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Lee M - Posted - 12/22/2013: 07:12:24
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
If I can chime in somehow attempting diplomacy here ( clearing throat ), uhhhh--- I think the point of contention originally came about because people who focus on how patterns / shuffles work were frustrated in that people who are anti- pattern/ shuffle had no experience with them. In other words I think, if I remember, the argument was try one or two before you say no. According to my memory and understanding. Me personally, I would call myself patterned in one way ( stuck mostly in a N. Shuffle groove), yet basically anywhichway ( jump in and outta that groove, which may or may not trip me up), yet patterned in thinking, because if I had some " tricks' to get me jumping in and out of N Shuffle without having to think fast on my feet ( more shuffles), I could have true anywhichway freedom to jump around at will and kin will never get tripped up! That's just my thought. I don't want chains holding me down, either way. Of course, the anti patterned people can argue that carefully placed bow strokes will do the same thing as patterns--- could be pattern recognition is a good bowing tool...who knows? The really great thing about old time, ir at least folk, might be the freedom to figure all this stuff out in your own way.
I think that this is a GREAT comment..When I teach a kid a tune I usually have to teach him or her how to use the bow along with the notes.. I use a simple number tab to represent the tune so that the student can get the tune back into their little brains when they are home and trying to practice...This is where I see a problem..Except when it is one of the more simple tunes, for me, it is almost impossible to decide how to represent my bowing because although my bowing flows smoothly in my right hand, it is DIFFERENT almost every time I play a tune...Trying to decide exactly what I'm doing can be very interesting. There are so many options and in some tunes I seem to use them all..I love that I can do that but when someone asks how I'm bowing a tune I'm usually at a loss for words... I use so many combinations of both patterns and random bowing...but it all WORKS..
You can't imagine how difficult it was for me to post audio examples of me playing..(ok, it Was usually after I'd had a beer or two). I posted those as examples of tune I'd made up and I wanted my fiddling daughter to have good samples of them.. I tried to minimize the ad libs and used a metronome in my ear bud and TRIED to play the tunes the same way each time.. Thinking about bowing and bowing at the same time was a big problem. The result was that because I was thinking about it so much that I didn't do as well as I would have liked...I'm not trying to make excuses for how I sound but to make the point that my bowing is best when I can just let it FLOW freely (both with and without patterns)...
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/22/2013: 07:19:49
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
There is no NEED to make a separate study or discipline out of bowing patterns. It wasn't done in the past.
Actually, there was ONE pattern that WAS studied separately from tunes. And it's one of the reasons why the pattern is so common.... and has a name.
Nashville Shuffle!!!
Some years back, I remembered that Tracy Schwarz had had an LP fiddle instruction album. Thinking that might have influenced the terms and patterns used by young folkie fiddlers, I asked him in an e-mail what patterns and terms he used.
IIRC he said:
Sawstroke
Georgia Shuffle, and
Nashville WIND-UP!
Not Nashville SHUFFLE.
And he got the term "Nashville Windup" from an Old Time guitarist (an oldtimer) from North Carolina that OTJ knows the name of.
The term "windup" is apparently another term for "kick-off"- it's a reference to the way that Nashville is used to kick-off tunes.
And the Nashville kickoff or windup became REALLY popular- so much so that it's stereotypical.
Some observations:
1. Once when looking at the website of Pascal Gemme, the fiddler of Genticorum, a Quebecois fiddler, I was listening to how he started tunes:
Four double notes on open strings- and I thought: "That sounds REALLY archaic.... and so simple and obvious.... that may have been how Old Time fiddlers kicked tunes off before the Nashville kick-off became pervasive:
2. The Nashville kickoff does a couple of things that Pascal's Quebecois kick-off doesn't do however- the Nashville kickoff CAN be used on two open strings, but I think it is more common for it to be done on a unison or a close double stop. Done in this way, it allows you to slide up to the correct intonation, getting ready to intonate the tune correctly. Also, rather than just giving you four metronome-like beats, it gives you an idea of the groove the fiddler was going to use. When I started fiddling again in 2005, within about a year I became a member at ezfolk.com, which at the time had mp3 storage and playback. So I started recording and posting tunes. And, still being somewhat rusty from the 15 year hiatus, and having some recording jitters, I found it really useful to do a kickoff on a double stop or a unison. Problem: I disliked Nashville so much that I'd gotten rather rusty at IT, so it seemed natural to use the bowings I was actually using as kick-offs, and they worked rather well- it helped my left hand get ready for what I was actually going to play, and my bowing arm get ready for what it was actually going to play.
Since the Nashville Windup or kickoff is stereotypically associated with square dances, it's likely that fiddlers starting up a tune at a dance felt kind of like I did in front of a live recording microphone. It gives you a way to get started gracefully, to kind of ease into the tune, in addition to the obvious function of letting the caller, dancers, and rest of the band know what was going on.
3. My observation is that if a fiddler used Nashville in a kickoff, there would be a tendency to continue to use Nashville for the first few measures of the first part. It's really common for the low part of Fortune to be played with Nashville Shuffle, and that may have been part of why it's so common to play the low part of Arkansas Traveler down a whole octave.
Anyway... I find it hard to believe that a square dance fiddler that had been hired to play for a dance wouldn't practice how he started tunes. Since the Nashville pattern was part of how the kickoff went, whenever a fiddle practiced the kickoff, he was practicing the Nashville pattern.... and practicing it WITHOUT applying it to a melody!
So, the Nashville pattern got SPECIAL practice and attention by being part of the Nashville Windup or kickoff.
And that may be part of the reason why it's so pervasive... pervasive enough that some of us have acquired a distaste for it!
If you've been using the Nashville Shuffle as a kickoff, you've given it a head start- it's going to be wired better into your subconscious that other bowing approaches. If you want to avoid Nashville at that point (like I did because I was sick of it) you are going to have to do something to give other bowing approaches "a leg up" compared to Nashville.... IOW, you are going to need to give them special attention, or you will find yourself defaulting to Nashville.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/22/2013: 07:34:05
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
Well to to sum up the by now nearly decade long bowing debates
You're exaggerating, OTJ.... the Fiddle Hangout didn't exist in 2003, or even early 2004!
Unless you are talking about bowing threads over on the Fiddle Forum.... Dave Reiner started one there in 2006 or so, which is how I "made his acquaintance" in a "virtual" manner. But I don't recall the bowing threads over there being particularly heated.
So... we've been having 6 and one half years of bowing threads and debates.
tonyelder - Posted - 12/22/2013: 07:56:01
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
If I can chime in somehow attempting diplomacy here ( clearing throat ), uhhhh--- I think the point of contention originally came about because people who focus on how patterns / shuffles work were frustrated in that people who are anti- pattern/ shuffle had no experience with them. In other words I think, if I remember, the argument was try one or two before you say no. According to my memory and understanding.
I'm sorry Peggy, but that is not the way I understand the argument - at least not for me. Not at all.
My contention has to do with the idea that only pattern down bowing fiddlers are really able to play old time fiddle tunes properly and according to tradition.
I personally could care less if someone wants to learn bowing patterns. If you want to learn them, then I say go for it - learn them all. I have said - all along - that learning patterns can help a person learn how to fiddle and play old time music. How good they become is up to them.
But I will counter the idea that patterns are a prerequisite or a requirement to being a good old time fiddler. I sincerely believe that a person can also spend their time listening, watching, and playing and end up with pretty much the same end results. That being a good old time fiddler. And how good they become is up to them.
It is simply a matter of what you want and how bad you want it.
OTJunky - Posted - 12/22/2013: 08:02:42
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
So... we've been having 6 and one half years of bowing threads and debates.
Ya got me...
Sure feels like a decade though...
--OTJ
tonyelder - Posted - 12/22/2013: 08:27:18
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
And he got the term "Nashville Windup" from an Old Time guitarist (an oldtimer) from North Carolina that OTJ knows the name of.
Most guitarist I know would call it "potatoes".
And what are you doing listening to guitarist anyway? You told me guitar players don't know beans about fiddlin' and patterns!!! You need to make up your mind. 
But, you're right. The Nashville shuffle has been around for a long time.
And you know what - it took me about a minute and a half with fiddle and bow, and I could play potatoes. And I've never really spent much time "practicing it" since then.
And you know what else, I do catch myself playing that Nashville Shuffle in a tune every once in a while. I don't give it a whole lot of thought when I do, but it doesn't happen by accident. I usually play it in a tune where I heard it being played.
I can't say I've ever thought to myself - I think I'll try playing this tune with the Nashville Shuffle.
DougD - Posted - 12/22/2013: 08:30:27
Michael, Tracy's instructional record is still available from Smithsonian Folkways, and I think it would still be very useful for people starting out: folkways.si.edu/tracy-schwarz/...ithsonian You can download the liner notes in .pdf format from the website. In track 9 of side 1 he introduces the "Nashville Shuffle stroke," and spends the next several tracks applying it to "Cripple Creek" There is no mention of a "Nashville Windup." He says its "called the Nashville Shuffle because Nashville Tennessee is the Country Music Capital of the United States and this stroke is used quite often in modern Country Music."
I wonder how old that term really is. I associate it with the kind of music played by the old time bands who were trotted out on the Opry to play for the square dancers - rhythmic, melodically not too complex, and good for dancing but not too interesting for listening (at least to me).
I understand what you mean about using this to start a dance. I was playing a small contra dance once with a friend - him on fiddle and me on banjo, and he was totally unable to play "potatoes" at the start of a tune which was driving the caller crazy, so we switched instruments since I could do it. Not to long ago I got to wondering if this was what was meant by "Nashville shuffle," and I took a look at how I do it. I play D-D-U, D-D-U, as I would on a clawhammer banjo (the "Up" being the fifth string as the rest of your hand comes back up). I guess I'm just a downbower! That's the only part of my bowing I've ever analyzed.
Lee M - Posted - 12/22/2013: 08:49:46
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Michael, Tracy's instructional record is still available from Smithsonian Folkways, and I think it would still be very useful for people starting out: folkways.si.edu/tracy-schwarz/...ithsonian You can download the liner notes in .pdf format from the website. In track 9 of side 1 he introduces the "Nashville Shuffle stroke," and spends the next several tracks applying it to "Cripple Creek" There is no mention of a "Nashville Windup." He says its "called the Nashville Shuffle because Nashville Tennessee is the Country Music Capital of the United States and this stroke is used quite often in modern Country Music."
I wonder how old that term really is. I associate it with the kind of music played by the old time bands who were trotted out on the Opry to play for the square dancers - rhythmic, melodically not too complex, and good for dancing but not too interesting for listening (at least to me).
I understand what you mean about using this to start a dance. I was playing a small contra dance once with a friend - him on fiddle and me on banjo, and he was totally unable to play "potatoes" at the start of a tune which was driving the caller crazy, so we switched instruments since I could do it. Not to long ago I got to wondering if this was what was meant by "Nashville shuffle," and I took a look at how I do it. I play D-D-U, D-D-U, as I would on a clawhammer banjo (the "Up" being the fifth string as the rest of your hand comes back up). I guess I'm just a downbower! That's the only part of my bowing I've ever analyzed.
You say that that is the only part of your bowing that you've ever analyzed.... Make it the LAST
Edited by - Lee M on 12/22/2013 08:50:38
OTJunky - Posted - 12/22/2013: 08:56:09
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I play D-D-U, D-D-U, as I would on a clawhammer banjo (the "Up" being the fifth string as the rest of your hand comes back up). I guess I'm just a downbower! That's the only part of my bowing I've ever analyzed.
According to the strictures of pattern bowing, that's not the way to do it Doug. Look it up on the first page of the pattern bowing thread.
I'm afraid you'll need to agree to go back and learn it right...
--OTJ
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/22/2013: 13:41:36
Does that make it more of a bum-diddy than a tater?
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/22/2013: 18:58:38
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
And he got the term "Nashville Windup" from an Old Time guitarist (an oldtimer) from North Carolina that OTJ knows the name of.
Most guitarist I know would call it "potatoes".
And what are you doing listening to guitarist anyway? You told me guitar players don't know beans about fiddlin' and patterns!!! You need to make up your mind.
But, you're right. The Nashville shuffle has been around for a long time.
And you know what - it took me about a minute and a half with fiddle and bow, and I could play potatoes. And I've never really spent much time "practicing it" since then.
And you know what else, I do catch myself playing that Nashville Shuffle in a tune every once in a while. I don't give it a whole lot of thought when I do, but it doesn't happen by accident. I usually play it in a tune where I heard it being played.
I can't say I've ever thought to myself - I think I'll try playing this tune with the Nashville Shuffle.
Before I say anything about bowing, lemme say this:
I've stepped back from the trees to look at the forest today....
the way my mind works is that it's REALLY easy for me to focus on DETAILS. It's a gift in some ways, and a problem in others.
Ultimately, in the grand scheme of things, people are more important than things, and bowing is a thing.... so it's not ALL that important.
Please pardon me if in my geeky obsession with bowing, I've conveyed a different impression.
So, keeping that in mind....
It was Tracy Schwarz that paid attention to the guitarist.... but he was an oldtimer, and yeah, I think he'd be a fine source for terminology.
As far as the rest, what I do with learning a new pattern isn't really much different than you did with Nashville...
I try the pattern on some unisons or double stops, as if I were doing potatoes with Nashville, only it's a different rhythm.
Then I try it on the low parts of Growling Old Man and Eighth of January, which aren't much more complicated.
Finally I try it on the high part of June Apple to synch it with a complex but repetitive series of left hand notes on one string.
And after that, sooner or later, the pattern will just start appearing in similar places to the above mentioned ones without me even thinking about it.
Then I get more and more comfortable with it, and it becomes my new default main bowing for a while.
I don't think I've ever attempted to read bowings from slurs on sheet music and had any success with it for actually learning to play a tune that way.
In effect, I just take the new pattern through the steps or stages that I took with Nashville, since I know THAT worked just fine.
If I was to try to teach a classical violinist bowing patterns, I MIGHT try to present it that way, since that's how they're used to learning.
But for most other people, probably not.... but that's just a guess.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/22/2013: 19:20:00
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Michael, Tracy's instructional record is still available from Smithsonian Folkways, and I think it would still be very useful for people starting out: folkways.si.edu/tracy-schwarz/...ithsonian You can download the liner notes in .pdf format from the website. In track 9 of side 1 he introduces the "Nashville Shuffle stroke," and spends the next several tracks applying it to "Cripple Creek" There is no mention of a "Nashville Windup." He says its "called the Nashville Shuffle because Nashville Tennessee is the Country Music Capital of the United States and this stroke is used quite often in modern Country Music."
I wonder how old that term really is. I associate it with the kind of music played by the old time bands who were trotted out on the Opry to play for the square dancers - rhythmic, melodically not too complex, and good for dancing but not too interesting for listening (at least to me).
I understand what you mean about using this to start a dance. I was playing a small contra dance once with a friend - him on fiddle and me on banjo, and he was totally unable to play "potatoes" at the start of a tune which was driving the caller crazy, so we switched instruments since I could do it. Not to long ago I got to wondering if this was what was meant by "Nashville shuffle," and I took a look at how I do it. I play D-D-U, D-D-U, as I would on a clawhammer banjo (the "Up" being the fifth string as the rest of your hand comes back up). I guess I'm just a downbower! That's the only part of my bowing I've ever analyzed.
That's interesting... I guess you're doing a pulsed bow to get the back beat.... I'll have to TRY that!!!
(That's one thing I love about bowing threads, sometimes I come up with new things to try!!!
)
But from that video you gave me the link to a while back, you definitely looked like a downbower to me.
When I step back from the trees and look at the forest, I realize that changing your bowing is like a golfer changing his or her golf swing in mid-career- there's a risk to that... and a good chance that you will be losing tournaments for a while.
IOW, for a while, you might be playing WORSE, not better.
So the question really has to be.... is a fiddler satisfied with their playing?
If so, it ain't broke, and they probably ought not go trying to fix it.
However, if they honestly DO think it's "broke".... like if there are too many times when they feel like they are getting tangled up, or are barely hanging on for dear life, or aren't able to lay down a danceable groove.... well then, if they think it's broke, then there really isn't much to be lost by trying to bow differently, and there might be a whole lot to be gained.
But that's something each fiddler needs to decide for themselves.
Re having lots of examples:
I think that's great! I do think you have to assess the value of each fiddler in terms of what you want to emulate.
Something about the sound of certain downbowers just made me say to myself.... " I HAVE to learn how to play like that!!!"
If you don't get that kind of desire ignited, you probably won't be able to do the tough work of relearning stuff.
Somehow upbowers never did that for me. But if they do it for you, well then... ask them to show you a thing or two!
DougD - Posted - 12/23/2013: 06:38:11
Slight revision. When I was trying to analyze how I played "potatoes" I don't think I had an actual fiddle in my hand. D-D-U made perfect sense at the time. But last night I took another look with a real fiddle and bow, and sure enough I play it just like everybody else. Oh well. Funny, just thinking about it again now it still seems an unlikely way to do it, but it just happens.
Think I'll take your advice Lee, and leave the bowing analysis to Fiddlepogo.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/23/2013: 11:46:35
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
It has to do with how fast and how well you can learn it, and how solid and stable your fiddling is once you've learned it.
You're a bluegrasser. You know how fast they can play. Can you take your bowing to a Bluegrass jam and have it keep up? I can.
And it's not because I'm so coordinated.... it's because I'm using a more efficient bowing method.
First of all, this isn't a discussion about bluegrass fiddling. I do play bluegrass - on guitar, not on the fiddle.
I play old time fiddle tunes on the fiddle (along with mandolin and guitar). BG and OT are two different animals.
Actually, this is not REALLY a thread about Old Time fiddling either- if you look at the original post! Dave Reiner is a bluegrass fiddler.... possibly more of a bluegrass fiddler. It's REALLY a thread about bowing mechanics. And my point was that I find pattern downbowing to be mechanically very efficient.
That's handy at a Bluegrass jam- but it was also handy at an Old Time jam... or my attempt at it, because I could make the groove unmistakeable for the folkie guitarists who showed up, yet not tire out over three hours nearly as much.
From that, I surmise that it would also help an Old Time fiddler at a square dance.
AND BG and OT are NOT really different animals... they are closely related, and shade into each other. And nowhere are they more closely related than in the fiddling, and especially with respect to three aspects:
1. The fiddle tunes (BG players will adopt any Old Time fiddle tune they LIKE, and they've been doing that since the beginning of Bluegrass)
2. The bowing patterns. Sawstroke and Nashville are extremely common in Bluegrass, but when I hear field recordings, they are extremely common in Old Time two. Georgia Shuffle is extremely common in Bluegrass because it aligns perfectly with the mandolin chop- but Old Time players do it too, although they are likely to reverse the motions about half the time from what I've seen.
3. The roots of many of the great Bluegrass fiddlers. It was obvious to me back in the 1970's that Byron Berline and Kenny Baker had DEEP roots in Old Time fiddling.... for that matter- so did Bill Monroe via his Uncle Pen! And a few years back I went to see/hear Continental Divide, and talked to their fiddler Billy Hurt during the break. I introduced myself as an Old Time fiddler, and he immediately replied "I am too!"
Now, I'm not anywhere near the level of THOSE guys, but when I was going lots to the Bluegrass jam, I got lots of respect. I didn't change my style at all. Didn't add any slides to the fiddle tunes... didn't change the melodies.... I just played a little faster... and knew I had the reserve to play even faster if needed. (And I only needed that if a twentysomething kicked off the tune!!!) And I played cleanly and in tune, like I always try to do.
IOW.... there is absolutely NOTHING in Old Time fiddling that is foreign to Bluegrass, as long as it's done cleanly and in tune, and you can crank the tempo if needed.
Paradoxically, in comments on my fiddle tunes.... one fellow said he can't hear a TRACE of Bluegrass in my Old Time fiddle tunes!
Now... if you put Old Time fiddle back in it's dance context.... the ability to play fast is NOT optional, especially if some kind of solo dancing is being played for. I learned about this in the context of local Irish step dancing (I think an Irish dancer or Trad player told me this), but I think it's true for Old Time clog dancers too- for a good dancer, it's EASIER to dance to a fast tune than to a slow one, because they stay in the air and maintain momentum. If a tune is played too slowly, their body lands firmly, plants it's full weight on the ground, and they have to fight gravity and inertia to get airborne again.
In other words, the speed helps them to stay "light on their feet".
So I really don't think the speed in Bluegrass fiddling is an innovation- rather, it's a repurposing of something that was already IN Old Time fiddling at the time Bluegrass was "invented" or put together- you can hear plenty of Old Time fiddlers playing pretty fast in the 20's recordings... long before the Bluegrass Boys.
in Bluegrass, speed is repurposed for the "wow" entertainment factor rather than to keep up with the better dancers.
But in either case, bowing efficiency was/is needed.
Also... in terms of the phrasing and the downbowing, and even the use of patterns, I find Bluegrass fiddling to be a lot closer to Eastern Old Time than either is to Western Contest fiddling. And that's not at all surprising, because Bluegrass has it's roots in the eastern United States.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/23/2013: 12:11:34
One of the real issues going on here is that the approach this whole thread is about is
CONSCIOUS and DELIBERATE in it's use of these bowing techniques called patterns.
This only seems appalling and revolutionary to a certain group of Old Timeys.
It occurred to me that it's not at all hard to start with a conscious, deliberate approach to bowing, and then shift to a subconscious approach.
But this is nothing new- I've done this with the techniques on every instrument I've ever learned... and in learning to drive a car, too.
1. Consciously learn specific techniques
2. Practice them until second nature
3. Use them quickly in the ultimate context (whether music or driving situations) without having to think about what you're doing.
I find it strange that this tried and true learning method would be somehow "verboten" in Old Time fiddling.
I think one of the biggest reasons for the objections is that it IS hard to go from a subconscious intuitive approach to a more conscious deliberate approach.... it's tough enough, that it seems like WORK!!!!
dsreiner - Posted - 12/23/2013: 13:30:24
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Actually, this is not REALLY a thread about Old Time fiddling either- if you look at the original post! Dave Reiner is a bluegrass fiddler.... possibly more of a bluegrass fiddler. It's REALLY a thread about bowing mechanics. ...
Back in 2007 when I started this thread, I took the list of patterns from Oldtime Fiddling Across America, which I co-wrote with Pete Anick. Yes, I play bluegrass, too, but there's a lot more diversity in oldtime bowing approaches, especially across all the regional and ethnic styles.
On the first page of this thread, I posted about patterns derived from the words of a song (from conversations with Brad Leftwich), and about Kenny Baker and his bowing approach. Take a look if you get a chance.
Dave (hanging out and playing tunes in Key West for the next few days )
Lee M - Posted - 12/23/2013: 14:05:40
quote:
Originally posted by dsreiner
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Actually, this is not REALLY a thread about Old Time fiddling either- if you look at the original post! Dave Reiner is a bluegrass fiddler.... possibly more of a bluegrass fiddler. It's REALLY a thread about bowing mechanics. ...
Back in 2007 when I started this thread, I took the list of patterns from Oldtime Fiddling Across America, which I co-wrote with Pete Anick. Yes, I play bluegrass, too, but there's a lot more diversity in oldtime bowing approaches, especially across all the regional and ethnic styles.
On the first page of this thread, I posted about patterns derived from the words of a song (from conversations with Brad Leftwich), and about Kenny Baker and his bowing approach. Take a look if you get a chance.
Dave (hanging out and playing tunes in Key West for the next few days )
So, Dsreiner,,, your post means that the thread has finally come full circle!! It's about time. It certainly was a wild ride.....Merry Christmas..
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 12/23/2013: 14:42:23
And remember folks, the title of this thread is Bowing Patterns for your enjoyment! This is all for your enjoyment whether you like it or not, whether you enjoy it all or not, whether you agree or disagree with the various propoundments or admonishments herein written, whether your moma or sister likes or dislikes the aforementioned banter and debate, whether or not you want to smash your fiddle rather than think about d-u--d-d-u-u-u-d or cognitively acknowledge the existence of psycho-shuffle in Tommy Jarrel's bowing patternry--it doesn't matter! It's for YOUR ENJOYMENT! And the sooner you get that fact to stimulate your trigeminal nerve into vibrating out seratonin throughout your cranium, the even greater amount of enjoyment we'll all have.
Sincerely,
U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Bowing Patterns
Lee M - Posted - 12/23/2013: 14:45:14
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
And remember folks, the title of this thread is Bowing Patterns for your enjoyment! This is all for your enjoyment whether you like it or not, whether you enjoy it all or not, whether you agree or disagree with the various propoundments or admonishments herein written, whether your moma or sister likes or dislikes the aforementioned banter and debate, whether or not you want to smash your fiddle rather than think about d-u--d-d-u-u-u-d or cognitively acknowledge the existence of psycho-shuffle in Tommy Jarrel's bowing patternry--it doesn't matter! It's for YOUR ENJOYMENT! And the sooner you get that fact to stimulate your trigeminal nerve into vibrating out seratonin throughout your cranium, the even greater amount of enjoyment we'll all have.
Sincerely,
U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Bowing Patterns
Yeah... what HE said.
OTJunky - Posted - 12/23/2013: 14:50:14
Well, it does kind of feel like a government program.
Hope that's not skirting too close to the prohibition on political comment. If it is, just delete it.
--OTJ
tonyelder - Posted - 12/23/2013: 15:33:06
Actually, this is not REALLY a thread about Old Time fiddling either- if you look at the original post! Dave Reiner is a bluegrass fiddler.... possibly more of a bluegrass fiddler. It's REALLY a thread about bowing mechanics. And my point was that I find pattern downbowing to be mechanically very efficient.
Well, we are along ways away from the original pages of this thread. Be that as it may - my remarks had more to do with your posture within this discussion (and others). That is your insistence on using bowing patterns has pretty much always been within the context of old time fiddling – MUCH more than bluegrass. Am I wrong?
AND BG and OT are NOT really different animals... they are closely related, and shade into each other. And nowhere are they more closely related than in the fiddling, and especially with respect to three aspects:
There is some truth in the statement "they are closely related". Historically, bluegrass did grow out of old time and country music traditions. But bluegrass also has roots in the blues (some of the old time songs [country] have roots in blues as well). That doesn't mean that bluegrass and blues are essentially the same.
Some of the contemporary fiddlers do play with a nod in the direction of old time style of playing – depending on who they are emulating when they play. But I would say that is the exception and not the rule – and very rare these days.
Reality. As a whole - the great majority of bluegrass fiddling is radically different from old time fiddling. Bluegrass is well know for improvisation. Where is that ever found in old time? And list of differences only starts there.
2. The bowing patterns. Sawstroke and Nashville are extremely common in Bluegrass, but when I hear field recordings, they are extremely common in Old Time two. Georgia Shuffle is extremely common in Bluegrass because it aligns perfectly with the mandolin chop- but Old Time players do it too, although they are likely to reverse the motions about half the time from what I've seen.
And I would suggest that sawstroke and Nashville shuffle are fairly common in the “anywhichway” bowing too.Though it may not be given a name.
Now, I'm not anywhere near the level of THOSE guys, but when I was going lots to the Bluegrass jam, I got lots of respect. I didn't change my style at all. Didn't add any slides to the fiddle tunes... didn't change the melodies.... I just played a little faster... and knew I had the reserve to play even faster if needed. (And I only needed that if a twentysomething kicked off the tune!!!) And I played cleanly and in tune, like I always try to do.
IOW.... there is absolutely NOTHING in Old Time fiddling that is foreign to Bluegrass, as long as it's done cleanly and in tune, and you can crank the tempo if needed.
So, I’m guessing - do you want us to also believe that if anyone wants to play real bluegrass fiddle – play it fast, and clean, and get respect of other bluegrassers – like you do – then we will need to learn to be a pattern down bower like you are. 
I know better.
Edited by - tonyelder on 12/23/2013 15:47:08
tonyelder - Posted - 12/23/2013: 16:47:16
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
So the question really has to be.... is a fiddler satisfied with their playing?
If so, it ain't broke, and they probably ought not go trying to fix it.
However, if they honestly DO think it's "broke".... like if there are too many times when they feel like they are getting tangled up, or are barely hanging on for dear life, or aren't able to lay down a danceable groove.... well then, if they think it's broke, then there really isn't much to be lost by trying to bow differently, and there might be a whole lot to be gained.
But that's something each fiddler needs to decide for themselves.
..............
I think that's great! I do think you have to assess the value of each fiddler in terms of what you want to emulate.
Something about the sound of certain downbowers just made me say to myself.... " I HAVE to learn how to play like that!!!"
If you don't get that kind of desire ignited, you probably won't be able to do the tough work of relearning stuff.
I think this is a good time for me to back away from the discussion. So, ...on a positive note.
I like what you said here. It says to me - you can be flexible, and less dogmatic.
Edited by - tonyelder on 12/23/2013 16:50:37
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/23/2013: 20:54:06
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
Actually, this is not REALLY a thread about Old Time fiddling either- if you look at the original post! Dave Reiner is a bluegrass fiddler.... possibly more of a bluegrass fiddler. It's REALLY a thread about bowing mechanics. And my point was that I find pattern downbowing to be mechanically very efficient.
Well, we are along ways away from the original pages of this thread. Be that as it may - my remarks had more to do with your posture within this discussion (and others). That is your insistence on using bowing patterns has pretty much always been within the context of old time fiddling – MUCH more than bluegrass. Am I wrong?
AND BG and OT are NOT really different animals... they are closely related, and shade into each other. And nowhere are they more closely related than in the fiddling, and especially with respect to three aspects:
There is some truth in the statement "they are closely related". Historically, bluegrass did grow out of old time and country music traditions. But bluegrass also has roots in the blues (some of the old time songs [country] have roots in blues as well). That doesn't mean that bluegrass and blues are essentially the same.
Some of the contemporary fiddlers do play with a nod in the direction of old time style of playing – depending on who they are emulating when they play. But I would say that is the exception and not the rule – and very rare these days.
Reality. As a whole - the great majority of bluegrass fiddling is radically different from old time fiddling. Bluegrass is well know for improvisation. Where is that ever found in old time? And list of differences only starts there.
2. The bowing patterns. Sawstroke and Nashville are extremely common in Bluegrass, but when I hear field recordings, they are extremely common in Old Time two. Georgia Shuffle is extremely common in Bluegrass because it aligns perfectly with the mandolin chop- but Old Time players do it too, although they are likely to reverse the motions about half the time from what I've seen.
And I would suggest that sawstroke and Nashville shuffle are fairly common in the “anywhichway” bowing too.Though it may not be given a name.
Now, I'm not anywhere near the level of THOSE guys, but when I was going lots to the Bluegrass jam, I got lots of respect. I didn't change my style at all. Didn't add any slides to the fiddle tunes... didn't change the melodies.... I just played a little faster... and knew I had the reserve to play even faster if needed. (And I only needed that if a twentysomething kicked off the tune!!!) And I played cleanly and in tune, like I always try to do.
IOW.... there is absolutely NOTHING in Old Time fiddling that is foreign to Bluegrass, as long as it's done cleanly and in tune, and you can crank the tempo if needed.
So, I’m guessing - do you want us to also believe that if anyone wants to play real bluegrass fiddle – play it fast, and clean, and get respect of other bluegrassers – like you do – then we will need to learn to be a pattern down bower like you are.
I know better.
I'm kind of tired, so I'm mostly just going to focus on the part about there being much more to Bluegrass fiddle than the Old Time-influence fiddle tune part. I had an electric blues guitar mid-life crisis interest (cheaper than a sports car!) and I'm very aware of blues now, and like it a whole bunch.
The best Bluegrass fiddler in town is essentially a blues fiddler, and he can improvise blues over just about anything, and he does it WELL. I can't touch his playing in that department.
But, conversely, he knows I have him beat in the fiddle tune department, and in doing the drones and unisons thing.
I think we both want to get together to swap licks, and I think I would if my wife weren't so sick.
The thing about Bluegrass fiddle is that it's almost like four or five different flavors of fiddle.... you need to be versatile.
The Old Timey flavor, the Bluesy flavor.... a schmaltzy waltz flavor.... harmony fiddling. I think it's cool if you can keep those flavors distinct because different Bluegrass tunes go in stylistic directions, AND Bluegrass being performance music for an audience, you don't want them getting bored and saying everything sounds alike. The fiddle can do a lot towards keeping that from happening, because it's such a chameleon.
But the only part of Bluegrass fiddling I was talking about was Bluegrass fiddle TUNES.... I'm pretty sure I put the TUNES part in there at least once.
The main point was that the patterns help you bow efficiently to get up to Bluegrass fiddle tune speeds, if need be. Now, I don't actually WANT to that much, but if you can, it gives you a reserve of control, and that's nice to have in a lot of situations, and you never know when things will get sped up, accidentally, or intentionally. It's also nice to do one tune per gig really fast... there's some entertainment value in that, but I don't think your average person in an audience wants them ALL that fast!
Anyway, I remember back to when I was doing fiddle tunes anywhichway, and there was NO WAY I could play fast... there was always a "weakest link" in the bowing that would come unglued at a higher speed.
And actually, I've still got the same problem when I do Irish tunes, because I do them essentially anywhichway, although a pattern creeps in now and then for phrasing.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/23/2013: 21:11:11
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
So... we've been having 6 and one half years of bowing threads and debates.
Ya got me...
Sure feels like a decade though...
--OTJ
Yeah... time drags when you aren't having fun....
but you've only got yourself to blame for rubbernecking in bowing threads.... you could have spent the time more enjoyably starting threads on topics you actually LIKE!!!
But a lot of it is simply that you do get fellows like pdfarrell here. He's just starting out, and has questions about bowing... and he lives in NAMIBIA... and is probably the only person trying to play Old Time in the whole country. Sounds like a situation where a bowing thread MIGHT just be appropriate, eh??? Before that, Humbled just bumped this old thread, and we were having fun fooling around.... and then Mr. Farrell started asking real questions!
Tell you what, if you can just arrange for beginning fiddlers to NOT have bowing questions, you could totally eliminate bowing threads.
Good luck with that!!!
For some strange reason, they just aren't likely to have burning questions about Cyril Stinnett!!!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/23/2013: 21:16:00
quote: Originally posted by pdfarrell
Then would it be fair to say that there is less of a divide between the two camps when it comes to hornpipes?
By the way, "anywhichway" might carry a bit of a negative connotation. In my mind it doesn't sound too far above haphazard.
Haphazard Bowing.... what a GREAT IDEA!!! It definitely has a certain RING to it- thanks!
Why... that beats "anywhichway" ALL TO PIECES!!!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/23/2013: 21:43:25
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
So, I’m guessing - do you want us to also believe that if anyone wants to play real bluegrass fiddle – play it fast, and clean, and get respect of other bluegrassers – like you do – then we will need to learn to be a pattern down bower like you are.
I know better.
No, you'll need to be a real pattern bower like THEY ARE.
Like Dave Reiner said, THERE IS A GREATER VARIETY of patterns in Old Time than in Bluegrass. I have seen VERY few Bluegrass fiddlers where I couldn't read their bowing.... it tends to be:
1.Sawstroke (downbow oriented)
2. Georgia Shuffle (downbow oriented)
3. Nashville (downbow oriented)
4. Double Shuffle (downbow oriented)
4. Longbow slurs for subtle passages. (okay... this COULD actually be anywhichway!)
And, more often than not, they seem to use the same pattern throughout the whole break.
I actually don't want to become a Bluegrass fiddler that badly... that I would want to learn to play in the keys of B and E up the neck!
And I'm really not that hightly motivated to learn Double Shuffle.... or OBS!!!
I just want to play Old Time up to Bluegrass performance standards..... without adding slides, or subtracting more obscure and cool Old Time patterns.... and keeping the Old Time phrasing (Bluegrass phrasing can get kind of "floaty". I enjoy hearing that now and again, but I like Old Time phrasing better for the long haul)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/23/2013: 21:54:54
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
Well, it does kind of feel like a government program.
Hope that's not skirting too close to the prohibition on political comment. If it is, just delete it.
--OTJ
I fail to see the resemblance. This ain't "your tax dollars at work." No laws on the books about fiddle bowing.
No fines or jail terms.
Well.... maybe ONE resemblance. Gummint byurocratz produce pages and pages of eye-glazing reading material, and I guess I do too!
pdfarrell - Posted - 12/24/2013: 01:38:01
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
But a lot of it is simply that you do get fellows like pdfarrell here. He's just starting out, and has questions about bowing... and he lives in NAMIBIA... and is probably the only person trying to play Old Time in the whole country. Sounds like a situation where a bowing thread MIGHT just be appropriate, eh??? Before that, Humbled just bumped this old thread, and we were having fun fooling around.... and then Mr. Farrell started asking real questions!
Tell you what, if you can just arrange for beginning fiddlers to NOT have bowing questions, you could totally eliminate bowing threads.
Good luck with that!!!
For some strange reason, they just aren't likely to have burning questions about Cyril Stinnett!!!
Hope I'm not spoiling the fun... But it's true that this (FHO) is my only resource other than recordings. The advice here has been excellent. I'm pretty sure that I would have been developing bad habits if not for the advice here.
In my opinion it's not such hard work reading the bowing patterns here. The hard part is listening to my earlier versions of tunes and realizing that they need to be reworked.
I'll be in the bush for a few days without my fiddle and without internet. Enjoy the holidays all!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/24/2013: 03:28:58
Happy Holidays to all here and in Namibia! Some of us have enjoyed and learned a lot from all sides of the bowing discussion! It's like that gift for the fiddler who has everything!
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 12/24/2013: 11:15:42
I spent a lot of time with Brad Leftwich's two videos, even though OldTime isn't one of my favorite styles. I did that because Brad was the only source I could find who put a lot of effort into describing bowing choices, and I was badly in need of help ... I found all the freedom we have in the bowing of a fiddle to be very confusing and mysterious.
Since then, I've spent almost all of my fiddling time studying Texas-Style (plus a little Cajun). For that style, the REPETITIVE use of a number of full-measure patterns usually isn't pervasive. I think that's because the objectives and philosophies of OldTime vs Texas-Style are quite different. OldTime's origin was mostly accompaniment for dancers, who wanted a solid, repetitive rhythm, with no surprises. In contrast, Texas-Style values variation in both melody and rhythm, with lots of surprises that (hopefully) delight listeners. I DO see a lot of fragments (usually half-measure in length) getting constantly mixed and matched in Texas-Style, that I recognize from my study of patterns in Brad's videos. And I have perceived some "rules-of-thumb" in the bowing of Texas-Style. Maybe the simplist (and most useful) idea is to precede a note that you want to accent (by making it louder) with a 3-slur upbow, followed by the downbowed accented note. Thee-slurs are especially useful: they can replace a sequence of three sawed notes ANYWHERE, without reversing the bow directions on the notes that follow. I see them used everywhere, often even across the bar lines. Pogo's sawshuffle and smoothshuffle are examples of this, but in Texas-Style the location of those 3-slurs can be anywhere. 2-slurs are also used in Texas-Style, often when the last note in the measure happens to be downbowed: the first two (short) notes in the following measure are then played with an upbowed 2-slur, to get back "on direction". Alternatively, it is common to do a downbowed 2-slur from that last note into the first note of the following measure. I also see some fragments of Pogo's syncoshuffle here and there. Also, both Georgia and on-beat-Georgia show up a lot (but most often in half-measure fragments), as well as some offset 2-slurs, 4-slurs, and 5-slurs. Some sequences of sawed notes (almost always with downbows on the beat) are also common.
All-in-all, what I see in Texas-Style bowing is definitely not "anywhichway" ... I definitely see preferences in direction, and those commonly-encountered "rules-of-thumb". And I also commonly see the same kinds of "corrective action" being used to "get back on direction". But I rarely see any one type of bowing fragment being continued for multiple measures, and usually not even for a whole measure. Variety is "the spice" in Texas-Style.
Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 12/24/2013 11:22:08
tonyelder - Posted - 12/24/2013: 14:11:12
I really had intended to drop out of this discussion for a while. I’m trying to limit my contribution to the level of irritation that everyone seems to reach when it comes to these discussions.
But – I feel like there is something that I haven’t communicated very well. Please indulge me while I make another attempt. I apologize if it adds to your aggravation.
Every tune and every song has its own unique pattern of rhythm and melody. Screw up the melody and obviously the tune won’t be recognized. Screw up the rhythm and it still might be somewhat recognizable as long as the melody is there. But there is a point where a foreign or unfamiliar rhythmic pattern will ruin a melody – and make the tune unrecognizable.
To the issue of bowing patterns and the need for them.
I don’t give any thought to using a “generic” pattern with a name when I am playing a tune. That does not mean I’m not incorporating bowing patterns when I play. Out of sheer necessity, when I am learning a tune, I am studying the rhythmic patterns that were created by the bow as part of what made the tune unique and appealing. I don’t consider those unique rhythmic patterns to be separate entities, they are a part of the tune. Even if I end up creating my own unique bowing strategy, if I use it to recreate the unique rhythmic pattern that is repeated in the tune, then I am using a bowing pattern – it will be a pattern I will use again when I play that tune next time. What it is called or not called is irrelevant. But that method does not mean my bowing strategy is best described as “anywhichway”.
That is a learning exercise – they are patterns. And what that exercise produces may very well be a pattern that makes learning or playing other tunes in the future easier or more intuitive.
In that regard, I think we are all using bowing patterns when we play.
Having said that, I’m not interested in making an academic pursuit out of learning those bowing patterns for the purpose of conforming my every bow stroke to match any predetermined generic pattern that will be used for all tunes. I understand why others may want to do that – but that idea does not appeal to me. I don’t consider bowing patterns to be that generic; like a rubber stamp that should be used to imprint the same exact rhythmic pattern in any and every tune I play.
But to me - the bigger issue is: “Can I play the tune with a good approximation of the rhythmic feel and drive that makes this tune unique from all the other tunes? Is my rhythmic drive with the bow complimenting and helping to define the melody – or is it in conflict with the melody?” If it’s good – it’s good.
If you are able to do all that without making bowing patterns a separate learning discipline (and I think it is entirely possible), then you don’t need to include that in your “studies”. If you find that you can’t do that through your own efforts, then maybe you should ask someone – who can do what you want to do - to show you what they are doing.
And if they want to teach you a number of different bowing patterns / separate from the tunes – then I would strongly consider learning what they are willing to teach. If they are playing the way you want to play, and that is what they are willing to show you – then it means that it works for them. Maybe it will work for you too.
Now I’m through.
Merry Christmas!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/24/2013: 23:01:02
I don't think you "get it", but I'm beginning to think that only someone who thinks like a drummer would get it.
Drummers are like the shepherd dog of a band that herd the rhythmically straying sheep back into unity.
One of the reasons I took up drums is I realized that I think like a drummer. The melodies can be ever so great in a jam, but when you have three or more different versions of the rhythm going on, it's ruined- it's chaos and slop.
My take on it is that the absence of communities of musicians on the frontier forced drummers to become one-man-bands- and use drones for harmony and more volume, and bowed more rhythmically and aggressively to replace absent bodrans and such.
This forced fiddlers to think more like drummers, where the beat became as important as the melody... maybe a little more important.
Once you had other instruments, this made the fiddler the alpha, the one rhythmically herding the rest of the band.
In my effort to play drums, I'm realizing just HOW DIFFICULT it is to keep an impeccable rhythm going.
The fact that there is no melody means there is nothing to cover up or distract from rhythmic mistakes.
A basic tool in tightening up rhythm is repetition. When you have a repetitive phrase or rhythm, if you can't make the repetitions sound identical, you have a major problem. Now, you might not always WANT to make the repetitions sound identical, but you NEED to be able to do it. If you can't do it, you've proven that your control is lacking.
In Old Time fiddling, before there were guitars or mandolins or even banjos, there was just fiddle. And the direction changes got more aggressive and percussive... THAT was the drum. Repetitive bowings called patterns make the rhythm clear. With the addition of the other instruments, the pressure is off the fiddle to be so rhythmically precise, but IMO, the real timekeeper of the Old Time string band SHOULDN'T be anyone BUT the fiddler... the original Old Time style was built around a solo fiddle, and the added instruments don't really change that style.
One of the things I've been noticing practicing the drums is that you can only repeat the same thing so many times before you go nuts if it doesn't change.... there is this principle of tension and release.... the repetition builds tension, the variation releases it. It seems a real natural thing to do on drums is to repeat a groove 3 times, then do a variation for the final time. Coincidentally, this is just what the oldtimers did with "ending licks" on fiddle tunes.
It is SO common for oldtimer fiddlers to use either sawstroke or Nashville through most of the tune, and then do something else, often something syncopated for the last phrase. I have noticed that fiddlers who use Syncoshuffle often use it as an ending lick.
I am realizing that the Library of Congress American Fiddle Tunes album was a very formative recording for me. The fiddlers fiddled in a very archaic style, many on the Southern side were cross tuned. I haven't actually learned many of the tunes. What stuck with me was the crisp precision of their bowing that is both very danceable, but also a thing of beauty in it's own right. I think they must've been downbowers, because the fiddlers I know that get closest to that sound are downbowers.
Anyway, in that respect, I'm probably hopelessly stuck in the past.
So ignore the old geezer, mumbling about shuffles and with crumbs in his mustache!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 12/24/2013 23:02:45
GeeDubya - Posted - 12/25/2013: 05:07:45
Pogo, your thesis of drums to fiddles would get you in a fair amount of trouble from banjo players. One of the hallmarks of old-time rhythm and sound is the rhythms that came from Africa with that instrument. The various rhythmic insistences of the banjo and its open drone inform a huge amount of old-time. I would say that many of the bow licks we have been munching on now for 26 pages are the fiddle syncing itself with the banjo.
mad baloney - Posted - 12/25/2013: 05:47:27
Sure, as it applies to US old time music, although the 5 string banjo is about as common as the tuba when it comes to fiddle styles around the world.
GeeDubya - Posted - 12/25/2013: 08:13:35
Since most of Pogo's discussion has been about shuffles & patterns in American Old-time fiddling, that was my point. We probably can assume Nashville, Georgia, Synco, etc. didn't come over from Ireland. 
DougD - Posted - 12/25/2013: 08:25:35
IMHO, Irish music would be much better off it included the 5 string banjo instead of some of the stuff it has embraced! Just a little Christmas joke there, Brad, but it appears that the 5 string was the type of banjo first introduced to Irish music, at least according to Mick Moloney: standingstones.com/banjo.html
That sketch of the piper and the banjo player is something to ponder, to be sure.
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 12/25/2013: 08:48:58
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
Since most of Pogo's discussion has been about shuffles & patterns in American Old-time fiddling, that was my point. We probably can assume Nashville, Georgia, Synco, etc. didn't come over from Ireland.
No, they by and large came from South Yorkshire, England (named after the Angles though the Jutes and Saxons far, far outnumbered the Angles), though admittedly the IRISH in South Yorkshire were the ones primarily driving the "shuffles" in Sheffield. In point of fact--and the newbies here listen up and learn some history--the driving rhythms common to the fiddlers of this area became known as sheffields--which later became shuffles; however, the older documents from the early 1800s do not break the various "shuffles" down into Nashville nor Georgis, etc.
In pursuit of historical accuracy, always....
tonyelder - Posted - 12/26/2013: 12:53:55
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I don't think you "get it", but I'm beginning to think that only someone who thinks like a drummer would get it.
Drummers are like the shepherd dog of a band that herd the rhythmically straying sheep back into unity.
One of the reasons I took up drums is I realized that I think like a drummer. The melodies can be ever so great in a jam, but when you have three or more different versions of the rhythm going on, it's ruined- it's chaos and slop.
My take on it is that the absence of communities of musicians on the frontier forced drummers to become one-man-bands- and use drones for harmony and more volume, and bowed more rhythmically and aggressively to replace absent bodrans and such.
This forced fiddlers to think more like drummers, where the beat became as important as the melody... maybe a little more important.
Once you had other instruments, this made the fiddler the alpha, the one rhythmically herding the rest of the band.
In my effort to play drums, I'm realizing just HOW DIFFICULT it is to keep an impeccable rhythm going.
The fact that there is no melody means there is nothing to cover up or distract from rhythmic mistakes.
A basic tool in tightening up rhythm is repetition. When you have a repetitive phrase or rhythm, if you can't make the repetitions sound identical, you have a major problem. Now, you might not always WANT to make the repetitions sound identical, but you NEED to be able to do it. If you can't do it, you've proven that your control is lacking.
In Old Time fiddling, before there were guitars or mandolins or even banjos, there was just fiddle. And the direction changes got more aggressive and percussive... THAT was the drum. Repetitive bowings called patterns make the rhythm clear. With the addition of the other instruments, the pressure is off the fiddle to be so rhythmically precise, but IMO, the real timekeeper of the Old Time string band SHOULDN'T be anyone BUT the fiddler... the original Old Time style was built around a solo fiddle, and the added instruments don't really change that style.
One of the things I've been noticing practicing the drums is that you can only repeat the same thing so many times before you go nuts if it doesn't change.... there is this principle of tension and release.... the repetition builds tension, the variation releases it. It seems a real natural thing to do on drums is to repeat a groove 3 times, then do a variation for the final time. Coincidentally, this is just what the oldtimers did with "ending licks" on fiddle tunes.
It is SO common for oldtimer fiddlers to use either sawstroke or Nashville through most of the tune, and then do something else, often something syncopated for the last phrase. I have noticed that fiddlers who use Syncoshuffle often use it as an ending lick.
I am realizing that the Library of Congress American Fiddle Tunes album was a very formative recording for me. The fiddlers fiddled in a very archaic style, many on the Southern side were cross tuned. I haven't actually learned many of the tunes. What stuck with me was the crisp precision of their bowing that is both very danceable, but also a thing of beauty in it's own right. I think they must've been downbowers, because the fiddlers I know that get closest to that sound are downbowers.
Anyway, in that respect, I'm probably hopelessly stuck in the past.
So ignore the old geezer, mumbling about shuffles and with crumbs in his mustache!
Our discussion isn’t about a band dynamics and it isn’t about poor musicianship at jams. A fiddler doesn’t need to take up drumming in order to understand the principles you are alluding to. This isn’t about tension and release. This isn’t about a person’s lack of control over the bow.
Our discussion is about whether or not a person will have to learn bowing patterns before they can really learn to play old time fiddle tunes. Part of that discussion has been - to determine - how important was it to the old time fiddlers from the past that we are we are emulating. Did they talk about patterns, teach them, or in general promoted the importance of learning and mastering them as a separate effort – apart from learning to play tunes?
Consider this information, taken from another book that seems to counter the ideas you want me to believe:
Hill Country Tunes; Instrumental Folk Music of Southwestern Pennsylvania; Collected and Edited by Samuel Preston Bayard; American Folklore Society; Philadelphia, 1944
mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/tunes/hct/
Page 15 of Introduction
The rural violinist learns to use his instrument by trying to play the tunes he hears, not by practicing exercises; although he undoubtedly learns much by observing and taking informal lessons from other fiddlers. Apparently his principal intent is to master the notes and rhythms of his airs, tone-quality, as we understand it , is incidental…
Individual playing mannerisms abound.
Indeed, individual habit and fancy appear to rule or modify traditional fiddling technique in practically all details.
Page 24 of Introduction.
In former days, when the fiddlers were unavailable for a local dance the company sang dance airs in simplified – sometimes abbreviated – forms, to improvised or traditional rhymes. Many times now have these rhymes associated with them, sometimes giving them tune its title, sometime weaving the title into the verse. In singing games and play-parties these tunes were also used freely. Thus, in western Pennsylvania, the distinction between play party tunes (sung) and dance tunes (played on instruments) is very tenuous, if it exists at all.
Please do take the time to read the Preface and Introduction and see if I overlooked anything that alludes to how important bowing patterns might have been to them.
It is worth noting that there is as much said (if not more) about the melodies of the tunes they played as there is about the rhythm they used to play the tunes. There is no over emphasis. There is a lot of discussion about how they played - in fairly good amount of detail.
And yes, in my opinion this perspective on traditional fiddling was about as comprehensive as you could get for that day – on the most important characteristics of the old time fiddling for that part of the country.
Page 30 of Notes on Players
The few statements that can be made about the folk musicians who played this music admittedly do justice neither to their personalities nor their talents. All of them were genial and helpful to the collector, and, as genuine lovers of the old music, were glad to see an attempt made to preserve it by notation. Thus, they full shared the collector’s anxiety to get their tunes recorded accurately, and did not spare time, effort, or information to that end. As collaborators, therefore, they deserve equal recognition with the collector, for their own sakes and for that of the tradition they preserve – on which, it is hoped, these notes may throw a little more light.
According to the author – the fiddlers were very engaged in this effort to preserve this history. I would suggest that if patterns were important to them back then, it would have been mentioned somewhere by at least one of them.
And PLEASE - do remember – I am not saying folks should avoid learning bowing patterns. I repeat - I never have said that. I’m saying they don’t need to think that it is necessary or that it is the only way they will ever be a good old time fiddler. Their chances are better than "slim to none".
I'm going to try to stop - again. Thanks for your patience.
Edited by - tonyelder on 12/26/2013 13:05:09
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/26/2013: 13:09:07
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
Since most of Pogo's discussion has been about shuffles & patterns in American Old-time fiddling, that was my point. We probably can assume Nashville, Georgia, Synco, etc. didn't come over from Ireland.
Well, the names didn't. And actually the melodic phrasing long-short-short, long-short-short doesn't occur that much in Irish melodies, but it does occur. You can see the melodic phrasing more often in Scottish fiddling though, and the bowing that accompanies it, in Fairy Dance, for instance. But a lot of saw stroke too.
I have also seen melodies that force the Nashville bowing in:
Swedish fiddle tunes and a German childrens song.
And I have seen it said that it's an important feature of polkas.
Apparently what is called reverse Georgia Shuffle is found in English fiddling and is used in Scottish fiddling as a strathspey bowing, according to a book by a famous but controversial Scottish fiddler whose name I forget.
I have seen Irish Trad fiddlers use Georgia Shuffle.... but one was a Scotswoman, and the other was an Englishman! Were they being Trad when they did that, or innovative???
Anyway, th
So.... the patterns, or at least some of them can be found in European fiddling, and that is one of the I prefer descriptive names like "Syncoshuffle" to geographical names, which sound kind of absurd!
Lee M - Posted - 12/26/2013: 13:20:55
Fiddlepogo..I don't normally get into these bowing discussions, but I will say that when I use the Long-short-short bowing pattern when playing Irish music (without emphasizing it as a shuffle) it is Magic.. That bowing pattern really makes notey passages much easier to play... Just my short comment indicating that I agree with at least one sentence of you comment .
Edited by - Lee M on 12/26/2013 13:22:17
fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/26/2013: 14:41:22
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
Pogo, your thesis of drums to fiddles would get you in a fair amount of trouble from banjo players. One of the hallmarks of old-time rhythm and sound is the rhythms that came from Africa with that instrument. The various rhythmic insistences of the banjo and its open drone inform a huge amount of old-time. I would say that many of the bow licks we have been munching on now for 26 pages are the fiddle syncing itself with the banjo.
You may have forgotten that I'm a clawhammer banjo player myself...
and I HAVE pointed out that there may be a clawhammer banjo influence on the preference of the Old Time oldtimers for down-up down-up sawstroke... IOW, for the downbowing orientation. This is because the notes played with the nail have a natural accetnt, just like down-up, down-up played with a loose wrist tends to give you a slight accent on the odd numbered short strokes. The result is a bounciness that I like in both clawhammer playing and fiddling.
When I was just learning to play clawhammer banjo, I attended a jam session that included both Bluegrassers and Old Time players. One was a clawhammer banjo player who was the very first melodic clawhammer player I encountered, and he was even perhaps MORE extreme than John Burke, who wrote a book of melodic clawhammer tune tablatures.
This fellow used a THUMBPICK to play clawhammer with. The result was that he could play these perfect seamless banjo duets with a melodic 3 fingered Bluegrass player, because the thumbpick made the thumb note stronger in relation to the nail notes, and he could then play as evenly as the melodic 3 fingered player. I didn't like it that much, because I LIKED the bounce. And I hear Upbowers and Anywhichwaybowers tending to accent, or rather NOT accent sawstroke that way, and I don't like it either... I miss the bounce! Now if you LIKE it even like that, well, fine for you!
But all that is just sawstroke.
It's well known that the bump-ditty pattern is analogous to Nashville Shuffle.
You can also easily reverse it to get what I call the Jingle Bells shuffle rhythm- short-short-long, short-short long.
And you can get long-long-long-long, the equivalent of two note slurs.
But none of that is particularly African sounding or particularly complex, and it doesn't begin to suggest what the fiddle can do with slurs.
And to my mind, it doesn't suggest the hemiola effect (melodic figures of 3's into 4/4 and 2/4) that underlie many of my favorite patterns (as well as Double Shuffle)
DRUMS, however, DOES suggest slurs by putting several notes on the same stick, making them even, and so behaving more as a unit.
Fingerpicked banjo, DOES also suggest the hemiola effect, which was a big part of Ragtime, and got absorbed into Bluegrass.
One of the strange things on early African American music was this:
You had tribespeople whose culture was very drum-oriented being kidnapped- and then were forbidden to have drums, because there was a fear on the part of the slaveholders that the drums could be used to communicate as part of coordinating a slave revolt. (This fear would have been as much from their knowledge of European military history as their limited knowledge of African culture- the rudiments started to be codified in Europe by the Swiss as tactical commands to the pikemen who were the bulk of the Swiss Guards. So Europeans knew drums could be used for VERY specific battlefield commands)
But the slaves were allowed banjos, which were very quiet, and which had a drumhead, and the slave population continued to have fresh kidnappees from Africa for at least until the English outlawed the slave trade.... who would have refreshed the slaves' knowledge of African drumming, possibly using the banjo heads as quiet, secret drums to practice on.
Once the slaves were freed or ran away, the prohibition on drums was no longer in effect. There is at least one field recording of African American fife and DRUM playing in some southern state. You also had rather complex hand clapping going on, which would have preserved the knowledge of African rhythms.
Anyway, what I'm heading towards is that the complexity of African rhythms wasn't fully conveyed by clawhammer banjo, and the complexity of the slurring in fiddle bowing is unlikely to result from clawhammer banjo.... so I see the fiddle bowings as either being a direct application of African drumming lore to the fiddle, by fiddlers born in Africa, or who had been schooled in the lore by those born in Africa... OR.... slaves with musical talent who were chosen to be taught Scottish, Irish and English fiddle tunes for dances would have encountered the Nashville phrasing in tunes like Fairy Dance and the Reverse Georgia in English tunes and Scottish strathspeys, and would have sensed the potential these phrasings had for expressing African rhythms, very likely with a change of accents. When played by Scottish fiddlers in the context of a melody that phrases that way, "Nashville" sounds very straight, very tight, and very European. Most Old Time players play it in a looser way, and some of them accent the backbeat, and Georgia Shuffle is DESIGNED to accentuate the backbeat.... and THAT accentuation I see as being the result of an African influence.
Anyway, once again, the origins are lost in history because the people involved were so often illiterate- in this case many were intentionally KEPT illiterate.
But when I was making the point of equivalency of drum rudiments with bowing patterns, I wasn't really making any point or suggestions about ORIGINS. What I was pointing out is that there is a similarity of function, and a similarity of actual rhythms. (And actually I was doing that in a different thread).
I'm finding, as I learn drums, that my pattern orientation prepares me perfectly for learning rolls and paradiddles.... and it allows me to focus on sticking patterns ONE by ONE, and then, as they get natural and "subconcious" or "intuitive" or "programmed into muscle memory" I can apply them like I do a pattern that I have learned to the same degree.
One of the common threads between bowing patterns and drum rudiments is the issue of multitasking. If a bowing follows the melody note for note, there isn't much happening in the way of multitasking, and when a drum rudiment is played on a single drum or practice pad, the multitasking is at a low level.
BUT, sometimes patterns are used in a way in Old Time that is kind of contrapuntal to the rhythm of the melody. This is HARD to do... unless you've memorized a pattern..... or know the tune so well that you don't have to think about it, then are rhythmically gifted enough to impose a rhythmic counterpoint against the melody.
In the same way once you involve the feet, and start playing the rudiments on multiple drum surfaces (spreading it out to the toms and cymbals first of all) it requires a level of multitasking that is difficult to accomplish for an average person unless they have the sequence of hits memorized in a rudiment.
In effect (and I've heard at least one drummer say this right out) the multitasking that drummers do is only APPARENT- at least for many drummers. It's more common to learn a rudimental pattern and apply it to multiple drums, and this LOOKS like multitasking, but it really isn't.
And that's what my putting patterns "on a backburner" thing is all about. Sauteed onions have to be cooked first before being added, and bowing patterns need to be memorized by heart before they can effectively be added to a tune. This allows you to add a rhythm and not mangle the melody.
More later.... off to a gig!
dsreiner - Posted - 01/01/2014: 12:53:06
quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec
Fiddlepogo..I don't normally get into these bowing discussions, but I will say that when I use the Long-short-short bowing pattern when playing Irish music (without emphasizing it as a shuffle) it is Magic.. That bowing pattern really makes notey passages much easier to play... Just my short comment indicating that I agree with at least one sentence of you comment .
Hi Lee-
You might also try slurring into the beat to get more of a lilt into your Irish tunes.
For example, d u d u U d D u on a notey tune like Maid Behind the Bar. Or you might say short - short - short - lo-ng - lo-ng - short
Or, d u U d D... to start off Cooley's Reel. Short - lo-ng - lo-ng...
Best,
Dave
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/01/2014: 23:38:55
quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec
Fiddlepogo..I don't normally get into these bowing discussions, but I will say that when I use the Long-short-short bowing pattern when playing Irish music (without emphasizing it as a shuffle) it is Magic.. That bowing pattern really makes notey passages much easier to play... Just my short comment indicating that I agree with at least one sentence of you comment .
That's the basic idea I'm getting into for Irish tunes, but what if you ALSO had short-long-short, long short-short available, and short-long-short, short-long-short,,,, AND lo-o-ong-lo-o-ong-short-short available, and didn't emphasize ANY of them as a shuffle, but just used them where they fit.... I think you would find it even MORE magical.... especially if you had enough background listening to accent or NOT accent in the right places.
The plus of course with Nashville is that you are familiar enough with it to PHRASE it... for any pattern to be used in that way, you have to be familiar enough with it, and have sufficient control over it to phrase it.
With Irish tunes, if someone is aware you are using a pattern (without you telling them) you're probably doing it wrong!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/02/2014: 00:33:34
quote:
Originally posted by tonyelder
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
I don't think you "get it", but I'm beginning to think that only someone who thinks like a drummer would get it.
Drummers are like the shepherd dog of a band that herd the rhythmically straying sheep back into unity.
One of the reasons I took up drums is I realized that I think like a drummer. The melodies can be ever so great in a jam, but when you have three or more different versions of the rhythm going on, it's ruined- it's chaos and slop.
My take on it is that the absence of communities of musicians on the frontier forced drummers to become one-man-bands- and use drones for harmony and more volume, and bowed more rhythmically and aggressively to replace absent bodrans and such.
This forced fiddlers to think more like drummers, where the beat became as important as the melody... maybe a little more important.
Once you had other instruments, this made the fiddler the alpha, the one rhythmically herding the rest of the band.
In my effort to play drums, I'm realizing just HOW DIFFICULT it is to keep an impeccable rhythm going.
The fact that there is no melody means there is nothing to cover up or distract from rhythmic mistakes.
A basic tool in tightening up rhythm is repetition. When you have a repetitive phrase or rhythm, if you can't make the repetitions sound identical, you have a major problem. Now, you might not always WANT to make the repetitions sound identical, but you NEED to be able to do it. If you can't do it, you've proven that your control is lacking.
In Old Time fiddling, before there were guitars or mandolins or even banjos, there was just fiddle. And the direction changes got more aggressive and percussive... THAT was the drum. Repetitive bowings called patterns make the rhythm clear. With the addition of the other instruments, the pressure is off the fiddle to be so rhythmically precise, but IMO, the real timekeeper of the Old Time string band SHOULDN'T be anyone BUT the fiddler... the original Old Time style was built around a solo fiddle, and the added instruments don't really change that style.
One of the things I've been noticing practicing the drums is that you can only repeat the same thing so many times before you go nuts if it doesn't change.... there is this principle of tension and release.... the repetition builds tension, the variation releases it. It seems a real natural thing to do on drums is to repeat a groove 3 times, then do a variation for the final time. Coincidentally, this is just what the oldtimers did with "ending licks" on fiddle tunes.
It is SO common for oldtimer fiddlers to use either sawstroke or Nashville through most of the tune, and then do something else, often something syncopated for the last phrase. I have noticed that fiddlers who use Syncoshuffle often use it as an ending lick.
I am realizing that the Library of Congress American Fiddle Tunes album was a very formative recording for me. The fiddlers fiddled in a very archaic style, many on the Southern side were cross tuned. I haven't actually learned many of the tunes. What stuck with me was the crisp precision of their bowing that is both very danceable, but also a thing of beauty in it's own right. I think they must've been downbowers, because the fiddlers I know that get closest to that sound are downbowers.
Anyway, in that respect, I'm probably hopelessly stuck in the past.
So ignore the old geezer, mumbling about shuffles and with crumbs in his mustache!
Our discussion isn’t about a band dynamics and it isn’t about poor musicianship at jams. A fiddler doesn’t need to take up drumming in order to understand the principles you are alluding to. This isn’t about tension and release. This isn’t about a person’s lack of control over the bow.
Our discussion is about whether or not a person will have to learn bowing patterns before they can really learn to play old time fiddle tunes. Part of that discussion has been - to determine - how important was it to the old time fiddlers from the past that we are we are emulating. Did they talk about patterns, teach them, or in general promoted the importance of learning and mastering them as a separate effort – apart from learning to play tunes?
Consider this information, taken from another book that seems to counter the ideas you want me to believe:
Hill Country Tunes; Instrumental Folk Music of Southwestern Pennsylvania; Collected and Edited by Samuel Preston Bayard; American Folklore Society; Philadelphia, 1944
mne.psu.edu/lamancusa/tunes/hct/
Page 15 of Introduction
The rural violinist learns to use his instrument by trying to play the tunes he hears, not by practicing exercises; although he undoubtedly learns much by observing and taking informal lessons from other fiddlers. Apparently his principal intent is to master the notes and rhythms of his airs, tone-quality, as we understand it , is incidental…
Individual playing mannerisms abound.
Indeed, individual habit and fancy appear to rule or modify traditional fiddling technique in practically all details.
Page 24 of Introduction.
In former days, when the fiddlers were unavailable for a local dance the company sang dance airs in simplified – sometimes abbreviated – forms, to improvised or traditional rhymes. Many times now have these rhymes associated with them, sometimes giving them tune its title, sometime weaving the title into the verse. In singing games and play-parties these tunes were also used freely. Thus, in western Pennsylvania, the distinction between play party tunes (sung) and dance tunes (played on instruments) is very tenuous, if it exists at all.
Please do take the time to read the Preface and Introduction and see if I overlooked anything that alludes to how important bowing patterns might have been to them.
It is worth noting that there is as much said (if not more) about the melodies of the tunes they played as there is about the rhythm they used to play the tunes. There is no over emphasis. There is a lot of discussion about how they played - in fairly good amount of detail.
And yes, in my opinion this perspective on traditional fiddling was about as comprehensive as you could get for that day – on the most important characteristics of the old time fiddling for that part of the country.
Page 30 of Notes on Players
The few statements that can be made about the folk musicians who played this music admittedly do justice neither to their personalities nor their talents. All of them were genial and helpful to the collector, and, as genuine lovers of the old music, were glad to see an attempt made to preserve it by notation. Thus, they full shared the collector’s anxiety to get their tunes recorded accurately, and did not spare time, effort, or information to that end. As collaborators, therefore, they deserve equal recognition with the collector, for their own sakes and for that of the tradition they preserve – on which, it is hoped, these notes may throw a little more light.
According to the author – the fiddlers were very engaged in this effort to preserve this history. I would suggest that if patterns were important to them back then, it would have been mentioned somewhere by at least one of them.
And PLEASE - do remember – I am not saying folks should avoid learning bowing patterns. I repeat - I never have said that. I’m saying they don’t need to think that it is necessary or that it is the only way they will ever be a good old time fiddler. Their chances are better than "slim to none".
I'm going to try to stop - again. Thanks for your patience.
Sorry.... I missed this somehow.... OR... maybe I was a bit burnt out.
You're citing Bayard. It's about Southwest Pennsylvania fiddling. You can't really generalize his statements beyond that.
And, as it happens, we DO have a visual record of what oldtimers were sounding like in just about that area in the early 70's.
youtube.com/watch?v=7chdbQXUR2Y
From what I can see, most of the old guys (who would have been contemporaries of Tommy Jarrell, give or take a couple of years- born around 1900.)
used sawstroke. The Bluegrass fiddler in the film doesn't, and the one hoedown fiddler in front of the microphone doesn't (and it's hard to say, but neither seem to represent a local style very much), but all the rest seem to be pretty consistent at being downbowing saw stroke fiddlers.
THAT is a bowing strategy that really isn't hard to imitate when you hear it, let alone when you hear AND see it, AND it's also very melodic... which would dovetail with Bayard's description of their focusing on the melody.
Anyway, in my experience sawstroke fiddlers are exactly the ones that have the least interest in patterns.... although some of them do use them, they occur in such short bursts that they are hard for me to detect, since they may only take up half a measure. Since they are so short, the fiddlers themselves may not be aware of what they are doing.... but one of the aspects of their consistent sawstroke is this:
IF they use down-up sawstroke all the time they are sawstroking, and never get turned around to use up-down sawstroking, the short slurring strategies they do use CAN'T be the 50% of bowing moves that WOULD get you turned around. And when you actually look at what those moves are, they turn out to be very predictable patterns-
Georgia Shuffle, two note slurs, Downbeat Georgia Shuffle or Nashville Shuffle.
It's like the combination of downbowing and the accent patterns of the dance rhythms preclude everything but a small number of recognizable patterns.
Now.... it may have been mathematics and a feel for the rhythms that cause them to do just those patterns, but in my experience, if you don't use the same bowing strategies as another fiddler does, you are likely to get a VERY DIFFERENT rhythmic feel. So if you want to get the same rhythmic feel, some "reverse engineering" may be in order- that is, analyze the bowings1
If someone wanted to learn how to do Southwest Pennsylvania fiddling, this video would be a good primer on how they bowed.
However, this style is not what drives me as far as bowing, although I'd be willing to learn a tune from them or Bayard if I liked it. I'm way more interested in how Tommy Jarrell and Melvin Wine bowed... or Bunt Stephens.... or Luther Strong or William Stepp- my favorites haven't changed much as far as Old Time since I joined here in 2007.
One of the things that drives me on an instrument is that I'm not that interested in doing the same thing on several instruments.
Once I learned to fiddle, I wanted my fiddling to contrast with and do MORE than I could do on banjo... because I'd been doing LOTS of bump-ditty, and the first fiddler I played with used Nashville almost exclusively, I got tired of it and wanted something different.
And about that time, I did get interested in Doc Watson and was learning how to flatpick. Since sawstroke on fiddle is most analogous to flatpicking, it was the OTHER least interesting bowing strategy to me besides Nashville.
That meant that my focus and drive has been on EVERY OTHER TRADITIONAL BOWING STRATEGY BESIDES NASHVILLE AND SAWSTROKE.
Thus my focus on guys who had something different going on like Tommy Jarrell and Melvin Wine.
I admit-- I'm biased.... biased towards unusual fiddlers who have unusual (but still traditional) bowing strategies.
And in my experience, the only reliable ways of imitating those unusual bowing strategies is to break down the moves analytically, or to imitate the moves intuitively without counting.... and having tried both, I think breaking down the moves analytically is more reliable.
If someone is content to sound like a sawstroke fiddler, or a Nashville based fiddler, yeah, I'd say the bowing analysis is largely unnecessary, because those strategies are so obvious. But then, I would MISS the one or two times that some unusual bowing occurred in the original!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/02/2014: 05:24:50
Here's something from a freezing amateur: yes I'm freezing but the coffee' s hot...anyway...I first heard about bowing patterns here, and thought there was something to it--- it is unfolding the secrets of carefree, energetic playing ( not necessarily fast, just energetic)... I'd heard of playing taters ( Nashville Shuffle-- long short short, etc.) and like Clawhammer, I have no idea where the rhythm cane from, but seems very natural to do and pretty easy to learn. But...somewhere along the way people learn it...and somebody named it to just define it more for people learning it. Bum diddy didn't always exist either...but it's been helpful for people wrapping their minds around Clawhammer. But then people who play a lot and are really good get clever with messin with that natural rhythm, in their own way. I think, in my own amateur mind...that seems to be the origins of more advanced shuffles or patterns ... It's true in banjo too. Why can't you sound as energetic as somebody else? Because you aren't playing with the rhythmic flow like they are able to do. I think ( from being around lots of BG people in the past couple years) people sometimes might mistaken rhythmic energy for speed...they skip over that element and speed everything up to get that energy. This is just my opinion right at the moment and could very well be flat out wrong! I'm not saying don't play fast, but I'm saying I think speed and rhythm are two separate issues to deal with. A while back after reading and thinking a lot about bowing, I bought the Brad Leftwich videos--- totally unhelpful to me...I can't think of it that isolated, that analyzed. To me, it's better for me personally to see the unit...like, instead of d-udu-du, or maybe two sets of those as a unit, I have to think of something else as a replacement unit, or part of the unit. Somebody just saying directions drives me crazy and I cany learn anything that way. But the value of patterns/shuffles seems to me to be the ability to take a natural rhythmic base ( taters-Nashville Shuffle or bum diddy) and get unexpectedly clever with it...give it some energy not related to the speed of the playing. How you learn this is up for grabs!
Pathfinder - Posted - 01/02/2014: 05:43:02
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
But the value of patterns/shuffles seems to me to be the ability to take a natural rhythmic base ( taters-Nashville Shuffle or bum diddy) and get unexpectedly clever with it...give it some energy not related to the speed of the playing. How you learn this is up for grabs!
Do you think this fellow from Kentucky is being clever? He represents one of the smoothest fiddlers I ever heard. This is a nice video of his bow and touch.
youtube.com/watch?v=oQ4mFmJsfE8
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/02/2014: 07:35:05
Yes...extremely clever with his rhythms and bowing! One of the best. I'm not too far from the festival he started, but never have had the time + money to get to it yet. Maybe in 2014! Great example of some great bowing!
fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 01/02/2014: 08:27:45
In quantum bowing, the uncertainty principle is any of a variety of up and down inequalities asserting a fundamental limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties of a bow known as complementary variables, such as position xand momentum p, can be known simultaneously. For instance, the more precisely the position of some bow is determined, the less precisely its momentum can be known, and vice versa.[1] The formal inequality relating the standard deviation of position σxand the standard deviation of momentum σp was derived by Earle Hesse Kennard[2] later that year and by Hermann Weyl[3] in 1928,
where ħ is the reduced Planck constant.
The original heuristic argument that such a limit to bowing should exist was given by Werner Heisenberg in 1927, after whom it is sometimes named the Heisenberg bowing principle. This ascribes the uncertainty in measurable quantities to the Nashville-like disturbance triggered by the act of observation and analysis of up and downing of the bow.
fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 01/02/2014: 08:33:05
quote:
Originally posted by Pathfinder
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
But the value of patterns/shuffles seems to me to be the ability to take a natural rhythmic base ( taters-Nashville Shuffle or bum diddy) and get unexpectedly clever with it...give it some energy not related to the speed of the playing. How you learn this is up for grabs!
Do you think this fellow from Kentucky is being clever? He represents one of the smoothest fiddlers I ever heard. This is a nice video of his bow and touch.
youtube.com/watch?v=oQ4mFmJsfE8
I carry a photo of JP in my fiddle case for inspiration.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/02/2014: 11:45:39
quote:
Originally posted by Pathfinder
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
But the value of patterns/shuffles seems to me to be the ability to take a natural rhythmic base ( taters-Nashville Shuffle or bum diddy) and get unexpectedly clever with it...give it some energy not related to the speed of the playing. How you learn this is up for grabs!
Do you think this fellow from Kentucky is being clever? He represents one of the smoothest fiddlers I ever heard. This is a nice video of his bow and touch.
youtube.com/watch?v=oQ4mFmJsfE8
There's a whole lot of Syncoshuffle in J.P.'s bowing on Dusty Miller in the video.
I guess you could put it this way- Sawstroke is the meat of Old Time bowin, and Nashville is the 'taters (appropriately enough).... and the other bowings like Syncoshuffle are like salt and pepper or chilis and onions to spice it up.
In my actual diet, I'm allergic to most spices, and believe me, it gets BORING.
But my fiddle bowing I can have as spicy as I want!
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