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fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/07/2010: 14:34:03
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
[...]
Bowing, likewise, can be seen as having 2 variables.
You have only 2 directions.
You have the length of the first downstroke, x,
followed by the length of the first upstroke, y.
Here is the equation for six stroke per measure shuffle patterns:
x + y + x + y + x + y = 8 (SNE's or single note equivalents)
Nashville Shuffle =
2 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 1 = 8
[...]
That was a terrific elucidation of a fundamental principle of bowing.
I'll never be able to understand how any fiddler would not see the value in that kind of insight.
Good job, in spite of all the complaints that you got.
Thanks!!!
Although, I have to admit, I WAS in a rather "mad scientist" mood when I wrote it!
I actually wasn't all that good in algebra in high school, but a number of things
over the years have caused me to see that it does have practical applications.
One particular thing I did was tweaking variables in batch files (remember autoexec.bat and config.sys???)
to do all kinds of things back in the DOS days of computing,
and that reminded me of algebra.
And at some point I saw that all scientific experiments have mostly fixed conditions but are focusing just on the results of changing a single variable.
And although I'm not that good at math in general, I can count to 8, and I love rhythm and especially rhythmic fiddling so much that I am far more motivated to think of the math and algebra in fiddling
than I EVER was to think mathematically in high school (I almost TOTALLY avoided math in college).
However, I suspect for most others, algebra remains a turn-off...
they feel like I felt in my college years... avoid it whenever possible.
But the math IS there... you can ignore it, or you can see it, and tweak the variables.
BTW, I never get this way thinking about picking guitar. Flatpicking is relatively simple, because if you want a long note, you just pass over the string with your pick, and let the previous note ring.
So once you learn how to do that, you can do all these different rhythms without even thinking about them. You could analyze it, but there's not much help in it.
But on the fiddle, you can't just pass over a note without playing it, at least that's not done much in Old Time. And so, you add a single stroke, and suddenly you are upbowing instead of downbowing.
Or vice-versa. And those two approaches just don't give the same results to me. So for me, that's why it's good to give bowing so much thought- I think it sounds better when you do. At least MINE sounds better when I do!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 08/07/2010 14:47:25
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/07/2010: 18:23:12
Pogo... your wife and I must be long-lost sisters!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/07/2010: 22:50:32
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Pogo... your wife and I must be long-lost sisters!
You're not Swedish, are you???
BTW, that's something you hardly ever hear in Swedish fiddling-
lots of dignified tempos, hardly anything that could be construed as "frantic".
rcc - Posted - 08/08/2010: 01:01:01
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
I know people say Brad Leftwich does, but his youtubes I've seen also sound contrived and unnatural, to me... no insult to him, he plays a hundred times better than I do... but his bowing doesn't sound easy and musical to my ear... I'm just full of opinions, ain't I? I mean, I respect Brad Leftwich and everything, just not crazy about his playing from what I've seen.
[ ... ]
Anyway, when you talk about Brad Leftwich, it's kind of complex, because the impression I get is that:
1. He has a personal style (I suspect the backyard video of Mississippi Sawyers is his personal style, but I'm guessing)
2. He can and does emulate specific recordings to the nth degree.
3. He may also be able to demonstrate a bowing pattern, yet not use it in his fiddling.
I know a couple of patterns that I haven't yet found a musical use for, but someone else did, and I might someday, who knows!!! I wouldn't be surprised if Brad has some in this category too.
Or perhaps he can demonstrate them in an emulation of another persons playing, but it hasn't seeped into the rest of his fiddling. For years, I could only play the Offset Nashville pattern in the tune I recorded that I learned it from. Only in the last year has it started to seep into the rest of my playing.
4. Also, like a lot of fiddlers, you can see a fluctuation in the quality of the performances.
Brad is a professor in Bloomington, Indiana, and as such must be a rather busy man.
He may not get as much time to play as he would like, I'd almost be surprised if he did.
I noticed a similar fluctuation in recordings of Alan Jabbour- the Hollow Rock String Band recordings are pretty good, some demo playing in videos is pretty rough, then his recent recordings are VERY good. I think he retired,and now has more time to PLAY FIDDLE!!!
Regarding Brad. I think that everything he plays is in his personal style. Fiddle players as good as he is (and Brad is as good as they come) play the way they want to play. If he didn't like so much as a bowstroke or slide or note, he would play it differently.
Brad analyzes fiddling using patterns and he uses patterns as a teaching technique. I think he thinks it's a good way to "package" some aspects of bowng. And I've noticed that when he teaches workshops and at fiddle camps, he tends to select tunes where putting together a few bowing patterns will make the tune work.
But I don't think he plays using patterns the way that you do, Michael. I wish I could tell you what he does instead but I really don't know. I haven't spent enough time watching and listening to him play. But I *am* confident that he can play any lick he teaches and that he'll use it when he feels the tune calls for it.
Not everyone likes Brad's playing. His style is too precise and clean for a lot of people. But then again, I doubt you'll find any great OT fiddler that everyone likes. Different strokes for different folks, I believe the saying goes.
Edited by - rcc on 08/08/2010 01:03:00
rcc - Posted - 08/08/2010: 01:37:25
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Tommy Jarrell may have used a more complex version of multipattern bowing.
He did use Syncoshuffle (Leftwich's Tommy's Lick) and Nashville, and something that sure looked and sounded like Smoothshuffle.
I saw Tommy play several times, and his bowing motions were anything but random.
Certain motions were repeated fairly often to where I got the distinct sense they constituted a pattern or lick he could use at will, but since some of them were patterns I didn't "get", I can't read Jarrell's bowing with anywhere near the confidence I can read Melvin Wine's.
But the patterns I DO know he used, plus that predictability I saw leads me to believe he
was using a more complex version of what Melvin Wine was doing. (rcc disagrees...)
[...]
Occasionally I see/hear a fiddler that uses lots of sawstroke with another pattern instead of Nashville.
Earl Collins is in this category. I haven't figured out what his opening lick is, but it resembles Smoothshuffle. Tom Sauber might know.
[...]
Yep, I disagree
.
Tommy used just about every bowing lick I've ever seen or heard of. His bowing is most definitely not random. But calling his bowing multipattern is a gross oversimplification.
One of the challenges of learning his style (and one reason I believe so few people can truly play in his style) is that he uses so many licks, puts all of it together in such intricate ways, and is so very careful about matching bowing and melody. People also focus so much on his bowing that they underestimate what's going on with his left hand. He's got tunes that just don't work unless you figure out the stuff he's doing with his left hand too.
Actually, a number of his tunes are put together in a way that if you don't figure pretty much all of it out, the result just doesn't feel right. Like a swiss watch missing one gear. Still complex as heck but it doesn't really work.
June Apple is a great example. I worked on that tune for 4 or 5 years. The last bit that I figured out that made it work were some slides on a couple of key notes on the high part. Without them, those notes just sounded lame compared to the rest of tune -- stood out like a sore thumb -- which made the entire high part less than satisfying.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/08/2010: 04:45:54
Not trying to be critical here, to me, Leftwich's playing sounds "flat." Compared with some other fiddlers whose playing sounds wrinkled... and has more interest to me. I think he is amazing, how he pulled apart various licks and patterns and stuff and was able to pull it apart, show it to others, discern the use of these things in playing, and put it all back together again. I think I'm not too crazy about melody notes and bowing going together exactly... to me, one of the wonderful things about banjo (that, for me at least, can't happen in the same way in my guitar picking) is how the right hand pattern conflicts with, toys around with, the left hand noting. This, to me, makes the music bounce around and do all sorts of exciting little leaps and stuff. I have heard fiddlers do the same... the bowing has one mind set and the noting has another... they often conflict and then converge, etc., to make the music very exciting. To me, flat playing means the two hands are in perfect agreement, and this element of interest is gone. I'm sure this perfect agreement between hands is so exact and takes a lot of effort to achieve, I just personally don't like the sound... it's not what drew me to banjo and fiddle. The opposite is what got my interest.
Well as to Pogo's wife being my sister... I guess not... I don't know for sure what-all I am, I heard all kinds of explanations as to which side came from which countries, etc., but I don't think I ever heard one mention of Swedish! But I do like the tuning where you go to a P4th and the two P5s... which I've read somewhere on the net is Nordic tuning... so... that's as close to Swedish as I can get. I'll just leave it in saying I believe Pogo's wife must have good taste in fiddling!
rcc - Posted - 08/08/2010: 11:06:48
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Not trying to be critical here, to me, Leftwich's playing sounds "flat." Compared with some other fiddlers whose playing sounds wrinkled... and has more interest to me. I think he is amazing, how he pulled apart various licks and patterns and stuff and was able to pull it apart, show it to others, discern the use of these things in playing, and put it all back together again. I think I'm not too crazy about melody notes and bowing going together exactly... to me, one of the wonderful things about banjo (that, for me at least, can't happen in the same way in my guitar picking) is how the right hand pattern conflicts with, toys around with, the left hand noting. This, to me, makes the music bounce around and do all sorts of exciting little leaps and stuff. I have heard fiddlers do the same... the bowing has one mind set and the noting has another... they often conflict and then converge, etc., to make the music very exciting. To me, flat playing means the two hands are in perfect agreement, and this element of interest is gone. I'm sure this perfect agreement between hands is so exact and takes a lot of effort to achieve, I just personally don't like the sound... it's not what drew me to banjo and fiddle. The opposite is what got my interest.
And Peggy, I don't mean to knock you. I love your description of his playing and I'm pretty sure you're right. (I say pretty sure because I haven't studied Brad's playing enough to be certain but what you're saying feels right.) I'd add that his timing is more uniform as well. Reasonably aggressive -- he's a hard charger -- but very consistent, too, I think.
Again, not for everyone. One can appreciate someone's playing without feeling really drawn to it.
dsreiner - Posted - 08/08/2010: 14:32:26
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Not trying to be critical here, to me, Leftwich's playing sounds "flat." Compared with some other fiddlers whose playing sounds wrinkled... and has more interest to me. I think he is amazing, how he pulled apart various licks and patterns and stuff and was able to pull it apart, show it to others, discern the use of these things in playing, and put it all back together again. ...
I'd like to offer a perspective that's at right angles to all this.
Bear in mind that it's really not easy to slow tunes down and pick them apart to help students. It may require thinking consciously about things (including bowing, phrasing, accents, and even notes) that had become
unconsciously guided for familiar tunes learned long ago. Some of those get lost when a tune is slowed and picked apart.
What's worse - and most teachers have experienced this - is that once you've pulled a tune apart it's sometimes very hard to put it back together, and go back to the mindset of
not thinking about it as you play it. You lose your former fluidity and the tune gets harder. You taught it - but lost it yourself in teaching it! The good news is that if you leave it alone for a while it often will come back.
This isn't a pattern vs. non-pattern observation. Almost everyone's goal is to be able to play fluidly, to be at one with the tune, and not to be thinking too hard about the tune while playing it.
It's also not a observation on Brad's playing at all. I've been recording both fast and slow versions of the Fiddle Hell Massachusetts tune list recently, and so these effects are top of mind.
Dave
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/08/2010: 14:48:53
Yes, I have nothing but admiration for Brad Leftwich, and as I said before, his playing is a hundred times better than mine... I think he has done amazing things and probably helped many people understand and play, and probably even helped more than he thinks, because certainly lots of people who aren't necesarily fans or student still got a foothold from his perspective on the whole thing. He's done a great service to the world of old-time fiddling, for sure!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/08/2010: 19:51:28
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
I'll just leave it in saying I believe Pogo's wife must have good taste in fiddling!
Well, of course she does, she'll only listen to mine!!!
Well, ALMOST!
Seriously, she was making noises about a year ago that she was actually enjoying
my fiddling, and I thought, well, great, maybe I'll turn her on to some more good fiddling,
so then I could actually listen to fiddling without headphones when she's around.
But everything I played for her was "No, I don't like that, I like yours." When I asked her why,
I got the comment about the other stuff sounding frantic to her.
I think the only recording of another fiddler she was able to listen to without that comment was Dave Reiner!!! (hmmm.... maybe she just likes pattern downbowers!
) Granted there may have been a few I didn't try, because it was so frustrating that I probably quit too soon. Or maybe I figured that since she was being mildly tortured by what she was hearing that it wasn't a kindness to continue the experiment. (Especially since she's been sick for a while now!) I don't think she liked Graham Townshend either.
One other factor: The highest praise she previously had ever bestowed on a song was "That sounds so melodious!" (Since she isn't a native speaker of English, sometimes she comes up with some rather old fashioned, charming ways of saying things.)
And that might also be a factor in stuff sounding frantic to her or not- she would have to clearly hear the melody for her to like it. If anything was obscuring the melody, like superfluous notes or overly pronounced shuffles,
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/09/2010: 05:03:57
I was helping my husband lay hardwood flooring yesterday and I had to tell him I would get too sick to continue helping if he didn't change the music selection... I don't know who it was... some rock group from the old days or something, just making the most sickening sounds... he turned it to Hank Williams because he needed the help! After 34 years of marriage, he knows I'm serious when i say the wrong music will make me so nervous I'll be too sick to work!!!!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/09/2010: 14:31:32
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
I was helping my husband lay hardwood flooring yesterday and I had to tell him I would get too sick to continue helping if he didn't change the music selection... I don't know who it was... some rock group from the old days or something, just making the most sickening sounds... he turned it to Hank Williams because he needed the help! After 34 years of marriage, he knows I'm serious when i say the wrong music will make me so nervous I'll be too sick to work!!!!
Music stores are my favorite kind of stores, but if there's too much noisy rock guitar going on, I'll leave, pronto!!! (It's amazing there is distorted rock stuff that makes leaf blowers, chainsaws, and 2-cycle motorcycles sound like musical instruments in comparison... and I'm not fond of the sounds they make either!!!)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/09/2010: 14:39:45
quote:
Originally posted by dsreiner
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Not trying to be critical here, to me, Leftwich's playing sounds "flat." Compared with some other fiddlers whose playing sounds wrinkled... and has more interest to me. I think he is amazing, how he pulled apart various licks and patterns and stuff and was able to pull it apart, show it to others, discern the use of these things in playing, and put it all back together again. ...
I'd like to offer a perspective that's at right angles to all this.
Bear in mind that it's really not easy to slow tunes down and pick them apart to help students. It may require thinking consciously about things (including bowing, phrasing, accents, and even notes) that had become unconsciously guided for familiar tunes learned long ago. Some of those get lost when a tune is slowed and picked apart.
What's worse - and most teachers have experienced this - is that once you've pulled a tune apart it's sometimes very hard to put it back together, and go back to the mindset of not thinking about it as you play it. You lose your former fluidity and the tune gets harder. You taught it - but lost it yourself in teaching it! The good news is that if you leave it alone for a while it often will come back.
This isn't a pattern vs. non-pattern observation. Almost everyone's goal is to be able to play fluidly, to be at one with the tune, and not to be thinking too hard about the tune while playing it.
It's also not a observation on Brad's playing at all. I've been recording both fast and slow versions of the Fiddle Hell Massachusetts tune list recently, and so these effects are top of mind.
Dave
Dave,
Thanks for sharing that- that's a valuable insight, coming from someone who has actually done it!
And, BTW, it's also MY goal to:
" be able to play fluidly, to be at one with the tune, and not to be thinking too hard about the tune while playing it. ".
All the thinking about and analyzing of bowing is to lay the groundwork in advance, so when I fiddle, I DON'T have to think about it!
Some people might think that's not a very Old Time thing to do,
but mountaineers have/had an expression that turned up sometimes in interviews:
"study on that awhile"... meaning to think deeply about something.
People often don't even HAVE phrases for things they never do, so if mountaineers never thought long and hard about things, I doubt they'd have that expression.
And if fiddling was important to them, well, they'd "study on fiddling awhile", I'm sure!
martynspeck - Posted - 08/25/2011: 19:44:22
Humbled, It's not like you to not have anything to say. 
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/25/2011: 20:34:15
Okay and just to come at this bowing patterns--enjoyable bowing patterns--from an angle a few degrees to the left of the right angle aforementioned by various plenipotentiaries here, let's say we pattern the psycho-perideridia syncopated Nashville shuffle thusly:
U U DD U U D
(all the while bearing in mind that this pattern repeats over any standard 4/4 or some such reasonable facsimile),
then what's to stop one from accenting the upstrokes?
tonyelder - Posted - 08/19/2012: 23:04:15
...still thinking.
Edited by - tonyelder on 08/19/2012 23:04:48
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/20/2012: 09:31:38
Careful folks.... you're bumping the GRANDDADDY of all Fiddle Hangout bowing threads and drawing it to fiddlepogo's attention....
Why.... the selection of active topics is so seriously limited right now that.... should I????
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 08/20/2012 09:50:49
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 08/20/2012: 09:50:56
"He's baaaaaack! Run, lads, runnnnnnnnn! The Ministry of Any-Which-Way Bowing has just acknowledged that He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has been catching fiddlers who are unawares, thinking that they are bowing as they feel, and pointing a bony finger at them and saying, "Nuh uh uh! You're using a syncopated Arizona side-step unshuffle; you're NOT bowing any-which-way! Ahhhhhhhhaaaahaaaahhaaaaahhaaaaaaa!" at which point he waves his wand...er...bow and yells Nashvillicus Shuffleeosa and the poor fiddlers explode.
AP News
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/20/2012: 10:41:29
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
"He's baaaaaack! Run, lads, runnnnnnnnn! The Ministry of Any-Which-Way Bowing has just acknowledged that He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named has been catching fiddlers who are unawares, thinking that they are bowing as they feel, and pointing a bony finger at them and saying, "Nuh uh uh! You're using a syncopated Arizona side-step unshuffle; you're NOT bowing any-which-way! Ahhhhhhhhaaaahaaaahhaaaaahhaaaaaaa!" at which point he waves his wand...er...bow and yells Nashvillicus Shuffleeosa and the poor fiddlers explode.
AP News
LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/25/2012: 17:01:10
Oh...I was just thinking about this thread and now I found it!!! Here it is! I was telling my husband on the way back from TN, if i'uz rich suddenly, which in itself would be a shock, still, I think I'd open up and sandwich shop and make any kind f sandwich anybody can think up, and call the restaurant Any Which Way...and paint those words in all kinds of crazy was all over the building...and of course there would be open mic all the time for folkish ( not rock or rap!) musicians, fiddlers and whatever others might come outta the wodwork...dreaming!!!! I ain't planning on gettin rich...but I wanna try one or two of these shuffles again! We could name name sandwiches from the shuffles at the Any Whhich Way...lol...have I gone totally nuts r what????
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 08/25/2012 17:05:37
fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/25/2012: 17:09:59
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Oh...I was just thinking about this thread and now I found it!!! Here it is! I was telling my husband on the way back from TN, if i'uz rich suddenly, which in itself would be a shock, still, I think I'd open up and sandwich shop and make any kind f sandwich anybody can think up, and call the restaurant Any Which Way...and paint those words in all kinds of crazy was all over the building...and of course there would be open mic all the time for folkish ( not rock or rap!) musicians, fiddlers and whatever others might come outta the wodwork...dreaming!!!! I ain't planning on gettin rich...but I wanna try one or two of these shuffles again! We could name name sandwiches from the shuffles at the Any Whhich Way...lol...have I gone totally nuts r what????
And I was looking for it for you, but you beat me to it!!!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 08/27/2012: 06:29:19
My attempt to continue this discussion with the help of youtube... this one is just temporary, as I wasn't fully awake yet and should be doing so many other pressing chores, etc., but just started out after getting the chickens and goats situated for the day, having coffee with the hangout and on the spur of the moment grabbed the easiest fiddle (the one without the shoulder rest), didn't even tighten the bow or rosin it, and my nails have gotten too long for playin which caused terrible problems and disasterous sounds in addition to ,my terrible sounds especially since I never have time to play anymore... but just on the spur of the moment decided to continue this discussion until I look at this youtube again myself, when fully awake and it'll embarrass the heck outta me and I'll take it back down... anyway... would be a great thing if we could continue with various youtubes, possibly done with more finesse than my horrible one here, but for the sake of argument.... here "tis: youtu.be/a_gltVh92Js and you know it's a bad youtube when it takes so much explanation...lol! I'll take it back down soon, maybe I'll even get the time to put up something better... doubtful though. Please correct me if I've got some of the info wrong in there!
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 01/21/2013: 22:46:20
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by Bluegrassified
Holy Crap! You guys are scaring this new comer to the fiddle to death! LOL! 8 months in and the more I progress the deeper I dig and the more I realize just how much I've got to learn! Great info, just too much at once! I'll keep trying and experimenting. Wish that first list had audio example of each one! Now THAT would be awesome!
Just take it one step at a time, or rather one shuffle at a time!!!
Many old timers developed an appealing style base on one or two patterns (and I'm including
sawstroke as a basic pattern)
If you can find two that float yer boat, and the other ones don't, no need to go any farther.
It can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.
Generally, the patterns with traditional names are the best place to start:
Sawstroke, Nashville Shuffle, and Georgia Shuffle.
Even many Bluegrass fiddlers go no farther than those three, but with the addition
of Double Shuffle aka Hokum Bowing.
So the most dominant pattern used by the Old Timers is? Saw stroke? From the earliest recordings what do we know?
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/23/2013: 00:18:33
Humbled.... are you BAITING me???
Unfortunately, bowing questions are difficult for me to resist, even when likely not sincere, so here goes:
When I listen to Library of Congress recordings from the late '30s and early '40s of the last century, featuring fiddlers born around the Civil War, sawstroke is very common, but so is Nashville Shuffle.
On commercial 78 recordings, which feature younger fiddlers born closer to 1900, give or take a few years, you also hear a lot of sawstroke and Nashville Shuffle.
This isn't particularly surprising, since Scottish fiddling was a huge influence on Old Time fiddling in the early days, and it uses lots of sawstroke and Nashville Shuffle (except maybe it should be called the Edinburgh Shuffle over there.)
For that matter, if you look at videos of early bluegrass fiddlers, they were also using mostly sawstroke and Nashville Shuffle. Many of them were born in the 1920's.
However, when you actually got to watch fiddlers born around 1900 like Tommy Jarrell or Earl Collins, it was obvious that sawstroke and Nashville was NOT all they were using. Nashville and sawstroke are easy to pick out on a recording because they get used a lot, but some other patterns get used only in special situations for one measure- and they are over and gone before you noticed what was happening.... especially on an audio recording. If you see the bowing and know what sawstroke or Nashville LOOKS like, it's pretty obvious when a fiddler uses something else.
Now that I'm familiar with some other patterns, and give some of the old recordings a listen, I can hear other patterns besides Nashville and sawstroke. I think good fiddlers were using them all along to spice things up, or to fit the melody better.
A really common strategy is two note slurs... especially in Kentucky and West Virginia. But I've seen a West Virginian use two note slurs, and he's got a trick to it- his two note slurs sound WAY better than mine!
Two note slurs fit in nicely with sawstroke, if you keep them in pairs. But they don't sound very driving if you use very many of them in a row.
One thing to listen for is syncopation. If it's syncopated, you need a pattern that syncopates too.
The likely suspect is what I call Syncoshuffle- 1-2-1-2-1-1. Gotta have it for Chicken Reel- chickens syncopate- puhk-AWK!!!
OTJunky - Posted - 01/23/2013: 04:32:13
IdleHands - Posted - 01/23/2013: 08:00:17
The only way to verify pogo's findings is too go through the library of congress I guess. We should just take his word for it.
The real question for people learning though is "did they approach fiddling with a pattern first approach, where they practice patterns on the back burner and then fit melodies into those patterns?". This is really the relevant question. Anything can be a pattern in hindsight.
IdleHands - Posted - 01/23/2013: 08:23:21
Another point: If preservation of Old Time Fiddling is a priority for some, should the oldest most scottishy old time fiddling be the most priorityest?
Mandogryl - Posted - 01/23/2013: 08:34:21
Prioritized.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/23/2013: 09:36:08
Well.... humbled baited me, I baited Idle Hands (not intentionally actually, but it had that effect), so the waters have been tested, so to speak, and it's obvious that the basic dynamics of any ensuing bowing discussion are going to be nearly identical to the recent previous ones.
THAT'S enough to give me pause. Probably a VERY LONG one!
Oh well...
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/23/2013: 10:36:00
Pssst.... for anyone really and sincerely interested in bowing patterns, the GOOD STUFF is at the BEGINNING of the thread, and prolly most of that in the very first post by Dave Reiner.
THIS thread is the granddaddy of all the Fiddle Hangout bowing threads, started by Dave Reiner a very short time after the Fiddle Hangout opened.
Humbled has been bumping this thread every year and so kept it out of the archives. So he's actually doing us a favor... if you know to look at the beginning.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/23/2013 10:51:20
IdleHands - Posted - 01/23/2013: 12:42:23
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Pssst.... for anyone really and sincerely interested in bowing patterns, the GOOD STUFF is at the BEGINNING of the thread, and prolly most of that in the very first post by Dave Reiner.
The best stuff if when I come in and start slaughtering the sacred cow of patterns and espousing CBM: Complete Bowing Mastery.
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 01/23/2013: 20:19:15
Just listened to Eck Robertson, the earliest fiddle recording we have:
oldtimemusic.com/FHOFEck.html
Doesn't sound Scottish or Irish influenced to me. Isn't it too fast for dance? I hear...seriously...Jimi Hendrix. Waaaaaaaaaaa as he hits those high notes and holds them, (allowing the Marshall amplifiers to feedback.) And I hear saw stroke. Not scratchy nor screechy.
Thanks, Pogo. I enjoy your enthusiasm concerning these patterns. I don't have the same passion, but so what.
Curt
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/23/2013: 21:04:30
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
Just listened to Eck Robertson, the earliest fiddle recording we have:
oldtimemusic.com/FHOFEck.html
Doesn't sound Scottish or Irish influenced to me. Isn't it too fast for dance? I hear...seriously...Jimi Hendrix. Waaaaaaaaaaa as he hits those high notes and holds them, (allowing the Marshall amplifiers to feedback.) And I hear saw stroke. Not scratchy nor screechy.
Thanks, Pogo. I enjoy your enthusiasm concerning these patterns. I don't have the same passion, but so what.
Curt
The paradox is that the 20's recordings probably represent by and large a newer style. Remember that they were commercial recordings- the motivation was not preserving styles that were dying out, but selling the most records.
Except for Eck Robertson who travelled to New York on his own volition for the recordings, the recording studios were located in hotel lobbies in foothill towns like Asheville, NC. By making the fiddlers travel TO the recording studio it would have set up a bias towards younger, more mobile fiddlers. The Library of Congress collectors on the other hand recorded in the fiddler's homes... so even if a fiddler couldn't travel, he could be recorded.
IOW, if you record an 85 year old fiddler in 1942, you get a more archaic style fiddler than if you record a 35 year old fiddler in 1922. (Eck was 35 when he was recorded) The Library of Congress recordings tend to represent a much more archaic style, even though they were recorded LATER. The fiddlers were older, and played in an older style, and many of them were from very tradition oriented areas in the mountains. (All over the world, mountaineers tend to be more isolated and tradition oriented- flatlanders tend to be more up-to-date) The collectors were certainly aware of the commercial 78 recordings, and would probably have felt little reason to duplicate what the record companies had done. From what I've read, the field collecting was motivated by the fact that the generation that had a pre-Civil War style (whether fiddlers, ballad singers, or banjo players) was about to pass on.
Texas fiddling in particular has been very progressive in fiddling- more the leading edge of the Old Time tradition(s) than the trailing (traditional) edge.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/23/2013: 21:05:51
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Pssst.... for anyone really and sincerely interested in bowing patterns, the GOOD STUFF is at the BEGINNING of the thread, and prolly most of that in the very first post by Dave Reiner.
The best stuff if when I come in and start slaughtering the sacred cow of patterns and espousing CBM: Complete Bowing Mastery.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/23/2013 21:06:29
paulinefiddle - Posted - 01/23/2013: 23:41:27
I sometimes have my students play the entire A or B section of a tune with just one bowing, but I tell them that this is just for practice. It would be boring to play just one bowing for a whole piece. I change my bowings frequently when I play, although I've found my favorite bowing patterns for certain patterns of notes.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/24/2013: 05:49:43
Well my guitar-world is still too exciting and taking up most of my teensie spare time for me to do much with fiddle, but I still find this topic fascinating, and I'm reminded of it everytime I pick up my guitar. On the guitar, I am at best half-conscious of picking "patterns," and using them in different, unimaginable ways all the time, mainly because I have to come up with Bluegrassy playing and I have absolutely no BG smarts and absolutely cannot begin to wield a flatpick...this makes my life challenging, tough, but very exciting....I feel like I'm on some personal mission to the moon! Each tiny step I see things better I only half-saw before. Now, it seems to me this must be the same for bowing the fiddle. How do you get there? You either force learn by laying open patterns, or absorb the slow way by osmosis. For osmosis to happen, you must be submerged and porous,,,ain't that right? Nw, grabbing my guitar and off to play in the band...big challenges ahead/ I'm wearing my space suit!!!
DougD - Posted - 01/24/2013: 06:14:49
Humbled - Maybe not "Sallie Gooden," but Eck Robertson's recording of "Ragtime Annie has lots of drones and ornaments that sound somewhat Scottish to me: archive.org/details/Eck_Robert...ime_Annie His full name was Alexander Campbell Robertson, which are all common Scottish names.
Add: Listening again, I think I can hear the skirl of the pipes in "Sallie Gooden" too, along with a hint of a Scotch snap in a couple places.
Edited by - DougD on 01/24/2013 06:21:09
DougD - Posted - 01/24/2013: 07:17:19
Fiddlepogo - I'd disagree with you on several points. Eck Robertson was certainly not the only old time fiddler recorded in New York. Others would include Uncle Am Stuart, Samantha Bumgarner and Eva Davis (possibly the earliest "string band" to record), Fiddling Powers and Family (another candidate for earliest string band), Uncle Bunt Stephens, G.B. Grayson, Mellie Dunham, Charlie Poole (with Posey Rorer, Lonnie Austin and Odell Smith), Uncle Dave Macon (with Sid Harkreader), Al Hopkins and the Hillbillies (with Tony Alderman and Charlie Bowman), Emmett Lundy, and I'm sure many more.
Although some location recording was done in the acoustic era, it was difficult, and it was really the advent of electrical recording that encouraged trips like the one to Bristol (in fact whether the equipment would be portable was one of the concerns of the recording companies in adopting electrical recording). Hotel lobbies would be way too noisy for recording - I think they generally used ballrooms, or other meeting rooms - sometimes suites of rooms. Often not hotels to begin with. The Bristol sessions were held in a vacant room over a hat shop: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sessions
Although Eck Robertson was not quite 35 when he recorded, he was accompanied on two sides by Henry Gilliland, who was born in 1845. Other older fiddlers who made commercial records would include: Uncle Jimmy Thompson (b.1848), Uncle Am Stuart (b. 1853), Mellie Dunham (b. 1853), Fiddling John Carson (b. 1868), Allen Sisson (b.1873) - all older than or contemporary with Emmett Lundy (b. 1864) who also recorded two commercial sides. Older non-fiddler old time players would include banjo players Polk Miller (b. 1844) and of course Uncle Dave Macon (b. 1870).
Although they recorded some great music, I don't think the collectors represented in the Library of Congress were generally devotees of commercial country music, and sometimes hostile towards it. They often recorded tunes learned from commercial recordings and frequently failed to recognize songs learned from Carter Family records.
Edited by - DougD on 01/24/2013 07:25:11
paulinefiddle - Posted - 01/24/2013: 07:23:15
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Well my guitar-world is still too exciting and taking up most of my teensie spare time for me to do much with fiddle, but I still find this topic fascinating, and I'm reminded of it everytime I pick up my guitar. On the guitar, I am at best half-conscious of picking "patterns," and using them in different, unimaginable ways all the time, mainly because I have to come up with Bluegrassy playing and I have absolutely no BG smarts and absolutely cannot begin to wield a flatpick...this makes my life challenging, tough, but very exciting....I feel like I'm on some personal mission to the moon! Each tiny step I see things better I only half-saw before. Now, it seems to me this must be the same for bowing the fiddle. How do you get there? You either force learn by laying open patterns, or absorb the slow way by osmosis. For osmosis to happen, you must be submerged and porous,,,ain't that right? Nw, grabbing my guitar and off to play in the band...big challenges ahead/ I'm wearing my space suit!!!
One good way to learn is by practicing until it becomes nearly automatic.
IdleHands - Posted - 01/24/2013: 07:40:23
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Pssst.... for anyone really and sincerely interested in bowing patterns, the GOOD STUFF is at the BEGINNING of the thread, and prolly most of that in the very first post by Dave Reiner.
The best stuff if when I come in and start slaughtering the sacred cow of patterns and espousing CBM: Complete Bowing Mastery.
Boring you imply? I think not. The decimation I accomplished on the self limiting system of pattern downbowing is a glorious and exciting achievement. Putting a stop to the old time fiddle revisionism being perpetrated here has a real "guts and glory" overtone to it.
Mandogryl - Posted - 01/24/2013: 07:43:06
quote:
Originally posted by paulinefiddle
I sometimes have my students play the entire A or B section of a tune with just one bowing, but I tell them that this is just for practice. It would be boring to play just one bowing for a whole piece. I change my bowings frequently when I play, although I've found my favorite bowing patterns for certain patterns of notes.
Pablo Casals would drill into his students very strict bowings. Very adamant about this. Then later he would demonstrate the piece with completely different bowings.
tonyelder - Posted - 01/24/2013: 08:47:36
fiddlepogo -
"The paradox is that the 20's recordings probably represent by and large a newer style. Remember that they were commercial recordings- the motivation was not preserving styles that were dying out, but selling the most records."
I agree. It was a commercial venture, but I think your analysis might be a little misleading.
I doubt there were many (if any) producers and sound engineers who were steering, manipulating, recording / re-recording anything during the earliest recording sessions in order to make record sales more commercially successful. Records were just not being mass produced / distributed. Commercially available recordings were more a novelty for a pretty good while. Along with the later economic growth (et al) I think the industry realized that - in order to survive and grow as a commercial venture (competing with others for the same dollar) - they would have to adapt to meet the public's taste and demand. With radio (etc) they eventually learn how to steer that demand. Today we have the extreme versions of that mindset - in most places.
But early on - I think they were just looking for the best known performers to record. I think they had limited time, limited resources, and were dealing with a new technology. In "beginning", I think the focus back then was more about how to make this new recording stuff work well enough to get good recordings of what they heard, and not so much about the tunes the musicians and singers were playing or how they were playing them. The "recorders" were just asking for the "musicians" to do their best, and took what they could get within a budget.
On the other hand, I think the musicians and singers were conscious of 2 things (w/o having to be told): If you want to be asked to do this again, #1/ Do your best because #2/ you'll probably only get one take.
This is a long ways away from bowing patterns...
Edited by - tonyelder on 01/24/2013 08:54:41
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 01/24/2013: 09:02:16
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Humbled - Maybe not "Sallie Gooden," but Eck Robertson's recording of "Ragtime Annie has lots of drones and ornaments that sound somewhat Scottish to me: archive.org/details/Eck_Robert...ime_Annie His full name was Alexander Campbell Robertson, which are all common Scottish names.
Add: Listening again, I think I can hear the skirl of the pipes in "Sallie Gooden" too, along with a hint of a Scotch snap in a couple places.
Good stuff. Thanks DougD. I'm hearing more saw stroke amongst the whole notes and, yes, Scottishy stuff. Also surprised with his tone--it's good n'est pas? I was expecting scratchy screechy stuff.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/24/2013: 12:24:51
quote:
Originally posted by paulinefiddle
I sometimes have my students play the entire A or B section of a tune with just one bowing, but I tell them that this is just for practice. It would be boring to play just one bowing for a whole piece. I change my bowings frequently when I play, although I've found my favorite bowing patterns for certain patterns of notes.
THAT is a pretty good nutshell for what I do too- amazing how some people can say the same thing as I do, but with FAR FEWER WORDS!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/24/2013: 12:28:01
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by IdleHands
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Pssst.... for anyone really and sincerely interested in bowing patterns, the GOOD STUFF is at the BEGINNING of the thread, and prolly most of that in the very first post by Dave Reiner.
The best stuff if when I come in and start slaughtering the sacred cow of patterns and espousing CBM: Complete Bowing Mastery.
Boring you imply? I think not. The decimation I accomplished on the self limiting system of pattern downbowing is a glorious and exciting achievement. Putting a stop to the old time fiddle revisionism being perpetrated here has a real "guts and glory" overtone to it.
I'm getting "deja vu" all over again!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/24/2013 12:30:11
IdleHands - Posted - 01/24/2013: 12:36:57
Wow. Three yawning faces! Tripling the efficacy of the response! Were you in debate club?
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