference... it's "What was the traditional preference?" or "How did the oldtimers do it?"

 

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"we are talking about a TRADITIONAL form of music, correct "  Are you really wanting to expand the scope of this discussion? I've already said that bowing is a part of Old Time fiddling, but I'm not going to blindly accept your interpretation of what is and is not traditional. I doubt you will find anyone willing to say that they play traditional fiddle just exactly like Tommy or __________. So, what is traditional?

pogo - I have come to grips with the fact that I will never be your favorite fiddler. I know that now. 

For me - this is fiddling: When I hear a tune / song that I like, that is the tune or song I attempt to learn. For me - it doesn't really matter how old it is or if it is the earliest, or who is playing it. So, yes - for me - it is about personal preferences. If I like it, that is what I will try to learn. And even then - I'm not foolish enough to think I can play anything exactly like someone else anyway - but I'll let that be what I aim for. But I've got a dollar that says that even they don't do it exactly the same way either.

My attitude about traditions? I like the attitudes expressed in this video. (warning: it 40 minutes long, but worth watching) These are some of my heroes when it comes to honoring "tradition". 

folkstreams.net/film,153

Edited by - tonyelder on 01/28/2013 18:51:22

tonyelder - Posted - 01/28/2013:  19:58:13

PS - The video is not about bowing patterns, or even about fiddling (though it is in there). This was offered more in response as a way to help identify and answer the question - what is "traditional music"?

If you aren't interested in watching the whole 40 minutes of video, but would like to see the "meat" of what I am pointing to - the fast forward to around the 37:40 mark and start there.

Mike:  "I fell like we are picking up this music from where is was left off. And we're going to carry it on. Some of us will want to play it like it was, and some of us will warp it around a little, mix different elements together. And some of us will write new tunes and songs based in traditions. And that's pretty much the way tradition has always worked." 

Alice: "And it's not just a question of keeping the music alive, but integrating it into our own lives and of it having meaning along side the way we live now."