fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/05/2013:  13:39:38

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



I played my fiddle a liitlle bit today, and now I'm confused: it's already established that I'm a down bower...and a pattern bower (Nashville Shuffle just comes automatically), but I was wondering today if the stuff that happens in between the shuffles, but has to feel it's going in the right direction, yet seems to be indecipherable stitches to tie the shuffles and right-feeling endings/ beginnings together....if that other stuff isn't Anywhichways! I was trying to get something interesting to come out of Old Joe Clark for the Feb Virtual Fifdle Festival, after having not played for a pretty long time. I was trying to deliberately work in some stuff but came up with ????? Between the shuffles!

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If it's repeatable, and has a groove when you do it,  give it a name if you want- it's a pattern.  If it just makes that tune melody work, I'd say it's anywhichway with a slant towards downbowing... IF you come out in the right direction for your next desired downbowing lick.

I do "Wind That Shakes the Barley" in an Old Time style... but none of my pre-existing patterns fit it... so I had to come up with a custom bowing for it.

Who knows, maybe I'll find another tune I can bow that way, maybe not.

The more patterns you know, the less you have to DO that,

And you'll find you have fewer tunes with "problem parts"... you can get tunes playable REALLY QUICKLY instead of having to labor over them for weeks or months.... at least in terms of the bowing.  Reinventing the wheel takes TIME that I'd rather not spend.

Hey... I'm right handed.  On most stringed instruments, the left hand is the challenge... because it's slower and weaker.

For a long time, fiddle flipped that around... it's challenging learning to control something as long as a bow.  Add the question of how to bow it into the mix, and it REALLY made the right hand challenging.

Now, with so many well practiced patterns to draw on in Old Time, it's back to the left hand being the challenge.... or maybe the MEMORY being the challenge.  For instance... that tune we did last summer.... Old Sow somethingorother???

I could play it, I could bow it immediately, I recorded it, but I sure couldn't start it off now!!!!

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 02/05/2013 13:53:11

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/05/2013:  17:27:10

I know, though, I do get tripped up more than I'd like...have to do some quick thinking on my feet to get going ack in the right direction...which, to me, sounds like sloppy bowing. It's just so confusing to try something besides Nahville Shuffle and make it feel as natural. I go back and forth with it,,.lol...ain't that what bowing is all about?

IdleHands - Posted - 02/06/2013:  06:11:37

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Well I don't know the answers, being very new at fiddling, and self-taught to boot. But I know when I'm going the right way, and there is a wrong way I either avoid or figure a way out of if it gets to that,,,so I know for sure I'm a directional bower,,,dwn bowing. I know for sure I'm a pattern bower, Nashville shuffling my way through everything...yet, I've always tried to describe what happens between shuffle patterns...I've always thought of it like jumping in and out of a kid's ongoing jump rope...now, I'm wondering, what exactly happens when I jump outta that shuffle...before I jump back in again???? And I really don't know.

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See, if you practice that "wrong way" it will cease to feel wrong, and in the future you will have one less phrase that feels wrong backwards.  You have just become better at that point.

IdleHands - Posted - 02/06/2013:  06:15:02

I would suggest taking patterns that others have worked out and also playing them backwards, and also practicing patterns than start and end on the same direction, those can be played against their "backwards" counterpoint seamlessly. Nashville shuffle is just two micropatterns that are opposites, played back to back. Maybe that backwards part is why some seem to believe the most common pattern in OT is "overplayed", a most curious viewpoint.

Edited by - IdleHands on 02/06/2013 06:16:11

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/06/2013:  11:39:28

Here is an example of some pretty sloppy bowing... lol... I never really practiced Old Joe Clark, never played it, but since it was the VFF tune this month I decided I've heard it enough billions of times to just play it a few times through and then record... wrong... I tried yesterday when I had more time and the result was so bad I deleted it... today I found myself alone in the house with a few minutes before we pull the pork roast... yum... smells good... but anyway I sat down and tried again... this is take two today... all the time I had... very sloppy bowing.  You can see I'm geared toward Nashville Shuffle, just naturally... for the A part I almost had the Nashville Shuffle running into ending or beginning licks, but kept getting a little tripped up... not real bad, but enough to be sloppy, then on the B part, especially the part where the words go... OLD JOE CLARK... I was completely clueless as to what to do with my bow... the sawing of that does not feel right to me... then I had trouble recuperating from it... I noticed the tendency to do ridiculously quick shuffles between, which didn't work out either... to me... a good example of a tune damaged by sloppy bowing...  I needed my Nashville Shuffles to fit better with ending licks... I needed somewhere, some direction for the B part... just sloppy youtu.be/6DVXxxQec7Q

GeeDubya - Posted - 02/06/2013:  12:16:13

Here's a bowing discussion by Kentucky fiddler Roger Cooper on advice he received from the great Buddy Thomas [excerpted from the liner notes of Cooper's album, Going Back to Old Kentucky]. Sorta supports Idle's comments above on both-ways practice of <gasp!> patterns.

• 
  

  
  Sometimes in a tune you’ll get to a certain part where you’ll realize your bow is in an awkward place for you.  In order to get the tune to come out, you’ll have to bow backwards for a ways until you get to another spot where the bow will turn back the right way for you.  A lot of fiddlers will stop and restart the bow when they get to one of those places, to keep the bow movement going forward all the time, but Buddy always said that you had to learn how to keep that bow going when it turns over for you and you find yourself going backwards.  Learn to play it that way because there’ll be many times you’ll have to play coming and going both.  I found what Buddy told me to be true many times, although it’s a little awkward until you get used to it. 

  
  

dsreiner - Posted - 02/06/2013:  12:55:19

quote:

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Originally posted by GeeDubya

Here's a bowing discussion by Kentucky fiddler Roger Cooper on advice he received from the great Buddy Thomas [excerpted from the liner notes of Cooper's album, Going Back to Old Kentucky]. Sorta supports Idle's comments above on both-ways practice of patterns.

• 
  

  
  Sometimes in a tune you’ll get to a certain part where you’ll realize your bow is in an awkward place for you.  In order to get the tune to come out, you’ll have to bow backwards for a ways until you get to another spot where the bow will turn back the right way for you.  A lot of fiddlers will stop and restart the bow when they get to one of those places, to keep the bow movement going forward all the time, but Buddy always said that you had to learn how to keep that bow going when it turns over for you and you find yourself going backwards.  Learn to play it that way because there’ll be many times you’ll have to play coming and going both.  I found what Buddy told me to be true many times, although it’s a little awkward until you get used to it. 

  
  

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One technique that I find helpful is to be able to continue any upbow or downbow over some number of notes until I want to change direction.  This may include string changes and pulsed accents.  It might be to put in an accent, to cope with an awkward spot, or just to smooth out a tune (more useful in bluegrass, swing, and Irish than in oldtime).  Often I accent the very last note before the bow direction change.

I view this as a bowing pattern, but not one that presupposes a directional preference.

BTW, I'm very much a fan of Buddy Thomas, and transcribed his versions of Martha Campbell and Brown Button Shoes in Oldtime Fiddling Across America.  In the latter tune, Buddy often kept his bow going across measure boundaries (to my ear).

Dave

IdleHands - Posted - 02/06/2013:  13:02:46

quote:

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Originally posted by dsreiner

One technique that I find helpful is to be able to continue any upbow or downbow over some number of notes until I want to change direction.  This may include string changes and pulsed accents.  It might be to put in an accent, to cope with an awkward spot, or just to smooth out a tune (more useful in bluegrass, swing, and Irish than in oldtime).  Often I accent the very last note before the bow direction change.

I view this as a bowing pattern, but not one that presupposes a directional preference.

 

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What do you call that pattern, "the really really long slur of randomly varying size according to the situation" pattern ?

But seriously.  I do that too.  Sometimes a whole half a tune one one bow stroke.  Gets your control up like the bejeezers.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/06/2013:  14:44:47

But...there really is a backwards...

GeeDubya - Posted - 02/06/2013:  14:49:10

Good points & comments, Dave.  Martin Hayes once demonstrated an exercise at playing out a tune without changing bow directions until you ran out of bow then heading back the other way, forcing you to make all the timing and rhythm come from your left hand.  The point being you should be flexible in BOTH hands to accommodate whatever demands the tune makes of you.

IdleHands - Posted - 02/06/2013:  15:16:34

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



But...there really is a backwards...

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Only if it always feels awkwards.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/06/2013:  15:41:28

...but the goal is to get comfortable backwards so you can easily get to where you're going frontwards again...sounds like hs advice to play backwards could be as a stitch in time to get back to your normal direction....i.e., backwards vs.the right way fr you...is he saying there really are down bowers and upbowers, and whichever you are, you should be able to skip over awkward places by easily traversing in the wrong way according to your comfortable direction?

IdleHands - Posted - 02/06/2013:  15:52:27

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



...but the goal is to get comfortable backwards so you can easily get to where you're going frontwards again...sounds like hs advice to play backwards could be as a stitch in time to get back to your normal direction....i.e., backwards vs.the right way fr you...is he saying there really are down bowers and upbowers, and whichever you are, you should be able to skip over awkward places by easily traversing in the wrong way according to your comfortable direction?

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I think its more than that.  If you really get comfortable playing backwards, you dont need to rush to get back to anything, you're already home free.  That's apparent.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/06/2013:  17:25:18

Ok, but if the natural concepts of bowing direction ddnt universally exist, he wouldn't have had this advice to share...who was he talking to?

Dave S - Posted - 02/06/2013:  20:28:47

> If you really get comfortable playing backwards, you dont need to rush to get back to anything, you're already home free.

Getting comfortable with both is what I have been trying to do for the last couple of years. I am trying to learn Texas style and want to be comfortable with either direction. Slow going, but then everything is slow-going for me with this hellish instrument.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2013:  03:51:50

Lol...you said it better than I could, Dave...this ain't easy for anybody, no matter which direction we are trying to go or what we're trying to play!!!

IdleHands - Posted - 02/07/2013:  06:02:35

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Ok, but if the natural concepts of bowing direction ddnt universally exist, he wouldn't have had this advice to share...who was he talking to?

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Well there are two different directions tis true, but one need NOT be more difficult than another.  I posit that feeling turned around is just because you're playing a serious of notes that feels unfamiliar in that direction, its not really more difficult, its just new.  It shouldnt be avoided with patterny but embraced as the thing you should practice most.

tonyelder - Posted - 02/07/2013:  12:22:52

#1. When I hear a tune I really like, that's I want to learn – I’m not concerned about the source.  It’s more about the way that particular version appeals to me.

#2. I will do my best to learn to play that version of the tune with focused attention to that interpretation of the melody and rhythm.  I don't want to be obsessed with playing every phrase - note for note - or copying every bow stroke or pattern exactly. That may end up being what happens. But for me, it’s more about learning how to give an honest effort towards playing the tune with the same feel and “grove” that attracted me to the tune in the first place. Is that old time, or traditional? The tune is, but the way I play it will always be me regardless of how I try to make it something else. So, call it what you like, I’m ok with that.

#3. I will have usually settled on a fairly consistent way of playing a tune (bowing , etc) when I’ve learned to play the tune. But I aiming at a place where I play the tune with a level of confidence that allows me to play variations of the melody  - maybe even the rhythm - without losing the essence of the tune – to keep it interesting. That may mean the bowing will vary with the variations. I don't want my bowing to dictate what that is.  I want to “Teach my hands to play what I hear in my head.” (J Hartford)

#4. I’d want to know my instrument well enough to recover when I find myself in “unfamiliar territory” – doesn’t matter how I got there. Know the instrument and know the tune.

The better I know all these things, the less likely there will be a train wreck.

I really don’t see any benefit from a practice routine that includes playing tunes backwards (bowing). For me -  I would consider that a waste of my time. I don't think it would be that much different from a practice routine that would include working on bowing patterns separately from learning tunes.

I understand the logic of both, and I won’t say either is foolishness. For others – it’s probably going to make them great - greater than me! But neither is my idea of a productive use of my time. I tend to avoid frustrations when I can. Lazy?  Ok, but then this is not a “business” for me, it's one of my attempts to make my life more interesting and fun.

I will learn the tunes, and then keep on learning the tunes. I don’t think I will ever finish learning the tunes. I’ll always be hearing stuff I didn’t hear before. I do want to learn how to listen closely to every tune, every time I hear it - and REMEMBER what I hear. If I can’t figure a way to bow something  so that it pleases my ear –  I will ask for help. And I will usually find it. And I figure I’m going to practice playing it wrong (backward) – at least until I figure out what is right (forward) for me, when I play it - whether I want to avoid it or not. That’s enough.

Anyway – this, along with the other, may be getting somewhere close to 4 cents by now.

 

Edited by - tonyelder on 02/07/2013 12:33:47

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2013:  12:42:15

Yes, Tony...exactly! And what will work for some just will not work for everybody. Practicing backwards might be a great thing, but I barely get time to try to play the thing forwards!

IdleHands - Posted - 02/07/2013:  13:02:21

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Yes, Tony...exactly! And what will work for some just will not work for everybody. Practicing backwards might be a great thing, but I barely get time to try to play the thing forwards!

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I believe you would see greater improvement with the little time you do have practicing what seems the hardest.  Practicing the hardest things yields the quickest results.

tonyelder - Posted - 02/07/2013:  13:22:31

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Yes, Tony...exactly! And what will work for some just will not work for everybody. Practicing backwards might be a great thing, but I barely get time to try to play the thing forwards!

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I believe you would see greater improvement with the little time you do have practicing what seems the hardest.  Practicing the hardest things yields the quickest results.

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Yeap. Certainly agree with you there!

Most of my time is spent working on new stuff, unfamiliar stuff, or problem stuff. Usually limit my time with any one thing to about 15 - 20 minutes. Then, move on to the next... I'll come back later.

I only play the "easy" tunes when I haven't played them in a while, or I heard something or thought of something that I think would be good to add.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/07/2013:  14:34:36

Would love to see YouTubes linked when people see bowing forwards/ backwards/ patterned/ free style ( anywhichway)... That sure would make any discussion easier.

IdleHands - Posted - 02/07/2013:  14:45:11

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Would love to see YouTubes linked when people see bowing forwards/ backwards/ patterned/ free style ( anywhichway)... That sure would make any discussion easier.

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Im sure they are out there. Im just not going to be searching for them.  If you really want to erect a barrier in your mind that backward proficiency is too elusive/impractical/impossible/nonexistant to pursue, then by all means, live in the prison of your own mind.

tonyelder - Posted - 02/07/2013:  15:12:21

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Would love to see YouTubes linked when people see bowing forwards/ backwards/ patterned/ free style ( anywhichway)... That sure would make any discussion easier.

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Im sure they are out there. Im just not going to be searching for them.  If you really want to erect a barrier in your mind that backward proficiency is too elusive/impractical/impossible/nonexistant to pursue, then by all means, live in the prison of your own mind.

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Prison?  ...really?  Motivation through fear and intimidation?  Surely, you aren't trying to use tactics like "think and do like me if you ever have any hope of...."? 

...in defense of Peggy (and others that might find themselves leaning in a certain direction contrary to others), prison is a place where a person is held against their will.  They cannot leave. 

And as I understand it, this place where Peggy is at right now - is a place that she searched for and has chosen for herself. And she knows that she is free to walk away from it at any time she chooses. I think that is a healthy thing. I might not want to be there, but what is that to her?

I do agree, there is no point in trying to make a point using YouTube videos. What would be the point? 

Edited by - tonyelder on 02/07/2013 15:15:00

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/07/2013:  17:56:58

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Yes, Tony...exactly! And what will work for some just will not work for everybody. Practicing backwards might be a great thing, but I barely get time to try to play the thing forwards!

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I believe you would see greater improvement with the little time you do have practicing what seems the hardest.  Practicing the hardest things yields the quickest results.

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Yeah, up to a point that's a good policy... except it needs to be the hardest tunes that you actually LIKE.  There are plenty of really hard tunes out there that seem to have been designed just to be difficult and impressive in a flashy kind of way, but there's nothing to them that makes them stick in my mind and want to play them.  Trying to play THOSE would just about evaporate any desire I had to fiddle.

The two types of difficult tunes that I like to practice are:

1. Tunes with a lot of pinky work on the left hand combined with the middle and ring fingers... gotta get those three fingers independent and working on something like the same level as the index.

2. Hornpipes, especially those with quite a bit of bowrocking.  They have so many string changes that it tightens up my string changes, and makes all the other string changes in the rest of the practice session more precise and efficient.

But bowing backwards... well, actually today I tried sawstroking Durang's Hornpipe backwards. 

THAT might be doable, and might work as an exercise that would actually give me more facility at bowing backwards in Irish tunes.

But to try and bow EVERYTHING backwards??? Naw, ain't gonna happen!!!

IdleHands - Posted - 02/08/2013:  06:19:21

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by IdleHands

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



Yes, Tony...exactly! And what will work for some just will not work for everybody. Practicing backwards might be a great thing, but I barely get time to try to play the thing forwards!

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I believe you would see greater improvement with the little time you do have practicing what seems the hardest.  Practicing the hardest things yields the quickest results.

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Yeah, up to a point that's a good policy... except it needs to be the hardest tunes that you actually LIKE.  There are plenty of really hard tunes out there that seem to have been designed just to be difficult and impressive in a flashy kind of way, but there's nothing to them that makes them stick in my mind and want to play them.  Trying to play THOSE would just about evaporate any desire I had to fiddle.

The two types of difficult tunes that I like to practice are:

1. Tunes with a lot of pinky work on the left hand combined with the middle and ring fingers... gotta get those three fingers independent and working on something like the same level as the index.

2. Hornpipes, especially those with quite a bit of bowrocking.  They have so many string changes that it tightens up my string changes, and makes all the other string changes in the rest of the practice session more precise and efficient.

But bowing backwards... well, actually today I tried sawstroking Durang's Hornpipe backwards. 

THAT might be doable, and might work as an exercise that would actually give me more facility at bowing backwards in Irish tunes.

But to try and bow EVERYTHING backwards??? Naw, ain't gonna happen!!!

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Just do it.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/08/2013:  19:07:51

No.

Picking out and focusing on single goals for improvement of technique has worked very well for me over the years.

This is especially true of bowing technique.

Trying to do everything all at once is a GOOD recipe for mediocrity.

And... it occurred to me-

do you REALLY want "complete bowing mastery"???

Or do you just want to kid yourself that you have it.

Try going through the patterns at the beginning of the thread.

If they are hard to do when you are deliberately trying to do them,

don't think you'll just spontaneously do them in a tune.

And if you can't do them, backwards and forwards, then you've proved that you

DON'T have "complete bowing mastery".  Because "complete bowing mastery" implies mastery of ALL bowing techniques, EVERYWHERE!!!

Now ME, I KNOW I don't have complete bowing mastery- because I can only do some of them, and those forwards (downbowing).  But most of the ones I DO know, I have enough mastery (or control) of, so that I can PHRASE them.

To me, that's really the ultimate goal- every technique you learn and use has to be mastered to the point of making them sound musical by phrasing them.   I would rather know a very small subset of the bowing techniques available, and have mastery over THOSE, than knowing a gazillion techniques that are only barely under control.

tonyelder - Posted - 02/09/2013:  00:29:26

This is what moves me / inspires me / makes me want to play. It don't always come from dead guys.

 youtube.com/watch?v=sn624-RyvP0

...and when I hear a tune I like this  - I want to pick something up and learn it - try to make that sound. I don't care who it is or how old they are.

These folks are great - I have all of their music. And it's all good.

youtube.com/watch?v=sn624-RyvP0 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/09/2013:  04:06:41

I don't know how in the world that lady dances so good and plays the guitar at the same time!!!!!!!

OTJunky - Posted - 02/09/2013:  04:29:09

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



I don't know how in the world that lady dances so good and plays the guitar at the same time!!!!!!!

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Probably she practices CDM ("Complete Dancing Mastery")...

--OTJ

GeeDubya - Posted - 02/09/2013:  05:02:21

Good stuff, Tony. Thanks.  Nothing fancy, just durned fine dance music & perfectly in the groove. I did detect a few repeated bowing moves - but no patterns, I'm quite sure.

amwildman - Posted - 02/09/2013:  10:02:27

quote:

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Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy



I don't know how in the world that lady dances so good and plays the guitar at the same time!!!!!!!

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Probably she practices CDM ("Complete Dancing Mastery")...

--OTJ

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ROFLMAO!!!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/09/2013:  11:05:47

quote:

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Originally posted by GeeDubya

Good stuff, Tony. Thanks.  Nothing fancy, just durned fine dance music & perfectly in the groove. I did detect a few repeated bowing moves - but no patterns, I'm quite sure.

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Yes, good stuff, but as for no patterns,

well, I'm not so sure...

first of all, there's sawstroke... which at the VERY beginning of this thread, Dave Reiner lists as #1.

Although... I DO admit... I see him doing sawstroke BOTH DIRECTIONS.

And I'm pretty sure I see the seventh one Dave mentions:

"d u - d - u - d-1-2-2-2-1 (Swingy, jazzy across the beat)

[Florida Blues]"

When you start slurring across the beat like that, things get pretty wild... yeah, much of what he's doing would be very hard to describe with an eight note pattern...

but maybe you could with a sixteen note one!

However.... beyond the video:

To me "repeated bowing moves" = "patterns" in other words....

really, it sounds like to you, the word "pattern" is TAINTED, and so you'd prefer the word "repeated bowing move" as a euphemism for it.  And it's not just you... I meet so many revival Old Time fiddlers that say "pattern" as if it's a BAD THING!  Sort of like a 6 year old might say "asparagus" or "spinach".

I've been pondering as to WHY this is.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that many people get an aversion to tunes that they played when they were beginners.  For instance.... CRIPPLE CREEK!!!  To a lot of people it might as well be chopped liver!

Somehow I've been spared that.  I have GOOD MEMORIES of learning to play banjo, and Cripple Creek brings back those good memories.

Anyway, I digress.

Somehow, just like Cripple Creek and similar beginner tunes seem tainted, since so many people start on Nashville Shuffle, which is most definitely a pattern, instead of getting averse to just Nashville Shuffle (which I myself did get averse to for a LONG TIME) people get averse to the very idea of patterns.  Somehow, as you might guess, I never did.  To me, that's "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

Another way of putting it.... for so many wanting to play Old Time, patterns just don't seem "hip".

Kind of a similar thing happens with electric guitarists... playing lead guitar is COOL.... playing rhythm guitar is NOT.

Result... many guitarists don't do the time playing rhythm guitar and acquiring a sense of groove, with the result that they become sloppy lead guitarists.

Likewise, I think many fiddlers leave patterns prematurely, before they've developed a sense of groove... and for many, the result is sloppy fiddling.  True, some people don't need to acquire a sense of groove.. for some people, it seems innate.... but I find them to be the proverbial exception that proves the rule.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/09/2013:  11:15:28

Four words: Boil them cabbage down! And one pattern: Nashville Shuffle! I think that's about where I got stuck!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/09/2013:  11:19:40

I do love cabbage...my grandson plays shopping all the time and when he puts his toy cabbage in his cart he always calls it, "Granny-Groundhog's favorite". I also lve Nashville Shuffle, but have had so much trouble finding my way out of that particular shuffle/ vegetable patch. Well today later I plan to start another batch of saurkraut..maybe new bwing shuffles/ licks/ patterns, or at least ways to stitch N.Shuffes together neatly will bubble up from my crock!!! Maybe I can catch them and manage to hold onto them.

Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 02/09/2013 11:20:54

tonyelder - Posted - 02/09/2013:  13:23:35

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by GeeDubya

Good stuff, Tony. Thanks.  Nothing fancy, just durned fine dance music & perfectly in the groove. I did detect a few repeated bowing moves - but no patterns, I'm quite sure.

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Yes, good stuff, but as for no patterns,

well, I'm not so sure...

first of all, there's sawstroke... which at the VERY beginning of this thread, Dave Reiner lists as #1.

Although... I DO admit... I see him doing sawstroke BOTH DIRECTIONS.

 

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Listen to it.  Pretty good stuff - huh?  What's it "lacking"?

Would you call it bad stuff  - just cause he didn't use the backwards and forwards rolling synco shuffle on the downbeat?

If I had been there - I would have offered my heartfelt applause when they finished. Good stuff! I want to hear more....

 

 

Edited by - tonyelder on 02/09/2013 13:36:02

amwildman - Posted - 02/09/2013:  13:46:38

Won't do.  A back and forth bow stroke is not allowed under the tenets of the Complete Bowing Mastery umbrella.  We are no longer allowed to use single strokes, since our Complete Bowing Master, Idlehands has forbidden patterns, and single strokes are completely repeatable and are therefore now classified as "patterns".  Sorry Tony, but your video is now banned from the Complete Bowing Mastery Sanctum for all eternity.  What is otherwise excellent music is contaminated by single-stroke patterns.  The Tall Boys are forthwith banned for the period of one year, after which they my apply for reentry pending approval by the Master of all Bowing.  Please remove said link immediately, and all references to it.

Edited by - Mandogryl on 02/09/2013 13:52:32

Mandogryl - Posted - 02/09/2013:  13:53:40

quote:

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Originally posted by amwildman

Won't do.  A back and forth bow stroke is not allowed under the tenets of the Complete Bowing Mastery umbrella.  We are no longer allowed to use single strokes, since our Complete Bowing Master, Idlehands has forbidden patterns, and single strokes are completely repeatable and are therefore now classified as "patterns".  Sorry Tony, but your video is now banned from the Complete Bowing Mastery Sanctum for all eternity.  What is otherwise excellent music is contaminated by single-stroke patterns.  The Tall Boys are forthwith banned for the period of one year, after which they my apply for reentry pending approval by the Master of all Bowing.  Please remove said link immediately, and all references to it.

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 Surely you are joking, I hope.

tonyelder - Posted - 02/09/2013:  14:06:49

I hear rhythmic patterns. And I would learn / figure out a "repeatable pattern of bowing" that would be aimed at keeping the rhythmic pattern in the tune "intact" and familiar with each pass. And he is doing just that. But I wouldn't approach the "discovery" with preset patterns that I had already learned and then "make the tune fit" what I already know. Chances are - that there are a number of different tunes that use similar rhythmic patterns and can be bowed pretty much the same way. It wouldn't require learning to play a certain number of pre-determined generic patterns, just knowing those other tunes should be enough.

And, are some of those accents I see  ----- on the up stroke? 

Anyway - there is no doubt in my mind - David Bragger could tear this tune up real good, but this ain't bad!  ...certainly nothing to be ashamed of - imo!

ainly nothing I would be ash 

amwildman - Posted - 02/09/2013:  15:08:43

The sarcasm should literally be dripping off my previous post.  Of course that is fine playing.  Here.  Have a towel to wipe off your monitor.  I apologize for dripping all over.

tonyelder - Posted - 02/09/2013:  15:17:15

quote:

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Originally posted by amwildman

The sarcasm should literally be dripping off my previous post.  Of course that is fine playing.  Here.  Have a towel to wipe off your monitor.  I apologize for dripping all over.

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lol...

Keep your towel. I thought your post was funny.

Or ...maybe you were offering it to someone else?

amwildman - Posted - 02/09/2013:  15:37:27

Ya, I was offering it to Mando. 

Mandogryl - Posted - 02/09/2013:  15:45:00

I feel better. Long day of shoveling snow. my apologies.

amwildman - Posted - 02/09/2013:  16:30:32

No worries.  I'm moving Monday, so I'll be feeling that way myself pretty soon.  Except not as cold.

Edited by - amwildman on 02/09/2013 16:31:28

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/09/2013:  18:00:50

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Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by GeeDubya

Good stuff, Tony. Thanks.  Nothing fancy, just durned fine dance music & perfectly in the groove. I did detect a few repeated bowing moves - but no patterns, I'm quite sure.

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Yes, good stuff, but as for no patterns,

well, I'm not so sure...

first of all, there's sawstroke... which at the VERY beginning of this thread, Dave Reiner lists as #1.

Although... I DO admit... I see him doing sawstroke BOTH DIRECTIONS.

 

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Listen to it.  Pretty good stuff - huh?  What's it "lacking"?

Would you call it bad stuff  - just cause he didn't use the backwards and forwards rolling synco shuffle on the downbeat?

If I had been there - I would have offered my heartfelt applause when they finished. Good stuff! I want to hear more....

 

 

 

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I DID listen to it, and didn't I say "good stuff".... this IS a bowing thread after all- don't I get to give my take on what he was doing wit' da bow???

(This isn't the first time I've tried to be agreeable, and I get verbally pummeled by you as if I hadn't been!)

And yes, he does accent both directions.... but then, so do I-

when I'm doing, Nashville, Offset Nashville or the Berline Mystery Bowing- or anywhichway on waltzes, airs, and songs.   But I can STILL get stronger accents on a downbow!

(maybe it's my equipment.... all my bows are pretty cheap- $140 or less..... wanna buy me a nice Codabow and see if my upbow accents get stronger???)

Does anybody know where this tune was originally from??? Sounds like something from a 78 recording, but it's not on Juneberry.... Doug????  I'm guessing somewhere in the Deep South.  Just a guess.

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 02/09/2013 18:07:32

DougD - Posted - 02/09/2013:  18:21:56

"Johnson Gal" was recorded in the 1920's by the Leake County Revelers who were from Mississippi. Here it is:  youtube.com/watch?v=0arXT-IHl2I

Like Tony, I'm a Tallboys fan.

Edited by - DougD on 02/09/2013 18:24:45

tonyelder - Posted - 02/09/2013:  18:43:52

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

Listen to it.  Pretty good stuff - huh?  What's it "lacking"?

Would you call it bad stuff  - just cause he didn't use the backwards and forwards rolling synco shuffle on the downbeat?

If I had been there - I would have offered my heartfelt applause when they finished. Good stuff! I want to hear more....

 

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I DID listen to it, and didn't I say "good stuff".... this IS a bowing thread after all- don't I get to give my take on what he was doing wit' da bow???

(This isn't the first time I've tried to be agreeable, and I get verbally pummeled by you as if I hadn't been!)

I wasn't trying to pummel your pogo.  Sorry if it came across that way. Unintended.

You did say "good stuff" - and you can comment on what ever you like or don't like. I was only offering something I like, what appeals to me.

And yes, he does accent both directions.... but then, so do I-

Didn't say you don't - only saying that it is not a bad thing / it does sound good when done right. I don't like it just because he accented the up stroke or didn't use any certain known patterns - I like it because, he played it well and it sounds good.

when I'm doing, Nashville, Offset Nashville or the Berline Mystery Bowing- or anywhichway on waltzes, airs, and songs.   But I can STILL get stronger accents on a downbow!

(maybe it's my equipment.... all my bows are pretty cheap- $140 or less..... wanna buy me a nice Codabow and see if my upbow accents get stronger???)

No. I think it is the way you have chosen to play. And that's not to say your way of playing is bad / doesn't sound good. There is nothing "wrong" with the way you play. My point is only to say that there is more than one way to sound good. It's not ALWAYS downbow and it's not ALWAYS patterns that make a tune sound good. I submit that 90% is the fiddler.

Does anybody know where this tune was originally from??? Sounds like something from a 78 recording, but it's not on Juneberry.... Doug????  I'm guessing somewhere in the Deep South.  Just a guess.

Leake County Revelers-Johnson Gal 1927  

youtu.be/0arXT-IHl2I

 

Edited by - tonyelder on 02/09/2013 18:58:52

fiddlepogo - Posted - 02/09/2013:  20:35:59

You gotta remember, that while I use pattern downbowing when I play Old Time, I don't use it exclusively.  I AM very imprinted with it in that that's what I saw and heard in Earl Collins, Mel Durham, Tommy Jarrell, and my favorite younger Old Time fiddlers in the 1970's, Brian "Hawk" Hubbard and Dave Molk.  I think I also saw other Old Timers playing in a similar way back then, but I never did connect with the names.

Now, from what I have seen on YouTube, I've added Melvin Wine to that bunch... and Brad Leftwich seems to know more... much more.  I still believe pattern downbowing was an extremely common way for Old Timers to fiddle.... at least for the old timers that were still around in the '70s.

And I feel an obligation to stand up for that.

However, YouTube is also making me aware that there are other old timers (but maybe a generation later in many cases) that were upbowers, and even some "anywhichway".   I accept that, but I can't ignore what my eyes saw and my ears heard, that pattern downbowing was a major bowing approach in Old Time... quite possibly the dominant one in some areas.

Now, Leake County Revelers were from Mississippi.  I liked their recordings, but I never got to SEE them, and somehow never quite aspired to play like that, although it sounds really cool.

(Actually, that sound is appealing to me more now than it did in the '70s... hmmm.... should I give that tune a whirl??? So many tunes, so many styles, and so little time... and lately, so little energy!)

The Tallboys fiddler does a very convincing job of getting their sound... is he bowing it precisely the way the Leake County fiddler did???  We may never know.  It DOES sound good though, and in the absence of any videos of the Leake County Revelers, that may be the best that can be done.

One underlying thing going on here:  I got into fiddling in the '70s- many of the older fiddlers I saw were at Galax, and some of the younger ones at Fiddler's Grove. Virginia and North Carolina fiddlers were way more likely to show up at Galax.  I did hear J.P. Fraley, but his bowing style didn't appeal to me- not nearly rhythmic enough.

Now, there seems to be more emphasis on Kentucky fiddlers like Buddy Thomas.  Well, if he himself advocated getting turned around and being okay with it, I believe that, but that doesn't make him a universal standard for all Old Time fiddlers.... I didn't see Earl Collins, Mel Durham, Melvin Wine, or Tommy get turned around.

Hey, I guess I can't help it... I'm indelibly imprinted with the Old Time sound of the fiddlers I saw in the 1970s.

Oh... one last thing about the Tallboy's fiddler's bowing... he DOES sawstroke both ways... but to my ears and eyes, it looks and sounds very even....  DAH-DAH-DAH-DAH  not DAH-dah-DAH-dah.  Now, that certainly works for the groove he's getting, and he uses it only in short bursts.  But it wouldn't work for the way I use sawstroke... I want sawstroke to sound BOUNCY.... DAH-dah DAH-dah.  And this video doesn't convince me any more than Idle Hands arguments have that upbowing or anywhichway is a good way to get that kind of groove.

tonyelder - Posted - 02/10/2013:  00:20:08

I think everything you've said is exactly the way it should be for you - and I have nothing but respect for you and what you are able to do. People ought to feel encouraged to ask you about these things when they want to ask you. You have a lot of knowledge to share. I would encourage you to share it, and would be quick to defend your right. I just don't care to hear about absolutes or universal rules that apply to everyone. Your way doesn't work for everyone. But for some  - it does! 

No one should be made to feel that they have been cheated, left handicapped, or that they are now less capable because they have chosen a different path than someone else.

Bottom line: Good music is good.

Now - concerning WB Reid.... everyone has their own particular taste in music and what appeals to them, just as every fiddler has their own style of playing.

I don't take offense that you think WB's fiddling "sounds very even". That's OK. I remember how pattern bowers and down bowers often sound that same way - or even worse. To me - it's not a matter of patterns or directional bowing - it's all about what and how things get accented. To my ear - there are a great number of pattern players that sound predictable, clean, and sterile - and yes, even "even" - if you will. They are all around us. I would even dare say that - YOU  are that same way - when compared to some. But then again, I would also say that - compared to others (like me) - you are most certainly a rock star. So, what we have here? A bunch of opinions.

FWIW - I think WB Reid nailed it. The dance grove is there my friend. IMO - no one could do what he did any better. There may be others who can do it a differently, and what they do might be as good in a different way. But - imo - NO one could do it that way and do it any better. Better that most any I have heard. 

Is that opinion any less valid than - say - someone else's opinion?