fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/25/2007:  02:04:45

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quote:

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Originally posted by SlowPockets

Here's my question on this, how can I use this stuff to my advantage. Should I be practicing scales or something using these patterns or should I try doing these patterns over songs I'm already working on? Anyone have some tips on how I should incorporate this stuff into my practice?

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I have found that the first part June Apple,
at least the way I play it
(it's on my ezfolk page- see link below)
makes a great framework for learning bow patterns,
because it has a series of eight notes that are two identical
four note patterns, all on one string, no string changes.
Since most bowing patterns take place over eight notes,
it makes it very easy to see what's going on with the bow.

I would just go down Dave Reiner's list at first.
Sawstroke, Nashville Shuffle, "Unshuffle", Georgia Shuffle
"Sawshuffle", "Smooth Shuffle".
When I did the stuff on ezfolk a year ago,
I was just using "Unshuffle", Georgia Shuffle, "Sawshuffle"
and "Smooth Shuffle". Unshuffle and Georgia Shuffle
are really the same motions with the bow, just putting
the downstroke on the 3 instead of the 1.
Smooth Shuffle is just Sawshuffle with a 3 note downward
slur instead of the first 3 single strokes...
and both contain a single Georgia Shuffle pattern on the end-
so the four bowings are closely related, and work together
really well.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

SlowPockets - Posted - 08/25/2007:  21:38:49

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Thanks Michael

Perfect speed on June Apple, not to fast not to slow, great for learning. I've heard that tune before and wanted to learn it but didn't know the name.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"bluegrass is nothing but a hillbilly version of jazz." - Kenny Baker

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 08/31/2007:  21:04:17

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quote:

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Originally posted by SlowPockets

Here's my question on this, how can I use this stuff to my advantage. Should I be practicing scales or something using these patterns or should I try doing these patterns over songs I'm already working on? Anyone have some tips on how I should incorporate this stuff into my practice?

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I sympathize completel;y with this question. I've been studying lots of bowing patterns,
and I can play them all fairly well, using them all the way through a given tune. But
the piece that's still missing for me is, WHY choose any one of those patterns for a
particular phrase in a particular tune?

I've started to get some partial answers to this question, but there are still lots of
mysteries. For example, I can see how the patterns that are "unbalanced" (i.e.,
those which spend unequal amounts of time on an upbow versus a downbow)
provide an automatic accent on various notes. The best example is the "Georgia
Bow", which gives you an automatic accent on the two offbeats in each measure.
But there are other frequently used patterns that are "balanced", and it's not clear
to me why and when these patterns should be used. Some of the balanced
patterns can still be used to get accents various places, but it's not automatic
like it is with the unbalanced patterns.

After spending years playing as a "both-ways" fiddler, essentailly oblivious about
which direction I was going, I've recently been trying to mostly downbow on
the first beat of each measure (except when I want an accent on an offbeat, in
which case I then usually move the downbow to the given offbeat note), and I
think that HAS helped my timing a good bit.

I would like to see more discussion from proficient fiddlers about WHY they
choose various patterns for various phrases...that kind of discussion would
certainly help me, and I suspect there are other struggling fiddlers out there
who could also benefit.



Mike Fontenot

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/02/2007:  16:34:13

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Mike,

I think you're on the right track, especially with starting on
the downstroke... the flip side of which is you <also> need to
finish on an upstroke.

Dave and I both have mentioned some description
of the "feel" of certain shuffles (see especially his first
post in my thread, and my pattern-for-pattern response
shortly afterward), in addition, I give most
of them descriptive names.

I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about when you
say Georgia Bow... since there is also a pattern named
Georgia Shuffle (#4 in Dave Reiner's initial post) , which
as far as I understand is a different pattern
from Georgia Bow (#6 in Dave Reiner's initial post).
This is one reason I advocate descriptive
names similar to "sawstroke"... it avoids the confusion
of regional names.

One thing I have tended to do is use a lot of interchangeable
8-note patterns, that all start on a downstroke and end on an
upstroke. This means I can swap out one phrase for
a different bowing, without affecting the following phrases
in any way.
This means that I can more or less feel my way through a tune...
it's not always so much left-brained analysis...
I can kind of feel the melody and the string change patterns
forcing me into certain appropriate bowings.
Bowingwise, if it sounds right and feels right, it is right!
At least until you try jamming with someone who plays the
tune with a different rhythm!

I am probably currently using 4 bowings more than any other:
"Sawshuffle" (Reiner's 5th pattern)
"Smoothshuffle (Reiner's 6th pattern)
( I used the previous two almost exclusively on my ezfolk.com
tunes)
"Syncoshuffle" (one of two I mention in a separate post)
"Offset Shuffle (the other I mention in the same post)

Sawshuffle has kind of a chuggachugga feel
because of the initial sawstroke,
Smoothshuffle is, well, <smooth> and good
for playing long notes in a way that blends with Sawshuffle.
Syncoshuffle is great for syncopated phrases- like
getting the imitation chicken cackle in "Chicken Reel"
It can also be smoothed out an "subtle-ized" to make
it a tight driving shuffle that blends well with sawstroke.
"Offset shuffle" starts out like syncoshuffle, but is "balanced"
and to me, this makes it very suitable for a slow bouncy
feel, which is the way I first heard it used.

I more or less intuitively pick one of these favorites
and try to play a tune just with them, and they usually
work well enough for simple tunes or at jams if I'm trying
to hop on a new tune- but if the string
changes don't allow them I'll consciously try other
patterns until I find one that fits... and use sawstroke
if nothing else works.

Some of this is complicated by the fact that the same
pattern can be accented many different ways-
I am often amazed at how many different ways there
are to play the very common "Nashville Shuffle",
same pattern, different accents.

I've also noticed that <some> of my preference for certain
bowings on a tune may be because of the different balance
points and feels of certain bows.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

OTJunky - Posted - 09/02/2007:  21:44:07

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quote:

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Mike Fontenot wrote:
I would like to see more discussion from proficient fiddlers about WHY they
choose various patterns for various phrases...that kind of discussion would
certainly help me, and I suspect there are other struggling fiddlers out there
who could also benefit.

---

Don't know whether or not I qualify as a "proficient fiddler" but it does seem that my job with respect to this thread is to remind people from time to time that fiddling is an art - not a science.

Learning to fiddle is a bit like learning to sing in a foreign language - and each regional fiddling style has its own "accent".

So, I think asking something like, "Now that I know all these bowing techniques, how do I put'em together?" is putting the cart before the horse to some extent. The value to be had from knowing all these bowing techniques is that they form the grammer for most forms of American fiddling - and if you know them it's easier to tell what other fiddlers are doing when you listen to them.

Appalachian fiddlers use one set bowing techniques, Texas style players use another set, and Bluegrass players use still another set - and there can even be substantial variations among individual fiddlers within any of these styles.

So, I think the way this has to come about is that you say, for example, "I'm going to spend a week or two listening to some Appalachian fiddling and learn a few tunes in that style." If you've already know the catalogue of bowing techniques it'll be easier to figure out what the fiddlers you listen to are doing and easier and faster to mimic their styles.

Then once you've learned how they use the Appalachian bag of bowing tricks, it'll be easier for you to play almost any tune in the Appalachian style.

If you don't like Appalachian fiddling pick another style to listen to.

If you want to learn to fiddle you have to just listen to what other fiddlers are doing and try to do it. All this is made easier if you've already spent some time learning and practicing the well-known set of bowing techniques. But once you've gotten some command of the bowings catalogued in this thread, the next step is to pick out some fiddlers you like, listen to them fiddle, then try and play what their playing.

When you've done this enough you'll find there are some bowings you like more than others. Then you'll start favoring the ones you like and - eventually - will develop your own way of fiddling that particularly suits your own tastes.

When you get to a point where you like the way you play most tunes better than the way most other fiddlers play them, you can just enjoy fiddling and the bowing will come naturally...

-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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Edited by - OTJunky on 09/02/2007 22:26:40

KCFiddles - Posted - 09/02/2007:  22:06:55

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I wouldn't call myself proficient, either, but I'm learning from some of the best, and they hardly seem to stick to any set pattern for more than a couple of measures. They manage to keep up a very danceable rhythm, yet the tunes still seem sprightly and melodic. Best of both worlds, IMO.

I'm learning about bowing by learning tunes I like, not for note and stroke for stroke, from the great fiddlers that I admire. This is pretty easy with cd's and slowdown software. I figure every tune I learn from them is another page in my musical dictionary, or another tool in my tool bag. Every tune I learn teaches me things about how to get the sound I want, and will eventually blend into a sound uniquely my own, but in the meantime, trying to sound a little bit like Cyril Stinnett or Art Galbraith or Kenny Baker isn't all that bad,,,,,,,,

Michael R

Every Fiddler has a Dream
kcstrings.com

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/03/2007:  12:29:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by OTJunky
[...] it does seem that my job with respect to this thread is to remind people from time to time that fiddling is an art - not a science.
[...]
If you want to learn to fiddle you have to just listen to what other fiddlers are doing and try to do it.

---

For those of us who are missing a right brain (I suspect that an MRI of my head
really would show a large cavity on the right side of my skull!), it's pretty-much
left-brain or nothing.

I wish I COULD listen to a good fiddler, and be able to tell which notes he's
slurring together, but I can't. And watching him bow doesn't help either,
as least at the speeds of most fiddle tunes. Slowdown software lets me
determine what all the notes are, but it still frequently doesn't allow me
to distinguish between slurred and isolated notes, especially when the
fiddler is capable of very smooth saw strokes.


Mike Fontenot

OTJunky - Posted - 09/03/2007:  15:41:41

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quote:

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Mike Fontenant wrote:
I wish I COULD listen to a good fiddler, and be able to tell which notes he's slurring together, but I can't.

---

I just want to be clear that I didn't mean to imply this was quick or easy.

I often listen really hard and work out something that I think sounds "close" - though it's usually not. In fact sometimes I know that part of the tune isn't close - but I have to have something to play there.

After playing that for a week or two, I'll go back and listen again. Usually, I can find some way to get closer since I do have one version of the tune under my hands. This kind of iteration can go on for months until I'm sure I have something that's close.

I can get a lot of'em this way but there are some I've been puzzling over for years and I'm still not sure I know what's going on.

But like anything else practice improves this skill. Since I enjoy listening to other fiddlers, I don't mind spending the time at it.

There may be some people that can just listen the first time and pick it up, but I haven't met one of'em yet.

You can short circuit this quite a bit if you can find another fiddler to show you how to play some tunes. If one doesn't live near you, then the alternative is to visit a multi-day OT festival. Nobody has time to show you much at a single day event. But when people are camping overnight or a couple of nights, it's amazing how much free learning can be done.

-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

KCFiddles - Posted - 09/03/2007:  18:22:24

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With good slowdown software, you can slow a piece down to 1/4 speed or even less, and you can isolate and loop even a single beat. I know this is true, because I sometimes have to do that when learning a new song. If you can isolate a single measure or even a beat at 1/4 speed, can't you just try different bowings for that measure until you find the one that sounds OK? A lot of the time, if you learn a tune and the rhythm you'll be left with only one way to bow it., or at least a very few choices. Another thing which you have to take into consideration is the accent on the bowing. The same pattern can sound a lot different if it is accented differently, and different bowings can sound the same if you accent the same, so it would seem that sometimes the exact direction of the bow isn't as critical as the accents.

I often start learning a tune with straight saw strokes, and start adding slurs and accents until if feels right and flows right. As OTJ says, it can take a long time to get it the way you want it. I worked on one tune for a months until it dawned on me to make a very small but telling change.

Bowing isn't always a rigid thing anyway, as long as you can keep up the pulse and rhythm of the tune. My bowing often gets out of whack when I play a variation, or just plain goof up, but I can still usually make the tune sound OK if I can maintain the beat until I can get back on track. I also will use completely different bowings for variation on different repeats for a different feel.

I will say that it seems to be getting easier. The more tunes I learn strictly by ear, the easier it seems to be to pick up the next one, and to recognize patterns.

Michael R

Every Fiddler has a Dream
kcstrings.com

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/03/2007:  23:43:17

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Left brain analysis and right brain intuitiveness both
have a role in bowing. I tend to be more left-brained
about patterns when I am just learning the pattern-
or when I am trying to teach it.

However, the decisions about what bowing goes where
are not so easy to analyze... at some point, the bowing patterns
are so internalized that you can intuit or feel which one to play next,
and at some point, you get to where you could bow
the same passage several different ways without even thinking about it.
So paradoxically, the more advanced a fiddler is,
the less able he or she may be to tell you <why> they are doing
what they are doing.

There are a few tunes where on a certain part, I try to use
a different bowing every time... that's about the only time
I'm really thinking about the bowing.

One thing I think I have caught myself doing is that like
Dave Reiner's 3rd and 4th patterns, if you start a pattern
2 notes late or two notes early, even though the bowing arm
is making essentially the same motion, the rhythmic effect
is totally different. Sometimes this may happen accidentally,
sometimes intuitively, and there is a thin line between the two.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/05/2007:  15:38:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo


So paradoxically, the more advanced a fiddler is,
the less able he or she may be to tell you <why> they are doing
what they are doing.

---

Yeah, I've come to the same conclusion. Years ago, I was attending
a fiddle workshop at a bluegrass festival, lead by a very famous fiddler
(who will remain anonymous). I asked, "How do you decide how to
bow a tune?". He replied, "Bowing is the most important thing in
fiddling. Next question?"!!

Lately, I've learned a few tunes directly from some unusually accurate
transcriptions. And when I play those tunes, with exactly the bowing
that the transcription indicates, I find that my playing is MUCH better
than with the tunes that I have chosen my own bowing for...my timing is
better, my playing is less hesitant, and is just much more solid-sounding.
So what I'm trying to do, with all this analysis, is to be able to get that
solid feel in all the tunes I play, without having to depend on finding
an accurate transcription of a good fiddler's playing for every tune
that I want to play. All transcriptions aren't created equal. Some aren't
an accurate depiction of what the fiddler was doing, And others, while
perhaps accurate, aren't always particularly nice to listen to anyway.
And many great versions of great tunes haven't ever been transcribed
at all.



Mike Fontenot

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/05/2007:  16:45:49

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Mike,

Yes, I could see why that workshop would have been
frustrating.

With some fiddlers it may be an inability to analyze what they
are doing. I know there is one bowing I started using recently-
I have seen bluegrass fiddlers doing it for years, and recently
it just clicked, and I can do it (it's a tad smoother than my normal
shuffles and also balanced) but I haven't yet figured out
how it works out stroke for stroke and beat for beat...
and I don't really <need> to, since I can do it!
Some fiddlers could be that way with all or most of their bowings.

With some fiddlers, the bowings may be considered trade
secrets, and they don't want to give them out... for free at least.
Analyzing and transcribing bowings can be hard work,
and not everyone is willing to work that hard and give it away.

I'm sure you have a right brain... do you drive a car?
Much of the activity of driving gets offloaded to the right-brain.
The left brain is great at analyzing, but it tends to be slow and
deliberate- too slow for many traffic situations, and actually
for many playing situations as well.
If you drum on the table with your fingers, you are probably
right-braining that too. Fiddle bowing seems to use the same
circuits.

You are probably just very much at home in your left brain,
and it's harder for you to shift than for some people, but I bet at some point you can and do.

What are your sources of good transcriptions-
Fiddler's Fakebook? I'd like to know what a good transcription
looks like... I think I'm capable of transcribing much of my playing (except that one bowing I mentioned, and bow-bobbling
or rocking). But I'd like to see what a good transcription looks like.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

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Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/05/2007 16:52:59

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/06/2007:  14:10:01

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

I know there is one bowing I started using recently-
I have seen bluegrass fiddlers doing it for years, and recently
it just clicked, and I can do it (it's a tad smoother than my normal
shuffles and also balanced) but I haven't yet figured out
how it works out stroke for stroke and beat for beat...
and I don't really <need> to, since I can do it!
[...]
What are your sources of good transcriptions-
Fiddler's Fakebook? I'd like to know what a good transcription
looks like... I think I'm capable of transcribing much of my playing (except that one bowing I mentioned, and bow-bobbling
or rocking). But I'd like to see what a good transcription looks like.

---

Re: your new "mystery shuffle", if you ever do figure out how to diagram it,
I'd like to see it.

Re: the unusually good transcriptions I've been working on:
I haven't found the Fiddler's Fakebook transcriptions to be very accurate...
or, if they ARE accurate, then their strategy must not include trying to
downbow the first beat of the measure (whenever there's no reason
not to).

Two of the transcriptions that play really well for me were done by
Hollis Taylor. The first was "Red Wing", that appeared in Fiddler
Magazine (Winter, 06/07). The second was her transcription of
"Whiskey Before Breakfast" in her "Old Time Fiddle Standards"
book. There were also some tunes in Brad Leftwich's 2nd
Homespun video that gave me the feeling "of being in the groove"
when I finally got them up to speed. And lately, I've been working on
Jim Wood's "Cottonpatch Rag" that appeared in Fiddler Magazine
(fall 06)...I'm nowhere near having that one up to speed, so I can't
say yet whether I'll like the result of the way I play it.



Mike Fontenot

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 09/07/2007:  11:14:48

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Does anyone know the best way to bow the first bar of Hell Amongst the Yearlings? I've been trying to get this song up to speed for a while but can't seem to stumble upon a bowing that feels right.

dsreiner - Posted - 09/07/2007:  13:44:58

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For Hell Among the Yearlings in D, the first bar is usually a 3 note phrase repeated: D E F# D E F# D E | F# ...

I find a very effective bowing for this situation (which arises a lot in rags, too) is to group the notes like this: 1-1-1-3-1-1

Or I would write it like this: D u D u U u D u where d=down, D=accented down, u=up, U=accented up

Dave



Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/07/2007:  14:24:46

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Dave,

I agree, it is a very raggy sounding phrase...
but I'm surprised that you're using sawshuffle for that!

To each his own, I guess...

I use the one I call syncoshuffle that groups them
1-2-1-2-1-1.

I'll have to try Sawshuffle on it, though!

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

oldtimer - Posted - 09/07/2007:  22:24:26

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I bow Hell Amongst the Yearlings a little differently. I don't know where I got it, but I have played it this way for a long time. I also don't know how to analyze it. You can hear it here:
fiddlehangout.ws/users/audio/h...72007.mp3

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

" Our music is part of a different system. The rules of classical music don't apply. " R.D. Lunceford

---

Edited by - oldtimer on 09/07/2007 22:28:22

OTJunky - Posted - 09/07/2007:  22:43:58

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quote:

---

dsreiner wrote:
For Hell Among the Yearlings in D, the first bar is usually a 3 note phrase repeated: D E F# D E F# D E | F# ...

---

Well, I promised myself several weeks ago that I'd stay off this bowing patterns thread...

But after the last three posts, I can't resist saying that I like to bow these three note synchopated patterns with just two notes per bow.

I also use the two notes per bow pattern on the low part where the three note alternating pattern is A C# E A C# E A C# | E

So, now we have four different fiddlers and four different bowing preferences - go figure...

Probably if we have a half dozen fiddlers opine, we'll have a half dozen more different bowings..


-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 09/07/2007:  23:28:17

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Thanks guys. What a great site this is!!!

So far I like the pattern being called Saw shuffle, but will try them all. Now that I have some new patterns to put to the song I think I'll be able to develop some speed. I think the 2 notes per bow is going to make a nice change of feel for the B part.

OT Junky, (if you make it back to this thread) do you use this same bowing for the B part of Cricket on the Hearth too?

Thanks to all, again.

---

Edited by - fiddlenbanjo on 09/07/2007 23:34:07

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/08/2007:  00:29:28

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

So, now we have four different fiddlers and four different bowing preferences - go figure...

Probably if we have a half dozen fiddlers opine, we'll have a half dozen more different bowings..

-OTJ

---

Yeah, you're probably right....
and the funny thing is, for me, it feels like the melody
is <forcing> me to use "syncoshuffle" almost more
than any other passage... and the rest of you probably feel
the same about your respective patterns.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

OTJunky - Posted - 09/08/2007:  21:37:31

---

quote:

---

fiddlenbanjo wrote:
OT Junky, (if you make it back to this thread) do you use this same bowing for the B part of Cricket on the Hearth too?

---

Well, I haven't played Cricket on the Hearth in a long time - thanks for reminding me of it.

But I suppose I would use it on the B-part there too. I've also used in on the B-part of Coming Down from Denver - on both the A chord and the E chord.

The other bowing trick I have that works in these places is the thing a lot of Missouri fiddlers do - again two notes per bow - on a A chord on the bottom two strings. The notes are A E A E C# E C# E | A E A E C# E a F# | a - where the lower case "a" denotes the open a string. Lyman Enloe, and Cyril Stinnett both used this a lot. It takes a while to get smooth but it sounds kewl and it's nice to have more than one way to do things.

This might work better on Cricket on the Hearth which is a "straighter" tune than Hell Among the Yearlings but it does impart a "Missouri" flavor that you might not want. It's a bit easier to do both these bowing things when tuned to ADae instead of GDae though I don't think either Enloe or Stinnett ever cross-tuned.

-OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

---

Edited by - OTJunky on 09/08/2007 21:38:30

dsreiner - Posted - 09/08/2007:  23:32:50

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldtimer

I bow Hell Amongst the Yearlings a little differently. I don't know where I got it, but I have played it this way for a long time. I also don't know how to analyze it. You can hear it here:
fiddlehangout.ws/users/audio/h...72007.mp3

stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey

---

Hi Glenn-

Nice version! Mine's closer to Clark Kessinger's, and my A part has an extra measure at the end (9 measures), unless I'm playing for dancing and cut it out.

Dave

Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/10/2007:  02:27:08

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

I know there is one bowing I started using recently-
I have seen bluegrass fiddlers doing it for years, and recently
it just clicked, and I can do it (it's a tad smoother than my normal
shuffles and also balanced) but I haven't yet figured out
how it works out stroke for stroke and beat for beat...
and I don't really <need> to, since I can do it!
[...]

---

Re: your new "mystery shuffle", if you ever do figure out how to diagram it,
I'd like to see it.

---

I was just playing with it, and I <think> I have a way of diagramming it.
It's basically a four note slur that changes
just before the 3rd note in a phrase, and therefore
accents it.
But you normally have to start at the beginning of a phrase,
unless you have a pair of lead in notes.

D-d-U-u-u-u-D-d:d-d-U-u-u-u-D-d
2-4-4-4-2, covering 16 notes instead of the usual
eight, since you have to go longer to show how a long
four note slur expresses a pattern.
The colon is the measure line.
Or you could start with a couple of sawstrokes, then
everything afterwards would reverse:
D-U-D-d-d-d-U-u:u-u-D-d-d-d-U-u

I think it would work well with a Nashville Shuffle,
since it also is a balanced bowing, with no bias towards
up or down strokes, but I can't really test that since I use
Nashville Shuffle so seldom that I'm lousy at it, but
I think I've observed the bowing mostly in bluegrass fiddlers
who also use Nashville a lot, so it must work well with it.

What to call it?
Maybe Tetrashuffle, or Quadrashuffle,
for the four note slurs it's based on.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/11/2007:  15:54:43

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo


I was just playing with it, and I <think> I have a way of diagramming it.
It's basically a four note slur that changes
just before the 3rd note in a phrase, and therefore
accents it.
But you normally have to start at the beginning of a phrase,
unless you have a pair of lead in notes.

D-d-U-u-u-u-D-d:d-d-U-u-u-u-D-d
2-4-4-4-2, covering 16 notes instead of the usual
eight, [...]

What to call it?
Maybe Tetrashuffle, or Quadrashuffle,
for the four note slurs it's based on.

---

Thanks for taking the time to figure that out, and to post it. I'll add it
to my list. I had started to focus on 3-note slurs, since (as originally
pointed out to me by Fletcher Bright) they can replace 3 saw
strokes (anywhere) without reversing the bowing downstream.
Although I DO like your syncoshuffle (which is what Brad Leftwich
calls "Tommy's Lick" (after Tommy Jarrel) in his 2nd fiddle video.).



Mike Fontenot

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/11/2007:  16:11:12

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo


[...] it feels like the melody
is <forcing> me to use "syncoshuffle" almost more
than any other passage...

---

That's exactly the "missing link" I've been talking about! Is there
any way you can quantify what's going on there?

I realize that the existance and location of longer notes in a
tune (like 8ths, quarters, etc, in 2/4 time) can be inconsistent
with certain patterns (whereas all patterns will always work
in a tune containing only 16th notes). But since several
different posters have preferred different patterns for the
same tune, there's obviously more to it than just the locations
of longer notes...my suspicion is that it may be a matter of
choosing a pattern that tends to put the accents where
you want them. Or maybe it's also a matter of minimizing
slurred string crossings. Or maybe certain patterns just
"feel better" for a given tune. Or,...


Mike Fontenot

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/11/2007:  17:15:02

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot


I realize that the existance and location of longer notes in a
tune (like 8ths, quarters, etc, in 2/4 time) can be inconsistent
with certain patterns (whereas all patterns will always work
in a tune containing only 16th notes).

---

I should have also added that adjacent notes with the same
pitch can also be inconsistent (or, at least, very clumsy) with
a given bowing pattern (and this can happen even in the
case of all 16th notes). If the pattern calls for a slur between
those two notes, a real slur will cause those two notes to
sound like only one note. So to keep from being completely
forced out of the pattern at that point, you have to do an
"interrupted slur", where you pause very briefly and then
resume the motion in the same direction. I personally
try to avoid that as much as possible...I just don't like the
feel of it, and it seems like a very inefficient motion purely
from a physics standpoint. It's not so bad if you don't
momentarily stop the motion, but rather just give the bow
a "kick" on the second note...but that also causes an accent
on the second note, which may not be what you want.


Mike Fontenot

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/13/2007:  12:48:30

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo


[...] it feels like the melody
is <forcing> me to use "syncoshuffle" almost more
than any other passage...

---

That's exactly the "missing link" I've been talking about! Is there
any way you can quantify what's going on there?

I realize that the existance and location of longer notes in a
tune (like 8ths, quarters, etc, in 2/4 time) can be inconsistent
with certain patterns (whereas all patterns will always work
in a tune containing only 16th notes). But since several
different posters have preferred different patterns for the
same tune, there's obviously more to it than just the locations
of longer notes...my suspicion is that it may be a matter of
choosing a pattern that tends to put the accents where
you want them. Or maybe it's also a matter of minimizing
slurred string crossings. Or maybe certain patterns just
"feel better" for a given tune. Or,...


Mike Fontenot

---

It's all of the above!

In "Hell Amongst The Yearlings"
"Syncoshuffle" both avoids slurred string crossings
(at least with the melody I use)
and puts the accents in the right place.

One thing going on with bow rhythms is related to
something I noticed while trying to imitate Roger McGuinn's
characteristic flatpick arpeggio on 12 string guitar.
The arpeggio pattern went:
low, middle, high, low, middle, high, low, high.
Then I realized the thing that made it drive was that
it had two groups of 3 followed by a group of 2,
for a total of 8 notes. So it is in 4/4 or 2/4,
but has the flavor of triple time going on in it.
I also heard that McGuinn basically got this pattern
from bluegrass mandolin, where it's called "McReynolds"
picking.

Sometime in the last couple of years, it dawned on me
that nearly all of my favorite bowing patterns have this
3-3-2 thing going on.
The most obvious is "Smoothshuffle",
where you have two three note slurs followed by two single
strokes.
Sawshuffle substitutes 3 single strokes for the first slur,
so it is still divided the same way.
At first Syncoshuffle seemed like it didn't fit, but then
I realized that you have a single stroke
+ a 2 note slur which = 3 followed
by another single stroke followed by a 2 note slur
which = 3, followed by the two single strokes.
Georgia Shuffle, if started on an upstroke on the beginning
of phrase can also suggest the 3-3-1-1 pattern, because you
have a 2 note slur + a single stroke which = 3
and a 3 note slur, followed by 2 single strokes.
And these four patterns are normally the majority of my bowshuffles- I use "Unshuffle" (reiner's #3)
and the "Offset Nashville Shuffle" on tunes that have a different
thing going on rhythmically.
So my favorite shuffles all have this family resemblance going
on, which means they fit together quite well in a way that
gives a tune a sense of cohesion, even as they contribute a variety of phrasings.
There are other "family groupings" that work too.
I use both the "Unshuffle" and the "Syncoshuffle" in Green Willis-
they resemble each other in that they both start with a single
stroke, then go right into a slur- and both fit together nicely
with sawstroke- so there you have 3 bowings that fit well together.
The mystery bowing I just recently figured out and described
for you has a flavor that makes it act a lot like Nashville Shuffle,
and it seems to fit together with that.
I was thinking that Nashville Shuffle doesn't fit into the
3-3-2 pattern, but it just occur

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/13/2007:  13:53:54

---

Mike Fontenot,
you said:

quote:

---

I realize that the existance and location of longer notes in a
tune (like 8ths, quarters, etc, in 2/4 time) can be inconsistent
with certain patterns (whereas all patterns will always work
in a tune containing only 16th notes).

---

The "Smoothshuffle" is my most common approach for
long notes- I first saw it work on the part of 8th of January
where the Battle of New Orleans words say
"Fired our guns"...
and it seems to work for most other long notes too.
I think I have a couple of alternate approaches,
but I don't use them often, and I haven't really analyzed
them yet.
I don't like 2 note slurs with the changes after even numbers
of notes, because rhythmically they just kind of sit there, with no drive. (Dave Reiner's bowing #8)

You also said:

quote:

---

I should have also added that adjacent notes with the same
pitch can also be inconsistent (or, at least, very clumsy) with
a given bowing pattern (and this can happen even in the
case of all 16th notes). If the pattern calls for a slur between
those two notes, a real slur will cause those two notes to
sound like only one note. So to keep from being completely
forced out of the pattern at that point, you have to do an
"interrupted slur", where you pause very briefly and then
resume the motion in the same direction. I personally
try to avoid that as much as possible...I just don't like the
feel of it, and it seems like a very inefficient motion purely
from a physics standpoint. It's not so bad if you don't
momentarily stop the motion, but rather just give the bow
a "kick" on the second note...but that also causes an accent
on the second note, which may not be what you want.

---

I wouldn't go for a full stop, but a <push> in the middle
of a slur is a <very> common approach, being done
a lot on Sawshuffle on the 2nd note within the 3 note
slur. This however is done more as a rhythmic device than
anything else. Anyplace where a slur covers the first note
(downbeat) in a four note group or the third note (backbeat)
in a four note group, a push within the slur makes rhythmic sense, if done on the downbeat or backbeat. It has to be practiced with the shuffle so you get
consistent at it, then it feels better, and adds a nice, but subtle
pulse.



Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/13/2007:  16:50:28

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

But you can see with that kind of regional spread,
I would be reluctant to name a shuffle
even after Tommy Jarrell. And then I can think
of a couple of shuffles that Tommy used that I've never
heard <anyone> else use- and if I were to call one of those
"Tommy's Shuffle" it would cause total confusion!"

---

Brad starts off his 2nd video with the pattern he calls "Tommy's
Lick", and I think his 1st and maybe most influential mentor
was Tommy Jarrel, so he probably just wanted to honor that.
He does mention, later when he names other patterns after
other fiddlers that he learned from, that he also heard Tommy
using that pattern also, but he wanted to "spread the honors
around". For example, he calls your sawshuffle "Melvin's
lick", and there is another one (that works well for tunes that
have two 8th notes starting off the measure, and where the
2nd of those notes is to be accented) that he calls "Benton's
lick". That pattern is just Tommy's lick, but shifted a half-measure.
He also uses the same names to describe the patterns you
get when you slur into the first note of a measure: i.e.,
"Tommy" can be either

| 1 1_1 1 1_1 1 1 | 1 1_1 1 1_1 1 1 | (my notation)

i.e, | D u_d u_D u | D u_d u_D u | (Dave's notation)

i.e, | Duud uuDu | Duud uuDu | (your notation)

or

| 1 1_1 1 1_1 1_1_|_1 1_1 1 _1 1 1 | (my notation)

i.e, | D u_d u_D_ | _ u_d u_D u | (Dave's notation)

i.e., | Duud uuDd | duud uuDu | (your notation)

(My notation normally uses "^" and "v" above the line of "1's"
to denote bow direction, but it doesn't reproduce well
in html...it's most useful when handwritten.)


Mike Fontenot

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/13/2007:  17:01:55

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo


The "Smoothshuffle" is my most common approach for
long notes-[...]

---

But that won't work when the long note (e.g., an 8th note in 2/4)
doesn't occur within your slurred group of 3's. For example,
if the melody is | 1 1 2 1 2 1 | , then | DddU uuDu | won't
fit that. Does your definition of "smoothshuffle" include
variations where you position the groups of "3s" in various
different ways, with or without isolated notes in between?
(That's basically what Fletcher Bright does, I believe).


Mike Fontenot

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/15/2007:  15:07:35

---

Mike,

I definitely use repositioning,
but more for whole shuffles.
2 sawstrokes before a shuffle moves it over a little,
4 sawstrokes or a Georgia Shuffle or an Unshuffle
moves it over even more.

The phrase you mention I would just bow as it is.
(That's always an option in any tune-
then you have to decide if it drives well or not)
It would work out just as well as a Nashville Shuffle
or a Syncoshuffle- the first four notes are the reverse
of a Nashville, and the second four notes are like the first
four in a Syncoshuffle...
wait a minute... it's a "Reverse Syncoshuffle"!
(have you been backward masking my shuffles???)


Right now my definition of a Smoothshuffle
(3-3-1-1) is pretty rigid.
And I find it astonishing how many long notes in various
tunes it <does> work on.

I can see how Fletcher Bright (I haven't heard of him- tell me more...)
might have a system like that-
so far my system doesn't bend that way.
I'm sure there are a number of possible bowing systems,
but the important thing is to have one that works rhythmically
(has enough <drive>) and allows flexibility in adapting
to new tunes in the genre.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

---

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/18/2007 17:47:06

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/16/2007:  14:17:13

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo


I can see how Fletcher Bright (I haven't heard of him- tell me more...)
might have a system like that-

---

The fact that you haven't heard of him is probably because he has
earned his living in ways other than fiddling...but he's a "pro quality"
fiddler who has been playing in a band called the "Dismembered
Tennesseans" for forty or fifty years. There's a very nice article
about him in the latest issue of Fiddler Magazine.


Mike Fontenot

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/16/2007:  14:43:36

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo


I'm sure there are a number of possible bowing systems,
but the important thing is to have one that works rhythmically
(has enough <drive>) [...]

---

Do you have any thoughts on how to quantify that quality
of "having drive"? Is it an objective or a subjective
thing? I.e., would the quality of "drive" show up on a
plot of the actual waveform of a tune being played?
Is it mostly a matter of accents on certain notes (and
if so, what notes?), or
perhaps a matter of good timing, or perhaps the quality
of clearly defining the measures and/or phrases?
Or does it have more
to do with how it FEELS to YOU as you are bowing it...i.e.,
is it simply pleasurable (and maybe effortless) to bow?


Mike Fontenot

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/16/2007:  22:25:26

---

Mike,

Drive... okay, I'll give it a try.

It definitely has something to do with backbeat.

Most of the shuffles I favor end the same way-
with a long-short-short pattern that is up-down-up,
basically identical to the second segment of a Nashville
Shuffle, although it could either be slurred into via a 3 note
slur, or start with a fresh 2 note slur.

One of the reasons why I call Dave Reiner's #3 pattern
the "Unshuffle" is because it <doesn't> emphasize the backbeat
but the downbeat, and by itself, it <doesn't> sound very driving.
I find it does have a role to play though mixed with more
driving shuffles.

Likewise for me, Dave Reiner's 8th pattern of 2 note slurs
doesn't drive- at least not the way I play them.

When I was still a relatively new fiddler, maybe 3 years into it,
I noticed a number of young fiddlers that were using a <lot>
of Georgia Shuffle, probably because the effect was <so>
driving. The problem for me was because the pattern repeated
every four notes, the effect was like a piledriver, and I didn't find
it very musical, and flattened out the melody.
I seem to like patterns where the beginning
of the shuffle is varied to accommodate the variations and
vagaries of the melody, but the driving section is saved
for the last four notes of the shuffle.

Now some of the drive <is> in the pattern, but not all of it.

I have noticed that shuffles can be played in a way that makes
the drive more subtle, or make it more overt.
This includes Nashville shuffle, sawshuffle, and syncoshuffle
at the very least. They can all be played in a way that is tight
and sounds vaguely "British" to me... or played in a way that is very
driving and more characteristically American.
I can totally change the character of the way I play Flowers
of Edinburgh or Temperance Reel this way, without changing
a single actual shuffle pattern.

So I guess in answer to your question, it's <both>!

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/18/2007:  14:12:13

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Drive... okay, I'll give it a try. [...]

---

Thanks for all those observations. If I'm understanding you
correctly, it sounds like the "drive feeling" that you like and
strive for is mostly due to an accent on the second (and
not the first) offbeat of each measure, and that you like
to get that accent with a downbow, not an upbow.
Specifically, if the number of "fast notes" in each measure
is 8 (I call them "sne's", or "sixteenth-note-equivalents",
diagrammed as

| 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |

you like to accent the 6th sne in each measure, and NOT the 3rd
sne. So that's why you usually stay away from the
Georgia shuffle, and also from what you call the "unshuffle"
(which I've always called "the on-beat Georgia"). It also
might explain why you avoid the nashville shuffle, which
allows the accents to be chosen (rather than being almost
automatic), but which tends to accent the same note in
the 2nd half of the measure as you choose to accent in
the 1st half (but with opposite bow directions, because
the 2nd half is the mirror-image of the 1st half). The
"syncoshuffle" (or "Tommy's) also makes it easy to accent
an sne in the 2nd half-measure without accenting the
corresponding sne in the 1st half.


Mike Fontenot

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/18/2007:  17:27:09

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Drive... okay, I'll give it a try. [...]

---

Thanks for all those observations. If I'm understanding you
correctly, it sounds like the "drive feeling" that you like and
strive for is mostly due to an accent on the second (and
not the first) offbeat of each measure, and that you like
to get that accent with a downbow, not an upbow.
Specifically, if the number of "fast notes" in each measure
is 8 (I call them "sne's", or "sixteenth-note-equivalents",
diagrammed as

| 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |

you like to accent the 6th sne in each measure, and NOT the 3rd
sne. So that's why you usually stay away from the
Georgia shuffle, and also from what you call the "unshuffle"
(which I've always called "the on-beat Georgia"). It also
might explain why you avoid the nashville shuffle, which
allows the accents to be chosen (rather than being almost
automatic), but which tends to accent the same note in
the 2nd half of the measure as you choose to accent in
the 1st half (but with opposite bow directions, because
the 2nd half is the mirror-image of the 1st half). The
"syncoshuffle" (or "Tommy's) also makes it easy to accent
an sne in the 2nd half-measure without accenting the
corresponding sne in the 1st half.

Mike Fontenot

---

Are you sure you didn't mean "sne" number 7?
(Your post makes perfect sense if it's sne #7,
which is the equivalent to sne #3 in the second group
of 4 snes)
Or possibly #5?
#6 would be a note that would be an upstroke in a group
of 8 sawstroked "sne"s, and I would be surprised if I accented
one of those very often.
If you meant sne #7, your post is probably right on the money
as a general trend in my bowing, although I don't
think I'm quite as rigid as that, partly because different
tunes seem to demand different shuffles and different
accents.

My concept has always been that I want the tune melody
to define the rhythmic groove and/or drive, and
not force the tune into a particular groove or rhythm that
<I> have an excessive fondness for, or bias towards.

Like I said, through phrasing you can take a particular shuffle
and make it very overt, or very subtle.
This is especially true with slurs.
Sawshuffle can be played with or without a push on
sne #5, Syncoshuffle can be played with or without
a push on sne #3.
In both cases the effect is quite different, yet the "pushed"
and "unpushed" versions of the shuffle can coexist
next to each other quite nicely.

I suspect I may alternate between accenting sne #5
and sne# 7, since #5 is the backbeat of the 8 note group,
and #7 is the backbeat of the second 4 note group.

I remember doing Magpie one day with sawshuffle most of the way through,
at least on the first part, and somehow something
clicked different, not in the way I was patterning the bowing,
but in the way I was accenting the pattern. It had <tremendous>
drive that day, and unfortunately, I've been unable to capture
that drive permanently on that tune, but at least I know it's possible.
In the same way, Green Willis, which is a combination
of "Unshuffle" and "Syncoshuffle" in the first part,
had a breakthrough day where all of a sudden I found a different
way of accenting the bowings, and it suddenly had more drive-
fortunately I at least got to the recording setup during that
breakthrough, and the Green Willis I've posted on my Hangout
homepage is that recording.

Another sense I have is that more and more, my way
of picking bowings and accentin

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/18/2007:  17:45:27

---

Mike,

Something that came up recently in our exchange on bowings
within this thread is the possibility that the choice of a shuffle
pattern is based on or influenced by string changes in the melody.
I feel this is a huge factor.
I also use the Syncoshuffle in Whiskey before Breakfast
<and> in Fisher's Hornpipe, and the choice has a whole
lot to do with where the string changes take place.
Both of those, <and> Hell Amongs the Yearling have this
pattern where a note is played on a lower string with the 3rd
left hand finger, then 2 notes are played on the adjacent higher
string open and fingered with the index, then back to the lower
string, 3rd finger. (all notes mentioned here are "SNEs").

Not only does it make the tunes easier to play, it also enhances
the drive immensely. I had never thought of Fisher's Hornpipe
as being a driving tune, but it drives very well with Syncoshuffle
most of the way through it.
But when you think of it, the two go together.
Any poorly executed string change, especially in the middle
of a slur, is going to <kill> the drive, and anything that makes
the execution easier and gives you more control is going
to make getting the drive easier, although you still
have to have the rhythmic intuition of a good drummer
within you to get the drive, in any case.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/18/2007:  18:30:30

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

So that's why you usually stay away from the
Georgia shuffle, and also from what you call the "unshuffle"
(which I've always called "the on-beat Georgia").

---

Mike, you says "always"... have you heard that term from
a <lot> of sources?

Anybody else- have you heard the term "On-beat Georgia" shuffle
for Dave Reiner's 3rd pattern (1-3)?

If it <is> a common term, I'll stop using the term "unshuffle"
and go with that. I have no desire to fly in the face of traditional
names if the traditional name is
A. Firmly established (no alternate names)
B. Makes sense

That bowing <is> certainly understandable in relation
to the more common Georgia Shuffle.

That would only strengthen my resolve to hold onto
the term "Smoothshuffle", which OTJ tells me is sometimes
called "Georgia Bow"... but is the bowing Alan Jabbour
demonstrates on the Library of Congress video and says
Henry Reed used... and someone else has heard it called
"rag bow"!
Since there are already two bowings (according to your terminology)
using the name "Georgia" I'm reluctant
to use the term "Georgia Bow" and since I have never yet
seen it demonstrated in a rag, but have pretty strong testimony
of it's being used in Old Time and Irish.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/19/2007:  14:21:18

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot

Specifically, if the number of "fast notes" in each measure
is 8 (I call them "sne's", or "sixteenth-note-equivalents",
diagrammed as

| 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |

you like to accent the 6th sne in each measure, and NOT the 3rd
sne.

---

Are you sure you didn't mean "sne" number 7?

---

Yes, you are right...sorry for my carelessness. I appreciate your
careful reading.

I usually call sne1 and sne5 the "beats" (and I've never differentiated
between them, although I like your term "backbeat" for sne5 (vs
I guess the "downbeat" for sne1)), and I call sne3 and sne7 the
"offbeats" (and, again, I don't have any term to differentiate
between them (although that might be useful, given that they
influence your "drive feel" differently)). Also, I've never heard
or given names for sne2, sne4, sne6, and sne8...perhaps
because they are probably not often accented.


Mike Fontenot

Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 09/19/2007:  14:29:29

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo
[about my term "On-Beat Georgia"]
[brMike, you says "always"... have you heard that term from
a <lot> of sources?

---

It's just my own term...I don't know if anyone else uses it.

I've also always considered "Georgia shuffle" and
"Georgia bow" to be synonymous, but apparently
that's not gospel.


Mike Fontenot

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/19/2007:  21:19:43

---

Well, what I know as Georgia Shuffle
and the Smoothshuffle that gets called Georgia Bow
is definitely related. It might be a question of where to draw
the line, or how to start the Georgia Shuffle.

You see, in terms of a repeating pattern, Georgia Shuffle
as Dave Reiner lists it, and as I have always conceived
of it is this series of 3 note upward slurs with the downstroke
on the backbeat.
But in that case the natural way to start it is to start
with a two note (SNE) upward slur, then the single downstroke,
then repeat, ad nauseam.

BUT,
starting on an upstroke IS NOT a normal, natural
thing to do in North American traditional fiddling,
at least for the most part.

One time I found a bowing labelled "Georgia Shuffle"
on line, and to my great surprise, it started....
with what I call "Sawshuffle"!
But then it continued with 2 or 3 repetitions of the 3 note upward
slur followed by the single backbeat downstroke.

That seemed peculiar to me, because I think of Sawshuffle
as a bowing entity of its own, but evidently, to this person,
it was merely a way of starting the Georgia Shuffle properly,
going through the Sawshuffle pattern was merely an accidental
byproduct.

Well, now that I think of it, what I call Smoothshuffle may
likewise be considered the proper way of starting the Georgia
Shuffle by still other people, who likewise may not
consider it a separate bowing from Georgia Shuffle.

Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

dsreiner - Posted - 09/20/2007:  13:48:56

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Hi Michael-

Sounds reasonable to me. I frequently go from Sawshuffle into Georgia shuffle. I think of the last note (of 8) in the measure as the decision point... to keep the upbow going or not. I recall writing out this transition in the bowing section of OTFAA around 20 years ago, so I guess I've been doing it for a while.

Regards,

Dave

Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (Nov 2-4, 2007)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

FiddleFish - Posted - 03/27/2008:  17:18:29

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Dave, Michael, and OTJ,

Great thread! A tad overwhelming as a whole, but there's a lot here that can be broken down into small pieces and assimilated a little at a time. This thread deserves a bump.


My fiddling is fine - its my rhythm and pitch that are off

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/27/2008:  20:51:06

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Yeah,
there's no need to learn ALL those patterns.

There are three I use a lot, about three more I use fairly often,
but I seldom try and cram more than three patterns in a tune.
That would tend to sap a tunes drive.
Usually one shuffle forms the rhythmic backbone of the tune,
and the other two are there to accent certain parts of the melody,
especially the last phrase.
The goal is simplicity, without getting into monotony!

There are some I only use in one place in a certain specific tune to solve a phrasing
problem in that tune.

quote:

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Originally posted by FiddleFish

Dave, Michael, and OTJ,

Great thread! A tad overwhelming as a whole, but there's a lot here that can be broken down into small pieces and assimilated a little at a time. This thread deserves a bump.


My fiddling is fine - its my rhythm and pitch that are off

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Michael

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference
-Robert Frost

FiddleNewb - Posted - 06/24/2008:  20:26:37

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helpful stuff


..not violin but fiddle.

Eric Sprado - Posted - 06/25/2008:  13:26:44

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Holy Cow!!!! I've been playing for a zillion years and probably use some or most of those bowings,but trying to read all the duduzuzus and DuDuwho whos in the descriptions is beyond me.Guess I need to really sit down with them and try to figure it out. What you describe as "double shuffle" is standard fare for me when jamming,playing "Draggin The Bow", "Beaumont Rag" or "Back UP and Push". I'm not a contest player,but wondering why such a basic pattern is against the rules?? I hear some contest players( I know the Booher family well) who are surely better musicians than I. Seems a strange rule.... Eric Sprado

OTJunky - Posted - 06/25/2008:  13:39:01

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I think there are several reasons the double shuffle gets outlawed at most contests...

First, it didn't really enter the American OT fiddle repertoire until the late 40's. Legend has it that the jazz violinist, Joe Venutti (born: 1903-died: 1978), introduced it to fiddlers in Texas and Oklahoma - and it spread from there to the rest of the country. The Skillet Licker's version of "Back Up and Push" doesn't include the double shuffle.

So, this would be about the same reason that the "Tennessee Waltz" gets excluded from a lot of contests. It was composed in 1947 and thus is not considered to be something an "Old Time Fiddler" should play in a contest.

If you think this is a bit silly, I'm inclined to agree - but I don't make any contest rules.

The second reason is that a lot of "serious" contests want to judge as much of a fiddler's technique as they can and they usually only have three tunes (BreakDown, Waltz, and "Tune of Choice") to go by. So, if a contestant double shuffle's through the entire A or B part of some tune there's not much a judge can say about that part except that the fiddler can or can't double shuffle. Most judges would rather hear a sequence of clean articulated, well phrased notes played in tune and with good tone.

The third reason is that the double shuffle is such a crowd pleaser that when a fiddler does it well, the majority of the audience decides that the best double shuffler is the best fiddler. I think many judges grew tired of having to explain why the "best fiddler" didn't win...

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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Edited by - OTJunky on 06/25/2008 13:43:52

fiddlecraver - Posted - 06/25/2008:  13:42:31

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I know that this sounds ignorant, but I cant follow any of this. I remember being at a bluegrass festival years ago and playing guitar and someone asked me where I learned "cross picking" from. I said, whats "cross picking/" And they thought I was being smart.

Anyway, I was wondering what you all would say about the bowing of Burl Hammons (The Artist) or Wilson Douglas?

-Shawn

fiddlecraver@yahoo.com
shawncraver.com
myspace.com/shawncraver

Eric Sprado - Posted - 06/25/2008:  13:48:04

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INteresting: Lots of times I stick in one bar of double shuffle when getting ready to return from a 5 chord back to the one chord. I guess because it has been around during all of my fiddling years I just assumed that it has been here forever. I have read that Joe Venuti and Stuff Smith had a huge influence on Texas fiddling. Thanks for info. Eric