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fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/04/2014: 14:59:19
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
I gotta say I tried both David Bragger and Brad Leftwich...all that up down up up down etc. drove me crazy! I like whole units, can't learn from isolated stuff, but lots of people can and Bragger and Leftwich have done a lot of good in their teachings.
Tell you what....
go to my music section, and scroll down to the "S" section where is says Shuffle Patterns.
Just learn the exercise as a melody.... don't think about using the pattern right off.
Once you have the melody down (I have it in D modal on the second string so it's not so screechy as to distract you),
try doing the different patterns over that. The melody is so repetitive, and yet it's all short notes (basically a modification of the first part of my version of June Apple).
My first step learning a pattern is to get the moves down like you did in the video, and to use it as if it were a "taters" introduction. THEN I use it on the second part of Eighth January and/or the low part of Growling Old Man. Then I use it on the first part of June Apple. Once I can use it on the first part of June Apple (the exercise is just that part modded to stay on the same string).
In other words.... once I can do the moves of the pattern and can do them smoothly... I use them on PROGRESSIVELY MORE COMPLEX MELODIC STRUCTURES..... so it gets harder GRADUALLY....... that way you can smooth out the learning curve somewhat.
tonyelder - Posted - 01/04/2014: 15:12:58
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
Tony,
Did you try the Tobacco Hill with D Bragger? Slow it down. Try to ignore the up bow pulse.
If there is ever a debate between the ego and better fiddling, let better fiddling win... The fiddle is much bigger and greater!
...ok, I'll try to ignore the up bow pulse.
"If there is ever a debate between the ego and better fiddling, let better fiddling win... The fiddle is much bigger and greater!"
I like that.
You've put into words something that I like to think is exactly the way I approach my fiddling. But it's easy to understand that - someone else looks at what you are doing - they may wonder if that is true. But we just have to trust that we are being true to ourselves. What others think is not nearly as important.
Nope. I haven't looked at it yet. I have looked at several in the past. But I'm going there now to look at this one you have recommended.
But before I go there let me tell you a story. I had a band mate once who was a really good "swing" guitar player (he was our fiddler). We were learning a few swing tunes, and I wasn't playing something exactly the way he thought I should. So he asked if I would be offended if he showed me the way it should be played. I said "Sure, but only if you aren't offended if I don't play it that way." He looked at me puzzled. I said "You are starting with a few assumptions - that after you have shown me, I will be able to do it just like you have shown me - or that I will want to play it that way. But yes, I do want to hear what you want to show me."
Thanks again.
OK. Watched it.
This isn't a tune I have learned. Not sure I really want to. But there are some things I really like about the video. Mostly, the way David plays.
Goes without needing to be said - I don't play as good as David - that's a given. For anyone who can - bravo! Seriously. I've only had praise for his skills.
Would I like to play as good as he plays? Goodness - lol - why sure I would like to. But does that mean I have to play just like him before I can be considered good?
Obviously, playing just like him wouldn't be a bad thing, would it... but I'm not interested in making that my fiddling goal. I know some folks who have - and they are good!
Nevertheless, I do play a few Snake Chapman tunes. I'm not ashamed of how I handle the bow on those tunes. Yes, there always going to be room for improvement.
I'll try to record a few. No videos. I just don't don't do them.
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 01/04/2014: 15:39:14
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
I might try to do a better bowing update than that terrible one I did earlier today sometime when I've got time...
I know it wasn't up to your usual standards of tone, etc., but I was impressed that you HAVE been able to figure out syncoshuffle ... you could have given up, numerous times, but you didn't. Congrats!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/04/2014: 16:10:50
I do realize I wasn't always getting the shuffles I was trying for...my brain was rattled and I was feeling like I had to rush through because stuff kept happening...but, well I think I got a few of em in there right and was gonna label them but the computer crashed...it's back now but I don't think I have the time now...lol. This is why I can't ever practice! Anyway, I might erase that one, if delete it whatever ya call it, and get a better one that's more clear with better shuffles. Pogo, I have been to that mp3 before, but thanks for reminding me about it--- probably time for me to go back!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/04/2014: 23:32:28
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
I do realize I wasn't always getting the shuffles I was trying for...my brain was rattled and I was feeling like I had to rush through because stuff kept happening...but, well I think I got a few of em in there right and was gonna label them but the computer crashed...it's back now but I don't think I have the time now...lol. This is why I can't ever practice! Anyway, I might erase that one, if delete it whatever ya call it, and get a better one that's more clear with better shuffles. Pogo, I have been to that mp3 before, but thanks for reminding me about it--- probably time for me to go back!
The beginning part is really clear... if there was some way to splice... er EDIT off the end and attach a new one. I'm sure the little dogs weren't helpling any. In any case, don't be in a hurry to take it off, there's a lot of useful stuff in it.
Oh yeah.... one thing you said that I REALLY agree with- Syncoshuffle IS the hardest of the bowings you mentioned, and the downbeat-leading variant that Tommy Jarrell uses so often is the hardest version of it. So while his bowing in that isn't complex in terms of the NUMBER of shuffles, his version of Syncoshuffle is a pretty steep learning curve.
I think a better bowing target for an intermediate fiddler would be Melvin Wine's playing.
Like Tommy Jarrell, Melvin Wine uses Nashville for the "main body" bowing, and like Tommy, he uses beginning and ending licks. BUT his beginning and ending licks (either Smoothshuffle and Sawshuffle or variants of them) stay tidily within the measures, unlike Tommy Jarrell's beat-leading Syncoshuffle. And Smoothshuffle and Sawshuffle are physically the EASIEST patterns, IMO- even easier than Nashville Shuffle.
However, because Syncoshuffle is hard doesn't mean it should be avoided... I think fiddlers need to stick it... maybe not on the backburner, but in the OVEN as early as possible!!!!
One thing I found about Synchoshuffle was that it seemed to push me towards a looser wrist, or a grip favoring better wrist hinging.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/05/2014: 03:28:41
One of the hardest things to me about Synco shuffle is to play it loose, insteada tight and jerky.
DougD - Posted - 01/05/2014: 05:25:37
Groundhogpeggy - earlier you said you need to have "insight into what your tune is trying to say and how to get the notes within your shuffles to say it it allow it to come through." You can also just adapt your bowing to the notes of the tune, instead of trying to cram them into a preconceived pattern. That's a much more straightforward approach, and the one used by most fiddlers I know.
Edited by - DougD on 01/05/2014 05:27:56
pdfarrell - Posted - 01/05/2014: 06:05:52
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
OK. Watched it.
This isn't a tune I have learned. Not sure I really want to. But there are some things I really like about the video. Mostly, the way David plays.
Goes without needing to be said - I don't play as good as David - that's a given. For anyone who can - bravo! Seriously. I've only had praise for his skills.
Would I like to play as good as he plays? Goodness - lol - why sure I would like to. But does that mean I have to play just like him before I can be considered good?
Obviously, playing just like him wouldn't be a bad thing, would it... but I'm not interested in making that my fiddling goal. I know some folks who have - and they are good!
Nevertheless, I do play a few Snake Chapman tunes. I'm not ashamed of how I handle the bow on those tunes. Yes, there always going to be room for improvement.
I'll try to record a few. No videos. I just don't don't do them.
I agree that the tune (Can you Dance a Tobacco) is not the most exciting. I just use it as an exercise to practice the synco-shuffle. I can do it fairly fluently now. And it was only after learning this new shuffle did I realize how much I played the Nashville shuffle. Now I can interchange the two shuffles and it just makes playing more fun.
I hardly ever play the tune now. It served a good purpose at the time. By the way, the goal of learning a tune is not necessarily to sound like another fiddler. Some of my favorite tunes I've gotten an A part from one fiddler and B part from another.
I know I'm talkin a lot for a new guy. I'll post some music soon. I'm waiting for my new fiddle to arrive so that's my excuse for now. I did post a video on Peg's Dec fiddle fest. It's loaded with synco-shuffles. And that tune (Breakin up Christmas) is a whole bunch fun!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/05/2014: 06:53:21
Thanks for participating, PDF, I enjoyed your video and the dancers so much! You nailed the tune too.Breaking up Christmas is a fun tune but I sure have trouble with that and the other ones that beg for sawmill tuning...lol...I guess because it's just too hard from standard tuning, but some people do it. For some reason, I never feel good about going out of GDAE. Doug, I know people let the tune direct the bow mant times...such as Boil em Cabbages Down, etc., where seems Nashville Shuffle has gotta be used, and probably why it's a first tune for so many fiddkers and Clawhammer banjo players. But for me, if a "rhythmic groove" isn't that apparent within a tune, like BTCDown, or even if it is, I need to play outta a groove. I do this on every instrument I ever play...for me, the fun is weaving the melody line through a groove that's true, but peppered up with other rhythms sprinkled in here and there, all toying with the groove, but not disturbing it. Like the Dwight Diller quote: the right hand provides a pool of water and the left hand drops in the notes, like pebbles. It's just the way I like. I enjoyed many discussions with Dwight and my one and only trip out to see him...we talked for two or three years because I found he and I had 100% mutual agreement on how rhythm works for us-- he being a great musician of course and me being a fumbly amateur...still-- our philosophies about it seemed the same. I list contact with him after he got sick and had some hard times...afraid to bother him anymore. But it's just the way I love to play. The interplay and all the crazy things going on between ongoing melody and variations of that, while the groove carries it, yet rhythmic variations give the whole thing something extra, this us why Nashville shuffle gets boring, for me...this is why, and sorry to quote Dwight again, but why I "Don't let the left hand be the boss," as Dwight says. It's all the stuff going on...to me, that's when it gets rich, no matter how good or amateur you are...that richness, complexity, that makes it great. Sounds like I'm talking about wine, hey??? Lol, but just my feeling and why I give a little thought to how grappling with shuffles might be of help for me personally, though as I've said many times, not for everybody, obviously. And folk allows artistic license to do it how we want--- I'm not seeing the license so much in Bluegrass,..lol. But get back to folk and I think it's there.
DougD - Posted - 01/05/2014: 07:32:46
Peggy, no I didn't mean that the tune might require a particular shuffle. What I meant was that if you know what notes you feel you want to play, and try them for awhile, sooner or later the way (or ways) to move the bow will become clear. No shuffles needed. This may work better for "notier" tunes as opposed to more "groove based" tunes. As I listen to old time fiddlers they seem less "shuffle" based than some people might think. Long notes are held out - they're not interrupted by jiggling the bow.
Ultimately whatever works for you is good.
pdfarrell - Posted - 01/05/2014: 07:48:38
Peg,
I remember being reluctant to try cross tuning. I was encouraged here to give it a try. I'm real glad I did it! It's fun, fun, fun!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/05/2014: 07:54:14
I should add that in my thinking a lot about this and many discussions with Dwight Diller ( I never found anybody else to really discuss this with, outside of here on FHO, but I mean nobody through personal discussion), he was talking more banjo, while I was talking banjo, guitar, fiddle, dulcimer...I guess that's all I was talking. Dwight wouldn't hear of fiddling patterns, and wasn't into discussing the idea--- of course he also said his own fiddling made himself sick...lol. Well his fiddling didn't ever make me sick...but his banjo playing, I believe, is the best old time claw hammering you could ever hear anywhere. It's rich and complex, for sure, and really a lot going on in there all at once, if you listen. I never heard all that going on in his fiddling. But, his buddy from a few counties over, John Morris...his fiddling hits me as very complex in the same way as Dwight's claw hammering...and I believe, IMHO, it is about the best old time fiddling you could ever hear today, and there is a lot, the same sorta stuff, all going on at once in his fiddling. I got to meet John M one time in a jam in Vandalia, and watched his fiddling closely...I got to talk to him afterwards, but he'd led the jam for a couple of hours, he was eating a sandwich, etc., I didn't wanna burden him down with a buncha questions at the moment. But I did notice his bowing has a set groove ( not Nashvilke...but something he sets the tune with--- I can't tell you what exactly it is, but could be smooth shuffle...nit sure though), and then it just gets really interesting from there.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/05/2014: 08:11:47
It was about 2007 it so when I watched J Morris play...now, several years later with possibly a better ear and eye for bowing ( though not much better, I'll admit!), lookin at a video of him playing I found real quick, almost looks something like a backwards saw shuffle or something...pogo probably knows a name for it, but seems something like the front end like a smooth shuffle and the back end the front end section of a saw shuffle, with smooth shuffle phrase endings...I might be wrong about exactly what it is, and I have no idea what Mr Morris would say about it because I didn't feel like bothering him the one time I was so priviledged as to see him play, but there is some groove running true along here of some kind...plus he gets very clever with noting, etc. if you hear much of his you see it's very complex stuff...I think he's gotta be one of the very best old time fiddlers in our time. It's a real shame there's not more of him out there for people to see and hear. Oops, forgot the link...lol. youtu.be/WldIaSFsrpg
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 01/05/2014 08:12:23
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/05/2014: 08:19:17
Oops, I should also add he changes up that bowing style frequently too...some double shuffle sounds like to he ( not hokum) and jingle bells and all kinds of good stuff. But there is a groove that runs true...he is an expert of playing through it, jumping in and out, weaving the melody,,.my gosh he's just flat out GOOD.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/05/2014: 08:35:39
Listen to Diiller on banjo and Morris on fiddle and you will be in old time heaven, for sure! Better yet, buy yourself a copy of their movie, The Fifth String...full of Diller and Morris playing...you won't forget that music after you've heard it...THAT is oldtime music, in the flesh, played by people of our time not trying to imitate anybody else ( although exposed to and learned from others). These are our generations, live, old time musicians...and I only wish I could get more opportunity to watch them play. Oops, maybe I'm off topic, but, well, Morris sure sounds like he knows the groove, inside out, and is a master at bowing! Ok, I'll shut up and make lunch now--- who's hungry? How much do I need to make???
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 01/05/2014 08:36:24
DougD - Posted - 01/05/2014: 08:43:44
Peggy, I know both John and Dwight and played some with them both in bygone days. Never talked about any of this stuff though. Both good musicians, but I haven't seen either of them in a long time, although I've seen John's brother David sometimes.
You used to be able to find the documentary about the festival John and David hosted online, but I guess you have to buy it now. Worth it though, its a great film, full of the old time spirit.
Edited by - DougD on 01/05/2014 08:47:52
OTJunky - Posted - 01/05/2014: 08:56:28
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Oops, forgot the link...lol. youtu.be/WldIaSFsrpg
Yup - that's good old time fiddlng....
--OTJ
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/05/2014: 09:30:49
I kept in touch with Dwight for a few years but get got sick, has to travel 8 hrs or so for health care ( va, I'm guessin) and doesn't drive, etc., was having lots of troubles and I thought I shouldn't bother him with lots of chit chat over this kinda stuff. I heard a rumor that he's working again now with various music projects, but still haven't felt it was my place to take up his time or energy. But our discussion before was both loathing and finding helpful at the same time the idea of a bum diddy...a simplified way to verbally communicate an elementary Clawhammer groove. It wasn't a thing communicated in the old days...you just saw it, showed it, but since people played more than talking about playing nobody ever called it by any name. Now as far as fiddle grooves, Dwight was turned off by the whole idea when I was in regular contact with him. Yet, he was in agreement with me that John Morris is about as good as it gets, and whether John has discussed it or not, there are name able grooves in that awesome bowing he does. Now, as to guitar picking, fingerpicking or thumb picking as some call it...some call it Travis style...whatever ya wanna call it...I have met people who actually have names they call their shots...seems very weird to me, having just learned mostly on my own, from watching and hearing neighbors and friends do it...seems odd anyone would isolate then out and name them...I guess because I learned them young and gradually let them "season" over time, and it just seems weird--- yet, fir communication purposes, I can see how somebody very analytical could isolate, name, those fingerpicking shots for learning or understanding. Of course, as with bowing grooves, you'd then run the risk of making it a dictation exercise and not music. But if you get the essence of a groove down and can unconsciously throw it into your playing at will utilize all it can do, then you've made it your own. Thinking through all if it this way has led me to think if your bowing needs help, somebody has "done the math," and you can take advantage of it or leave it alone. You can use it to dictate your bowing and mess up your playing too or, you can cut years and years off your fiddling experience and cut to the chase. This is just how I see it now...I will report back in 20 years...lol...when I'm 80!!! ( one reason I'll do whatever it takes to shave years off my fiddling learning curve!)
tonyelder - Posted - 01/05/2014: 11:20:41
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
OK. Watched it.
This isn't a tune I have learned. Not sure I really want to. But there are some things I really like about the video. Mostly, the way David plays.
Goes without needing to be said - I don't play as good as David - that's a given. For anyone who can - bravo! Seriously. I've only had praise for his skills.
Would I like to play as good as he plays? Goodness - lol - why sure I would like to. But does that mean I have to play just like him before I can be considered good?
Obviously, playing just like him wouldn't be a bad thing, would it... but I'm not interested in making that my fiddling goal. I know some folks who have - and they are good!
Nevertheless, I do play a few Snake Chapman tunes. I'm not ashamed of how I handle the bow on those tunes. Yes, there always going to be room for improvement.
I'll try to record a few. No videos. I just don't don't do them.
I agree that the tune (Can you Dance a Tobacco) is not the most exciting. I just use it as an exercise to practice the synco-shuffle. I can do it fairly fluently now. And it was only after learning this new shuffle did I realize how much I played the Nashville shuffle. Now I can interchange the two shuffles and it just makes playing more fun.
I hardly ever play the tune now. It served a good purpose at the time. By the way, the goal of learning a tune is not necessarily to sound like another fiddler. Some of my favorite tunes I've gotten an A part from one fiddler and B part from another.
I know I'm talkin a lot for a new guy. I'll post some music soon. I'm waiting for my new fiddle to arrive so that's my excuse for now. I did post a video on Peg's Dec fiddle fest. It's loaded with synco-shuffles. And that tune (Breakin up Christmas) is a whole bunch fun!
Oh please - no!! I wasn't suggesting that my goal is to sound exactly like someone else.
In fact, what I did say was: "...playing just like him wouldn't be a bad thing, would it... but I'm not interested in making that my fiddling goal."
When I learn a new tune, it will usually be from my favorite recorded version. I will learn it by listening and playing along with the recording. I will play that melody and pick up a lot of the same expressions, phrasings, accents, and rhythmic patterns from that recording. And as hard as I might try to sound like the fiddler on that recording – I'm not bent on getting everything exactly the same. I'm simply trying to capture enough- so that I am able to play along with the recording and not distract from it. If what I do on the fiddle works with the recording, then I'm satisfied that it should be sufficient for me to play on my own. Doesn't mean I'm finished learning - the rest is polishing, refining, and listening for the other nuances that escaped my attention earlier. But I will usually remain fairly faithful to that version once I've learned the tune. I like the idea that folks will not only recognize the tune when I play it, but maybe even the version I play (if they know it).
Why? Because I like that version - it is my favorite - it is what inspired me to learn the tune in the first place.
Sometimes I will end up learning 2 versions a tune I like to play. I like to play 2 versions of Johnny Don't Get Drunk. But I haven't really felt inspired to mix and match. I wouldn't be opposed to it, just never really thought of it I guess.
Jams are different. If I'm not leading (seldom do), I try to play along with what I hear others playing – which usually ends up being a mix of what I play and what I hear being played.
Breaking Up Christmas is a fun tune to play.
Congratulations on the new fiddle!
Edited by - tonyelder on 01/05/2014 11:34:38
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/05/2014: 18:37:26
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
One of the hardest things to me about Synco shuffle is to play it loose, insteada tight and jerky.
Yeah, that's precisely the challenge... but tight and jerky makes it sound really syncopated... and that's how I used it at first, like in the high part of Turkey in the Straw. Just like with Nashville, you slowly get familiar with it, get control over it, and learn how to accent or NOT accent certain parts. That's when the Syncoshuffle fun REALLY begins!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/05/2014: 18:41:23
New question: new train of thought ( yes I'm wishy-washy!): to the non-patterned/shuffled bowers--- if you watch/ listen to the youtube I linked of John Morris playing above, soldier's Joy I think it was--- are you seeing a groove, if so, how are you seeing him do that? Now wondering if this whole bowing thing is just how individuals look at something. Like, I remember long discussions with our old friend who is a portrait artist-- he's even been featured on our educational tv...very good artist and we used to get the kids to bed...we'd get to talking about stuff very late--- but he would compare everything to color, and I'd compare everything to musical tone. But his big thing was that you set down colors on various backgrounds and get people to name the colors-- his pint being that it's not as obvious, or as " black and white," so to speak, as we think. It's very subjective, in lots of ways. So I'm wondering if different people can hear the same fiddling as different, well, strokes! Is it all just our perception?
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/05/2014: 18:53:04
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Groundhogpeggy - earlier you said you need to have "insight into what your tune is trying to say and how to get the notes within your shuffles to say it it allow it to come through." You can also just adapt your bowing to the notes of the tune, instead of trying to cram them into a preconceived pattern. That's a much more straightforward approach, and the one used by most fiddlers I know.
I've seen/heard Syncoshuffle used by a LOT of fiddlers. Tom Sauber taught it to me, without the name... you know "Tom, Brad, and Alice". I heard it used as an ending lick by John W. Summers, and a number of other fiddlers- like that oldtimer on YouTube playing Chinese Breakdown. I think Graham Townshend used it that way too. Anyway, it's a distinctive flavor, no other pattern will do what it does. But it requires practice to get it smooth... bowing often follows the path of least resistance. People deliberately learn Nashville so they can do "potatoes"... why not Syncoshuffle to put a syncopated ending on a tune part?
You see, that's where my REAL skepticism comes in.... you think you can "just do" a pattern that's taken me years to learn and get smooth??? I SO DOUBT THAT!!! Maybe if you've got a super supple bow hold... but in my experience, Syncoshuffle and Smoothshuffle in particular need to be learned DELIBERATELY... because they are counterintuitive. If people focus ONLY on the melody, they tend to strip those patterns out, even if they are clearly there in the source's playing. But they sound super cool once you learn them.
The truth is, if you focus only on the melody, you could play just about every Old Time tune with sawstroke and two note slurs. I'm fine with some of that, but I find too much of it BLAND. I crave syncopation as a spice.... it's clearly in a lot of the oldtimers playing, including Tommy Jarrell's playing.
Can you imagine Irish Trad people saying "Don't worry about the ornaments, just focus on the melody!!! HA!!! They'd never happen.... and the "Irish" fiddling would be awful bland.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/05/2014: 19:11:50
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
And it was only after learning this new shuffle did I realize how much I played the Nashville shuffle. Now I can interchange the two shuffles and it just makes playing more fun.
THAT is what I'm talking about!!!
You folks that think anywhichway works for you, FINE! I'm not REALLY talking to you. If you don't think your bowing is broke, I don't expect you to want to fix it.
It's the pattern fiddlers some of you gripe about so much that are using Nashville too much- THEY are the ones who can really benefit, and who I want to try another pattern. I'm trying to turn them from MONOPATTERN fiddlers into MULTIPATTERN fiddlers.
1. If they like Nashville, well, they've shown they LIKE patterns, and can learn a pattern.
2. Just one more pattern can make a whole lotta difference in terms of boring vs. interesting- when I listen to field recordings or watch videos of oldtimers... I seldom see them use only ONE bowing strategy.... but I also seldom see them use more than three patterns in a tune.
I often use only 3 myself- one as the main pattern to establish the groove, one for long notes, and another for syncopation.
I see Melvin Wine doing this too. Sometimes he uses Nashville as his main groove, sometimes Sawshuffle.
Like spices, a key aspect is the blend or the balance. Too little can be bland.... too much is just, well, TOO MUCH!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/05/2014: 21:09:40
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quote
:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Well.... it's a little blunt, yeah.
I'm just getting a little tired of this "Quantum mechanics bowing" and "my head hurts" stuff, which is making it sound like bowing analysis is overcomplicating things.
It ain't rocket science....it's counting to EIGHT.
And only counting to THREE for the slurs.
It's not because you can't..... If math challenged ME can do it, so can ALL of you.
It's 'cause you don't WANT to.
And WHY that is, I haven't figured out yet.
....
The reasons for this have been explained now by lots of different members in lots of different ways in lots of different threads over the years.
So if you haven't figured it out, it can't be because members with different opinions are reluctant to share them.
--OTJ
I know people have SAID stuff... but frankly the reasons haven't been very convincing.
Yeah, there are some people who are just good instinctive cooks, and I've encountered some fiddlers like that.
But just like a lot of people like and need recipes with precise measurements, a lot of people like and need "bowing recipes".
Now, when the topic comes up about "self taught", I chime in that I'm self-taught on fiddle. And I was mostly self taught on folk and electric guitar. But on clarinet (as far as I got) and on classical guitar, I took lessons, and especially on classical guitar, I came to appreciate what a good teacher could do, and also appreciate the concept of "graded" exercises.... the idea that you arrange material in order of difficulty from the easiest to the hardest. It really does make things easier... smoothes out steep learning curves.
Now... FIDDLE is KNOWN to have some STEEP learning curves going on.... intonation, getting decent bowed tone... handling this big long bow and trying to make it play in time. Then, we have this genre called Old Time, and it has some distinctives, and a lot of them are in the bowing. Now maybe some of you can "just do it", but telling a lot of people to "just do" the bowing is expecting an awful lot.
Many years ago, some friends put me up for a few weeks during a rough spot in my life. One night, kind of as a way of saying "Thank you" I offered to make them dinner. When I was a student, I came up with a way of making lentil soup with a little of this, and a little of that, and it tasted really good, and it was really the only thing I knew how to make besides oatmeal, quesadillas, fried eggs, and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. So I went with the lentil soup, and they REALLY liked it.... and wanted the recipe!!! Well... I was baffled at first... I had NEVER measured a thing, didn't need to, went by taste. But, hey, they were FRIENDS who'd really helped me out, so I made it once more, and buckled down and did the work, and ANALYZED the ingredients.... and it worked- they could make it too, and it tasted just as good when they made it! Now, I was tempted to say well, here are the ingredients, just taste it and guess the amounts, but like I say, gratitude made me not be lazy about it.
Anyway.... I had HEARD Tommy Jarrell on the County Records, and when I saw him, I could SEE he was using specific bowing ingredients that weren't all just sawstroke or Nashville. And that those ingredients were a big part of the flavor. Unfortunately, living in California, I knew my time back east was limited... I remember watching Tommy playing and thinking "I HOPE someone is getting his bowing down!" Well, somebody WAS! And I'm glad we have the "recipe". Now, just like food recipes, once you learn how to make it the original way, you can customize it to taste. It always used to bug me when my wife would complain about a recipe, and I'd say "Did you make any substitutions?" and yeah, she almost always had- usually honey for sugar, and those two behave VERY differently in recipes.
Well, I think it's a good thing to try Tommy's "bowing recipe" I could never quite "get" what he was doing at the beginning of tunes. At some point, I heard it was a variant of the same pattern Tom Sauber had showed me years earlier. And coincidentally, that very bowing just started to click, so I tried Tommy Jarrell's beat leading variation, and bingo, that started to click.... and now, I can use that flavor in all kinds of places.... INCLUDING tunes that aren't Round Peak tunes!!!! So I'm not using it to copy Mr. Jarrell, I'm making it MY OWN.
Another thing about patterns: I have noticed that some are easier, and some are harder, and I think they would lend themselves to some kind of graded bowing exercise thing. Now, that may horrify you, I know, but like I say, fiddle is HARD ENOUGH, and I think anybody that can make it a LITTLE easier is doing people a BIG favor!!! (And probably their long-suffering "significant others" as well!)
I had one other learning experience that really impacted how I view learning stuff, and that was how I learned German.
Back in the 1960's the used these ALM German textbooks in high schools...and also had versions for Spanish, French, Italian, and Latin.
I took German my sophomore year in high school, did really well, got straight A's, and learned how to use the method. Then, the next year we moved, and in the next school, I was 4 chapters ahead of the class. So I went on independent study.... I would sit in the courtyard, and would drill and drill until I knew the grammar structure COLD. I got the German award that year. When I finally got to travel in Germany during the summer two years later, it was amazing.... I could talk to just about anybody, and be understood, and constantly surprised people with how well this American could speak German, and I could understand most of what they said. It was a lot of fun! Well... I DO have some language talent.... and I DID work awfully hard.... but I think the designers of the ALM language method deserve some credit- they designed a good method, I figured out how to make it work, and it worked GREAT. Now, with fiddling, I see quite a few people with musical talent (they've played other instruments well) working VERY HARD... and not getting very far, very fast. I can't help but think that a good fiddling method with a bowing emphasis might help, if . Now, I don't know if Brad Leftwich's materials are laid out from easiest to hardest, and I don't know if Dave Reiner's will be.... but there aren't THAT many bowing materials available.
Anyway, in the light of all that, the approach you and others are espousing seems more like an Anti-method than a method.... tossing stuff against the wall, and seeing what sticks.... and the results seem as targeted and as predictable as Blind Man's Buff, or Pinning the Tail On The Donkey.
In comparison.... when someone showed me Nashville.... I GOT Nashville...
when someone showed me Georgia Shuffle, that's what I got...when Tom Sauber showed me Syncoshuffle.... after a whole lot of work, that's what I got. It's targeted, it's specific, if you want a key bowing ingredient from a specific fiddler, you can GET it.
I like that. I don't use vending machines much, but it wouldn't be much good if you put in your quarters and never knew whether what you wanted would come out or something else.
But that's what the approach you and others are espousing seems like to me.
Now, like I've said.... I DID use "anywhichway" at the beginning.... focused on the melody, forgot about direction, wasn't paying attention to patterns. It was good in that it allowed me to focus on:
A. Intonation
B. Getting halfway decent tone that wouldn't make people run as fast as possible in the other direction
C. Learning a repertoire of tunes
But after doing all that, it still didn't sound that good to me, not very Old Time, and not very much like my favorite fiddlers. The fiddler I had jammed with most as a clawhammer player used Nashville a lot, had a lot of drive, and a rollicking way of phrasing Nashville that put the tunes across well. He showed me Nashville.... and the rest is history!!!
For Old Time, I think of "Anywhichway" as a provisional, temporary bowing until I can get a pattern thing going that fits.... which these days isn't very long. For other stuff, song tunes, waltzes and such... anywhichway is fine.... that stuff isn't SUPPOSED to "drive" in the same way.
Also, I don't see other related instruments and genres being so anti-method. Clawhammer banjo players aren't. Bluegrass banjo players aren't. Nobody cares how you get started in fingerpicking or flatpicking guitar.... whether you used a method or taught yourself. The only thing that matters is.... can you play- WELL?
I just can't figure out why ONLY certain Old Time fiddlers... or in some cases apparently aspiring Old Time fiddlers get so.... SUPERSTITIOUS about this...
And a lot of the things said just set my "baloney" detectors off BIG TIME!!!
"Well, fiddle is a very hard instrument..." Well, maybe.... but violinists can teach other violinists with predictable results, Irish fiddle teachers can teach Irish fiddle, and get predictable results... and frankly they have a lot of complexity going on that we don't. There was a member a couple of years back "frfiddle" who posted a BUNCH of field recordings.... of what I think you could say were mid-level Old Timers..... and the bowing is not all that complicated.... mostly the first few patterns described by Dave Reiner in the first post of this thread. And the famous oldtimers use a few more than that.... but not dozens. It's NOT rocket science. It's FOLK MUSIC.
Since it's SIMPLER, you'd think it would be EASIER to get predictable results.
Also.... Bruce Molsky could teach Brittany Haas and Matt Brown.... they have a lot of the same thing going on with the bow... yet it's different from Bruce. Dave Reiner's son has some fantastic things going on with his bowing.... Genevieve Harrison Koster has SO much of her dad's bowing going on. It CAN be taught, and very specific things too.... and I don't think those father/son father/daughter things are all "intuiting" on the part of the kids... well, we COULD ask them!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/05/2014: 21:33:28
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
fiddlehangout.com="" z-index:="">↵
follow up thoughts:
There are those who swear that you have to learn and practice scales (and there is a bunch) – the more the better. But you have to practice them – and practice them, and then practice them some more – always practice them. They must be mastered if you are ever going to be a good flatpicker.
And they can become super proficient with those scales – playing them at lightning speeds, backwards and forwards. And there will be those who will say that everything they play sounds like another scale exercise – no melody, no style.
Then there is the “library of licks” club. Flatpickin Guitar magazine will bury you with licks each month. And there are hundreds or thousands more on YouTube who will offer 25 variations of the G run (like you couldn't come up with any on your own). And over the years you will have accumulated a gazillion licks you can chose from at any moment as you need them.
And they can become super proficient at the library of licks. And they can play a stream of licks one after the other, and there are some they can play the heck out of – perfectly and effortlessly. But there are those who will say the same licks get used in every break they play – you can tell when one ends and the next lick begins. And Lord help them if they lose their place – can they get back on track?
Then there is the hero syndrome. The folks who will meticulously pick apart every solo that someone like Tony Rice has ever played, and will spend endless hours studying every stroke he ever recorded. They want to be another Tony Rice because he is Mr. Bluegrass Guitar. The folks who insist that if you aren't on the same path, you'll never really be a flatpicker.
And they can play those breaks and do a good imitation, and when it comes to a few of the licks – they can nail it. But there are those who will say that they sound too much like they are trying to be something they aren't. And when it comes to playing songs or tunes that weren't recorded by that artist – the solos sound strained and out of place.
And then there are those that will approach the goal from this angle. They will listen to their favorite guitar players, try to pick up what they can from what they like. Try to make it fit what they are learning in a way that sounds good – and polish what they have learned. They will add to it when they discover something new that inspires them. They understand scales, and even practice them, but they also understand that if what they play sounds good/right it will be something based on the scales. And chances are – it will most likely be something they heard or saw in a video or live. If not exactly - it will be something similar to (if not the same as) some of the licks in Flatpicking Guitar Magazine or a Youtube video. And if they aren't – so what? If it sounds good – it sounds good. And they will always be picking up some stuff from all the folks that inspire them – all their guitar heroes like Tony Rice, Bryan Sutton, and any number of others, as they learn to play the songs/tunes they like.
And they will usually have used a combination of all the above. The danger is that they can get stuck in any of the same traps, or get complacent. But the nature of this method means they are having to learn the instrument as they figure out how to play what they hear. If they develop a good ear that becomes familiar with the style they are wanting to play they can learn to improvise without a direct reference point in scales, licks, or heroes, and be able to make it sound convincing – because they have a feel for what sounds right. This doesn't mean they don't use the other tools – just means they aren't focused on mastering one like some might be. They will still be looking for help – everywhere they can find it.
Yes, someone who determines to master skills of any of the tools can become to be musical too. They all have there place. But in every case you have to get beyond the confines of the tools to make what they play sound more musical.
But, don't tell me you can't be musical without mastering one of the tools first.
First of all, the library of basic bowing licks we're talking about is NOT all that huge.
Dave mentions 11 in his first post (including 2 smooth bowings at the end), then I add two more, Syncoshuffle and Bouncy Shuffle (which I then called Offset Nashville).
Also, it depends on what you mean by "tools"....
if intonation is a tool, you'd better master it, or people will call it NOISE.
If pulling decent tone is a tool, you'd better master it, or people will call it NOISE.
If playing in TIME is a tool... controlling the bow, is a tool, you'd better master it, or people will call it noise.
AND repetitive licks DO offer help in bow control... I'm finding this with paradiddles.... if you can't play them the same way three or four times in a row, well, somethings wrong, and the repetition will help you hone in on what is wrong. Bowing patterns can play that same role, and people who studiously avoid patterns deprive themselves of that tool for improving their timing.
Then.... there is the question of playing "in a style". I've encountered quite a few hippie musicians, both back in the day and recently in the parks of my town that don't play in any particular genre. Yeah, it's music... SOMETIMES. It can be kind of hard to jam with them, even if they can improvise, because they are so into being unique and individual.
Bluegrass in contrast is a style... if you don't have a repertoire of grassy licks, you won't sound like Bluegrass.
If a blueser doesn't have a repertoire of bluesy licks, he won't sound like a blues player.
And Old Time has some specifics too. It might be music without them, but it might not be very Old Time. I've heard Irish Trad musicians play Old Time tunes, and they play them well, and it's music, but "it ain't even Old Time"... to coin a phrase, O brother!!! They leave out anything remotely resembling a shuffle, and can't refrain from sticking in a roll or a grace note or two!
There's not any Round Peak banjo players in this town.... but a fair number of people have been learning banjo. Many of them are guitarists... and they play like guitarists, or perhaps without bunches of banjo players to learn from... they get pretty idiosyncratic. Interesting to listen to, but not much fun to play fiddle along with. In contrast, once a lady showed up from the Bay Area who had learned Round Peak style banjo in a class.... and she NAILED THE GROOVE!!! It was fun... I was GLAD she took the class.
Anyway.... I have heard fiddlers trying to play Old Time.... but the bowing is idiosyncratic to the point where they CAN'T NAIL THE GROOVE!
That was maybe what I was thinking of when I came up with "Anywhichway".... no wait- I didn't coin that-
Brad Maloney did!!!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/05/2014: 21:51:26
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
It was about 2007 it so when I watched J Morris play...now, several years later with possibly a better ear and eye for bowing ( though not much better, I'll admit!), lookin at a video of him playing I found real quick, almost looks something like a backwards saw shuffle or something...pogo probably knows a name for it, but seems something like the front end like a smooth shuffle and the back end the front end section of a saw shuffle, with smooth shuffle phrase endings...I might be wrong about exactly what it is, and I have no idea what Mr Morris would say about it because I didn't feel like bothering him the one time I was so priviledged as to see him play, but there is some groove running true along here of some kind...plus he gets very clever with noting, etc. if you hear much of his you see it's very complex stuff...I think he's gotta be one of the very best old time fiddlers in our time. It's a real shame there's not more of him out there for people to see and hear. Oops, forgot the link...lol. youtu.be/WldIaSFsrpg
Bowing-wise, it's actually not that complex:
1. Definitely some Nashville going on.
2. Lots of sawstroke
3. He does a lot of longer notes that are twice as long as the sawstroked notes... like the ending phrase.
3. He has a preference for upbowing... uses it most of the time... does end up doing "down-up" sawstroking occasionally, and doesn't seem nearly as comfortable doing it.
4. In a lot of ways his playing reminds me of Kenny Hall's, except he uses more Nashville, and Kenny didn't use it that I can remember.... which may not be correct.... I was a beginning fiddler at the time!
I really like his melodic version of the tune.... his tone.... not so much.
And I don't aspire to bow like him.
Most of what I like in his playing, you've GOT already, Peggy!
You just need to get it up to speed.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/05/2014: 22:42:20
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Well.... it's a little blunt, yeah.
I'm just getting a little tired of this "Quantum mechanics bowing" and "my head hurts" stuff, which is making it sound like bowing analysis is overcomplicating things.
It ain't rocket science....it's counting to EIGHT.
And only counting to THREE for the slurs.
It's not because you can't..... If math challenged ME can do it, so can ALL of you.
It's 'cause you don't WANT to.
And WHY that is, I haven't figured out yet.
....
The reasons for this have been explained now by lots of different members in lots of different ways in lots of different threads over the years.
So if you haven't figured it out, it can't be because members with different opinions are reluctant to share them.
--OTJ
Well.... maybe I have figured it out. It's basically (and quite ironically) using a computer and the Internet to say "My bowing approach is more Luddite than thine! (and therefore Old Timey-er!)"
As far as I'm concerned, Old Timey IS
as Old Timey SOUNDS.
And a certain someone thought my bowing sounded just fine round about 2007....
fiddlehangout.com/song/415#comments
and if that august someone couldn't tell the difference...
WHAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM????
It's sort of like blindfold tests where the Strad loses to a new made violin, or a French wine loses to a California one.
The problem is in the mind... it has nothing to do with reality.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/05/2014: 22:52:45
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
youtu.be/Z8anWW7NfGU
Thanks Peggy!!
I always used to HATE Chinese Breakdown until I heard this... it sounds like it was written around Syncoshuffle, and then people strip it out, and there isn't much left.
If I had a dollar for every Syncoshuffle used in this tune... WOW!!!!!
(Oh NO..... I'm actually having crazy thoughts about COUNTING them!!!!
)
I'm sorely tempted to rename it the Syncoshuffle Breakdown!
It's late.... I should either take my fiddle downstairs and play some, or hit the hay....
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/06/2014: 03:25:14
Me too...Chinese a Breakdown drove me crazy but this guy just makes it work!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/06/2014: 03:33:40
Question for Pogo or anyone else who has an answer: if John Morris, in the Soldier's Joy link a few posts above...if he doesn't have some elusive, elaborate bowing schemes indiscernible to me ( pogo saying it doesn't actually look too complicated) ...what is it about his playing...what is he doing that makes him so great? What is that element of great fiddlng he has mastered...why does his fiddling just slam ya in the guts ( meant in a good way...lol...lack of words) like it does? How do fiddlers do that? I really think he's about the best I've ever heard, but I can't tell ya why... This is the sound I hear echoing in my soul--- this is what I wanted when I decided to quit messin around and learn to fiddle--- this is the sound, to me, of the old timers who lived a couple of generations back... It's surprising to me to hear a contemporary person of our time who has captured, held true, and carried this sound.
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 01/06/2014 03:39:20
ChickenMan - Posted - 01/06/2014: 06:05:21
In the Soldier's Joy I see lots of phrases played L L S S S S which is something I noticed in how he plays Hop Light Ladies from a video posted here a couple of years ago. I really like his playing too, Peggy.
Edit - it looks like almost entirely LLSSSS. I don't know if I'd call him an up bower since he seems to be comfortable with EITHER stroke.
That statement is my observation/opinion; readers' opinions may differ.
Edited by - ChickenMan on 01/06/2014 06:22:58
fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 01/06/2014: 06:26:47
HangOut threads are only allowed 30 pages. By then everything has been said and its time to go home and get some sleep. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Or play some tunes !
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 01/06/2014: 07:29:54
Yeah. But somebody keeps bumping this thread, bj most likely I'm guessing (though haven't heard nor seen hide, fiddle, nor hair of her in long time....)
tonyelder - Posted - 01/06/2014: 07:33:52
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Well.... it's a little blunt, yeah.
I'm just getting a little tired of this "Quantum mechanics bowing" and "my head hurts" stuff, which is making it sound like bowing analysis is overcomplicating things.
It ain't rocket science....it's counting to EIGHT.
And only counting to THREE for the slurs.
It's not because you can't..... If math challenged ME can do it, so can ALL of you.
It's 'cause you don't WANT to.
And WHY that is, I haven't figured out yet.
....
The reasons for this have been explained now by lots of different members in lots of different ways in lots of different threads over the years.
So if you haven't figured it out, it can't be because members with different opinions are reluctant to share them.
--OTJ
Well.... maybe I have figured it out. It's basically (and quite ironically) using a computer and the Internet to say "My bowing approach is more Luddite than thine! (and therefore Old Timey-er!)"
As far as I'm concerned, Old Timey IS
as Old Timey SOUNDS.
And a certain someone thought my bowing sounded just fine round about 2007....
fiddlehangout.com/song/415#comments
and if that august someone couldn't tell the difference...
WHAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM????
It's sort of like blindfold tests where the Strad loses to a new made violin, or a French wine loses to a California one.
The problem is in the mind... it has nothing to do with reality.
You are misrepresenting the replies sent in response to your insistance that learning bowing patterns is some how traditional because it is something they all taught back then. I don't think anyone has claimed that they are more "old timey" than you are - based soley on the fact that they didn't teach or talk about bowing patterns back then. The replies are only intended to inform you that it wasn't done back then - it didn't have the importance that you ascribe to it - so you can't claim it is somehow more traditional and therefore necessary. Nor is anyone resisting the idea of learning bowing patterns as an act of defiance against progress.
"As far as I'm concerned, Old Timey IS as Old Timey SOUNDS."
And essentially - that is all I've ever said. "If it sounds good, it is good!"
OK. You have someone who likes your fiddling. I've told you myself that your version of Ducks on the Millpond is about the best I've heard. That doesn't mean I like everything you've recorded - but I don't like everything that Bruce Molsky has recorded. I don't like everything Tony Elder does either. None of that should come as a surprise. But I'm not calling your skills and talent into question. I'm calling your insistence on using bowing patterns "or you will never....." that is what I call into question.
Shall I go and find the comment I received from someone when the listened to me playing along with the TJ video - where they said "you nailed it". should everyone agree with him? Then I must be pretty good too!
Those kinds of comments should mean something to us - personally - when we receive them - it is gratifying - but it doesn't mean everyone is going to share in that opinion. Should I expect you to agree?
This is silliness Michael. Let's stop.
Edited by - tonyelder on 01/06/2014 07:47:50
pdfarrell - Posted - 01/06/2014: 08:38:32
I hope Fiddlepogo never stops. Go another 30 pages!
tonyelder - Posted - 01/06/2014: 08:45:37
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
I hope Fiddlepogo never stops. Go another 30 pages!
He could probably do that in a single post! 
(just kidding)
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/06/2014: 09:10:32
This could go on for another 30 pages...I think it is interesting! Thanks to all participants...it's great to just hear all sides of this. I won't ever ignore it...the weather, I'm trying hard to ignore ( and the snow falling, which isn't supposed to be there according to the science and high tech gadgets--- I'm ignoring that our hill consists of about 4 inch thick lumpy ice that I have to almost kill myself getting down every hour it so to bust up the chickens' concrete--- I meant water--- surrounded by a steep ice rink that is a threat to life and limb for any person or chicken--- yeah, I don't see any of that; it's not there-- I see only bowing discussion. There's no arctic winter slapping us around here, there's only bowing discussion--- blinders on...bowing discussion, bowing thoughts--- that's all!!!! Omg how I miss our woodstove...my dishcloth was frozen to the kitchen sink...my shoestrings frozen so I couldn't get my boots off after chiseling chicken water--- but, but, but...there's only bowing...that's all there is!!! Keep talkin, you guys!!!
Pathfinder - Posted - 01/06/2014: 09:10:51
Maybe all this depends on your musical goals. Some people like to experiment with rhythms and some like melodies. And, perhaps taste. I enjoy the space between notes and get bored with too many notes or too much percussion, but that just one man talking.
There are videos I have watched over the past couple of days emphasizing bowing patterns. To me there is not that much difference between shuffles, it all sounds basically the same. However, I am sure the fiddler would say that it feels different.
There is also the additional/synergistic affect of others. I can get more into the improvisation of rhythm if someone is holding down/establishing the beat with a banjo or guitar.
My "jamming" consists of a cello, plucked and bowed bass, mandolin, and guitar. I love the space those other musicians provide. Lots of bowing patterns are options in that setting.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/06/2014: 11:23:48
Oh man... between thawings and other such fun activities today, I decided to do a youtube on banjo and then try playing along on fiddle... I'm obsessed these days with Fly Around, My Pretty Little Miss, it seems, so I chose that tune from oldtimejam.com. Anyway, when it got to the fiddle part, I waas doing ok and then tried to do synco shuffles at the end when on the B part I double up on the strings... well I messed up that synco shuffling, but figured Ipd put the video up anyhow... then realized it wasn't recording after all (changes in the ipad update... I never know if I am recording or not!), so I sat down and did it again, deciding to leave out eh synco shuffles near the end... but for whatever reason, my bowing, even though I was sticking pretty much to Nashville SHuffle... kept getting turned around. I kept somehow ending phrases so that I'd have to start new ones on the upbow... and even in Nashville SHuffle... that doesn't work for me... I had to panic and do little hops and skips with the bow to catch up the slack and get my N. Shuffle back on track... the lesson here to me personally... I gotta work on that bowing!!!! This is worse than usual, for some reason, today... how I'm getting all backwards... but it screams out that I need to work at this: here's the video... sorry the sun and snow were giving the camera snowblindness or something... I hit auto enhance on youtube, but it says it takes some time... maybe it'll get better, maybe not... here it is... youtu.be/gogDgc29QNk
DougD - Posted - 01/06/2014: 12:02:35
There's a recording of that tune on my music page here, if that would help. No "syncoshuffles" though.
ChickenMan - Posted - 01/06/2014: 12:07:42
OR maybe you're over thinking, as all this pattern talk can sometimes get in the way if the doing
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2014: 12:39:11
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Question for Pogo or anyone else who has an answer: if John Morris, in the Soldier's Joy link a few posts above...if he doesn't have some elusive, elaborate bowing schemes indiscernible to me ( pogo saying it doesn't actually look too complicated) ...what is it about his playing...what is he doing that makes him so great? What is that element of great fiddlng he has mastered...why does his fiddling just slam ya in the guts ( meant in a good way...lol...lack of words) like it does? How do fiddlers do that? I really think he's about the best I've ever heard, but I can't tell ya why... This is the sound I hear echoing in my soul--- this is what I wanted when I decided to quit messin around and learn to fiddle--- this is the sound, to me, of the old timers who lived a couple of generations back... It's surprising to me to hear a contemporary person of our time who has captured, held true, and carried this sound.
That's a tough question...
some of it may get into very individual stuff like childhood memories.... maybe Morris' fiddling reminds you of someone else's fiddling.... maybe of the very first fiddling you heard that you connected with in a positive way. There are a bunch of things that affect me that way. Yesterday in a parking lot, I saw a '59 Chevy coupe. We had a 59 Chevy wagon. Different color, different body style, but the distinctive taillights and fins brought back memories, and for some reason I REALLY wanted to look at the dashboard.... and there WAS this kind of strange thrill at seeing the contours of a dashboard that was SO familiar, and from SO far back in my life. I was 13 when we traded in that car. Anyway.... if I can get an emotional thrill out of seeing an old familar dashboard shape, why not music? For instance, when I hear a clock with Westminster chimes, I get that, because Grandma and Grandpa had one, and so that brings back lots of mostly good childhood memories.
Aside from that, there's control and phrasing. He has established enough control over the bow to get a phrasing that you like.
I mentioned that his fiddling reminded me of Kenny Hall's fiddling. Kenny Hall was blind, and was taught violin in a school for the blind. He bowed near the frog, and was an "anywhichway" player in the way I mostly think of it.... he followed the melody, and did not use ANY rhythmic patterns as embellishments. In one sense, his fiddling didn't appeal to me as a role model for my fiddling, BUT:
the man could PHRASE the notes in a way that conveyed emotion, and his playing conveyed a joy in playing Old Time music that was contagious.
Could this describe John Morris as well?
I didn't follow him as far as my bowing techniques (well, actually I do follow it on song tunes) but his playing was a reminder to me that phrasing and emotion HAS to be part of it, whether your approach is technically simple, or technically complicated, you have to get to the place where you can use phrasing to express emotion.
Now, there are different ways that bowing approaches could impact this.
For me, pattern bowing offers me a way of master bowing moves lick by lick, and cutting out "weak links" out of the bowing chain quickly and easily (because everything before and especially after the swapped out measure stays the same.) In this way, it gives me control of the bow, and then I can forget about bowing mechanics and focus on phrasing.
Now, until you master and get control over ANY bowing technique, you won't be able to really phrase with it. That's true whether a pattern approach is used or not. I have some patterns that I know how to play slowly.... they aren't off the back burner yet. I'm NOT going to try and play them in public.
Whether intuitively picking out comfortable patterns as I do on Old Time tunes, or intuitively finding "anywhichway" moves that work (as Kenny Hall did and as I do on song tunes) you have to have a bowing strategy you are confident with in order to make MUSIC, emotion conveying music out of it.
One aspect of phrasing is what is sometimes called "groove". When I first learned the single paradiddle on a single drum or practice pad, and was just focusing on the sticking order, it was amazing how boring it sounded. Once I starting to make it "swing", that is, put some phrasing on it, it sounded MUCH better, and once I used it in the context of a drum kit on multiple surfaces, it sounded SO cool!
A bowing pattern can go through all three of those phases too... with the equivalent of the last one being finding the place in the melody where the right well practiced pattern not only doesn't mangle the melody, but lifts it to a higher level.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2014: 12:46:55
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
In the Soldier's Joy I see lots of phrases played L L S S S S which is something I noticed in how he plays Hop Light Ladies from a video posted here a couple of years ago. I really like his playing too, Peggy.
Edit - it looks like almost entirely LLSSSS. I don't know if I'd call him an up bower since he seems to be comfortable with EITHER stroke.
That statement is my observation/opinion; readers' opinions may differ.
At first I was thinking he was a completely balanced "anywhichway" player, but then I noticed a phenomenon that was kind of the reverse of some anywhichway players.
Some fiddlers start on a downbow, and continue playing for a long time with typical downbowing like down-up sawstroke.... but then they hit a phrase which for them REQUIRES getting turned around.... often the very last phrase, since in a lot of fiddle tunes, you get three phrases with a very similar rhythm, then the ending phrase (like in Soldier's Joy) has a very different melodic structure and phrasing.
Anyway, John Morris seems to do the reverse... starts out with upbowing, then goes to downbowing when he has to at the end.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2014: 13:22:34
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
New question: new train of thought ( yes I'm wishy-washy!): to the non-patterned/shuffled bowers--- if you watch/ listen to the youtube I linked of John Morris playing above, soldier's Joy I think it was--- are you seeing a groove, if so, how are you seeing him do that? Now wondering if this whole bowing thing is just how individuals look at something. Like, I remember long discussions with our old friend who is a portrait artist-- he's even been featured on our educational tv...very good artist and we used to get the kids to bed...we'd get to talking about stuff very late--- but he would compare everything to color, and I'd compare everything to musical tone. But his big thing was that you set down colors on various backgrounds and get people to name the colors-- his pint being that it's not as obvious, or as " black and white," so to speak, as we think. It's very subjective, in lots of ways. So I'm wondering if different people can hear the same fiddling as different, well, strokes! Is it all just our perception?
Well, perception most certainly enters into it, sort of like that illustration of "vases or faces":
I think similar things happen with kids who are taught about Sant Claus before and after they get told the truth.
Also before and after ANOTHER little enlightening talk, usually with parents!
What you are aware of or conscious of totally affects how you see things.
I first heard John Summers fiddling in about 1973 or 1974. At the time, all I could hear was a LOT of sawstroke. The last time I gave his recordings a listen, I had finally mastered Syncoshuffle, and lo and behold, John Summers OFTEN used it as an "ending lick".
Since it wasn't in my bowing "vocabulary" Syncoshuffle sailed right by me in 1974.... but not in 2011.
But since I had been trying to do sawstroke from the time I first started fiddling, I could definitely hear the sawstroke in John Summers' playing.
This perception thing especially affects people noticing beginning and ending licks for a very simple reason- they are used ONLY ONE TIME. If you don't recognize it within the couple of seconds it takes to play it, it's TOO LATE, it's GONE! In contrast, whatever is the main lick of the tune is much more noticeable.... the bow is "saying the same thing" over and over again... how could you NOT miss it??? BUT, the most common patterns used for the body of the tune are sawstroke and Nashville Shuffle, so they are going to get noticed anyway.
Another thing that gets in the way of perceiving patterns:
Since Syncoshuffle, Smoothshuffle, and Sawshuffle all END the same way as Nashville, with two single strokes after a slur, if you follow any one of them up with Nashville, they will tend to blend it with and get mistaken for a Nashville.
Likewise, since they end in two single strokes, if the two single strokes are followed by sawstroke in the same directions, well, then they blend in with the sawstrokes.
Again, this tends to create a bias in favor of those who actually KNOW and USE the pattern to be able to recognize it.
And as ending licks, the final two strokes often get left off, so again, they get camouflaged that way.
Other things that affect perception of bowing.
Direction and length of stroke. The other fiddler in the first string band I took part in was an upbower who used REALLY short strokes.... and to this day, that's ALL I can say about his bowing.... completely indecipherable! Occasionally I see other fiddlers like that on YouTube, and it's NO USE.... I don't even TRY! Conversely Tommy Jarrell used a LOT of bow, and so that made his motions overall easier to read.... except his 2 note slurs were as long as most peoples 3 note slurs!!!
Abruptness vs. Smoothness of direction changes:
This is one of the reasons why I don't trust recordings for learning bowing, especially with really good fiddlers.
I saw Kenny Baker with Bill Monroe and the BG Boys in about 1975 in Santa Monica. His bowing "blew my mind"- my EYES saw that he was sawstroking, but my EARS told me he was longbowing- the direction changes were THAT smooth, THAT feathered. Now, a lot of Old Time fiddlers have anything BUT smooth direction changes, but with some of the better fiddlers recorded in the 1920's.... I think there was some feathering going on.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2014: 13:34:36
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
I hope Fiddlepogo never stops. Go another 30 pages!
In a topic I enjoy and am fascinated with, I CAN go a LONG time. Can you tell I'm fascinated with fiddle bowing?
Conversely.... there are many topics where it's NO PROBLEM limiting myself to ONE POST, and some topics that I rarely if ever post on.
AND there is nothing like a good question or even an opposing statement to inspire, me, make me think about the topic some more and come up with NEW ANGLES... and in bowing threads, it's common to get good sincere questions like yours, and certainly there is NO SHORTAGE of opposing comments to inspire me!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2014: 13:41:42
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
OR maybe you're over thinking, as all this pattern talk can sometimes get in the way if the doing
Wnen it comes to the playing of it, you definitely have to find the "off switch".
When I'm playing I'm not thinking about what shuffles I'm using.... well maybe fleeting moments. I'm mostly thinking about:
1. How many times through should I play this?
2. Should I medley this, and with what tune?
3. If it's the last or only tune, should I tag it? Or just end with a double stop?
And actually, I gotta go play somewhere- BYE!!!
OTJunky - Posted - 01/06/2014: 16:22:39
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Question for Pogo or anyone else who has an answer: if John Morris, in the Soldier's Joy link a few posts above...if he doesn't have some elusive, elaborate bowing schemes indiscernible to me ( pogo saying it doesn't actually look too complicated) ...what is it about his playing...what is he doing that makes him so great? What is that element of great fiddlng he has mastered...why does his fiddling just slam ya in the guts ( meant in a good way...lol...lack of words) like it does? How do fiddlers do that? I really think he's about the best I've ever heard, but I can't tell ya why... This is the sound I hear echoing in my soul--- this is what I wanted when I decided to quit messin around and learn to fiddle--- this is the sound, to me, of the old timers who lived a couple of generations back... It's surprising to me to hear a contemporary person of our time who has captured, held true, and carried this sound.
My take on this is that there's more to fiddling than changes in bow direction.
There is note choice. No two fiddlers play the exactly the notes on the same fiddle tune.
There are also choices about which notes to emphasize. Some notes are played louder than other notes - using more bow pressure and speed. That's why even a Nashville Shuffle can have a different sound when played by two different fiddlers.
Both these things are entertwined with the bowing. So the notes you decide to use can be influenced by the bowing you want to use and vice versa; The notes you want to emphasize can be influenced by the bowing you want to use and vice versa. The notes you decide to use can be influenced by where you want to put emphasis in the tune and vice versa.
Yet another dimension to fiddling has to do with when and where you want to put slides (hit the minor third and slide up to the major third) and/or primes (open string against the same note stopped on the next lower string).
I think a master fiddler like John Morris has learned to integrate all these different things (note choice, emphasis, slides, unisons, and bowing) in the way the old time fiddlers before him did it and so has developed an old time fiddling style of his own that resonates with the fiddling tradition where he learned.
Much of my objection to these never ending bowing threads is that, IMO, they focus obsessively on just one aspect of old time fiddling; and don't include much about the interplay between note choice; note emphasis, and the usual fiddling idioms like slides and unisons that are in my experience such essential parts of the Southern U.S. old time fiddling traditions.
I doubt that even John Morris can explain to you in words how he fiddles. I think that if you want to play like him the only way to do it is to listen to him play, watch him play, and try to make the sounds he makes until you can. I'm pretty sure that's how he learned to do it.
Of course, you'll never play exactly like him because invariably you'll have different opinions about how a tune should be played and different physical abilities than he has. But probably you'll get to a point where you've incorporated enough of his sound that you like your own fiddling - as well or better than you like his - and there's not much to be had beyond that...
--OTJ (FHO Luddite in residence)
Edited by - OTJunky on 01/06/2014 16:24:01
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