ChickenMan - Posted - 03/13/2014:  05:02:49

Yep that's 131313.... starting on a down bow

bowdragger - Posted - 03/13/2014:  06:26:32

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan



Yep that's 131313.... starting on a down bow

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Thanks, that's very clear and just what I needed to know in order to understand the numbering system you all use here

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/13/2014:  09:40:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by elviolinista

Not that I have any better ear than yours - or anybody's for that matter! - but what I've seen done before is

down-up-up-up

down-up-up-up

down-up-up-up, etc.

 

---

Yeah, that's what I call "the on-beat Georgia", and Pogo calls "the unshuffle" (as I recall).  It tends to give the beats (the first and fifth of the eight "time positions" in a measure (what I call SNP1 and SNP5)), a strong accent.  If you move that pattern two SNP's to the left or right, you get "the Georgia".  It tends to give a strong accent to the off-beats (Pogo's "back-beats") ... SNP3 and SNP7.  The Georgia is a bit harder to learn at first, because it has an upbowed 3-slur that crosses the bar lines, and that feels unfamiliar to many fiddlers.

OTJunky - Posted - 03/13/2014:  09:46:24

This is all well and good; but it doesn't have much to do with how you'd play "Uncle Pen".

"Uncle Pen" is played using the Georgia Shuffle:   2 - 1 - 3 - 2.

Or, if you prefer: down, down, up, down, down, down, up, up

--OTJ

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/13/2014:  10:17:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 

This is all well and good; but it doesn't have much to do with how you'd play "Uncle Pen".

"Uncle Pen" is played using the Georgia Shuffle:   2 - 1 - 3 - 2.

Or, if you prefer: down, down, up, down, down, down, up, up

--OTJ

---

That final "2" isn't part of the usual Georgia.  And it doesn't show the slur that crosses the bar lines, which is the most unusual part of that pattern.  Of course, to show that, you've got to show the bar lines, and you have to show at least a little more than one measure.  You could do something like this:

 ... D u | u u D u u u D u | u u ...

But I prefer this :

(sorry ... couldn't get it to work today ... wouldn't preserve the alignment, for some reason).

Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 03/13/2014 10:20:57

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/13/2014:  10:48:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

But I prefer this :

(sorry ... couldn't get it to work today ... wouldn't preserve the alignment, for some reason).

---

Here's the best I can do, unless and until I figure out why I can't get alignment across multiple lines any more:

... 1_|_1_1 1 1__1_1 1 1_|_1_1 1 ...

with the unslurred notes (usually) being downbowed, and the slurred notes (usually) being upbowed.  The pattern tends to strongly accent the unslurred notes.

Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 03/13/2014 10:50:04

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/13/2014:  11:47:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 

This is all well and good; but it doesn't have much to do with how you'd play "Uncle Pen".

"Uncle Pen" is played using the Georgia Shuffle:   2 - 1 - 3 - 2.

Or, if you prefer: down, down, up, down, down, down, up, up

--OTJ

---

As Mike says, that's not normal- that's a rather odd specimen of Georgia Shuffle.

Georgia Shuffle is built around 3 note slurs on the unaccented strokes, with single strokes in the opposite direction.

The two note slurs at the beginning and end could be a means of STARTING Georgia, since otherwise Georgia doesn't fit tidily within measure lines like Nashville Shuffle doesn.

The more common way among Bluegrass fiddlers is to put the single stroke on the downstroke, which mimics the second half of a normal downbowers Nashville Shuffle.

The Georgia example you cite is closest to the version used by Ken Kolodner, and bj's teacher.

Georgia Shuffle is the ONLY pattern that I'm likely to put the beginning on an upstroke, because it's my "turnaround" lick.

But I found an example where it was started like I start "Sawshuffle"

1-1-1-3-1-3-1-3-1-1.

I will give your take on Georgia Shuffle a shot, though!

petehay - Posted - 03/13/2014:  12:22:17

Georgia Shuffle tunes-

I'm just starting to attempt something more than the simple Nashville shuffle. By simple I mean quarter note/eighth note/eighth note. So really just sawstroke - no slurs.

Now that I've opened my eyes to slurs I'd like to work on the Georgia shuffle.

Could anyone give me some simple (well-known) tunes that lend themselves to the Georgia pattern - like "Bile Them Cabbage Down" lends itself to learning the Nashville shuffle?

Pete in Portland

OTJunky - Posted - 03/13/2014:  12:41:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 

This is all well and good; but it doesn't have much to do with how you'd play "Uncle Pen".

"Uncle Pen" is played using the Georgia Shuffle:   2 - 1 - 3 - 2.

Or, if you prefer: down, down, up, down, down, down, up, up

--OTJ

---

As Mike says, that's not normal- that's a rather odd specimen of Georgia Shuffle.

Georgia Shuffle is built around 3 note slurs on the unaccented strokes, with single strokes in the opposite direction.

The two note slurs at the beginning and end could be a means of STARTING Georgia, since otherwise Georgia doesn't fit tidily within measure lines like Nashville Shuffle doesn.

The more common way among Bluegrass fiddlers is to put the single stroke on the downstroke, which mimics the second half of a normal downbowers Nashville Shuffle.

The Georgia example you cite is closest to the version used by Ken Kolodner, and bj's teacher.

Georgia Shuffle is the ONLY pattern that I'm likely to put the beginning on an upstroke, because it's my "turnaround" lick.

But I found an example where it was started like I start "Sawshuffle"

1-1-1-3-1-3-1-3-1-1.

 

I will give your take on Georgia Shuffle a shot, though!

---

Well guys we're not exactly talking theoretical physics here.  It's just a fiddle tune and Bobby Hicks can show us exactly how it's played.

youtube.com/watch?v=-_TbkUo66IU

​Just keep mucking around with your bowing until you get your fiddle to sound like that...

--OTJ

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/13/2014:  12:59:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 Bobby Hicks can show us exactly how it's played.

youtube.com/watch?v=-_TbkUo66IU

 

---

Thanks for posting that link.  I finally was able to slow that down with VLC, and Bobby was indeed doing a good bit of Georgia in that video (not the on-beat Georgia ... the accent was on the off-beat (as you said)).  It wasn't ALL Georgia, though, probably because some longer melody notes came along here and there, that "forced him out" of the Georgia for a while ... there were definitely some repeated sawstrokes in there in places, and some other stuff I didn't get.  Given more time with that slowed-down video, I could get the complete bowing for Bobby's break, but I don't have the time now.  If and when I ever want to learn that break, though, that's how I'd do it.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/13/2014:  13:09:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by elviolinista

 

The "on-beat-Georgia" pattern:

1-3-1-3

is a case where the last three saw strokes of each half measure are replaced by 3-slurs.  And the (off-beat) Georgia is the same thing, except shifted two positions to the left (and that is an example of using a 3-slur across the bar lines (centered on the first beat of the measure)

 

---

Is this the pattern I hear in the A part of "Uncle Pen," or something else entirely?

---

Probably not.

1-3-1-3  tends to sound very "straight" and English since the accent is on the downbeat.  (Listen to my recording of Green Willis for an example- or did I call it "The Raw Recruit".)  Since it's so European sounding, I call it the "Unshuffle".  Or maybe "Euroshuffle" would be a better name!

James Scott Skinner mentioned it a book on Scottish fiddling as being used for strathspeys.

Bluegrass tends to accent the backbeat with the chop, and the Bluegrass fiddlers shift the single stroke over to the backbeat to align their bowing with the chop.

However, the motions are essentially the same.   1-3-1-3 is a great way to start practicing the motions.

The backbeat way of doing it tends to be a little hard to tab out in an eight note measure.

Two eight note measures would be:

1-1-1-3-1-3-1-3-1-1.

See how you add two sawstrokes at the beginning, but then what comes after that is the 1-3-1-3... plus one more.  The two sawstrokes nudge it over so that the single downstroke is on the backbeat instead of the downstroke.

The final "1" is an upstroke, and would be the beginning of another 3 note upbow slur if you wanted to continue the series of Georgia Shuffles.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/13/2014:  13:19:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 Bobby Hicks can show us exactly how it's played.

youtube.com/watch?v=-_TbkUo66IU

 

---

Thanks for posting that link.  I finally was able to slow that down with VLC, and Bobby was indeed doing a good bit of Georgia in that video (not the on-beat Georgia ... the accent was on the off-beat (as you said)).  It wasn't ALL Georgia, though, probably because some longer melody notes came along here and there, that "forced him out" of the Georgia for a while ... there were definitely some repeated sawstrokes in there in places, and some other stuff I didn't get.  Given more time with that slowed-down video, I could get the complete bowing for Bobby's break, but I don't have the time now.  If and when I ever want to learn that break, though, that's how I'd do it.

 

---

And he definitely is accenting the backbeat with a single strong downstroke, and the other notes are on the upbow.

And OTJ... no, it's not theoretical physics, it's APPLIED physics!!!!

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/13/2014:  13:29:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

 

 

Here's the best I can do, unless and until I figure out why I can't get alignment across multiple lines any more:

... 1_|_1_1 1 1__1_1 1 1_|_1_1 1 ...

with the unslurred notes (usually) being downbowed, and the slurred notes (usually) being upbowed.  The pattern tends to strongly accent the unslurred notes.

 

---

OK ... I finally got it to work ... "pilot error" on my part.

   >   |     >        >   |     >
   n v |     n v      n v |     n
   1 1_|_1_1 1 1__1_1 1 1_|_1_1 1 ...
       |                  |
       |                  |

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/13/2014:  13:32:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by petehay

 

Georgia Shuffle tunes-

I'm just starting to attempt something more than the simple Nashville shuffle. By simple I mean quarter note/eighth note/eighth note. So really just sawstroke - no slurs.

Now that I've opened my eyes to slurs I'd like to work on the Georgia shuffle.

Could anyone give me some simple (well-known) tunes that lend themselves to the Georgia pattern - like "Bile Them Cabbage Down" lends itself to learning the Nashville shuffle?

Pete in Portland

---

The easiest tune to apply Georgia Shuffle to would be I would say the first part of June Apple, at least the way I play it (Doc Watson version?) with a series of sixteenth notes.   It's stays on the first string most of the time, so you don't have to worry about slurred string changes, which are a more advanced technique than playing it on a single string.

In the "S" section of my music page on the Fiddle Hangout, I have some audio demos of different patterns.  I demo them on an exercise I made out of the high part of June Apple.  That demo would be an even easier way to apply it at first.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/13/2014:  13:33:08

That's one beautiful sounding Georgia Shuffle that dude's doin right there!

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/13/2014:  14:03:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by petehay

 

Could anyone give me some simple (well-known) tunes that lend themselves to the Georgia pattern - like "Bile Them Cabbage Down" lends itself to learning the Nashville shuffle?

---

Pogo is right that June Apple is always good (for ANY pattern), because it's almost all short notes (and also doesn't have a lot of string changes to complicate things).  If longer notes of a particular melody happen to be in the "wrong place", they won't fit a pattern that has short notes there.

I use quite a bit of both Georgia and on-beat Georgia, as well as sawshuffle and syncoshuffle, and also sawstrokes, and also some pairs of 2-slurs (especially off-set 2-slurs).  But I use all those patterns mostly in half-measure fragments, all mixed and matched.  I rarely use any one pattern for multiple complete measures (but that's mostly because my favorite style is "Texas-style", which usually discourages repetition ... multiple measures of a single pattern can work well in some oldtime styles, though).  And, I generalize sawshuffle a lot, by moving the upbowed 3-slur around at will ... any sequence of three sawstrokes can be replaced with a 3-slur, without getting the bowing "turned around".  So I tend to put 3-slurs all over the place, usually either just upstream or just downstream of an un-slurred note that I want to accent.  And sometimes I use 3-slurs in adjacent pairs, like smoothshuffle ... there's even a version of "Sally Goodin" I learned that uses FIVE 3-slurs and one sawstroke over two measures!

One of the tunes I play, that I use a lot of Georgia in, is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" ... I think when I was first hearing lots of versions of that tune, I was drawn to Hollis Taylor's version, and she uses a good bit of Georgia in it (along with a lot of other stuff), so that's what I've ended up with for my version (except for some changes to suit my own tastes, here and there).  But that tune gets played by a lot of fiddlers, with a lot of other patterns ... I think I remember Pogo saying that he likes a lot of syncoshuffle in it.

Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 03/13/2014 14:04:50

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/13/2014:  15:22:20

P.S.:

I should add that the Georgia doesn't fit every measure in "Whiskey" ... in fact, I don't use it on the first measure.  I think I just use Nashville for that first measure or two, although I can see now that syncoshuffle would probably fit it well.  I think the Georgia first shows up in the third measure, in my playing of it.  Also, I just looked at the transcription of "Whiskey" in the Fiddler's Fakebook ... if you have that book, you might be able to see how Georgia gets used in there.  The version of the melody in that transcription is fairly different from the melody that I play, but their use of the Georgia looks fairly similar to mine.

OTJunky - Posted - 03/13/2014:  16:11:17

AFAIK, "Uncle Pen" is the only fiddle tune that really requires the Georgia Shuffle to sound right.

I think it's common to hear Bluegrass fiddlers use the Georgia Shuffle on "Gold Rush" too but you can play that tune without using it.  I don't think Kenny Baker used that shuffle in his version of "Gold Rush"

As others have said, you can use the Georgia Shuffle on any tune where you think using it will improve your version of it - but, IMO, it's something that should be used sparingly.

In OT fiddling in the Appalachian regions syncopation is usually gotten by using a "Pulsed up bow" rather than by using the Georgia Shuffle.

So to my ear, the use of the Georgian Bow is pretty much restricted to areas where hornpipe fiddling is the dominant style, e.g. Georgia and Bluegrass fiddling though I don't think it's much used in Missouri and Midwest fiddling.

Just my two cents...

--OTJ

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/13/2014:  17:28:31

I have heard more G. shuffling that I didn't particularly like than that I was crazy about...I think it can sound jerky and contrived ( especially when I try it....lol!).  But used in the right places, and not too much, and by somebody who can get it natural-sounding...it's a really nice lick to throw in here and there, in my opinion.

EricBluegrassFiddle - Posted - 03/13/2014:  19:27:55

Great thread and now I am subscribed...but gosh 33 pages!? I guess this bowing business is the talk of the town around her

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/13/2014:  19:35:34

It's usually a hot topic here! 

Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 03/13/2014:  20:36:54

And remember the title, Bowing Patterns for Your Enjoyment!!!!!  These patterns are for our enjoyment, so enjoy them...now.   

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/13/2014:  21:49:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by erikforgod

 

Great thread and now I am subscribed...but gosh 33 pages!? I guess this bowing business is the talk of the town around her

---

Yeah, but if you were to magically erase the off-topic spoofing, it WOULD be somewhat shorter.

And if you magically erased the posts by naysayers and gripers, it would be a LOT shorter.

But since the Chief Spoofer is the one who bumps the thread, if it weren't for him, it would be in the archives by now!

And if it weren't for the naysayers and gripers, the bowing geeks wouldn't have thought about it nearly as much, and wouldn't have had NEARLY as much to say about it!

You have to remember, this thread is almost as old as the Fiddle Hangout is.... going on SEVEN years!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/13/2014:  22:00:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 

I think Uncle Pen uses this one

     2-1-3-2

--OTJ

---

I'm curious- do you remember where you learned that one?

I got to try it earlier, and it's tricky, but it has POSSIBILITIES!!!

The trickiness has to do with the fact that so far, my favorites patterns either contain 3 note slurs, or 2 note slurs, but not both.

I've tried at least one other one that had both a 3 note slur and a 2 note slur, but wasn't able to make it work  (3-2-1-2).

3-2-2-1 would probably work better, but I haven't really tried it yet.  I'll have to add yours to the rotation!

OTJunky - Posted - 03/14/2014:  03:10:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 

I think Uncle Pen uses this one

     2-1-3-2

--OTJ

---

I'm curious- do you remember where you learned that one?

I got to try it earlier, and it's tricky, but it has POSSIBILITIES!!!

The trickiness has to do with the fact that so far, my favorites patterns either contain 3 note slurs, or 2 note slurs, but not both.

---

Here's Dave Reiner's original description of the Georgia Shuffle from the first post on this thread

u - D u - - D u 

(or really u - D u - - D u - - D u - - D u - - ... to cross bar lines)

Georgia shuffle (Same as 1-3-1-3, but with accent shifted to the offbeat. Put a slight accent, or mid-bow pulse, in the middle of each group of 3 on the up-bow. Downbows are accented because they have to go faster, and they're also a good place to put a double stop.)

[Old French, Cotton Patch Rag, 2-bar endings of tunes such as Devil's Dream, parts of Cooley's Reel]

So that basically translates to 2 - 1 - 3 - 1 - 1 starting on a up bow within in a single bar.  So that's the basic rhythm that I've always known as the "Georgia Bow".  I learned it from hanging out and listening to Fiddlers in North Floriday (Tallahassee) and South Georgia in the late 70's. 

But I didn't really learn the way Dave notates it.  I learned to start it with a down bow and play 2 - 1 - 3 - 2 (or D - u D - - u -) in the case where you don't want to continue it across two measures.- which IMO is the case with "Uncle Pen".

--OTJ

EricBluegrassFiddle - Posted - 03/14/2014:  06:40:54

before I enjoy them, I have to learn them LOL

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/14/2014:  07:40:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 

I think Uncle Pen uses this one

     2-1-3-2

--OTJ

---

 

I've tried at least one other one that had both a 3 note slur and a 2 note slur, but wasn't able to make it work  (3-2-1-2).

3-2-2-1 would probably work better, but I haven't really tried it yet.  I'll have to add yours to the rotation!

---

The pattern posted by OTJ is significantly different from Georgia ... it's not as unbalanced, so it doesn't tend to accent as strongly as the Georgia.  (But OTJ's pattern DOES seem to match what I THINK I remember the melody of the fiddle break in Uncle Pen to be).

The degree of unbalance of a pattern is determined by comparing the total number of SNP's (think "number of short notes") for each of the two bowing directions in the 8-SNP measure.  A balanced pattern will have 4 SNP's for each direction, so a balanced pattern doesn't tend to accent one direction more than the other.  Pogo's first alternatives to OTJ's pattern is balanced, and his second alternative has the same degree of imbalance as OTJ's.  OTJ's pattern has 5 SNP's in one direction (the first direction in the measure ... upbow for most fiddlers), and 3 SNP's in the other direction.  One or more of the 3 SNP's will tend to get accented more than the 5 SNP's (because both directions have to have the same total amount of bow travel, if the pattern is to be able to be repeated over and over ... for multiple measures of any given pattern, the pattern needs to finish the measure in about the same bow position as it was in at the beginning of the measure).  The Georgia is more unbalanced (2  downbowed SNP's versus 6 upbowed SNP's) ... that's why it has the reputation of having VERY pronounced accents ... just looking at a video of someone doing the Georgia, you can easily see the very quick, lightening-like (usually downbowed) thrusts, alternating with the smooth upbowed 3-slurs.

Anyone know if the pattern OTJ has identified gets used in any other tune? 

OTJunky - Posted - 03/14/2014:  08:25:01

I'm not sure how you can say the pattern is posted is not representative of the Georgia Shuffle.

All the fiddlers I knew in the late 70's in South Georgia and North Florida thought it was the Georgia Shuffle.

It also jibes with Dave Reiner's description of the Georgia Shuffle except that Dave notated a version of it that's two measures long and crosses a bar line.  But there's no common understanding among fiddlers I know that the Georgia Bow has to fill two measures and slur across a bar line,  Also Dave starts his notation  of it using an up bow but I don't think that's a requirement - just an option.

Where are you getting all this "authoritative information" that lets you feel comfortable about stating categorically something is, or isn't, the Georgia Shuffle?

--pulm

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/14/2014:  09:28:59

The pattern you posted (which I LIKE, and which I think IS the pattern used in Uncle Pen, and which I'm glad you made me aware of) is qualitatively different from the Georgia because it is less unbalanced than the Georgia, and will tend to accent less heavily.  It has the same degree of imbalance as sawshuffle and syncoshuffle.  The Georgia (and also the on-beat Georgia) are the most unbalanced patterns that are likely to be commonly encountered (although even more imbalance IS possible (but rare), like a 1-7 pattern) ... that's why many people think they are "too much", especially when done continuously over many measures.

OTJunky - Posted - 03/14/2014:  09:44:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

 

The pattern you posted (which I LIKE, and which I think IS the pattern used in Uncle Pen, and which I'm glad you made me aware of) is qualitatively different from the Georgia because it is less unbalanced than the Georgia, and will tend to accent less heavily.  It has the same degree of imbalance as sawshuffle and syncoshuffle.  The Georgia (and also the on-beat Georgia) are the most unbalanced patterns that are likely to be commonly encountered (although even more imbalance IS possible (but rare), like a 1-7 pattern) ... that's why many people think they are "too much", especially when done continuously over many measures.

 

---

Just to cut to the chase.

The pattern I posted is, IMO, the Georgia Shuffle.

I've no idea how you came to believe all the stuff you say above.

That said, I don't mind if you believe it and I'm happy to leave it that we disagree.

--OTJ

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/14/2014:  09:50:18

If you repeat OTJ's pattern and tie the last snp to the first two you get the shuffle. It is exactly that just not shown beyond the one set of 8 snp. Snap peas. That's what I think of when I read snp :‹)

dsreiner - Posted - 03/14/2014:  10:09:05

Nice to see this thread active again, with a few grey-haired participants 

My two cents for today...

There are multiple ways to get into a Georgia shuffle, including a Middle Shuffle where the last upbow crosses into the next bar (d u d u - - d u | - - d u - - d u | etc.).  Fiddlers don't necessarily plan what's happening a measure or two in advance; the heuristic that works is just to continue one of the red upbows for three notes.  Try it on the 2nd or 7th measure of Devil's Dream as another example.

2-1-3-2 looks useful.  I wouldn't call it a Georgia shuffle variant; it's more in the camp of 3-3-2 divisions of a measure like Middle Shuffle 1-1-1-3-1-1 and Smooth Shuffle 3-3-1-1.  One could argue that 2-1-3-2 has similar accenting to GS if played like this: (D - U d D d U u) .  I've heard it played in Texas tunes like Dusty Miller. For that matter, I've heard GS played occasionally in Irish tunes like Morning Dew.

BTW, I play Uncle Pen with more straightforward Georgia shuffle myself. From what I recall of jamming with Kenny Baker and Bobby Hicks, they do, too.



Dave

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/14/2014:  11:40:30

Dave...thanks!  Very helpful.  I'm assuming Middle Shuffle is what Pogo calls saw shuffle?

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/14/2014:  11:44:44

Anybody gotta name for that 2132 thing?  I think maybe just ol' twenty-one, thirty-two...a new one I'll probably lose more sleep over...lol...but it's a lot more interesting than sleeping!

ChickenMan - Posted - 03/14/2014:  11:50:55

Geez 21311 seems more like what I meant about tying the two snap peas together

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/14/2014:  12:14:58

What I'd really like is to figure out a good tune for getting the feel for Georgia shuffle...like Boil em cabbages down for N. Sh....fits so perfectly.  If I could find an easy tune where Georgia Sh. fits like that to familiarize and get comfortable with it, that'd be helpful...but I can't think of any that would work out for practicing it...I only see tunes that have a quick spot here and there where you can slap it down for effect.  I think it's gonna take several hundred times going through before I ever get to where I can go slapping it around here and there...like synco shuffle, which drove me crazy for at least three years--- just now getting to where it's natural, comfortable and usable, about 1/8 th of the time...lol.  Smooth shuffle came to me quicker, but I think this Georgia Shuffle is gonna be hard to get to know--- but I figuring it'd be worth the trouble.  Now if I could just think of a good tune to stumble around with it for ???? Months or years...

Mojohand40 - Posted - 03/14/2014:  12:30:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

What I'd really like is to figure out a good tune for getting the feel for Georgia shuffle...like Boil em cabbages down for N. Sh....fits so perfectly.  If I could find an easy tune where Georgia Sh. fits like that to familiarize and get comfortable with it, that'd be helpful...but I can't think of any that would work out for practicing it...I only see tunes that have a quick spot here and there where you can slap it down for effect.  I think it's gonna take several hundred times going through before I ever get to where I can go slapping it around here and there...like synco shuffle, which drove me crazy for at least three years--- just now getting to where it's natural, comfortable and usable, about 1/8 th of the time...lol.  Smooth shuffle came to me quicker, but I think this Georgia Shuffle is gonna be hard to get to know--- but I figuring it'd be worth the trouble.  Now if I could just think of a good tune to stumble around with it for ???? Months or years...

---

Peggy..you are doing two things...1) thinking this is harder then it is and 2) making me participate in a bowing thread (yuck!)

See: melbay.com/Content/Site161/Bas...20933.pdf

This is a very good PDF that explains Georgia Shuffle in a lot of variations using Soldiers Joy as an example.  If you can read dots, then this is as easy as it gets.

OTJunky - Posted - 03/14/2014:  12:50:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

What I'd really like is to figure out a good tune for getting the feel for Georgia shuffle...like Boil em cabbages down for N. Sh....fits so perfectly.  If I could find an easy tune where Georgia Sh. fits like that to familiarize and get comfortable with it, that'd be helpful...but I can't think of any that would work out for practicing it...I only see tunes that have a quick spot here and there where you can slap it down for effect.  I think it's gonna take several hundred times going through before I ever get to where I can go slapping it around here and there...like synco shuffle, which drove me crazy for at least three years--- just now getting to where it's natural, comfortable and usable, about 1/8 th of the time...lol.  Smooth shuffle came to me quicker, but I think this Georgia Shuffle is gonna be hard to get to know--- but I figuring it'd be worth the trouble.  Now if I could just think of a good tune to stumble around with it for ???? Months or years...

---

My favorite OT tune to use the 2132 on is "Billy in the Low Ground".  Throwing in 2132 on that tune can make it swing.

As for what the rest of you are calling the "Georgia Shuffle", I've no idea what you'd use that for.

--paulm

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/14/2014:  13:20:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsreiner

[...]

One could argue that 2-1-3-2 has similar accenting to GS if played like this: (D - U d D d U u) . 

 

---

Just to elaborate a bit more:

When I say that a highly unbalanced pattern TENDS to accent heavily, what I mean is that, just to keep from "running out of bow" after multiple contiguous measures of that pattern are played, some notes WILL HAVE to be accented.  (To keep from "running out of bow", you need to leave the bow at the end of each measure close to where you found it at the beginning of the measure).  In contrast, a balanced pattern (even a very long sequence of measures of a balanced pattern) doesn't HAVE to be accented.   The accenting in an unbalanced pattern is almost automatic (although you DO have SOME choice in exactly which notes get accented).

An unbalanced pattern has fewer SNP's (think "short notes") in one bowing direction than in the other bowing direction ... call them "the small group" and the "large group" of SNP's.  One or more of the notes that are played with the bowing direction that has fewer SNP's will HAVE to be accented more than the notes that are played in the opposite direction (assuming that you are playing a long sequence of measures of that pattern).  (The only way to avoid that constraint is if the eight SNP's last for VERY unequal amounts of time ... i.e., if you "rob" some time from one SNP and give it to another SNP.  That DOES happen, to some extent, sometimes, but it is usually a secondary effect.)

You DO still have some freedom to choose which (and how many) of the notes in the "small group" to accent.  And you CAN choose to also accent one or more of the notes in the "large group" ... BUT, any accenting you do in the large group will require you to add still MORE accenting in the small group.

None of the above means that you CAN'T accent any notes in a balanced pattern ... you CAN.   BUT in a long sequence of measures of a balanced pattern, there will need to be an equal amount of accenting for both bow directions ... i.e., downbows can't be accented (on average) more than upbows, and vice-versa.  As an extreme example, with the sawstroke pattern (dudu dudu), suppose you choose to accent two (and only two) notes, and you choose to make them just as loud as the two sawed notes in the Georgia pattern.  BUT, in the sawstroke pattern, one of those two accented notes must be downbowed, and the other must be upbowed.  In the Georgia, both of the two accented notes will be downbowed (or both upbowed), and the accenting will happen essentially automatically.  Note that if you DO accent two notes very heavily in the sawstroke pattern, one of them (the downbowed one) will be one of the two beat notes, or one of the two off-beat notes.  The other accented note (the upbowed one) can't be a beat note or an off-beat note ... the accented upbowed note will have to be one of the four notes that I call "the pre-beats" or "the post-beats".  Accented notes are most often either beat notes or off-beat notes ... THAT'S why long sequences of sawstroke patterns are usually not very heavily accented.  (About the best that you can do, in that case, is to accent one note heavily, and then also accent ALL four of the opposite-direction notes with a less-strong accent, hoping that it will roughly sound like just one note being accented in the measure).

Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 03/14/2014 13:33:46

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/14/2014:  13:40:02

Thanks for linking the PDF, but it's not helpful to me...maybe it is to somebody else  making their way through all this stuff!

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/14/2014:  13:47:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

Dave...thanks!  Very helpful.  I'm assuming Middle Shuffle is what Pogo calls saw shuffle?

---

Yeah, that's what he meant.  He probably calls it "Middle Shuffle" because the upbowed 3-slur is right in the middle of the measure (centered on the second beat (the second foot-tap) of the measure).  (Pogo told us about the name "sawshuffle" after Dave's original posting where he described (and named) all those patterns).

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/14/2014:  14:00:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 

My favorite OT tune to use the 2132 on is "Billy in the Low Ground".  Throwing in 2132 on that tune can make it swing.

---

Is there a recording (or recordings) of that somewhere?  If so, I'd REALLY like to hear it. 

I've been spending quite a bit of time the last few months coming up with a version of "Billy" to "call my own", by analyzing four different versions of that tune, by four different fiddlers that I particularly like (Marty Elmore, Benny Thomasson, Byron Berline, and Ricky Simpkins).  I finished the "cut and paste" part (ended up being mostly based on Marty and Benny's versions), and then made a few changes here and there just to fit my own "taste".  I wanted something that I would enjoy playing, but I also was looking for a "learning device".  It's pretty solidly Texas-style, but with some off-set 2-slurs and syncoshuffle thrown in, as well.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 03/14/2014:  18:19:25

Would love to hear you play it, Mike!  BITLowground is a tough tune.  I can't think where the 2132 would go...I'm wondering if it'd be in the high part that's synco-sounding just on its own...

dsreiner - Posted - 03/14/2014:  22:32:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

What I'd really like is to figure out a good tune for getting the feel for Georgia shuffle...like Boil em cabbages down for N. Sh....fits so perfectly.  If I could find an easy tune where Georgia Sh. fits like that to familiarize and get comfortable with it, that'd be helpful...but I can't think of any that would work out for practicing it...I only see tunes that have a quick spot here and there where you can slap it down for effect.  I think it's gonna take several hundred times going through before I ever get to where I can go slapping it around here and there...like synco shuffle, which drove me crazy for at least three years--- just now getting to where it's natural, comfortable and usable, about 1/8 th of the time...lol.  Smooth shuffle came to me quicker, but I think this Georgia Shuffle is gonna be hard to get to know--- but I figuring it'd be worth the trouble.  Now if I could just think of a good tune to stumble around with it for ???? Months or years...

---

Sally Gooden will do fine for Georgia Shuffle, pretty much all the way through.  You can hear me demonstrating this on my FHO music page.

Dave

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/15/2014:  00:56:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 

I'm not sure how you can say the pattern is posted is not representative of the Georgia Shuffle.

All the fiddlers I knew in the late 70's in South Georgia and North Florida thought it was the Georgia Shuffle.

It also jibes with Dave Reiner's description of the Georgia Shuffle except that Dave notated a version of it that's two measures long and crosses a bar line.  But there's no common understanding among fiddlers I know that the Georgia Bow has to fill two measures and slur across a bar line,  Also Dave starts his notation  of it using an up bow but I don't think that's a requirement - just an option.

Where are you getting all this "authoritative information" that lets you feel comfortable about stating categorically something is, or isn't, the Georgia Shuffle?

 

---

That includes exactly the kind of info I was asking about where you learned 2-1-3-2.

Mike kind of obsesses about the amount of bow travel a pattern tends to cause, since it could result in running out of bow.  But he's not alone in thinking that your Georgia Shuffle is pretty different from what has been commonly called Georgia Shuffle.

You see, one of the problems with shuffles is that you get variant versions.   It's quite possible that (since you learned it in South Georgia) that that IS the original traditional "Georgia Shuffle" as played in Georgia.   But somewhere along the line, Bluegrass fiddlers started doing this chains of 3 note slurs divided by a single stroke on the back beat.   And it got called Georgia Shuffle somehow... and it gets used A LOT in Bluegrass fiddling because it accents the same note the mandolin chops behind.  And it's not like Bluegrass and Old Time exist in hermetically sealed compartments.  Old Time fiddling certainly influenced Bluegrass fiddling.   And I think Bluegrass fiddling seems to be more terminology friendly, and more teaching oriented.... maybe because they are big on kids learning to play Bluegrass music.

This variation in names as to what is a Georgia Shuffle is part of why I prefer to name patterns after their TEXTURE... just like "sawstroke" does in a way.

Syncoshuffle Syncopates.

Smoothshuffle is smooth.... whether in Old Time or Irish fiddling, and in Irish fiddling that's it's function- used with slurred string crossings, it smooths out bow rocking arpeggios and makes them sound less Scottish and more Irish somehow.

While I understand Dave's reason for calling 1-1-1-3-1-1. Middle Shuffle... that slur in the middle, I think Sawshuffle is a better term BECAUSE:

A.  It has a lot of "sawstrokes" in it- 5 out of 8 notes, so it's the dominant flavor.

B.  The first half is mostly sawstroke, while the last half is almost the same flavor as Nashville Shuffle.  So it's kind of a hybrid of the two- so a hybrid of the names is a natural- Saw from sawstroke, and Shuffle from Nashville Shuffle.    (Wait- maybe it should be the Sawville Shuffle!!!)

I really don't think it's gonna be possible to name ALL the patterns and have them STICK.   I just think that Syncoshuffle, Smoothshuffle and Sawshuffle are common enough that they deserve names too.  And since recent events on the Fiddle Hangout have shown that geographical names don't have ANYTHING in them that inherently links them to any particular pattern, my hope is that descriptive names have a better chance.

By the way.... as someone who has studied several different languages, this kind of changing terminology is exactly what I expect.  Languages don't hold still- they change.  Ultimately the usage that is used the most wins out.... it's a very democratic process that way.  And if 10,000 Bluegrass fiddlers call one pattern Georgia Shuffle, and a hundred fiddlers in South Georgia call something else Georgia Shuffle, guess who's gonna win?  It doesn't really matter who was first, or who is right- the question is, what is the normal definition?

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 03/15/2014 01:07:39

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/15/2014:  10:24:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

 

What I'd really like is to figure out a good tune for getting the feel for Georgia shuffle...like Boil em cabbages down for N. Sh....fits so perfectly.  If I could find an easy tune where Georgia Sh. fits like that to familiarize and get comfortable with it, that'd be helpful...but I can't think of any that would work out for practicing it...I only see tunes that have a quick spot here and there where you can slap it down for effect.  I think it's gonna take several hundred times going through before I ever get to where I can go slapping it around here and there...like synco shuffle, which drove me crazy for at least three years--- just now getting to where it's natural, comfortable and usable, about 1/8 th of the time...lol.  Smooth shuffle came to me quicker, but I think this Georgia Shuffle is gonna be hard to get to know--- but I figuring it'd be worth the trouble.  Now if I could just think of a good tune to stumble around with it for ???? Months or years...

---

My favorite OT tune to use the 2132 on is "Billy in the Low Ground".  Throwing in 2132 on that tune can make it swing.

As for what the rest of you are calling the "Georgia Shuffle", I've no idea what you'd use that for.

--paulm

---

You use it for Bluegrass, LOTS of Bluegrass.  When I saw Lonesome River Band a while back, Mike Hartgrove used it for whole breaks... and he'd also do sawstroke breaks, and Nashville Shuffle breaks.

You can also use it for Old Time.   For some reason it always worked better for me in the first part of Bill Cheatham than anything else.

If your using it in Old Time, you'd want to use it sparingly if you want it to sound Old Time.  Too much of it, and you start to sound Bluegrassy!

(Nothing wrong with that, just "When in Rome...").

I'm glad you shared your take on "Georgia Bow" because I had been baffled by something.   Young California Old Timey fiddlers were using the Bluegrassy Georgia a LOT in the 1970's.... I think because the Skillet Lickers were so popular with them.   But when I listen to Skillet Lickers recordings, I don't hear the Bluegrassy Georgia Shuffle.  I haven't gone through them with a fine tooth comb or anything, just that the Bluegrassy Georgia is rather distinctive, and I don' t hear that distinctive sound.

You know, a possibility occurred to me.   You remember the game "Telephone"?  My fifth grade teacher taught it to us, I think to show us how gossip garbles stuff.  Well, if nothing gets written down, in a living tradition, some garbling sure could take place with fiddle bowing!   Reading someone else's bowing is tricky.... I came up with Smoothshuffle by imitating Tommy Jarrell's bowing motions... and as far as I know now, he never USED 3-3-1-1!!! But Melvin Wine and Henry Reed apparently did.

Anyway, I can see how as "Georgia Bow" got passed on from fiddler to fiddler, the actual bowing associated with the name might have taken some twists and turns.... all good ones, but just not the same "Georgia Shuffle" or Georgia Bow.  This would also account for fujers take on Georgia Shuffle.

You might just have shown us what WENT IN the bowing version of the Telephone Game at the beginning.  But if so,  the Bluegrass fiddling world has taken and run with what came out the other end, and it's a little late to change that!

dsreiner - Posted - 03/16/2014:  13:45:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

While I understand Dave's reason for calling 1-1-1-3-1-1. Middle Shuffle... that slur in the middle, I think Sawshuffle is a better term BECAUSE:

A.  It has a lot of "sawstrokes" in it- 5 out of 8 notes, so it's the dominant flavor.

B.  The first half is mostly sawstroke, while the last half is almost the same flavor as Nashville Shuffle.  So it's kind of a hybrid of the two- so a hybrid of the names is a natural- Saw from sawstroke, and Shuffle from Nashville Shuffle.    (Wait- maybe it should be the Sawville Shuffle!!!)

I really don't think it's gonna be possible to name ALL the patterns and have them STICK.   I just think that Syncoshuffle, Smoothshuffle and Sawshuffle are common enough that they deserve names too.  And since recent events on the Fiddle Hangout have shown that geographical names don't have ANYTHING in them that inherently links them to any particular pattern, my hope is that descriptive names have a better chance.

---

Nomenclature is always tough and there's no easy answer.

Your point A is true of the Middle Shuffle, but it's also true of the Front Shuffle  3-1-1-1-1-1 and the End Shuffle 1-1-1-1-1-1-3 (slurring into the next bar).  

However, the terms "Front," "Middle," and "End" give an idea of where the group of 3 is placed, unlike "Sawshuffle."

There's also the "Smooth Shuffle" (your term, which I like), that can be explained easily as Front + Middle.

On your point B, the term "Shuffle" doesn't carry much information, and it doesn't necessarily imply "Nashville Shuffle" (although the term "single shuffle" is sometimes applied to Nashville shuffle).

Finally, I'm inclined to use the name Tommy's Shuffle (rather than Syncoshuffle) to pay homage to Tommy Jarrell, since it's such a big part of his style.  It also gets away from naming many shuffles with an "S" name. Of course, there's also Benton's Shuffle (from the beginning of  Benton's Dream).

This all represents a little preview of the upcoming book and DVD 

Dave

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/16/2014:  14:25:28

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quote

:

---

Originally posted by dsreiner

[...]

Of course, there's also Benton's Shuffle (from the beginning of  Benton's Dream).

[...]

---

I'm not familiar with "Benton's Dream" (I'll try to look it up), but your comment above caught my attention, because Brad Leftwich teaches what he calls "Benton's Lick" in the second volume of his two teaching videos.  It intrigued me at the time I was studying Brad's videos, because of ALL the patterns he taught, it was the only one that starts on an upbow.  He makes the comment that it is the same bowing motion as the "lead-the-beat" version of "Tommy's Lick", shifted four "positions" (SNP's) to the left.  Here's what that looks like, in the two cases:

"Tommy's Lick" (aka "syncoshuffle"), with lead-the-beat 3-slur:

        |                  |
        | >                | >
    n   |   v   n  v   n   |
... 1_1_|_1 1_1 1  1_1 1_1_|_1 ...
        |                  |

"Benton's Lick":

        |                  |
        |     >            |
        | v   n      v   n |
        | 1_1 1_1__1 1_1 1 |
        |                  |

Is Brad's "Benton's Lick" the pattern used in "Benton's Dream"?

Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 03/16/2014 14:30:35

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/16/2014:  15:10:48

I just realized that both of those patterns are balanced, and so they can't be repeatedly played with only a single accent per measure (as I showed it in my previous posting).  In order to be repeated indefinitely, a balanced pattern needs to have the same average amount of accenting for each bow direction (unless you do some serious stealing of time from one SNP to another).

(It's interesting that, when Tommy's lick is played with a "lead-the-beat 3-slur", it gets changed from an unbalanced pattern to a balanced pattern).

I don't remember how Brad accented those two examples, but my best guess would be like this:

"Tommy's Lick" (aka "syncoshuffle"), with lead-the-beat 3-slur:

        |                  |
        | >        >       | >
    n   |   v   n  v   n   |
... 1_1_|_1 1_1 1  1_1 1_1_|_1 ...
        |                  |

"Benton's Lick":

        |                  |
        | >   >            |
        | v   n      v   n |
        | 1_1 1_1__1 1_1 1 |
        |                  |