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fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/16/2013: 01:26:35
quote:
Originally posted by MikeyBoy
I was thinking about what was said back on page 17, and though at first I thought he was way off base, I can see now he might actually have a point.
Ummmm.... which "he" are you talking about??? Not a whole lot of Pogo-posts on that page, so I don't think it's me....
GeeDubya - Posted - 12/16/2013: 03:32:25
Pogo! Med adjustment needed. 
Why, oh why did we exhume this thread? And why, dear God, am I adding to it?
tonyelder - Posted - 12/16/2013: 07:44:01
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
How the oldtimers talked or didn't talk or taught or didn't teach it is irrelevant. Especially since most of 'em are gone. I mean, if they were alive, talking in their presence, I would want to be "culturally sensitive" and all that good stuff.... "When in Mt Airy, do as the Mt. Airians do!"What? Do you think talking about their bowing this way has them "spinning in their graves"???
pogo... is that you?
OTJunky - Posted - 12/16/2013: 09:04:27
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Originally posted by fiddlepogo
... why do you keep reading them?
Glutton for punishment? Curious onlooker at a crime scene????
I scan the "Active Topics" for things that INTEREST me... if I think it's going to be an eye-glazer for me, I skip it!
SOMETHING attracts you to bowing threads like a moth to flame... the question is... WHAT IS IT????
I'd say "Curious onlooker at a crime scene." best sums it up...
--OTJ
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/16/2013: 13:03:08
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
Pogo! Med adjustment needed.
You can blame Humbled, as usual!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/16/2013: 14:09:53
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
How the oldtimers talked or didn't talk or taught or didn't teach it is irrelevant. Especially since most of 'em are gone. I mean, if they were alive, talking in their presence, I would want to be "culturally sensitive" and all that good stuff.... "When in Mt Airy, do as the Mt. Airians do!"
What? Do you think talking about their bowing this way has them "spinning in their graves"???
pogo... is that you?
The fact that it surprises you indicates a basic difference here. And that's why I made the point.
Wearing a fedora like the oldtimers won't make you a better fiddler. Wearing bib overalls like some of the oldtimers won't make you a better fiddler.
Talking like the oldtimers won't make you a better fiddler.
Talking about bowing the way the oldtimers talked about it, or NOT talking about it the way they didn't talk about it,
WILL NOT HELP YOU BOW LIKE THEM.
It's IRRELEVANT to PLAYING. It might be relevant as a cultural artifact, but that's it.
I like Bluegrass fiddling A LOT.... way more than I used to in the '70's. But I still like Old Time fiddling better.
But I like the way Bluegrassers think and talk about their playing better. They are more results oriented, treat it more like they would auto mechanics or anything else. They can analyze it, tab it out, call the technique whatever they want. What counts with them is the end result of how you PLAY.... not how you think and talk about how you play. I LIKE that! Among too much of the Old Time crowd, what counts is how you think and talk about how you play.... and it frankly seems like horsepuckey to me!!! Or at the very least a misapplication of folklore.
If it's wrong to use terms about bowing the oldtimers didn't use, well, it's wrong to learn a tune from the internet!!!
It's also DEAD WRONG to play with a clawhammer player who uses... GASP!!!! TABLATURE!!!! OH, THE HORROR!!! The oldtimer banjo pickers never used that.... why... it'll RUIN YOUR PLAYING if you so much as TOUCH the stuff!!! Tell your clawhammer playing pals that the ONLY way to go is to WING IT!!!!
If your gonna go Luddite, be consistent and go all the way.
(In case your wondering, I'm mostly talking PAST YOU, Tony, and yeah... ranting about a pet peeve... an objection fielded by certain people who say they don't enjoy bowing threads, but sure enjoy coming and snidely SNIPING and GRIPING at them!!!)
I'm not saying Bluegrassers are perfect, or clawhammer banjo players don't have issues... hey they're human. But there's this certain weirdness, I only get from Old Time players, and only about bowing. The result is that Bluegrass banjo pickers can talk about or tab their techniques, Old Time clawhammer players can talk about or tab their techniques.... and somehow on Old Time fiddle it's VERBOTEN???? Gimme a royal BREAK!!!!
And the bottom line is.... instead of asking about bowing in a thread like this where it ought to be asked, and possibly benefiting SOME of the 271 fiddler lovers who are online now (at least those that are wired for it), if someone wants specific bowing info, I get people e-mailing me instead because of the snipers and gripers, which I think is a tragic waste of this Fiddle Hangout. And every time these threads get resurrected, I'm reminded of that waste.
dsreiner - Posted - 12/17/2013: 20:17:22
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Dave Reiner who started this thread has been quiet lately... I think he's still working on his fiddle bowing book, which will almost certainly have an accompanying DVD. So he's putting his bow where his mouth, or rather keyboard has been... but it'll cost ya- when it comes out!
And I'll be first to pony up. Hey Dave, how close are we?
It'll be out two years ago 
.
In truth, my son Andy and I are working on it and hope to have it out next year.
We're including 90 great tunes in different styles to put bowing in context.
Dave
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/17/2013: 20:45:21
quote:
Originally posted by dsreiner
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Dave Reiner who started this thread has been quiet lately... I think he's still working on his fiddle bowing book, which will almost certainly have an accompanying DVD. So he's putting his bow where his mouth, or rather keyboard has been... but it'll cost ya- when it comes out!
And I'll be first to pony up. Hey Dave, how close are we?
It'll be out two years ago
In truth, my son Andy and I are working on it and hope to have it out next year.
We're including 90 great tunes in different styles to put bowing in context.
Dave
I'm all for putting bowing in context- but it sounds like doing that is a lot of hard work!!!
Very possibly more work than you reckoned on.
Lemme guess- the book part is mostly done, but the videos are taking longer than expected, because either you have to do so many retakes or so much editing!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/18/2013: 21:39:07
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
Yet you fail to grasp why your "patterns" are all wrong. If you simply bowed the supposed pattern backwards, would it still be the same pattern? If you look in the mirror is it you? A mental simulacrum might be well and fun discussed here at the hangout, yet when playing live how much do these fixed patterns help; indeed, might they not actually do more to harm? To whit, what if the muse wishes to lightning bolt some new idea to a fiddler playing "Soldier's Joy," but he's too locked into a Nashville shuffle to hear, taste, touch, or feel what new experience--bowing--might come from playing in the moment, to opening up oneself to mistakes and magic? (For through mistakes and working through them comes the magic!)
Pattern playing is way too safe. It's playing not to win but simply not to lose.
Fiddlers of the world unite. You've nothing to lose but your chai...bowing patterns
....
(There. Somewhat satisfied, Humbled proudly hits the "Post Reply" button. Besides, it's better than repairing the busted sprinklers from last weeks hard frost.)
Simulacrum? Whuzzat?? An artificial crumb??? WHY????
boxbow - Posted - 12/19/2013: 07:50:20
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
Yet you fail to grasp why your "patterns" are all wrong. If you simply bowed the supposed pattern backwards, would it still be the same pattern? If you look in the mirror is it you? A mental simulacrum might be well and fun discussed here at the hangout, yet when playing live how much do these fixed patterns help; indeed, might they not actually do more to harm? To whit, what if the muse wishes to lightning bolt some new idea to a fiddler playing "Soldier's Joy," but he's too locked into a Nashville shuffle to hear, taste, touch, or feel what new experience--bowing--might come from playing in the moment, to opening up oneself to mistakes and magic? (For through mistakes and working through them comes the magic!)
Pattern playing is way too safe. It's playing not to win but simply not to lose.
Fiddlers of the world unite. You've nothing to lose but your chai...bowing patterns
....
(There. Somewhat satisfied, Humbled proudly hits the "Post Reply" button. Besides, it's better than repairing the busted sprinklers from last weeks hard frost.)
Simulacrum? Whuzzat?? An artificial crumb??? WHY????
Think of it as a tidbyte. A virtual morsel. Digital chaff.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/21/2013: 09:31:50
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
Last month I naively posted a new topic simply titled "Bowing". The simplicity of the title indicates how little I knew about the complexity of the subject. Now here I am in the mother of all bowing threads.
What I have found useful for me is learning patterns. The first page here is a great resource, and I don't think it's terribly difficult to follow. I'm almost fluent with the synco-shuffle (1-2-1-2-1-1). I can now interchange it with the Nashville shuffle, and it adds alot to certain tunes. By the way, it was something of a revelation just to hear it said that the Nashville shuffle can get boring if it's over used.
I would like to become more fluent in my playing. That to me means less thinking and less analysis. Ironically, by learning the specific patterns I can be less analytical in my playing. If I stick to the pattern I don't have to worry about bow direction, it's sorted. I like starting on a down-bow. So, I'm open now for the muse to come at certain points in a tune and choose Nashville or Synco for me. Granted, it's not lightning bolt - more of a faint firelfly deep in the woods. But it's great fun when you play something that sounds good and seemed to come from you subconscious.
I must say a haven't heard much compelling argument for the advantages of anywhichway bowing. I can see how the freedom of it allows for the potential of greater inspiration. But too much choice sometimes makes things more confounding. I have become a fairly decent cook here in Namibia, and I think the reason is because the choice of fresh produce is very limited. I might go to the store and find fresh spinach which I haven't seen in months. It's exciting to see and I'm going to find a way to use it. I check what else is available, new ideas come. It doesn't always come out great, but sometimes there's a little spark of inspiration. And without the limited choices I doubt the new dish would have come about. I see patterns as the limiting of choices which ironically can lead to innovation.
Does anyone have any advice in how to approach anywhichway bowing. Many of the first tunes I worked out were basically nashville w/ sawstrokes (essentially anywhichway I would say). Now when I play them they sound so weak that I want to relearn them with a more of a pattern approach. On the other hand I want to keep alive the possibility of greater inspiration.
I guess what I'm asking is does anyone have practice techniques for non-patterned bowing. For patterned bowing it's clear: play the new pattern over and over until it happens without thinking.
It's a matter of "the right tool for the job".
While I use pattern bowing for Old Time fiddle tunes to give a rhythmically strong aggressive effect, there are times when I DON'T want that effect-
I want the fiddle to sound more like a human voice... more LYRICAL. Human voices don't "shuffle"!
Waltzes are good for that, in fact, because you have two bowing directions, but 3 beats to a measure in waltzes, trying to keep track of bowing direction is difficult.
Slow "airs" (melodies) in 4/4 also work well with "Anywhichway".
I also find in my attempts at Irish Trad fiddling that I want a more lyrical sound- wind instruments are pervasive in Irish music, and wind instruments phrase more like a human voice. So overt rhythmic things in the bowing really don't fit.
In my recent attempt at learning to play drums, I've learned that one feature in drumming is to add extra subdivisions to space things out. Hoedown fiddlers often do this, and patterns are a frequent tool to do it with.
One reason I suspect is this. There have always been popular songs. But people like to dance too. They like it even more when they can dance to their favorite popular song. BUT, as sung, most songs make lousy dance music. They need to be tweaked or modified to do the job.
There are two ways in which fiddlers do this.
1. You can add extra notes to the melody. This is fun, and sounds good, but the problem is that the result is hard for people to sing to- the extra notes confuse them and get in the way! They make great solo pieces for fiddle- examples: Turkey in the Straw, Golden Slippers, Buffalo Gals and Redwing all started as songs. This approach sometimes gets called "Hornpipey Fiddling" since the result tends to make everything sound a little like a hornpipe.
This approach is partly driven by melodic considerations like creativity, but I think it's also driven by bowing considerations like someone being more comfortable with sawstroke than anything else.
2. You can add extra pulses to the long notes... it can sound odd in a way, but a person who knows the song can easily sing to it. You can hear this a lot in Round Peak fiddling... they are more likely to do that than to add extra notes. Possible reasons: They sing a lot in Round Peak style, and the banjo melody sticks pretty close to the sung melody, This approach tends to get called "Hoedown" style. Hoedown fiddlers tend NOT to use much sawstroke at all.
3. Some fiddlers like to choose one way or the other... but I like to do both. Both hornpipey fiddling and hoedown fiddling are part of the tradition, and I want to draw on both parts of the tradition. One way that works is that in D and G which are very common keys in Old Time music, you have lots of drones available when playing a melody on the low strings, and I find it natural to hype the rhythms in a hoedowny way on the low passages, then go to a more notey, hornpipey approach on the high part. This gives good contrast, and I think makes the tune more listenable, which is a consideration since Old Time fiddling has become listening music as well as dance music. Since many sawstrokers have a down-up downbowing orientation, and that kind of sawstroke bounces nicely and fits well with clawhammer banjo, fitting in patterns that also have a downbow orientation works well.
I thought I was inventing the term "Anywhichway"... but Brad Maloney claims to have invented it years before! I'll let HIM take credit!
Since I use it to describe an approach I myself use where I think it's appropriate... I don't see that I'm using in a derogatory way.
One possible factor in the popularity of the Nashville Shuffle:
It's fairly common knowledge that the wave of German immigrants in 1848 brought the waltz with them and it became so popular that it became a staple of the Old Time fiddlers repertoire and the traditional last dance at square dances. However, they brought polkas with them too. Polkas were very popular, and even made it into Irish music as a dance type... but not in US Old Time. Polkas also feature a long-short-short rhythm, and I think the popularity of polkas may have influenced the 4/4 and 2/4 Old Time dance rhythms by making the long-short-short-long-short-short of Nashville Shuffle more appealing.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/21/2013: 10:47:44
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
Well to to sum up the by now nearly decade long bowing debates - by stating the extreme positions.
One camp argues for learning a catalog of basic bowing patterns that fit within a measure and believes that once you've learned some subset of bowing patterns well enough you can play any tune by using the already learned set of bowing patterns.
The other camp argues there are only four basic bowings in old time fiddling - the saw stroke (one note per bow), the two note slur (two notes per bow), the three note slur (three notes per bow), and the pulsed up-bow (where two notes are articulated on the same up bow so they don't sound slurred). This camp argues that if you just learn these four basic bowings, then you use them in any combination to phrase any tune you play.
The pattern bowing camp thinks the catalog of patterns are such that you should always wind up on a down bow at the first beat of the measure and that if you don't you're bowing is "turned around" and can't convey the proper rhythm. The other camp believes that with the use of the pulsed up bow, you can pretty much decide where within each tune where you want to wind up on a down or up bow and that makes it more interesting rhythmically. In other words that camp things the rhythm should be tailored to the tune rather than having the tune tailored to preset rhythms.
The pattern bowing camp has labelled the other camp as "anywhichway" bowers - somewhat unfairly in my opinion. I think this is because pattern bowers worry a lot about which notes are played on down bows vs up bows. So they tend to classify fiddlers as "down bowers" or "up bowers" and need to have some term to use for fiddlers who want to tailor the rhythm to the tune rather than fitting the tune to pre-learned rhythms.
Of course, there are many more nuances here. And few people if any will agree with my just written succinct summary of it. So these bowing threads go on forever.
--OTJ
That's not too bad a summary...
HOWEVER: (you knew there had to be a however, didn't ya?)
There's a basic weakness in the Anywhichway (aka NON-pattern bowing camp) approach.
There is a promise of freedom "you can use them in any combination"-
BUT there are problems with that freedom:
1. Old Time fiddle tunes are NOT horribly complex melodically. Usually a chain of short notes ending with a long note. Occasionally you have phrases of short notes ending with a long note or two. Since they are somewhat predictable, a "pre-fab" option is pretty workable.
2. "Any combination" is EASY to say, but it's actually quite hard to do, when you are moving this clumsy thing called a bow around. In actual fact, "Anywhichway" players tend to default to some very predictable strategies.
For instance, "Syncoshuffle" (1-2-1-2-1-1) has a 2 note slur done TWO ways- the first 2 note slur starts on a weak note, and ends on a strong note, the second 2 note slur starts on a strong note and ends on a weak note. Learning the Syncoshuffle pattern teaches you how to do both. But when I observe Anywhichway players, they tend to follow the path of least resistance, and choose whichever of the two ways is easier for them- usually going from stronger to weaker, as in Nashville.
Also, there is a tendency to get comfortable with the timing of two note slurs.... and prefer them over 3 note slurs. Theoretically you could easily combine Nashville Shuffle (two note slurs) with Georgia Shuffle (3 note slurs) but in actual fact, I don't see many fiddlers do that.
So, in hearing the word pattern, we tend to get this unpleasant connotation "Ugh- how PREDICTABLE!" But in actual fact, the pattern may be teaching you to bow in a less predictable way- I can do two note slurs from strong to weak notes, or from weak to strong notes, and have no particular bias towards 2 note or 3 note slurs- how about you?
3. Sawstroke is EXTREMELY pervasive in Old Time fiddling, and sawstrokers are often the ones who talk the loudest against patterns. But sawstroke is actually a pattern of a sort- it's consistent, repetitive, and predictable. Somewhere on YouTube, I saw a fiddler literally sawstroking all the way through the tune- no long bow strokes at all, and the results were WORSE than hearing someone do the same thing with Nashville all the way through!
To avoid that horror, sawstroke players DO use patterns to break it up- and since down-up sawstroke is quite common, those patterns also have a downbow orientation. The thing is, the patterns are only done once, so someone listening and watching might not see it, and the fiddler themselves might not be aware of it. But when you analyze the moves.... it's Nashville, or Georgia, or 3-3-1-1 (Smoothshuffle)!
4. "You can use them in any combination". Again, it sounds good... we Americans LOVE the promise of freedom ringing in that statement... BUT in actual fact, those combinations are NOT created rhythmically EQUAL. Sorry, but it's TRUE. Some combinations have a cool sounding, danceable groove, and some just sit there. You COULD go through all those combinations yourself, and figure out which ones have the cool grooves... but that's reinventing the wheel! And it takes extra time.... and fiddling is arguably one of the most difficult, time consuming folk instruments there is? Can you REALLY afford to take time to reinvent the wheel?
The fact is that guys like Brad Leftwich have already told us which combinations the oldtimers found to sound cool and Old Time.
5. Control. The bow is a whole lot harder to control than a flatpick or bare fingers.... it takes time and practice.
One of the reasons why Sawstroke and Nashville are so common in Old Time is that their very repetitiveness allows people to GAIN CONTROL of them. I have found that to avoid constant sawstroke in hornpipes, and constant Nashville in hoedowns, treating variations as patterns allows me to GAIN RHYTHMIC control just like I did by repeating Nashville and sawstroke ad nauseam.
This is especially important because Old Time fiddling is dance music, and sometimes that needs to be played FAST. I've found a chain of well practiced patterns to be well nigh unbreakable when sped up. In contrast, custom bowings that seem so appealing at a slow speed, often reveal hidden flaws when sped up. If you want to play fast, TRIED and TRUE is a much surer way to go! This may be one of the reasons why Bluegrass fiddlers are often rather pattern oriented... they NEED to have the SPEED available, and patterns offer them the unshakeable control to GET IT.
Then, there is this possibility of going BEYOND patterns.... AFTER you have been thoroughly schooled in patterns.
When I started out in fiddling, I started out bowing melodies, one stroke per note, just following the melody.
When I'm at a folk, bluegrass or acoustic jam, and I'm not playing fiddle tunes.... I'm also bowing anywhichway... but in a much more fluent way than I did at the beginning, and I never would have been able to bow so fluently without getting immersed in patterns... the patterns DISCIPLED ME, they APPRENTICED ME in the art of slurring, and even when I leave them behind, the phrasing lessons are there.
Likewise, although as I said Old Time tunes tend to be simple collections of short notes (usually written as sixteenth or eighth notes) and notes that are twice as long. Better than 95% of the time, I find a preexisting pattern in my pattern toolbox does the trick for any new tune I learn.
(Once I sat in with a band, and the band was trying to throw me with new tunes.... I kept up... and the fiddler said "How do you work out the bowings so quickly???" Well... I gave YOU the answer!)
However, occasionally a new tune DOES phrase in a different way, and requires me to woodshed to come up with a new bowing. Again, what I learned from the patterns helps me make educated guesses as to what combinations of slurs and single notes will work best.
The problem with this "beyond patterns" talk is that it's seductive for beginners or intermediate players- and they think they can "go beyond patterns" well before they've learned very many of them at all.
The two most common results are:
1. Unconsciously picking a lot of safe choices- sawstroke, Nashville and two note slurs, that really boils down to the MOST BASIC pattern bowing!
2. Rhythmic HASH.
Of the two, the first choice is a WHOLE lot more appealing. The problem is that often those people advocate "Anywhichway" and other people try it who perhaps don't have the rhythmic sense, and those people end up with the rhythmic hash. And the irony is that these advocates are often simply using elementary pattern bowing moves! If someone wanted me to teach them how to play like one of these fiddlers, I could probably easily do it with pattern analysis!
(BTW... for you younger folks- "Hash" in this context has NOTHING to do with hashish- "hash" was cheap or leftover cuts of meat run through a meat grinder along with potatoes and maybe old bread. In this context, "hash" means a mangled mess!)
Because there are whole bunches of beginning and intermediate fiddlers hanging out here at the Fiddle Hangout, I have to continue to advocate an approach that will teach them the bowing lessons they need to learn, and will give them more predictable results.
That being said... "Anywhichway" has it's place- when starting out, in slow tunes, and when you want a lyrical, voice-like quality. And I still use it when reading a tune from notation the first time, and for slow airs and waltzes.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/21/2013: 11:33:54
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
Then would it be fair to say that there is less of a divide between the two camps when it comes to hornpipes?
By the way, "anywhichway" might carry a bit of a negative connotation. In my mind it doesn't sound too far above haphazard.
Well, before I used anywhichway, I tried using "bidirectional bowing"... but all bowing is bi-directional, and someone disliked the prefix "bi-"
.
To be accurate, it would have be "bidirectionally accented bowing" and that's a MOUTHFUL. In my experience, such terms NEVER catch on.
In the context of fiddling "Anywhichway" can only be one of TWO ways.... and it implies a certain pragmatism... "Whatever works!" with no guiding philosophy.
However, there is something to be said for the negative connotation- it warns of the danger inherent in the "anywhichway" approach- without a lot of listening and a good sense of rhythm, you might just get the "rhythmic hash" I talked about.
Another way of saying it- rhythmic grooves are NOT random... they are predictable. Perhaps made fuzzy around the edges (as in "fuzzy logic") to avoid sounding mechanical, but still predictable. Patterns offer the predictability needed to nail the predicability of the grooves needed. And there is a danger of "Anywhichway" taken to the extreme that can result in too much randomness to offer a danceable (or foot-tappable) groove.
And "randomness" = "haphazard" pretty well, I think.
As for a middle ground, not quite in the way you'd think.
You can:
1. Think about patterns and GET patterns
2. Not think about patterns and somehow accidentally or intuitively or subconsciously get patterns
3. Not thing about patterns and get random haphazard hash.
The middle option may SEEM different in the process of playing it, since the analytical mind is shut off. But in hindsight, you can look at the actual playing, and BEHOLD:
PATTERNS!!!
This is why I said in a previous post that I don't care so much how the oldtimers talked or didn't talk about patterns- as much as how they actually PLAYED. I don't know what Melvin Wine thought or said about patterns, but the videos on YouTube make it clear to me that he used them!
I actually don't want to discourage anybody from TRYING to bow "Anywhichway". You should try it.... and more than once. Try it at the beginning... and see what you get.... listen a lot.... and see what you get.
MAYBE you are just naturally so rhythmically gifted in your subconscious, that you can nail wonderful grooves without analysis!!!
If so, congratulations- your'e a rare bird!
For your average person... especially your average person of a European cultural background- the results are not likely to be so stellar.
So I think a "two pronged approach" is needed, especially if you are going to learn to play Old Time or Bluegrass.
1. Some anywhichway playing to learn how to control the bow in terms of tone, and to learn to play in a flowing, lyrical way.
2. Focused pattern studies to learn what makes a groove "tick".
At some point, the patterns become so innate, that you can shut off the left brain, and apply them intuitively.
But the fiddler who did the conscious study of traditional patterns at the beginning will be more likely to be using a great variety of patterns than someone who just did "Anywhichway" all along. Exceptions may exist for intuitive rhythmic geniuses!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/21/2013: 11:37:32
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
2. Rhythmic HASH.
Of the two, the first choice is a WHOLE lot more appealing. The problem is that often those people advocate "Anywhichway" and other people try it who perhaps don't have the rhythmic sense, and those people end up with the rhythmic hash. And the irony is that these advocates are often simply using elementary pattern bowing moves! If someone wanted me to teach them how to play like one of these fiddlers, I could probably easily do it with pattern analysis!
(BTW... for you younger folks- "Hash" in this context has NOTHING to do with hashish- "hash" was cheap or leftover cuts of meat run through a meat grinder along with potatoes and maybe old bread. In this context, "hash" means a mangled mess!)
And hash might make this whole topic a little more enjoyable--and understandable.
I might have known I could count on you for that!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/21/2013: 12:12:47
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
Then would it be fair to say that there is less of a divide between the two camps when it comes to hornpipes?
By the way, "anywhichway" might carry a bit of a negative connotation. In my mind it doesn't sound too far above haphazard.
No the divide is pretty much the same for hornpipe fiddling.
In U.S. old time fiddlng "hornpipe fiddling" doesn't have much to do with the European definition of a hornpipe. Instead it means playing mostly single notes phrased in such a way as to convey the rhythm though U.S. hornpipe fiddlers certainly throw in a double stop or a drone every now and then when it suits them.
Probably our greatest fiddler in the U.S. hornpipe style was Cyril Stinnett from Missouri - and his older mentor Bob Walters from Iowa.
When playing in the U.S. old time hornpipe style you can either use patterns to convey the rhythm as Pogo likes to do - or you can just use the four basic strokes I described above and mix them up in whatever way you think suits the tune - as Stinnett did.
My objection to the term "anywhichway" is that it implies a certain randomness. The bowing of fiddlers who prefer to tailor their bowing to phrase the tune rather than fit the tune to a set of patterns is anything but random.
--OTJ
"Rather than fit the tune to a set of patterns"-
You're misrepresenting here, OTJ.
"Fitting the tune to the pattern" only takes place at the lowest level of pattern playing.
If you have only one or two patterns, and never stray from that one or two... SOMETHING has to give, and yeah, tunes get mangled trying to fit the tune to the one pattern (although in my experience it's amazing how little mangling takes place with the right two patterns- but neither one is Nashville!)
The whole reason for expanding the set of patterns beyond one or two is so that you can find a pattern to fit the tune, and not squish and mangle the tunes. And yet, you still have all the benefits of patterns.... everything is solid and reliable... you don't have any hidden "weak links".
It's really amazing to me-
we've ALL heard a one-pattern fiddling squishing and mangling a tune... and the results can REALLY make you want to do it differently!
Only the "different" ends up being two different directions:
1. Some people think "If that's what patterns do, I'll avoid them!"
2. Others think" "If that's what using only ONE pattern does, I'd better learn a few more!"
I chose the latter route... and, you can hear the results in my music section.
I ended a 15 year fiddling hiatus in 2005- any recording in 2006 or close to it will be featuring mostly 1-1-1-3-1-1 and 3-3-1-1.... maybe some 1-3-1-1-1-1-1, which is after all just an offset of 1-1-1-3-1-1)
(It's INTERESTING to see some of the favorable comments those recordings garnered!)
Anything in the last two or 3 years will feature more Syncoshuffle (1-2-1-2-1-1) and Offset Nashville (1-2-1-1-2-1).
One thing you won't hear much of is Nashville- except in the recording of "Lady of the Lake" from about 1975.
The irony is, that because I avoided the single
most common and notorious pattern in the post-2005 recordings, some people probably wouldn't have KNOWN I was a pattern fiddler if I hadn't TOLD them!
So I think it's pretty clear my approach hasn't led to much tune-mangling or squishing at all.
'Cause when you HEAR a tune with nothing but the Sawshuffle (1-1-1-3-1-1) and Smoothshuffle (3-3-1-1) patterns, all you really hear is a bunch of sawstroke with a few well placed slurs!
So... here you get the ultimate irony....
an "anywhichwayer" who uses Nashville stands a good chance of getting pegged as a "pattern bower"...
and a pattern bower who DOESN'T use it could easily make people think he's an "anywhichwayer"- or a sawstroker- if he'd just keep quiet about it!!!
Which I OBVIOUSLY have a terribly hard time doing!!!
GeeDubya - Posted - 12/21/2013: 15:41:44
Amen. This whole discussion becomes dichotomous - us/them. right/wrong, Catholic/Protestant. There's more than one way to skin the cat, folks. It's shades of gray - not black & white. Leave it be. Enjoy the fiddling & have a very happy holiday. Cheers to all.
Edited by - GeeDubya on 12/21/2013 15:42:42
tonyelder - Posted - 12/21/2013: 20:31:25
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo'Cause when you HEAR a tune with nothing but the Sawshuffle (1-1-1-3-1-1) and Smoothshuffle (3-3-1-1) patterns, all you really hear is a bunch of sawstroke with a few well placed slurs!
So... here you get the ultimate irony....
an "anywhichwayer" who uses Nashville stands a good chance of getting pegged as a "pattern bower"...
and a pattern bower who DOESN'T use it could easily make people think he's an "anywhichwayer"- or a sawstroker- if he'd just keep quiet about it!!!
Which I OBVIOUSLY have a terribly hard time doing!!!
And herein lies the very point I've been trying to make - all along.
If you can't hear any difference, then...... what are we suppose to think about of all this stuff?
So the argument then gets reduced to: The real difference in the "2 camps" lies in the emphasis on what "has to be learned" to get it right.
One camp says you have to learn, practice, perfect those bowing patterns before you can really play old time fiddle tunes.
The other camps suggests that - if there are any patterns in the tunes - they are learned as you learn the tunes. You have learned all you need to know about the pattern when you have captured the rhythmic feel and melody of any tune. When it sounds it is good. all that went into that process is what you carry with you to all the other tunes you have learned or will learn.
pogo has made my point for me. Neither method is going to guarantee that you will be a good old time fiddler. You can be a good fiddler if you work at being a good fiddler. Learn from wherever you can, and whatever makes sense to you, and keep doing what works best for you.
There is no NEED to make a separate study or discipline out of bowing patterns. It wasn't done in the past.
But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, just because it wsn'.t done back then. So, pogo has analyzed this pattern stuff to pieces and gave all of them names, for the benefit of those who want that sort of thing. ALL of which is fine - if that is the best way for you to "get it".
But not everyone is looking for that. And it is wearisome to have to hear it repeated so many times that anywhichwayers have little or no hope of "getting it" because they don't learn the patterns first. No one has to believe that pattern bowing is the only way. Doing it on your own has always been an acceptable method - it has a long history, more tradition, and with more than adequate results (we pretty much revere those who learned that way).
Edited by - tonyelder on 12/21/2013 20:43:39
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/21/2013: 22:34:47
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
I suppose I should've mentioned that one camp tends to write short succinct posts about bowing.
While the other camp tends to write unusually long, often repetitive posts that are sometimes hard to follow all the way through.
--OTJ
Well.... it really doesn't take very many words to say "Bah, humbug!"
(Hey... appropriate time of year for that, eh?)
Nor do the various ways of saying "I'd really rather not THINK about that!" require very many words.
And "just do it!" is quite short, too! Not very helpful, though!
And, pray tell.... how many times do you suppose you've trotted out the "building blocks" idea of single strokes and two and three note slurs?
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/21/2013: 23:31:18
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo'Cause when you HEAR a tune with nothing but the Sawshuffle (1-1-1-3-1-1) and Smoothshuffle (3-3-1-1) patterns, all you really hear is a bunch of sawstroke with a few well placed slurs!
So... here you get the ultimate irony....
an "anywhichwayer" who uses Nashville stands a good chance of getting pegged as a "pattern bower"...
and a pattern bower who DOESN'T use it could easily make people think he's an "anywhichwayer"- or a sawstroker- if he'd just keep quiet about it!!!
Which I OBVIOUSLY have a terribly hard time doing!!!
And herein lies the very point I've been trying to make - all along.
If you can't hear any difference, then...... what are we suppose to think about of all this stuff?
So the argument then gets reduced to: The real difference in the "2 camps" lies in the emphasis on what "has to be learned" to get it right.
One camp says you have to learn, practice, perfect those bowing patterns before you can really play old time fiddle tunes.
The other camps suggests that - if there are any patterns in the tunes - they are learned as you learn the tunes. You have learned all you need to know about the pattern when you have captured the rhythmic feel and melody of any tune. When it sounds it is good. all that went into that process is what you carry with you to all the other tunes you have learned or will learn.
pogo has made my point for me. Neither method is going to guarantee that you will be a good old time fiddler. You can be a good fiddler if you work at being a good fiddler. Learn from wherever you can, and whatever makes sense to you, and keep doing what works best for you.
There is no NEED to make a separate study or discipline out of bowing patterns. It wasn't done in the past.
But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, just because it wsn'.t done back then. So, pogo has analyzed this pattern stuff to pieces and gave all of them names, for the benefit of those who want that sort of thing. ALL of which is fine - if that is the best way for you to "get it".
But not everyone is looking for that. And it is wearisome to have to hear it repeated so many times that anywhichwayers have little or no hope of "getting it" because they don't learn the patterns first. No one has to believe that pattern bowing is the only way. Doing it on your own has always been an acceptable method - it has a long history, more tradition, and with more than adequate results (we pretty much revere those who learned that way).
It has to do with how fast and how well you can learn it, and how solid and stable your fiddling is once you've learned it.
You're a bluegrasser. You know how fast they can play. Can you take your bowing to a Bluegrass jam and have it keep up? I can.
And it's not because I'm so coordinated.... it's because I'm using a more efficient bowing method.
I can bow a tune as fast as they can play it... the challenge is getting my left hand to keep up with my bowing.
And that's as it should be.... I'm right handed!!! If your dominant hand is having a hard time keeping up with your weak hand, you must be doing something wrong or inefficient with the dominant hand!
And it's not like I'm doing something unusual for Bluegrass, except the choice of patterns- they go with the tried and true bowing approaches, and so do I- the difference being that I've got several patterns in my toolkit that they usually don't.
And my drumming experience is only reinforcing my thinking on this.
1. I started out with the drumming equivalent of "Anywhichway" and sawstroke (single stroking)
2. I started putting paradiddle and roll patterns on the "back burner" (practice pad)
3. At some point, the paradiddle or roll is ready to come off of the practice pad and get applied to the drumset.
Actually just a few days ago, I was able to apply the single paradiddle to a cymbal, snare, and two toms for one repeat.... and it sounds SO COOL!
I could frankly have never intuited what I'm doing now with the paradiddle had I not studied it.
Knowing a pattern (or paradiddle) by heart allows you to experiment in a way that you can't when it's not memorized.
Also.... you missed it.... it's not that it doesn't make any difference.
Anywhichway bowers like to think that they are being subtle, when they often fall back to trite and true Nashville.
And a multipattern approach allows you to subtley fit bowings to the tune in the way anywhichway players claim to be able to do.
The thing I see anywhichwayers not taking into consideration is "the path of least resistance"... at some point, you are going to find one way of bowing something is easiest, and you will dig yourself a rut with it.
Patterns help me AVOID RUTS!!!! Every couple of years, a new bowing pattern becomes my favorite, and I see how many places I can use it.
The net result is that on some tunes, I could bow the same passage a half dozen or more different ways, and that helps me avoid being stuck in any one way- and yet.... all the variations are confident, because they are all well-practiced patterns. And because they are all equally easy, there is no "path of least resistance" bias.... I can pick the pattern that's best for that part of the tune.
Okay.... here's a metaphor for ya-
"matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match!"
A matchmaker is going to have better success if they know both people WELL.
Hopefully an Old Time fiddler has the tune memorized and knows it well.
But if you know a variety of bowings VERY WELL, you can "play matchmaker" and match those patterns to just the right phrases in a way that would be impossible or very nearly so if you did NOT know the pattern well.
And that's probably the best I can do, and it's getting late, and the alarm will go off tomorrow morning fairly early....
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/21/2013: 23:53:03
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo'Cause when you HEAR a tune with nothing but the Sawshuffle (1-1-1-3-1-1) and Smoothshuffle (3-3-1-1) patterns, all you really hear is a bunch of sawstroke with a few well placed slurs!
So... here you get the ultimate irony....
an "anywhichwayer" who uses Nashville stands a good chance of getting pegged as a "pattern bower"...
and a pattern bower who DOESN'T use it could easily make people think he's an "anywhichwayer"- or a sawstroker- if he'd just keep quiet about it!!!
Which I OBVIOUSLY have a terribly hard time doing!!!
And herein lies the very point I've been trying to make - all along.
If you can't hear any difference, then...... what are we suppose to think about of all this stuff?
So the argument then gets reduced to: The real difference in the "2 camps" lies in the emphasis on what "has to be learned" to get it right.
One camp says you have to learn, practice, perfect those bowing patterns before you can really play old time fiddle tunes.
The other camps suggests that - if there are any patterns in the tunes - they are learned as you learn the tunes. You have learned all you need to know about the pattern when you have captured the rhythmic feel and melody of any tune. When it sounds it is good. all that went into that process is what you carry with you to all the other tunes you have learned or will learn.
pogo has made my point for me. Neither method is going to guarantee that you will be a good old time fiddler. You can be a good fiddler if you work at being a good fiddler. Learn from wherever you can, and whatever makes sense to you, and keep doing what works best for you.
There is no NEED to make a separate study or discipline out of bowing patterns. It wasn't done in the past.
But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, just because it wsn'.t done back then. So, pogo has analyzed this pattern stuff to pieces and gave all of them names, for the benefit of those who want that sort of thing. ALL of which is fine - if that is the best way for you to "get it".
But not everyone is looking for that. And it is wearisome to have to hear it repeated so many times that anywhichwayers have little or no hope of "getting it" because they don't learn the patterns first. No one has to believe that pattern bowing is the only way. Doing it on your own has always been an acceptable method - it has a long history, more tradition, and with more than adequate results (we pretty much revere those who learned that way).
But they DIDN"T "do it on their own".
Didn't you watch that video interview with John W Summers??? Was he doing it on his own? No- his dad was giving him very specific bowing instruction- but NONVERBAL- by letting the boy's little hand ride on his bowing hand! Why... that mean father.... why didn't he let the boy do the bowing on his own!!!
Tommy Jarrell grew up with a fiddling dad.... and went over to neighbors that could play and cajoled them into showing him stuff- that's what he described in an itnerview. He had REAL TIME 3D access to bowing information. There were multiple kinds of wheels that he didn't have to reinvent that way!
Verbal descriptions of slurring patterns are just a way of replacing that up-close-and-personal bowing information that they were able to get, and we so seldom can.... well... unless you buy a DVD, or pay for a workshop!
So... if you have the same kind of access to bowing information that Tommy Jarrell and John W Summers had.... well yeah, I'd say THEN that there would be NO NEED to make it a separate study.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/22/2013: 00:05:18
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
Amen.
Dichotomous is the nature of debate.
Sometimes there actually are two contrasting approaches.
A few years back they smoothed out the components in a front wheel drive drivetrain so it worked well, and for a while, you have front wheel drive competing against rear wheel drive. For most applications, especially if there is snow or rain, front wheel drive won.
Or, you can have 4WD!!! Remember.... I actually DO use "anywhichway" for some purposes- so I'm not saying it's not a good tool sometimes-
I'm just saying that sometimes pattern bowing is just a vastly superior tool for high speed and rhythmically aggressive Old Time and Bluegrass bowing conditions!
tonyelder - Posted - 12/22/2013: 02:02:29
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
But they DIDN"T "do it on their own".
Didn't you watch that video interview with John W Summers??? Was he doing it on his own? No- his dad was giving him very specific bowing instruction- but NONVERBAL- by letting the boy's little hand ride on his bowing hand! Why... that mean father.... why didn't he let the boy do the bowing on his own!!!
Tommy Jarrell grew up with a fiddling dad.... and went over to neighbors that could play and cajoled them into showing him stuff- that's what he described in an itnerview. He had REAL TIME 3D access to bowing information. There were multiple kinds of wheels that he didn't have to reinvent that way!
Verbal descriptions of slurring patterns are just a way of replacing that up-close-and-personal bowing information that they were able to get, and we so seldom can.... well... unless you buy a DVD, or pay for a workshop!
So... if you have the same kind of access to bowing information that Tommy Jarrell and John W Summers had.... well yeah, I'd say THEN that there would be NO NEED to make it a separate study.
OK. Just like everything else, there is several ways to interpret a phrase like "do it on their own".
"Do it on their own" to me doesn't mean "no interaction with other fiddlers". pogo - I am around other fiddlers. Granted, my Dad and my neighbors are not Tommy Jarrell, but there are a good number of fiddlers around here, and there aren't many slouches.
But we are talking about learning bowing patterns as a separate discipline here - how essential they are. Now, do you want to tell me that I don't need to bother with learning bowing patterns - because I am around a lot of fiddlers?
I can find you several quotes from interviews with old fiddlers that pretty much say that they stole away with their popa's fiddle when they were told "do not touch". And when they were caught, they were told learn to play "Solider's Joy" (or some such) and popa would get them their own fiddle. Most of the accounts were - they figured it out for themselves. I can get those quotes I used earlier if you like.
Yes they were around other fiddlers. No they did not study bowing patterns, they learned to play the tunes.
Edited by - tonyelder on 12/22/2013 02:15:34
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