Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/233/8
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/28/2013: 22:51:40
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Personal preferences.... what you're saying is, is that it's a matter of taste.
Yeah, that enters into it. But when we are talking about Old Time, we are talking about a TRADITIONAL form of music, correct. It's not just my personal preference... it's "What was the traditional preference?" or "How did the oldtimers do it?"
"we are talking about a TRADITIONAL form of music, correct " Are you really wanting to expand the scope of this discussion? I've already said that bowing is a part of Old Time fiddling, but I'm not going to blindly accept your interpretation of what is and is not traditional. I doubt you will find anyone willing to say that they play traditional fiddle just exactly like Tommy or __________. So, what is traditional?
pogo - I have come to grips with the fact that I will never be your favorite fiddler. I know that now. 
For me - this is fiddling: When I hear a tune / song that I like, that is the tune or song I attempt to learn. For me - it doesn't really matter how old it is or if it is the earliest, or who is playing it. So, yes - for me - it is about personal preferences. If I like it, that is what I will try to learn. And even then - I'm not foolish enough to think I can play anything exactly like someone else anyway - but I'll let that be what I aim for. But I've got a dollar that says that even they don't do it exactly the same way either.
My attitude about traditions? I like the attitudes expressed in this video. (warning: it 40 minutes long, but worth watching) These are some of my heroes when it comes to honoring "tradition".
folkstreams.net/film,153
Funny thing- when it comes to the TUNES THEMSELVES... my approach isn't that much different from yours. I play the tunes I like. And I might even change them a little bit, but try to keep their essential character intact. I feel there IS that latitude in the tradition. And who knows.... if I heard YOU play a tune, and I liked it... I might even learn that version. Hey... I use to listen to field recording tapes for HOURS... your fiddling is actually quite a bit better than some of that as far as tone and intonation.
I made a decision a long time ago that since I JAM with fiddlers who are my contemporaries, it made sense to get the tune melodies from my contemporaries, for the most part. But since most of my contemporaries had pretty lackluster bowing (very true in the 1970's, somewhat true now, though less so), I determined I was going to get that from oldtimers if at all possible, or, failing that, from fiddlers who had been paying serious attention to oldtimers.
There are a couple of Tommy Jarrell tunes I just can't get excited about learning- John Brown's Dream (I prefer the similar Little Rabbit) and Backtep Cindy (I prefer the similar "Rock the Cradle Joe"), even though I enjoyed hearing Tommy play those tunes.
The bowing, though is different for me. To me, shuffley bowings are the flavoring that attracted me to Old Time fiddling in the first place. It's also what sets Old Time apart from other fiddle genres I like, like say, Irish Trad.
(To me it's like the use of chilis in Mexican cooking, the use of oregano in Italian cooking, the use of ginger in Chinese cooking... yeah, there might be occasional dishes without that flavoring, but to try remove those flavorings from every dish would be just wrong.)
So I put a high importance on it.
However, I probably need to remind people that I don't feel the need to copy Tommy Jarrell's bowing out and play the whole tune like he does. NO!!! But I DO want to learn bowing licks that he used, but use them where I want to use them... if I happen to want to use them in the same places, fine, but that's more or less accidental.
Currently, my bowing of the month or perhaps season is in fact, Tommy Jarrell's leading-the-beat lick. Only the funny thing is that I'm using them on Virginia and even Ozark tunes! Even though the tunes aren't Tommy Jarrell tunes, I'm sure one could hear the Tommy Jarrell influence if they were familiar with his playing. I'm getting more and more comfortable with it, and may make a recording one of these days.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/28/2013: 23:21:56
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Personal preferences.... what you're saying is, is that it's a matter of taste.
Yeah, that enters into it. But when we are talking about Old Time, we are talking about a TRADITIONAL form of music, correct. It's not just my personal preference... it's "What was the traditional preference?" or "How did the oldtimers do it?"
"we are talking about a TRADITIONAL form of music, correct " Are you really wanting to expand the scope of this discussion? I've already said that bowing is a part of Old Time fiddling, but I'm not going to blindly accept your interpretation of what is and is not traditional. I doubt you will find anyone willing to say that they play traditional fiddle just exactly like Tommy or __________. So, what is traditional?
Way back when I started playing in the early 70's, it was obvious to me that through the wonders of 33 1/2 RPM records and cassette tapes, fiddle TUNES spread around pretty well, and accurately enough so that people could still jam on the tunes together in spite of a certain amount of (actually sometimes attractive) variation.
But it was also obvious to me that the same media that were transmitting the tunes so well were NOT transmitting the bowings very well. Younger fiddlers who were my contemporaries tended to have rather cliched Nashville bowing, or kind of a bland hodgepodge that didn't resemble the oldtimers bowing very well... ESPECIALLY in California, where about all we had was audio recordings, and thousands of miles to festivals.
So I decided that I needed to get as much visual input as possible. I had seen (and heard) a couple of oldtimers in L.A. thanks to Tom Sauber. I went back east to fiddlers conventions two summers in a row, and not only did I make tapes, I also watched fiddlers bowing arms "like a hawk" if they were oldtimers, or had a phrasing that reminded me of oldtimers.
(I was happy to see that even the younger fiddlers back east in the 1970's were doing better with the bowing- probably more access to visual input!)
That approach paid off in learning several patterns I still use today.
Anyway, now the oldtimers I remember are all gone. Now there are videos available of some, and others have broken down their bowings. I see these as a valuable resource, and I'm rather astonished to find that not everyone feels that way. When I was seeing Tommy Jarrell at Galax, I was thinking "I sure hope SOMEONE is filming this guy and preserving his bowing for posterity!" And I was also hoping that someone would be able to transcribe his bowing.
Fortunately, both happened.... a GOOD THING, IMO.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/28/2013: 23:41:53
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
This the way I see it, and that seems to be more "traditional" than some of the more modern methods like isolated patterns and such.
It's nice to be able to use traditional methods of learning, but in many cases, that's no longer possible.
And a digital reproduction of a movie transmitted by the internet isn't exactly a traditional means of transmission, is it?
Also, the term "lick" is just an old fashioned term for "isolated pattern". Whether in blues or Old Time, a "lick" is an element in another persons playing that is attractive, gets repeated often enough to be easy to figure out, and is therefore stealable!
When I learned clawhammer, I learned from tablature (Art Rosenbaum and John Burke) at the beginning. Of course a personal lesson from Tommy Jarrell would have been nice, but at the time I didn't know that was even possible.
Anyway, I don't see our talk of patterns being any different than banjo tab. If you really want to learn it, you gotta do what you gotta do. If someone can show you, fine... if you can buy a book with a DVD, fine. If all you can afford and access is fiddlepogo's and/or mike fontenot's analytical explanations, well, I feel SORRY for YOU.... but you gotta do what you gotta do! Groundhogpeggy did what she had to do, and now she explains patterns better than me... with FAR FEWER words!
Yay!!!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/29/2013: 03:44:10
I was playing some guitar stuff ( in the Bluegrass Band...so as a fingerpicker I'm way too weird in that setting) and some mando guy wanted to be told how that works, after listening...the thought of breaking that apart made me feel completely...in PAIN!!!! I remember working on the basics, and over the decades watching the basics evolve from the rudiments...but...I sure don't wanna try to talk about it!!!! On the fidde, I'm still stuck working at the very beginnings of the basics...easier fr me to talk about now. I look forward to the time when I can't talk about my bowing anymore,..lol! But I gotta spend enough time wrangling with the basic stuff first.
IdleHands - Posted - 01/29/2013: 07:15:13
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
This the way I see it, and that seems to be more "traditional" than some of the more modern methods like isolated patterns and such.
It's nice to be able to use traditional methods of learning, but in many cases, that's no longer possible.
And a digital reproduction of a movie transmitted by the internet isn't exactly a traditional means of transmission, is it?
Also, the term "lick" is just an old fashioned term for "isolated pattern". Whether in blues or Old Time, a "lick" is an element in another persons playing that is attractive, gets repeated often enough to be easy to figure out, and is therefore stealable!
When I learned clawhammer, I learned from tablature (Art Rosenbaum and John Burke) at the beginning. Of course a personal lesson from Tommy Jarrell would have been nice, but at the time I didn't know that was even possible.
Anyway, I don't see our talk of patterns being any different than banjo tab. If you really want to learn it, you gotta do what you gotta do. If someone can show you, fine... if you can buy a book with a DVD, fine. If all you can afford and access is fiddlepogo's and/or mike fontenot's analytical explanations, well, I feel SORRY for YOU.... but you gotta do what you gotta do! Groundhogpeggy did what she had to do, and now she explains patterns better than me... with FAR FEWER words!
Yay!!!
Bowing patterns are not really comparable to banjo picking patterns. You have said yourself sometimes you cant tell in a recording what direction a stroke is. but there is no mistaking what banjo string is being plucked. Not the same. When metaphor abuse is all you have left, you should stop.
IdleHands - Posted - 01/29/2013: 07:20:45
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
I still dont think you're answered this question pogo.
Is "playing backwards" something that should be practiced or something that should be avoided through limiting oneself to directionally biased patterns? In your opinion?
It depends on the style and what you want to play. Not all styles have the same groove, nyah, lilt, lift, bounce, swing, whatever.
If you like Scottish, Irish, stuff like that... bow backwards... works great. Doesn't fight the rhythmic thing you find in Irish trad or Scottish Trad. Wind instruments don't HAVE bows, and so they don't get these little phrasing quirks that you can get with a bow. So the fiddles in Irish Trad tend to need to repress that kind of phrasing to fit in with the wind instruments. With Scottish fiddle, they don't play WITH the bagpipe, but the phrasing is very influence by it anyway.
But what is good for Irish Trad isn't good for Old Time. One time, someone from the U.K. asked me of my opinion on the progress they were making on Old Time tunes, and I had to say that while it was technically very competent, it was too even, didn't have enough bounce.
When I play Old Time fiddle, I just find it WAY easier to get that bounce with downbow accent downbowing- down-up-down-up sawstroke, and patterns that fit nicely into that kind of sawstroke.
And I think if someone wants to focus exclusively on Old Time, they should use the approach used by the fiddlers they want to sound like. If they're an upbower, go upbowing. If they're a pattern downbower (like Melvin Wine or Tommy Jarrell) do that. If they actually are anywhichway, with no directional bias... go for it.
But in actual fact, among the Old Timers, upbowing and anywhichway was atypical. So if you want the TYPICAL Old Time sound, I'd say down-up sawstroking and/or downbow patterns are the way(s) to go. But if you really have to buck the trend, or have a particular upbower whose fiddling who think is the cat's pajamas, well, DO THAT if you want to emulate that sound.
Interesting about groundhogpeggy growing up in a county and family that was dominated by upbowers, and she bucks the trend and goes for downbowing!
I dont accept your analysis of all old time bowing. And anywhichway can be used to achieve whatever stylized appalachian fiddling you're trying to emulate.
tonyelder - Posted - 01/29/2013: 09:14:36
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
This the way I see it, and that seems to be more "traditional" than some of the more modern methods like isolated patterns and such.
It's nice to be able to use traditional methods of learning, but in many cases, that's no longer possible.
And a digital reproduction of a movie transmitted by the internet isn't exactly a traditional means of transmission, is it?
To me, it just isn't that important how we come to the knowledge. And that was my point. imo - there is really no need to strain over the methods we use to learn this stuff. I was only resisting any insistance that learning isolated patterns was somehow "traditional" - and for that reason we can only learn this stuff that way. It is certainly one way, and I understand that for some it is the best way - but I won't agree with the idea that it as the only way or the best way for everyone.
Also, the term "lick" is just an old fashioned term for "isolated pattern". Whether in blues or Old Time, a "lick" is an element in another persons playing that is attractive, gets repeated often enough to be easy to figure out, and is therefore stealable!
I don't disagree with this at all. But don't miss the context or specifics of that occasion. Yes, the phrase was isolated, but I didn't here Tommy say go home and just work on this lick, call it the "super duper TJ backward shuffle" and use it in every tune from now on. I didn't even hear Alice say, I need to go home and work on this lick, etc. It was a phrase from out of John Brown's Dream that Alice wanted help with. That's it. Learning licks within the context of the tune. That is more the tradition - if tradition is important.
When I learned clawhammer, I learned from tablature (Art Rosenbaum and John Burke) at the beginning. Of course a personal lesson from Tommy Jarrell would have been nice, but at the time I didn't know that was even possible.
Anyway, I don't see our talk of patterns being any different than banjo tab. If you really want to learn it, you gotta do what you gotta do. If someone can show you, fine... if you can buy a book with a DVD, fine. If all you can afford and access is fiddlepogo's and/or mike fontenot's analytical explanations, well, I feel SORRY for YOU.... but you gotta do what you gotta do! Groundhogpeggy did what she had to do, and now she explains patterns better than me... with FAR FEWER words!
Yay!!!
I think I know what you are trying to say, but the banjo tab idea doesn't really work that well, especially for clawhammer. I can come closer to understanding it with 2 and 3 finger uppicking style (roll patterns).
There is only one thing I "gotta do" - and I could chose to do it your way, but it is certainly not required to reach my goals.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/29/2013: 10:02:30
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
I don't disagree with this at all. But don't miss the context or specifics of that occasion. Yes, the phrase was isolated, but I didn't here Tommy say go home and just work on this lick, call it the "super duper TJ backward shuffle" and use it in every tune from now on. I didn't even hear Alice say, I need to go home and work on this lick, etc. It was a phrase from out of John Brown's Dream that Alice wanted help with. That's it. Learning licks within the context of the tune. That is more the tradition - if tradition is important.
Well, I saw Tommy do this big sweeping bow lick at the beginning of most of his tunes when I saw him at Galax in the summer of '76- is that context enough?
And that's why I did the bowing podcast (see my tunes section)- to give an example of the context certain patterns can be used in.
Brad Leftwich makes a point about there being "opening licks" and "ending licks" or something like those in addition to the main licks.
I wasn't aware of this when I first got into patterns, but when I remembered Tommy starting phrases with a big sweeping downward motion, it made total sense. And Earl Collins also had a distinctive slurred opening pattern.
"At the beginning of a tune" is a context, wouldn't you say?
However, I'm not rigid about that in my own playing.
Sometimes I use an opening lick at the opening, but sometimes in the middle too. If it fits the phrase, it fits the phrase!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/29/2013 10:04:39
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/29/2013: 10:20:01
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
This the way I see it, and that seems to be more "traditional" than some of the more modern methods like isolated patterns and such.
It's nice to be able to use traditional methods of learning, but in many cases, that's no longer possible.
And a digital reproduction of a movie transmitted by the internet isn't exactly a traditional means of transmission, is it?
Also, the term "lick" is just an old fashioned term for "isolated pattern". Whether in blues or Old Time, a "lick" is an element in another persons playing that is attractive, gets repeated often enough to be easy to figure out, and is therefore stealable!
When I learned clawhammer, I learned from tablature (Art Rosenbaum and John Burke) at the beginning. Of course a personal lesson from Tommy Jarrell would have been nice, but at the time I didn't know that was even possible.
Anyway, I don't see our talk of patterns being any different than banjo tab. If you really want to learn it, you gotta do what you gotta do. If someone can show you, fine... if you can buy a book with a DVD, fine. If all you can afford and access is fiddlepogo's and/or mike fontenot's analytical explanations, well, I feel SORRY for YOU.... but you gotta do what you gotta do! Groundhogpeggy did what she had to do, and now she explains patterns better than me... with FAR FEWER words!
Yay!!!
Correction:
"Anyway I don't see our talk of patterns being any different than banjo tab IN TERMS OF BEING A TRADITIONAL METHOD."
tonyelder - Posted - 01/29/2013: 13:32:30
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
I don't disagree with this at all. But don't miss the context or specifics of that occasion.
Well, I saw Tommy do this big sweeping bow lick at the beginning of most of his tunes when I saw him at Galax in the summer of '76- is that context enough?
Yeap. But the context I was referring to was in the scene in the video, in what I assume was Mr Jarrell's living room with Alice and what happened there.
Sometimes I use an opening lick at the opening, but sometimes in the middle too. If it fits the phrase, it fits the phrase!
That's pretty much the way I do it too.
Edited by - tonyelder on 01/29/2013 13:34:00
tonyelder - Posted - 01/29/2013: 13:38:01
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
This the way I see it, and that seems to be more "traditional" than some of the more modern methods like isolated patterns and such.
It's nice to be able to use traditional methods of learning, but in many cases, that's no longer possible.
And a digital reproduction of a movie transmitted by the internet isn't exactly a traditional means of transmission, is it?
Also, the term "lick" is just an old fashioned term for "isolated pattern". Whether in blues or Old Time, a "lick" is an element in another persons playing that is attractive, gets repeated often enough to be easy to figure out, and is therefore stealable!
When I learned clawhammer, I learned from tablature (Art Rosenbaum and John Burke) at the beginning. Of course a personal lesson from Tommy Jarrell would have been nice, but at the time I didn't know that was even possible.
Anyway, I don't see our talk of patterns being any different than banjo tab. If you really want to learn it, you gotta do what you gotta do. If someone can show you, fine... if you can buy a book with a DVD, fine. If all you can afford and access is fiddlepogo's and/or mike fontenot's analytical explanations, well, I feel SORRY for YOU.... but you gotta do what you gotta do! Groundhogpeggy did what she had to do, and now she explains patterns better than me... with FAR FEWER words!
Yay!!!
Correction:
"Anyway I don't see our talk of patterns being any different than banjo tab IN TERMS OF BEING A TRADITIONAL METHOD."
The I would I agree. Would you agree that tabs are a tool, but they aren't necessary? There is good reason to believe that a banjo player can (does) learn tunes by ear, without needing tab. And can learn to play those tunes pretty darn good.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/29/2013: 15:00:02
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
This the way I see it, and that seems to be more "traditional" than some of the more modern methods like isolated patterns and such.
It's nice to be able to use traditional methods of learning, but in many cases, that's no longer possible.
And a digital reproduction of a movie transmitted by the internet isn't exactly a traditional means of transmission, is it?
Also, the term "lick" is just an old fashioned term for "isolated pattern". Whether in blues or Old Time, a "lick" is an element in another persons playing that is attractive, gets repeated often enough to be easy to figure out, and is therefore stealable!
When I learned clawhammer, I learned from tablature (Art Rosenbaum and John Burke) at the beginning. Of course a personal lesson from Tommy Jarrell would have been nice, but at the time I didn't know that was even possible.
Anyway, I don't see our talk of patterns being any different than banjo tab. If you really want to learn it, you gotta do what you gotta do. If someone can show you, fine... if you can buy a book with a DVD, fine. If all you can afford and access is fiddlepogo's and/or mike fontenot's analytical explanations, well, I feel SORRY for YOU.... but you gotta do what you gotta do! Groundhogpeggy did what she had to do, and now she explains patterns better than me... with FAR FEWER words!
Yay!!!
Correction:
"Anyway I don't see our talk of patterns being any different than banjo tab IN TERMS OF BEING A TRADITIONAL METHOD."
The I would I agree. Would you agree that tabs are a tool, but they aren't necessary? There is good reason to believe that a banjo player can (does) learn tunes by ear, without needing tab. And can learn to play those tunes pretty darn good.
Just in case you are heading there, I'll beat you to it:
Not only are banjo tabs not absolutely necessary, neither is tabbing out bowings, nor reading conventional music notation. But that's assuming the learner is capable of learning by ear, and has someone competent nearby that they can learn from live, who will show them stuff, whether for free or in a lesson.
BUT there are so many situations and places where would be Old Time musicians are isolated from active Old Time communities. I am myself in that situation. Various forms of tab or notation can at least partially substitute for that.
Tabs and notation DO have one advantage that has a flip side disadvantage: the transmission is TOO PRECISE in terms of notes, which leads to carbon copy versions. And a disadvantage: it's very difficult to include adequate information about phrasing and ornaments without making the tab or notation too complex.
Live is always better IF the teachers or sources are competent, video comes in a close second if done clearly, and tabs and notation are in third place.
Nevertheless, banjo tab had it's place when learning banjo, music notation had it's place when learning fiddle (and occasionally still does for Irish tunes) and I've learned or confirmed bowing information through bowing tabs in bowing threads. So I'm glad to have them all as supplemental ways of learning.
And I don't like it when people get dismissive of them, 'cause for some people it's all or most of what they've got.
And especially if the tab or notation is a resource for tunes, bowings or other techniques that are hard to get anywhere else.
One way tab is useful is as a way of adding detail to otherwise bare bones versions learned in jams.
I guessing, but I think I probably only worked hard on one or two dozen tabbed banjo versions, and only ended up retaining about four to the present day in my banjo repertoire. But those versions gave me ideas on how to flesh out similar tunes I learned in jams and at festivals. Bowing materials from Brad Leftwich, David Bragger, or Dave Reiner (or whoever) could be used in a similar way for Old Time fiddle. You don't NEED to obsessively learn every single thing in them... you can use them as a reference tool, or as a kind of smorgasbord- focus on the fiddlers and the techniques that appeal to you.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/29/2013 15:02:24
tonyelder - Posted - 01/29/2013: 15:54:09
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I guessing, but I think I probably only worked hard on one or two dozen tabbed banjo versions, and only ended up retaining about four to the present day in my banjo repertoire. But those versions gave me ideas on how to flesh out similar tunes I learned in jams and at festivals. Bowing materials from Brad Leftwich, David Bragger, or Dave Reiner (or whoever) could be used in a similar way for Old Time fiddle. You don't NEED to obsessively learn every single thing in them... you can use them as a reference tool, or as a kind of smorgasbord- focus on the fiddlers and the techniques that appeal to you.
Yes! As I've said before, I do have several videos that I have learned stuff from and a good number of those deal with bowing patterns. In fact, I'm looking forward to Dave letting us know when his new material is available (or did I miss it?) But I'm not obsessive about it. I still believe it is reasonable to assume a person can learn all they need to know - in any number of different ways. All of these things are learning tools - but none of them are required.
I have never been opposed to learning patterns - I've always said they exist. You have done a good job describing the process I use and it pretty much agrees with everything I've been saying.
Good word.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/30/2013: 13:46:46
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I guessing, but I think I probably only worked hard on one or two dozen tabbed banjo versions, and only ended up retaining about four to the present day in my banjo repertoire. But those versions gave me ideas on how to flesh out similar tunes I learned in jams and at festivals. Bowing materials from Brad Leftwich, David Bragger, or Dave Reiner (or whoever) could be used in a similar way for Old Time fiddle. You don't NEED to obsessively learn every single thing in them... you can use them as a reference tool, or as a kind of smorgasbord- focus on the fiddlers and the techniques that appeal to you.
Yes! As I've said before, I do have several videos that I have learned stuff from and a good number of those deal with bowing patterns. In fact, I'm looking forward to Dave letting us know when his new material is available (or did I miss it?) But I'm not obsessive about it. I still believe it is reasonable to assume a person can learn all they need to know - in any number of different ways. All of these things are learning tools - but none of them are required.
I have never been opposed to learning patterns - I've always said they exist. You have done a good job describing the process I use and it pretty much agrees with everything I've been saying.
Good word.
Good- I'm glad we agree more than we thought we did!!!
One clue that my practical thinking wasn't that different from yours might have been my "backburner" pattern learning concept that I especially shared with groundhogpeggy. I don't usually try to integrate a new pattern into my repertoire immediately. I play it in isolation as an additional exercise to my normal practice, and I just play with the pattern, have fun with it and try to get it up to speed. Then, I try to play the first part of June Apple using it. As it starts sounding good, that will become my default bowing for that part of June Apple. Eventually it will spread to similar parts of other tunes. Now, I have done this so many times with different patterns that by now my tunes are tiled end to end with different patterns, and they could be analyzed in hindsight, but that's NOT how I got there! And in actual fact, you don't NEED dozens of patterns to sound good. A lot of good fiddling can be done with two patterns- the second pattern keeps the rhythm from getting claustrophobically repetitive.
One of the advantages of this approach is that I can continue playing confidently with my older bowings, and the new bowing won't see the light of day until it's truly "ready for prime time".
However, the knowledge about these bowing patterns has to come from somewhere. Just like O'Neill did a great service to Irish Traditional music by notating all those tunes, people like Brad Leftwich and the others I mentioned have, I believe, done a great service to Old Time by preserving bowing lore. So I like to give them credit where credit is due.
But we don't all need doctorates in Bow-ology to play the fiddle!
OTJunky - Posted - 01/31/2013: 19:11:50
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
...
But we don't all need doctorates in Bow-ology to play the fiddle!
That's probably right. I think very few Romans who spoke Latin had doctorates in it...
--paulm
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 01/31/2013: 19:35:07
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
...
But we don't all need doctorates in Bow-ology to play the fiddle!
That's probably right. I think very few Romans who spoke Latin had doctorates in it...
--paulm
Speaking of Romans, Paul, Plutarch says that "for whom and for what reason, the city of Rome, a name so great in glory, so famous in the mouths of all men, was so first called, authors do not agree. Similarly, bowing patterns, so important in OTRF, so glorious and empowering to those who comprehend them, so unnerving and intimidating to those who can not, authors again provide us with no certainty!"
IdleHands - Posted - 02/01/2013: 09:34:56
But pogo, you still havent answered my question:
Would you advise that "backward bowing" be practiced, or avoided through a restricted subset of bowings that all start and end on a predetermined direction?
This question appears to flummox. What concept is contained within its implications is such kryptonite to your ubermensch will?
tonyelder - Posted - 02/01/2013: 10:09:32
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Good- I'm glad we agree more than we thought we did!!!
One clue that my practical thinking wasn't that different from yours might have been my "backburner" pattern learning concept that I especially shared with groundhogpeggy. I don't usually try to integrate a new pattern into my repertoire immediately. I play it in isolation as an additional exercise to my normal practice, and I just play with the pattern, have fun with it and try to get it up to speed.
It's not a big deal -but I think this is where we differ. I know I will pick up a pattern (lick) vocabulary as I imitate (as best I can) what I hear from the sources I am learning from. I don't think of them as patterns, but that is what they are. Obviously, every tune is unique and yet they will still have a great deal in common with a number of other tunes. There will always be patterns to learn, new ones and variations of the ones I've learned.
How I interpret what I hear and how well I can execute what I hear is another issue.
edit to add:
For folks who want hear you describe the the bowing patterns you use and how you use them - you are providing a great service and valuable tool. I know they are grateful.
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/01/2013 10:20:26
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/01/2013: 16:26:44
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
But pogo, you still havent answered my question:
Would you advise that "backward bowing" be practiced, or avoided through a restricted subset of bowings that all start and end on a predetermined direction?
This question appears to flummox. What concept is contained within its implications is such kryptonite to your ubermensch will?
It depends on your style and the fiddler(s) you want to sound like (in part, at least).
You WANT me to be a narrow-minded dogmatic downbowing opponent- that would make for more interesting (and inflammatory) debate from your point of view.
When I play song tunes, or attempt Irish Trad, I PRACTICE playing backwards all the time. It's not something I even have to try to do.
When I play Old Time, I'm trying to sound like a blend of Earl Collins and Tommy Jarrell- that's quite a combination, since Earl was a very melodic Missouri-style (though born in Oklahoma, he imitated his dad from Missouri) fiddler, and Tommy was a hoedown fiddler from North Carolina. But it works because they were both downbowers. And I got to SEE them both in person, and when I play, I'm as much trying to get my bowing arm to LOOK LIKE Earl's arm on the notey parts of tunes, and look like Tommy on the droney, shuffley parts of tunes. And they both put accents on downbows, and started phrases with downbows. And when I play like that, bowing backwards just never seems to work, because the sawstroked parts just feel wrong, and sound wrong. Coincidentally, although I never saw him in my formative fiddling years, trying to imitate both Earl Collins and Tommy Jarrell had me end up with a bowing style very much like Melvin Wine, and I can SEE that from his YouTube videos he is also a pattern downbower, and I like his fiddling very much.
Ashley MacIsaac is anywhichway. He bows both directions... and if you want to sound like him, you should too.
J.P. Fraley was a Kentucky fiddler... I went to his festival, saw him in person, had one of his albums, and like some of his tunes... but his bowing didn't appeal to me. I suspect he was either an upbower OR an anywhichwaybower... I could never decipher his bowing, because it looked and sounded like he was deliberately trying to avoid strong accents. Anyway, if I wanted to sound like J.P. Fraley, I think I'd start with AVOIDING pattern downbowing, because it seems to lead in the exact opposite direction.
Every fiddler you can see and hear, you can see the bowing techniques they are using. And you know what kind of sound they get from those techniques... it's a pretty good bet, kind of a sure thing that if you use those techniques, you can get the same sound(s).
1. Decide who you want to sound like
2. Figure out what bowing techniques they are using
3. Learn those techniques.
4. Try to sound like them.
That seems reasonable to me, and avoids unnecessary debate- it's pragmatic, not dogmatic or theoretical.
Go with what you know WORKS. It gives you a "leg up".... and fiddling is hard enough, that we need all the help we can get!!!!
For instance, there still remains the possibility that I may learn Orange Blossom Special. Arthur Smith's version on YouTube is the version that appeals most to me... good chance I'll try to do it like that, and, IIRC, he downbows the double shuffle part... of course then, I've never seen ANYBODY try to do the double shuffle backwards.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/01/2013: 17:42:43
Um...isn't J.P. Fraley from a county or two down from Lews, a.k.a., up bowing territory?
Swing - Posted - 02/01/2013: 17:53:04
Pogo, finally to me you have made sense... just kidding.. I get very tired of the pattern bowing discussions
"1. Decide who you want to sound like
2. Figure out what bowing techniques they are using
3. Learn those techniques.
4. Try to sound like them."
This really is what fiddling is about...
I have my favorite fiddlers which I am sure that many have not heard of and I take lots of time to listen to and learn tunes from their playing. The thing that I find disturbing in the pattern playing discussions is that it is so dogmatic...
Ashley MacIsaac does not bow any which way any more than any other Cape Breton fiddler or Canadian fiddler... the regional styles US/Canada included, vary greatly and if in saying that only the players of note are the correct versions well that certainly puts a damper on the rest of the players who are very good that have not been recorded or recognised.
While you and several of others have expressed what you feel is the optimum way of playing, well, you need to get out more and hear what the rest of the world is playing. I am not saying patterns playing is bad or insignificant, it is just that it is not the end all of fiddling.
Lastly, OT fiddling is different in different parts of the world... and if you want to hear something very different then I would start with listening to the Verret family playing in Quebec. This is music handed down through generations and yet distinctive enough to be studied and treasured or perhaps listen to more field music that is available.
I will get off my rant and go play some western tunes that may bridge different genres of playing, hopefully without offending anyone.
Play Happy
OTJunky - Posted - 02/01/2013: 19:29:31
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
...of course then, I've never seen ANYBODY try to do the double shuffle backwards.
I bet Idle can do it. That's what CBM is all about.
--OTJ
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/01/2013: 20:30:48
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
...of course then, I've never seen ANYBODY try to do the double shuffle backwards.
I bet Idle can do it. That's what CBM is all about.
--OTJ
I'll be looking forward to his YouTube video of him doing it forwards and backwards, at a typical bluegrass clip, and with a marked bow, just so's I can see which direction it's REALLY going!
But I won't be holding my breath till then, either!!!
Kidding aside, Bluegrass fiddling is all about the performance, and part of the performance on a fiddle tune or other instrumental is to wow the crowd with your "chops". And part of wowing the crowd is the Double Shuffle. If double shuffling can indeed be done equally well both ways, I'd expect bluegrass fiddlers to be doing it. If they don't HAVE Complete Bowing Mastery, they want to LOOK like they do, because having a "train wreck" in the middle of a fast double shuffle section would not be crowd-wowing, just embarassing.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/01/2013: 21:22:07
quote:
Originally posted by Swing
Pogo, finally to me you have made sense... just kidding.. I get very tired of the pattern bowing discussions
"1. Decide who you want to sound like
2. Figure out what bowing techniques they are using
3. Learn those techniques.
4. Try to sound like them."
This really is what fiddling is about...
I have my favorite fiddlers which I am sure that many have not heard of and I take lots of time to listen to and learn tunes from their playing. The thing that I find disturbing in the pattern playing discussions is that it is so dogmatic...
Ashley MacIsaac does not bow any which way any more than any other Cape Breton fiddler or Canadian fiddler... the regional styles US/Canada included, vary greatly and if in saying that only the players of note are the correct versions well that certainly puts a damper on the rest of the players who are very good that have not been recorded or recognised.
While you and several of others have expressed what you feel is the optimum way of playing, well, you need to get out more and hear what the rest of the world is playing. I am not saying patterns playing is bad or insignificant, it is just that it is not the end all of fiddling.
Lastly, OT fiddling is different in different parts of the world... and if you want to hear something very different then I would start with listening to the Verret family playing in Quebec. This is music handed down through generations and yet distinctive enough to be studied and treasured or perhaps listen to more field music that is available.
I will get off my rant and go play some western tunes that may bridge different genres of playing, hopefully without offending anyone.
Play Happy
Well, Swing, I'm glad you finally found SOMETHING I wrote you could agree with!
Fact: I do have a bowing system based on pattern downbowing, and at least on many tunes, I unconsciously "tile" the patterns.
And I know it works, and allows playing fast, and both Old Time aficionados and Bluegrass players seem to like the sound.
And I see something very much like that in the videos of Melvin Wine- his bowing in the YouTube videos is quite easy to read.
And when people talk about "pattern bowing" like it's a BAD THING, I feel obligated to testify to my experience to the contrary.
But all I'm really saying is:
1. It works for me.
2. It worked for Melvin Wine (whether he did it consciously or unconsciously)
3. Brad Leftwich has seen something very similar going on among all the Old Time Appalachian players he visited.
But saying THAT much is like waving a red flag in front of quite a few Old Timeys!!!
Now, all that ONLY covers Old Time... and I've seen videos of old timers that were upbowers, and videos possibly of old timers that were "anywhichway". They may be oldtimers of a later generation than I was hearing in the 1970's, or maybe a different regional style.
In any case, all my talk of pattern downbowing really only applies to Old Time, as far as I know, and there seem to be a fair number of exceptions.
At some point I realized though that the process of debating and defending my downbowing positions was making me sound WAY more narrow minded and dogmatic about it than I really was... and I've tried to correct that impression.
I have mentioned a number of times that sometimes I use "anywhichway" (basically an eclectic mix of upbowing and downbowing and when I bow that way I de-emphasize patterns.)
I am WELL aware that there is a whole 'nother world of fiddling out there.
A friend gave me a ticket to see Natalie McMaster in concert... and what with YouTube, I may start looking with one kind of fiddling in mind, but if I see something attractive in the suggested videos to the right, I may follow them.... and like any web-surfing, you never know quite where you'll end up. And I have heard many different kinds of fiddling and violin playing that way.
I even have attempted to dabble in some of them. And when I attempt to get that sound, by and large I try to leave pattern downbowing "at the door".
Anyway, in the bowing discussions, the pattern bowing seems to apply in my observation to much Old Time, and to Bluegrass fiddling.
According to Mike Fontenot, it applies to Texas fiddling, which is his love.
Aside from that, I couldn't say if it applies anywhere else.
I do know that Gary Moore, a member here, is a Weiser-style contest fiddler, and IS NOT a downbower...
I don't know if he's an exception or the rule as far as Weiser-style contest fiddling. But he certainly does well there, and doesn't get any demerits for not being a downbower!
Anyway- pattern downbowing only has relevancy to a few genres that I know of, there are exceptions in those genres, and outside of those genres... well, I'm sure they are using whatever works in those genres.
However, many of the bowing discussions here START among the Old Timey bunch here at the Fiddle Hangout, which in the past was rather strong, but probably isn't nearly as dominant as it once was. Bowing discussions can get messy when people from other genres start chiming in on what was basically a controversy among Old Timeys. It's a controversy among us because from what I've seen (and Brad Leftwich says from his research), pattern downbowing was once the common or "normal" Old Time approach... but for whatever reason, there's been a shift among younger (not real young anymore- boomers and younger!) fiddlers away from it.
It would be like Irish fiddlers arguing about rolls and cuts, and then having fiddlers from other genres chime in about how they feel about such things. It's easy to get into comparing apples and oranges.
BTW, I often bring up Ashley MacIsaac when responding to Idlehands mainly because IdleHands cited him as an example of his definition of sawstroke (which I call anywhichway, as in "anywhichway the melody goes"). And I watched the video, and could SEE clearly (not all videos give you a good enough shot of the bowing hand or even the tip of the bow so you can see clearly what is going on.) that he was bowing "anywhichway". If you wanted to start another thread and post some other GOOD examples (the shots need to be far enough away to show the whole bow, but not TOO FAR either- and high frame rates!) in other genres, I think it would be interesting.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 02/01/2013 21:24:22
tonyelder - Posted - 02/01/2013: 22:27:44
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
And when people talk about "pattern bowing" like it's a BAD THING, I feel obligated to testify to my experience to the contrary.
I really haven't seen that happen very much. I have read a lot of objections to an insistence that some how "pattern bowing" is necessary, traditional, should be learned as a separate discipline, and that all OT tunes should be made to fit the patterns in order to sound right.
I think everyone understands that all of this is your opinion based on your experience. And I don't think anyone has said that you (pogo) are doing a bad thing by doing it that way. I think everyone would agree that for you - you must do it that way (self imposed).
I think the strongest objections I have read is when we hear you say or imply that this is more than just your opinion, we really must do it this way too - or we aren't really playing traditional OT fiddle and we will never sound as good as a pattern bower.
The "BAD THING" you are reading is just folks saying - no, it isn't nearly as important or as necessary as you are making it out to be. And we offer the reasons why we feel that way. And when we offer our reasons, you feel the need to defend yourself. It seems that you must prove our logic is flawed because your experience tells you that what you are saying is right. It might be a"true experience" for you - but none of this is a matter of "right" or "wrong" when our experiences are different.
Then again, maybe I'm just not reading things the same way you are.
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
At some point I realized though that the process of debating and defending my downbowing positions was making me sound WAY more narrow minded and dogmatic about it than I really was... and I've tried to correct that impression.
....a wise decision.
imo - this is where the flack has been coming from.
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/01/2013 22:44:05
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 02/02/2013: 00:17:53
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
Bowing patterns are not really comparable to banjo picking patterns. You have said yourself sometimes you cant tell in a recording what direction a stroke is. but there is no mistaking what banjo string is being plucked. Not the same. When metaphor abuse is all you have left, you should stop.
Bowing patterns are very comparable to banjo picking patterns, imo. Just about any tune on either instrument gives you the opportunity to rely more on a given pattern, or less. And with both instruments if you stay too long on any pattern, you run the risk of wearing out your welcome.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/02/2013: 00:24:07
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Good- I'm glad we agree more than we thought we did!!!
One clue that my practical thinking wasn't that different from yours might have been my "backburner" pattern learning concept that I especially shared with groundhogpeggy. I don't usually try to integrate a new pattern into my repertoire immediately. I play it in isolation as an additional exercise to my normal practice, and I just play with the pattern, have fun with it and try to get it up to speed.
It's not a big deal -but I think this is where we differ. I know I will pick up a pattern (lick) vocabulary as I imitate (as best I can) what I hear from the sources I am learning from. I don't think of them as patterns, but that is what they are. Obviously, every tune is unique and yet they will still have a great deal in common with a number of other tunes. There will always be patterns to learn, new ones and variations of the ones I've learned.
How I interpret what I hear and how well I can execute what I hear is another issue.
edit to add:
For folks who want hear you describe the the bowing patterns you use and how you use them - you are providing a great service and valuable tool. I know they are grateful.
It depends on how much of the original flavor you want to capture.
It's sort of like gold mining... there are methods that get MOST of the gold out, but there's still too much gold in what's left to toss out, so they take it through yet another process, and maybe, IIRC, a third process.
Listening will get you some.
Listening and looking at a performance video (if available) might get you more.
Listening and watching a performer who spent some time with old timers getting their bowing down might get you more.
Listening and a lesson (DVD or live) with someone who spent a lot of time with the old timers will get you even more.
If someone is truly obsessed with fiddling they will probably do as much as they can wrap their brain around.
If someone wants a fun hobby that doesn't remind them too much of WORK or STUDY (one or both of which many or most of us get our fill of at some point) I can see how some of those might not be very appealing.
For instance, part of me says "You really ought to learn the Double Shuffle so you can do more Bluegrass fiddle classics".
But I never get around to it. Why? Bluegrass is an interest for me, but not a passion- at least not yet. A fun hobby.
Sort of like- how well can I as an essentially Old Time fiddler fit in at a Bluegrass jam without getting too serious about it!
So I'm really dabbling- but fortunately the local bluegrass folks like Old Time enough that it doesn't seem to bother them too much!
And even as far as Old Time, my real passionate obsession was in my younger daze. I'm really coasting on what I learned back then.
With all the material that's available now, if I were anywhere near as obsessed now as I was then, I'd:
1. Have bought and gone through all of Brad Leftwich's bowing and Roundpeak material.
2. Have gone through at least every YouTube David Bragger video, if not gotten lessons with him via Skype.
3. Would be listening to the thousands of fiddle tunes now available for hours every day.
(Hey, you think I'm extreme NOW... it could have been WORSE!!!)
When I talk about how I learned, I'm drawing on what I learned in my obsessive phase.... but I'm not there now. But it might be of use to someone who is currently obsessed! And we DO get those kind in here now and again! And I understand where they are coming from.
One of the things I remember from my obsessive fiddling phase- if someone is truly obsessed with something, they can royally ANNOY someone who just sees it as a relaxing pastime!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/02/2013: 01:00:34
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
And when people talk about "pattern bowing" like it's a BAD THING, I feel obligated to testify to my experience to the contrary.
I really haven't seen that happen very much.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ah, but it's not YOU they're gunning for! So I don't think you're paying the same level of attention to it as I am. Once you've been the target of something, you can pick it out even hints of it a LOT easier. I can think of two people in particular who do it quite a bit, even injecting it into threads that AREN'T ABOUT BOWING!!!
And of course, they DO show up in bowing threads....
And I've heard similar statements elsewhere, not just here at the FH. To some people "patterny" is NOT a compliment.
AND FWIW, I exchanged a couple of e-mails with Brad Leftwich on the topic... he won't participate in on-line bowing discussion anymore. It's not just me, and it's not just here. It's a controversial topic. The very idea of patterns offends some people... just like the very idea of restricting yourself to a directional orientation (for stylistic or whatever reasons) seems like the height of folly and an invitation to debate to another person whom I'm SURE you've noticed.
Anyway, this tendency for the process of debate to push people away from the middle and towards more extreme positions doesn't just happen in bowing discussions... it also happens in something that is very VERBOTEN to talk about here- no, actually it happens in TWO things that it's VERBOTEN to talk about here, so maybe that's why we don't talk about them. But that's all I'm gonna say about that!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/02/2013: 01:53:02
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
At some point I realized though that the process of debating and defending my downbowing positions was making me sound WAY more narrow minded and dogmatic about it than I really was... and I've tried to correct that impression.
....a wise decision.
imo - this is where the flack has been coming from.
SOME, perhaps... maybe from you and OTJ in particular.
For some others, the very idea of pattern bowing and/or downbowing is so offensive, that even if I were the nicest pattern bowing and/or downbowing advocate you'd ever want to meet, it would STILL make me a target for flak.
Oh yeah... I mentioned Brad Leftwich.
I got to see three or four oldtimers, and noticed some commonalities in their playing. I've seen a few more on video that I see the same things in their playing. Somehow, based on that small amount of input... I came to some hunches that are basically the same as the conclusions Brad Leftwich came to ... who has gotten to see a LOT more old timer fiddlers, and spent a lot more time with the ones he spent time with. And I think most of my few and most of his many old timer fiddlers were of the same generation- the generation born around 1900, give or take a few. Downbowing and pattern bowing seems to have been pervasive among them.
If you take that generation to be the be-all and end-all of Old Time fiddling (and it's tempting- there were some great ones) it would be easy to be narrow minded. However, I do try to keep in mind that it's all changing anyhow... that generation doesn't sound the same as the ones who recorded for the Library of Congress who were often born just after the Civil War. And a generation or two before that, there was a shift from very Scottish sounding tunes to sometime more like Old Time. And every generation of fiddlers since then sounds different from each other.
Since I've always had a taste for old-fashioned sounding music, I tend to look to the past more. Once I gave a tape of some songs I had written to a musician friend. She said "Why does everything you write have to sound like it's a hundred years old???" I kind of took it as a compliment!!
But, change happens... (sigh)
I'm resigned to it.
Why, pretty soon, if I kept entertaining in convalescent hospitals, I'll be entertaining for MY generation.
The handwriting is on the wall... I've been working on some 60's material... but hey, that's old fashioned now too!!!
And with a few exceptions, I bow it ANYWHICHWAY!!!
IdleHands - Posted - 02/02/2013: 06:08:54
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
Bowing patterns are not really comparable to banjo picking patterns. You have said yourself sometimes you cant tell in a recording what direction a stroke is. but there is no mistaking what banjo string is being plucked. Not the same. When metaphor abuse is all you have left, you should stop.
Bowing patterns are very comparable to banjo picking patterns, imo. Just about any tune on either instrument gives you the opportunity to rely more on a given pattern, or less. And with both instruments if you stay too long on any pattern, you run the risk of wearing out your welcome.
They are not comparable to banjo picking patterns. I will have to reaassert my objection to the misappropriated metaphor. The picking patterns are how to get the very notes you need. We cant even be sure of the bowing direction on recordings. They are too dissimilar.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/02/2013: 06:16:53
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
But pogo, you still havent answered my question:
Would you advise that "backward bowing" be practiced, or avoided through a restricted subset of bowings that all start and end on a predetermined direction?
This question appears to flummox. What concept is contained within its implications is such kryptonite to your ubermensch will?
It depends on your style and the fiddler(s) you want to sound like (in part, at least).
You WANT me to be a narrow-minded dogmatic downbowing opponent- that would make for more interesting (and inflammatory) debate from your point of view.
When I play song tunes, or attempt Irish Trad, I PRACTICE playing backwards all the time. It's not something I even have to try to do.
When I play Old Time, I'm trying to sound like a blend of Earl Collins and Tommy Jarrell- that's quite a combination, since Earl was a very melodic Missouri-style (though born in Oklahoma, he imitated his dad from Missouri) fiddler, and Tommy was a hoedown fiddler from North Carolina. But it works because they were both downbowers. And I got to SEE them both in person, and when I play, I'm as much trying to get my bowing arm to LOOK LIKE Earl's arm on the notey parts of tunes, and look like Tommy on the droney, shuffley parts of tunes. And they both put accents on downbows, and started phrases with downbows. And when I play like that, bowing backwards just never seems to work, because the sawstroked parts just feel wrong, and sound wrong. Coincidentally, although I never saw him in my formative fiddling years, trying to imitate both Earl Collins and Tommy Jarrell had me end up with a bowing style very much like Melvin Wine, and I can SEE that from his YouTube videos he is also a pattern downbower, and I like his fiddling very much.
Ashley MacIsaac is anywhichway. He bows both directions... and if you want to sound like him, you should too.
J.P. Fraley was a Kentucky fiddler... I went to his festival, saw him in person, had one of his albums, and like some of his tunes... but his bowing didn't appeal to me. I suspect he was either an upbower OR an anywhichwaybower... I could never decipher his bowing, because it looked and sounded like he was deliberately trying to avoid strong accents. Anyway, if I wanted to sound like J.P. Fraley, I think I'd start with AVOIDING pattern downbowing, because it seems to lead in the exact opposite direction.
Every fiddler you can see and hear, you can see the bowing techniques they are using. And you know what kind of sound they get from those techniques... it's a pretty good bet, kind of a sure thing that if you use those techniques, you can get the same sound(s).
1. Decide who you want to sound like
2. Figure out what bowing techniques they are using
3. Learn those techniques.
4. Try to sound like them.
That seems reasonable to me, and avoids unnecessary debate- it's pragmatic, not dogmatic or theoretical.
Go with what you know WORKS. It gives you a "leg up".... and fiddling is hard enough, that we need all the help we can get!!!!
For instance, there still remains the possibility that I may learn Orange Blossom Special. Arthur Smith's version on YouTube is the version that appeals most to me... good chance I'll try to do it like that, and, IIRC, he downbows the double shuffle part... of course then, I've never seen ANYBODY try to do the double shuffle backwards.
It more than just about an interesting debate. I think even in old time tunes, playing backwards has value, and convincing people to go to avoidance schemes to avoid one direction does a long term disservice to their bowing ability.
I DO NOT believe directional pattern playing is necessary to get the last bit of gold out of the old time mine.
And i really wish you would stop implying that Im just raising these objections for the thrill of battle, or just to have a debate. Thats really not true. I think your advice is harmful. I really do. And just as you reserve for yourself the right to speak your mind, you must preserve that right for others as well, without villianization and snark.
Edited by - IdleHands on 02/02/2013 06:19:30
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/02/2013: 06:32:52
Idlehands, you do enjoy a battle...lol...you gotta admit!
IdleHands - Posted - 02/02/2013: 06:40:06
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Idlehands, you do enjoy a battle...lol...you gotta admit!
Maximus: Fratres!
[cavalry addresses Maximus]
Maximus: Three weeks from now, I will be harvesting my crops. Imagine where you will be, and it will be so. Hold the line! Stay with me! If you find yourself alone, riding in the green fields with the sun on your face, do not be troubled. For you are in Elysium, and you're already dead!
[cavalry laughs]
Maximus: Brothers, what we do in life echoes in eternity.
tonyelder - Posted - 02/02/2013: 07:46:49
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Good- I'm glad we agree more than we thought we did!!!
One clue that my practical thinking wasn't that different from yours might have been my "backburner" pattern learning concept that I especially shared with groundhogpeggy. I don't usually try to integrate a new pattern into my repertoire immediately. I play it in isolation as an additional exercise to my normal practice, and I just play with the pattern, have fun with it and try to get it up to speed.
It's not a big deal -but I think this is where we differ. I know I will pick up a pattern (lick) vocabulary as I imitate (as best I can) what I hear from the sources I am learning from. I don't think of them as patterns, but that is what they are. Obviously, every tune is unique and yet they will still have a great deal in common with a number of other tunes. There will always be patterns to learn, new ones and variations of the ones I've learned.
How I interpret what I hear and how well I can execute what I hear is another issue.
edit to add:
For folks who want hear you describe the the bowing patterns you use and how you use them - you are providing a great service and valuable tool. I know they are grateful.
It depends on how much of the original flavor you want to capture.
It's sort of like gold mining... there are methods that get MOST of the gold out, but there's still too much gold in what's left to toss out, so they take it through yet another process, and maybe, IIRC, a third process.
Listening will get you some.
Listening and looking at a performance video (if available) might get you more.
Listening and watching a performer who spent some time with old timers getting their bowing down might get you more.
Listening and a lesson (DVD or live) with someone who spent a lot of time with the old timers will get you even more.
If someone is truly obsessed with fiddling they will probably do as much as they can wrap their brain around.
If someone wants a fun hobby that doesn't remind them too much of WORK or STUDY (one or both of which many or most of us get our fill of at some point) I can see how some of those might not be very appealing.
For instance, part of me says "You really ought to learn the Double Shuffle so you can do more Bluegrass fiddle classics".
But I never get around to it. Why? Bluegrass is an interest for me, but not a passion- at least not yet. A fun hobby.
Sort of like- how well can I as an essentially Old Time fiddler fit in at a Bluegrass jam without getting too serious about it!
So I'm really dabbling- but fortunately the local bluegrass folks like Old Time enough that it doesn't seem to bother them too much!
And even as far as Old Time, my real passionate obsession was in my younger daze. I'm really coasting on what I learned back then.
With all the material that's available now, if I were anywhere near as obsessed now as I was then, I'd:
1. Have bought and gone through all of Brad Leftwich's bowing and Roundpeak material.
2. Have gone through at least every YouTube David Bragger video, if not gotten lessons with him via Skype.
3. Would be listening to the thousands of fiddle tunes now available for hours every day.
(Hey, you think I'm extreme NOW... it could have been WORSE!!!)
When I talk about how I learned, I'm drawing on what I learned in my obsessive phase.... but I'm not there now. But it might be of use to someone who is currently obsessed! And we DO get those kind in here now and again! And I understand where they are coming from.
One of the things I remember from my obsessive fiddling phase- if someone is truly obsessed with something, they can royally ANNOY someone who just sees it as a relaxing pastime!
You see, this is what I meant when I said:
I think the strongest objections I have read is when we hear you say or imply that this is more than just your opinion, we really must do it this way too - or we aren't really playing traditional OT fiddle and we will never sound as good as a pattern bower.
I hear the same thing here. "we must..." or else "we aren't...." and "we will never..."
I am reminded of a few earlier posts (page 3) / and exchange between you and others:
fiddleandbanjo: Does anyone know the best way to bow the first bar of Hell Amongst the Yearlings? I've been trying to get this song up to speed for a while but can't seem to stumble upon a bowing that feels right.
dsriener: For Hell Among the Yearlings in D, the first bar is usually a 3 note phrase repeated…. I find a very effective bowing for this situation (which arises a lot in rags, too) is to group the notes like this…
fiddlepogo: Dave, I agree, it is a very raggy sounding phrase... but I'm surprised that you're using sawshuffle for that! To each his own, I guess... I use the one I call syncoshuffle that groups them…
oldtimer: I bow Hell Amongst the Yearlings a little differently. I don't know where I got it, but I have played it this way for a long time. I also don't know how to analyze it. You can hear it here:
OTJunky: I can't resist saying that I like to bow these three note synchopated patterns with just two notes per bow. So, now we have four different fiddlers and four different bowing preferences - go figure...
Probably if we have a half dozen fiddlers opine, we'll have a half dozen more different bowings..
fiddlepogo: Yeah, you're probably right.... and the funny thing is, for me, it feels like the melody is me to use "syncoshuffle" almost more than any other passage... and the rest of you probably feel the same about your respective patterns.
Very interesting. Now, why are there 4 different patterns being recommended if all these gold miners are using patterns? Or are you willing to say that you're the only real gold miner here? Are you the only one getting all that there is with your methods? ...the others are just hobbyist? ...not really serious like you are?
If oldtimer says he can’t analyze what he does, does that mean he’s doing it wrong? …maybe he's not using a pattern, if he can't describe it?
And I wonder how many would say they are using patterns they learned as a separate discipline / apart from any tunes? And how many would say they learned the patterns as they learned the tunes? And how many think its smarter to make Hell Amongst The Yearlings fit a pattern they already know? And how many would say that it is smarter to determine the pattern to play as they learn the tune, that they are able to recognize the patterns from a similar tunes they had learned in the past?
BUT - Don't read this as a "pattern bowing is a BAD THING". Read this as me saying - no, I don't think it is nearly as important or as necessary as you are making it out to be. I am offering the reasons why I feel that way. You don't need to feel like you have to defend yourself.
It borders on offensive to hear you try to prove our logic is flawed because your experience tells you that what you are saying is right. So, we must be wrong. It might be a"true experience" for you - but none of this is a matter of "right" or "wrong" when our experiences are different. You have no way to tell who is (has been) as serious as you are (have been) and what they are doing or how well it works for them.
Edited by - tonyelder on 02/02/2013 08:05:52
tonyelder - Posted - 02/02/2013: 09:17:12
I recently went to a Old Time Music Camp. They offered 2 levels of instruction for fiddle, mandolin, banjo, and 1 level for guitar. All of the instructors were well qualified. A few were professionals with serious backgrounds - well known. I won't mention names - because I would hate for folks to form opinions about them based on what I'm going to say. IOW - I don't want them to be put on the spot by folks calling them to task, wanting them to explain their comments.
Both fiddle instructors taught tunes by breaking them down into phrases and included bowing directions. I struggled with that a bit. Not because the tunes were hard, I picked the tunes up easy enough. But it was difficult for me to try and follow the exact bowing instructions while playing. I’m not a "formal" student, so I’m not use to learning that way. It’s like notation – I can do it, but I’m not good at it because it isn’t something I do regularly. So, I became very frustrated with myself over that.
I had the opportunity to speak one on one with my instructor about how important it was in her eyes to play the tune with the exact bowings that she was teaching – and I explained my frustration.
She told me that she included bowing instructions when she taught because most of the time the students need to have a starting place for learning and they were expecting to be told what to do. She went on to say that the more important thing was to be able to articulate the drive of the rhythm while playing the melody. And that the bowing directions she was teaching at the beginners pace is different than what she would be using at full tempo at a jam or at a performance. In fact she said that she rarely thinks about patterns when she is playing or learning a tune. She told me that what I was playing sounded great and to not be overly concerned about every stroke being right, but to concentrate more on listening. There are patterns but the pattern shouldn’t dictate what you are playing. They provide the framework or the underlying feel for a tune but as a general rule they shouldn’t be over stated or emphasized. You need to hear the melody and feel the rhythm.
I talked to the other instructor and got pretty much the same advice. He said that patterns are important, but only as a tool that can help you reach the goal. The tune has to have the right rhythm and drive – it doesn’t matter how you get it. If you can get it without learning patterns, who cares? But you gotta have it.
I have friends who are very good fiddlers – and I pretty much get the same advice from them.
GeeDubya - Posted - 02/02/2013: 13:38:00
And as an instructor I'd echo what both your teachers said, Tony, & what I've said in my own classes many times. HEAR the melody; FEEL the rhythm. I always offer some general patterns as suggestions to start with, but insist that ultimately how you get from A to Z is an individual bowing journey. Many teachers I've had over the years say pretty much the same thing - the bowing adventure is your own & there are many, many ways to get there. If it sounds right, and passes muster with knowledgeable folks then you're on the right trail. This endless discussion ad nauseaum, will always be just that.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/03/2013: 00:30:47
Jam today. Working on electric guitars. Shopping. Talking with friends. Tired.
While jamming I had a thought.
You can bow like a singer sings, or you can bow like a drummer drums.
I've know fiddlers who really only bow like a singer sings. Kenny Hall and J.P. Fraley come to mind.
Tommy Jarrell's genius was bowing like a drummer drums. Melvin Wine has it too. So does Bruce Molsky.
I like to do both. For me, pattern downbowing is the approach I use when bowing like a drummer drums.
It IS my percussion instrument. Among other things, some guitarists at the jams are rhythmically challenged, or the room shape or acoustics makes staying together DIFFICULT. If it gets REALLY BAD, I'll get out my economy dreadnought and beat on it, but if I'm playing fiddle, sometimes a few appropriate shuffle patterns will draw the wandering guitarists back together.
In my other musical life as an electric guitarist, I've played with a lot of drummers. Some good, some not so good. It's really common for a drummer to be able to do ONE rhythm well, most often a rock rhythm, since that's what they played as teenagers. Get them on a song in 6/8 time, or even 3/4, and they can be totally lost. Some fiddlers remind me of drummers like that... they have ONE groove that works for them... and they can't adjust to someone else's groove very well. Other people have to adapt to them the best they can.
With the different rhythms expressed by different patterns, I find I have great flexibility in adapting to:
Other musicians
Different parts of a melody.
Different phrasings of a melody as the mood strikes.
New tunes.
Other styles.
Each pattern seems to fit a different kind of groove and feel.
Sawstroke... melodic in a baroque, formal kind of way...
Nashville- straight ahead drive
Sawshuffle- steady, solid, easy to follow.
Syncoshuffle - snappy (aside from the obvious use in syncopation)
Offset Nashville- bouncy.
Smoothshuffle- suitable for smoothing out a section of the tune when used with the above patterns.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 02/03/2013 00:34:30
IdleHands - Posted - 02/03/2013: 05:26:53
But One can play very rhythmically and percussively without using downbowing patterns. And a system interchangeable at every measure is not more flexible than an anywhichway system interchangeable at every note. It has to do with granularity.
There are different grooves and feels but they can be achieved through a number of bowings to equal effect, in essence.
I do very much appreciation your zealous and continued reframing and repackaging of your core message. You amuse me, pogo.
amwildman - Posted - 02/03/2013: 08:42:36
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
zealous and continued reframing and repackaging of your core message.
Now in breaking news: The pot calls the kettle black.
You heard it first here on the Fiddle Hangout. Stay tuned for more stunning developments.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/04/2013: 06:13:53
quote:
Originally posted by amwildman
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
zealous and continued reframing and repackaging of your core message.
Now in breaking news: The pot calls the kettle black.
You heard it first here on the Fiddle Hangout. Stay tuned for more stunning developments.
Actually, i stick with the same concise reasoning throughout. Even in old time tunes, backward bowing and not avoiding it makes you a better player.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/04/2013: 06:18:06
Complete Bowing Mastery is within everyone's reach. The soft bigotry of low expectations.... something.
nickbachman - Posted - 02/04/2013: 08:50:42
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
quote:
Originally posted by amwildman
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
zealous and continued reframing and repackaging of your core message.
Now in breaking news: The pot calls the kettle black.
You heard it first here on the Fiddle Hangout. Stay tuned for more stunning developments.
Actually, i stick with the same concise reasoning throughout. Even in old time tunes, backward bowing and not avoiding it makes you a better player.
You're not even trying.
IdleHands - Posted - 02/04/2013: 11:39:35
Not trying? I already won . Oh snap.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/05/2013: 10:46:07
I played my fiddle a liitlle bit today, and now I'm confused: it's already established that I'm a down bower...and a pattern bower (Nashville Shuffle just comes automatically), but I was wondering today if the stuff that happens in between the shuffles, but has to feel it's going in the right direction, yet seems to be indecipherable stitches to tie the shuffles and right-feeling endings/ beginnings together....if that other stuff isn't Anywhichways! I was trying to get something interesting to come out of Old Joe Clark for the Feb Virtual Fifdle Festival, after having not played for a pretty long time. I was trying to deliberately work in some stuff but came up with ????? Between the shuffles!
IdleHands - Posted - 02/05/2013: 11:53:32
Maybe you're really just a "licks" player, as discussed earlier, where certain licks are used at certain key points in the song but the whole thing is not completely patterned out beforehand.
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 02/05/2013: 11:56:59
Bowing patterns are NOT for our enjoyment! They exist so that we may debate, argue with, accuse, disparage, and metaphorically pounce upon whoever has the smallest bow in the jam circle. They exist so that we may create the longest thread ever on this fair hangout. Perhaps this...subject will only be decided by a duel. That's right. Gentleman and ladies I propound that we witness a duel to settle the matter at hand.
Each side will pick a leader. The two duelists will stand back to back, fiddles under arm and bows in hand. Upon a signal both shall walk twenty paces and then turn and charge towards the other, the pattern bower using his best patterns, the anywhichwayer using whatever the Muse or the Norns imbue him with. The first to make his opponent drop his fiddle and clasp hands over ears and scream, "Stopppppp! I can't take it!!!!!!!!!!!" wins and shall forthwith settle the matter for good and the betterment of fiddlers throughout the world.
Because I care,
Humbled
Swing - Posted - 02/05/2013: 12:15:42
Two points for Humble, I want to be there for the carnage..drinks afterward.
PlayHappy
DougD - Posted - 02/05/2013: 12:19:36
Peggy, you didn't really expect to find useful information in this thread, did you? Its just here for ranting about philosophy.
Nevertheless, here's a version of "Old Joe Clark" I like, and maybe will give you some ideas of things to do with your bow while you're waiting for the next note of the melody to come around: amazon.com/Down-Cider-Mill-Osc...y+jarrell
IdleHands - Posted - 02/05/2013: 13:17:46
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
... it also happens in something that is very VERBOTEN to talk about here- no, actually it happens in TWO things that it's VERBOTEN to talk about here, so maybe that's why we don't talk about them. But that's all I'm gonna say about that!
Yes. People actually fear being freed from their cages. The bananas are there for all us now. It's bananas for everybody time!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/05/2013: 13:36:08
Well I don't know the answers, being very new at fiddling, and self-taught to boot. But I know when I'm going the right way, and there is a wrong way I either avoid or figure a way out of if it gets to that,,,so I know for sure I'm a directional bower,,,dwn bowing. I know for sure I'm a pattern bower, Nashville shuffling my way through everything...yet, I've always tried to describe what happens between shuffle patterns...I've always thought of it like jumping in and out of a kid's ongoing jump rope...now, I'm wondering, what exactly happens when I jump outta that shuffle...before I jump back in again???? And I really don't know.
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
