Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.fiddlehangout.com/archive/233/16
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2014: 18:50:23
quote:
Originally posted by OTJunky
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Question for Pogo or anyone else who has an answer: if John Morris, in the Soldier's Joy link a few posts above...if he doesn't have some elusive, elaborate bowing schemes indiscernible to me ( pogo saying it doesn't actually look too complicated) ...what is it about his playing...what is he doing that makes him so great? What is that element of great fiddlng he has mastered...why does his fiddling just slam ya in the guts ( meant in a good way...lol...lack of words) like it does? How do fiddlers do that? I really think he's about the best I've ever heard, but I can't tell ya why... This is the sound I hear echoing in my soul--- this is what I wanted when I decided to quit messin around and learn to fiddle--- this is the sound, to me, of the old timers who lived a couple of generations back... It's surprising to me to hear a contemporary person of our time who has captured, held true, and carried this sound.
My take on this is that there's more to fiddling than changes in bow direction.
There is note choice. No two fiddlers play the exactly the notes on the same fiddle tune.
There are also choices about which notes to emphasize. Some notes are played louder than other notes - using more bow pressure and speed. That's why even a Nashville Shuffle can have a different sound when played by two different fiddlers.
Both these things are entertwined with the bowing. So the notes you decide to use can be influenced by the bowing you want to use and vice versa; The notes you want to emphasize can be influenced by the bowing you want to use and vice versa. The notes you decide to use can be influenced by where you want to put emphasis in the tune and vice versa.
Yet another dimension to fiddling has to do with when and where you want to put slides (hit the minor third and slide up to the major third) and/or primes (open string against the same note stopped on the next lower string).
I think a master fiddler like John Morris has learned to integrate all these different things (note choice, emphasis, slides, unisons, and bowing) in the way the old time fiddlers before him did it and so has developed an old time fiddling style of his own that resonates with the fiddling tradition where he learned.
Much of my objection to these never ending bowing threads is that, IMO, they focus obsessively on just one aspect of old time fiddling; and don't include much about the interplay between note choice; note emphasis, and the usual fiddling idioms like slides and unisons that are in my experience such essential parts of the Southern U.S. old time fiddling traditions.
I doubt that even John Morris can explain to you in words how he fiddles. I think that if you want to play like him the only way to do it is to listen to him play, watch him play, and try to make the sounds he makes until you can. I'm pretty sure that's how he learned to do it.
Of course, you'll never play exactly like him because invariably you'll have different opinions about how a tune should be played and different physical abilities than he has. But probably you'll get to a point where you've incorporated enough of his sound that you like your own fiddling - as well or better than you like his - and there's not much to be had beyond that...
--OTJ (FHO Luddite in residence)
Really a lot here I agree with... yeah, there is a whole bunch more to fiddling than bowing, but it's ALL DEPENDENT on the bowing- except the occasional left hand pizzicato. If you're bowing is scrambled up, out of synch, completely and utterly grooveless, or whatever nobody is really gonna care about your nice slides.
And the fact is, that we seldom get people asking about those things. One reason for that is that the stuff that is pitch-based is relatively easy to hear and imitate. No questions, therefore no ensuing discussion. If you could JUST arrange for those annoying
noob and intermediate fiddlers to stop asking annoyingly repetitive bowing questions, and if you could JUST stop that annoying Humbled fellow from bumping bowing threads, MAYBE you could get your respite from "interminable bowing threads".
Good luck... you're going to NEED it!
You ALSO have the option of creating your own thread, like this:
fiddlehangout.com/topic/36131
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2014: 19:15:53
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
Yeah. But somebody keeps bumping this thread, bj most likely I'm guessing (though haven't heard nor seen hide, fiddle, nor hair of her in long time....)
There are things that go bump in the night.... and bowing threads are one of them when Humbled can't sleep!!!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2014: 19:42:24
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
I hope Fiddlepogo never stops. Go another 30 pages!
However.... think about it.... if you'd been here on the Fiddle Hangout since summer 2007, you just might be tired of "interminable bowing threads" TOO!!!
pdfarrell - Posted - 01/18/2014: 17:17:51
So, I go back to one of my very first posts. And that was: do you map out your bowing for a tune or do you wing it (had never heard the term "anywhichway" at the time).
I have found that i like to be on a down bow to start a measure, so patterns are good for me.
On one hand I see someone like Melvin Wine, great rhythm, always downbowing at the start of a measure.
On the other hand I hear someone like John Hartford and I can't find any patterns. I would like to play intuitively, unconciously, like that.
So, learning some of the patterns here ( synco and saw shuffle) has added a bit of spontaneity. It's a bit counterintuitive.But it's true: patterns open up rhythmic choices.
Because of the analysis of patterns I see more now where the measure starts. I can stick in a different shuffle in place of Nashville (depends a bit on string changes, but I'm tryin to shuffle through string changes sometimes)
So this thread shouldn't be laid to rest. It's very useful for new folks. And entertaining for all I'm sure.
Edited by - pdfarrell on 01/18/2014 17:20:09
pdfarrell - Posted - 01/18/2014: 17:34:34
I doubt that even John Morris can explain to you in words how he fiddles. I think that if you want to play like him the only way to do it is to listen to him play, watch him play, and try to make the sounds he makes until you can. I'm pretty sure that's how he learned to do it.
--OTJ (FHO Luddite in residence)
If it is beyond words then I guess a forum is useless. But I would be surprised if he doesn't have some words on the matter.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/18/2014: 18:14:59
Well I believe the ideal situation might be that you are aware of patterns ( Nashville, synco, etc., etc. etc.), and comfortable with them enough that you can hear music in those terms, or bow them out without having to think...and that your starting bow is one direction, and whatever you throw in the middle lands you with the ending bow in the opposite direction...the middle being a free-for-all, on the wing mix of bowings that in themselves begin one way and end going the opposite way so that it all falls into place good. To me, memorizing patterns to fit into a tune would drive me crazy, although some tunes I play do end up being bowed about the same way, but it's become habit, I didn't plan them out that way.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2014: 21:55:35
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
So, I go back to one of my very first posts. And that was: do you map out your bowing for a tune or do you wing it (had never heard the term "anywhichway" at the time).
I have found that i like to be on a down bow to start a measure, so patterns are good for me.
On one hand I see someone like Melvin Wine, great rhythm, always downbowing at the start of a measure.
On the other hand I hear someone like John Hartford and I can't find any patterns. I would like to play intuitively, unconciously, like that.
So, learning some of the patterns here ( synco and saw shuffle) has added a bit of spontaneity. It's a bit counterintuitive.But it's true: patterns open up rhythmic choices.
Because of the analysis of patterns I see more now where the measure starts. I can stick in a different shuffle in place of Nashville (depends a bit on string changes, but I'm tryin to shuffle through string changes sometimes)
So this thread shouldn't be laid to rest. It's very useful for new folks. And entertaining for all I'm sure.
"It's a bit counterintuitive.But it's true: patterns open up rhythmic choices."
PD, I couldn't have said that better myself!!!
Still, I have to admit... when I saw there was activity in this thread, my immediate reaction was: "OH NO!!!
"
Bowing threads here inevitably involve debate, and debate is, quite frankly, mentally and emotionally exhausting.
Among other things, because I find myself in conflict with people who most of the rest of the time here on the Fiddle Hangout I am NOT in conflict with, and fairly often find myself clicking "Like" on their posts. But we certainly disagree on bowing.... and have for 6 and a half years now.
Idea: Why don't you BLOG about your bowing. And we can discuss bowing to our hearts content in the comments.
Maybe in another 6 months I'll be ready for another bowing debate... not quite yet, though!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2014: 22:31:34
Re John Hartford's bowing.... last time I listened to one of the videos of him on YouTube, I was struck by how differently we bow a tune. He has a fairly Old Time melodic concept of fiddle tunes, but his bowing to me is very Bluegrass in that it kind of floats serenely above the rhythm backup. The impression I got was that he uses either a lot more slurs that I use, or that when he does use short strokes they are not accented in a rhythmic way.
Another way of saying it- he doesn't bow percussively, which is a phrase Bruce Molsky used once to describe his Old Time bowing.
There are long bow patterns.... you can have patterns based on 5 and 3 note slurs and not do any single strokes at all, or hardly any.
In fact, IIRC, SOMEONE might have shared some long bow patterns in this thread... somewhere.
3-3-1-1 (Smoothshuffle) is the slur-iest pattern I usually use, but by long bow standards, it's short and choppy!!!
3-5 would divvy things up in a similar way, but be much smoother.
Or you could divvy it up:
6-2. Both of those ways put a direction change in a place where Smoothshuffle also puts a change, and I think those are two optimum places for a direction change, even when using lots of slurs.
Aside from that, longbow patterns often take place over 2 measures containing 16 notes rather tthan one measure containing 8.
I think Earl Collins uses 3 three note slurs to start phrases:
3-3-3-1-1-1-1-1
then moves into saw stroke.
But you could just as well go:
3-3-3-5.
Or
3-3-3-3-3-1.
The logic here is maintaining the 3 into 4/4 hemiola effect, so that there is a slight push going on, even though it's very smooth.
In contrast, if you just did four or eight note slurs lining up with the measure lines, it would just kind of sit there limply.
pdfarrell - Posted - 01/19/2014: 02:17:00
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
"It's a bit counterintuitive.But it's true: patterns open up rhythmic choices."
PD, I couldn't have said that better myself!!!
Still, I have to admit... when I saw there was activity in this thread, my immediate reaction was: "OH NO!!!"
Bowing threads here inevitably involve debate, and debate is, quite frankly, mentally and emotionally exhausting.
Among other things, because I find myself in conflict with people who most of the rest of the time here on the Fiddle Hangout I am NOT in conflict with, and fairly often find myself clicking "Like" on their posts. But we certainly disagree on bowing.... and have for 6 and a half years now.
Idea: Why don't you BLOG about your bowing. And we can discuss bowing to our hearts content in the comments.
Maybe in another 6 months I'll be ready for another bowing debate... not quite yet, though!
I get your point. I guess I was stirring the pot a bit. But this thread, for me, has been the most interesting and influential of all on FHO.
One thing I have been hoping to see is more explanation from the the non-pattern bowers. But I suppose that by its very nature -- subconscious, intuitive -- it is difficult to put into words. But still... is it true that these fiddlers don't mind if they start a measure on an up or down bow? Do they really bow a tune backwards to become comfortable with the bow in any position at any time. And by the way, bowing a tune backward implies that there was a forward which implies some sort of mapped out bowing strategy. I suppose that in some cases people are using patterns but would rather not be be aware of it, which is fine, but not an argument against patterns.
Maybe I'll try blogging about this. This might be the first line: I'm a pattern down-bower, but not sure I want to be.
By the way, there was some mention about one of the threads being a soap opera or a novel. Well this thread wins my vote for the best reading on the Hangout. I'd like to see Humbled take a stab at using this thread for the basis of a novel.
ChickenMan - Posted - 01/19/2014: 07:21:15
You are correct about bluegrass influences and long bow playing. Hartford idolized Benny Martin, from his high school days, and Benny has been known to play, brace yourself, 15 notes per bow stroke. Pdfarrell, if you like how JH fiddles, just know that he is his own sort of fiddler and not strictly old time. And I don't think he is much of a pattern player but I haven't listened to him with any attempts to figure it out so don't take my word for it.
Pathfinder - Posted - 01/19/2014: 07:31:47
I am learning E. Lundy's version of Ducks on the Mill Pond which caused me to try to find out about him and his fiddling history. I wonder how he would have played the same tune without the guitar?
I found three statement here that caught my attention concerning his bowing and influences on bowing from Old Fiddler's Hall of Fame site.
1. It seems probable that Lundy's music was in a sense incompatible with that of young men like Ernest Stoneman, men who were heading in new and somewhat radical musical directions. It would be left for Kahle Brewer, a younger, more adaptable fiddler to accompany
2. Lundy's fiddling cannot simply be categorized as "short" or "long" bow fiddling. Like all master fiddlers, he consistently employs both techniques to ultimate advantage - emphasizing the rhythm with syncopated short bows while gliding over difficult musical flourishes with a long bow.
3. The introduction to the banjo probably influenced bowing to the same extent it did repertory. As the tunes were melodically flattened out, the need for complex bowing was superfluous.
oldtimemusic.com/FHOFLundy.html
That last statement kinda got my attention in relation to how most seem to think of old time as string music with a banjo. Could it be that way because of the recordings and what actually existed was something quite different? The link discusses the limitations of recordings as a compete documentation.
I think those of us who are more students of fiddling than simply trying to sound like old timey recordings will have to give serious consideration to how we decide to define the genre we call OT.
Edited by - Pathfinder on 01/19/2014 07:35:48
ChickenMan - Posted - 01/19/2014: 07:40:32
It you YouTube john Hartford fiddle and watch the one that is Kentucky fiddle 3 Dusty Miller you can see he is proficient at saw stroke (very tiny bow movements in the first few second of the tune - but also that he plays a bunch of long bows right after that. He could play patterns because I watched him shuffle his way through Bile 'em Cabbages in another video.
tonyelder - Posted - 01/19/2014: 11:10:47
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
"It's a bit counterintuitive.But it's true: patterns open up rhythmic choices."
PD, I couldn't have said that better myself!!!
Still, I have to admit... when I saw there was activity in this thread, my immediate reaction was: "OH NO!!!"
Bowing threads here inevitably involve debate, and debate is, quite frankly, mentally and emotionally exhausting.
Among other things, because I find myself in conflict with people who most of the rest of the time here on the Fiddle Hangout I am NOT in conflict with, and fairly often find myself clicking "Like" on their posts. But we certainly disagree on bowing.... and have for 6 and a half years now.
Idea: Why don't you BLOG about your bowing. And we can discuss bowing to our hearts content in the comments.
Maybe in another 6 months I'll be ready for another bowing debate... not quite yet, though!
I get your point. I guess I was stirring the pot a bit. But this thread, for me, has been the most interesting and influential of all on FHO.
One thing I have been hoping to see is more explanation from the the non-pattern bowers. But I suppose that by its very nature -- subconscious, intuitive -- it is difficult to put into words. But still... is it true that these fiddlers don't mind if they start a measure on an up or down bow? Do they really bow a tune backwards to become comfortable with the bow in any position at any time. And by the way, bowing a tune backward implies that there was a forward which implies some sort of mapped out bowing strategy. I suppose that in some cases people are using patterns but would rather not be be aware of it, which is fine, but not an argument against patterns.
Maybe I'll try blogging about this. This might be the first line: I'm a pattern down-bower, but not sure I want to be.
By the way, there was some mention about one of the threads being a soap opera or a novel. Well this thread wins my vote for the best reading on the Hangout. I'd like to see Humbled take a stab at using this thread for the basis of a novel.
I think there are probably as many ways to approach this as there are folks who fiddle.
I have John Hartford's teaching video: OLD TIME FIDDLING: TRYING TO TEACH MY HANDS TO DO WHAT I HEAR IN MY HEAD
I don't try to copy John's fiddling, but I do try to copy his fiddling idea.
Just because I don't make an independent study of bowing patterns doesn't mean I don't analyze what I am doing with the bow when I am learning a tune. My analysis is focused more on making - what I hear myself play - sound like what I hear in my head. It isn't focused on trying to make what I hear in my head conform to a specific pre-learned bowing patterns.
It is easy to understand that every tune has a rhythmic pattern that repeats itself throughout the tune. I want to have that melody and rhythmic pattern so fixed in my mind that I only need to sing it in my head and let my hands recreate that music with my fiddle. (As a side note – when you watch John play, most of the time you will see his mouth moving. He explains that he is singing the tune to himself as he plays.)
How well you are able to recreate that melody and rhythmic pattern with your bow is the real issue – regardless of whether you are a pattern down-bower or not. If you can't figure out how to do that by ear well enough to satisfy your hearing, then perhaps you need to find someone (that you like to hear with the fiddle) to show you how they play it. And if they show you a “bowing pattern” - because that is what they use – then learn it. If you learn it for just that one tune, you have still learned it – and then it can be used again in other tunes whenever it might be needed.
I do believe that there is a difference in the way a down-bow sounds and an up-bow sounds – naturally. And I think most everyone has a natural tendency towards starting phrases on a down-bow, but that does not mean I am wrong or a bad fiddler if I ever find myself starting a phrase with an up-bow. And it doesn't mean I'm playing backwards or I got turned around. Playing backwards to me means finding myself bowing in a direction that I'm not use to using on that particular phrase – there is no directional bias.
But I really don't think that the difference is quiet so obvious or so easily discernable. Especially when the fiddler is doing either within the context of a tune. And the better the fiddler, the harder it is to tell. Down-bowed strokes can be given just about any accent you want – same as an up-bowed stroke. What is the context? Think – Nashville shuffle or potatoes, can you tell when the long bow is up and when it is down? imo - Very few fiddlers have an ear so well refined that they can consistantly tell from listening which bow stroke a fiddler uses is up and which is down-bowed.
That is my explanation. Others may see it differently.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/19/2014: 18:21:55
quote:
Originally posted by Pathfinder
I am learning E. Lundy's version of Ducks on the Mill Pond which caused me to try to find out about him and his fiddling history. I wonder how he would have played the same tune without the guitar?
I found three statement here that caught my attention concerning his bowing and influences on bowing from Old Fiddler's Hall of Fame site.
1. It seems probable that Lundy's music was in a sense incompatible with that of young men like Ernest Stoneman, men who were heading in new and somewhat radical musical directions. It would be left for Kahle Brewer, a younger, more adaptable fiddler to accompany
2. Lundy's fiddling cannot simply be categorized as "short" or "long" bow fiddling. Like all master fiddlers, he consistently employs both techniques to ultimate advantage - emphasizing the rhythm with syncopated short bows while gliding over difficult musical flourishes with a long bow.
3. The introduction to the banjo probably influenced bowing to the same extent it did repertory. As the tunes were melodically flattened out, the need for complex bowing was superfluous.
oldtimemusic.com/FHOFLundy.html
That last statement kinda got my attention in relation to how most seem to think of old time as string music with a banjo. Could it be that way because of the recordings and what actually existed was something quite different? The link discusses the limitations of recordings as a compete documentation.
I think those of us who are more students of fiddling than simply trying to sound like old timey recordings will have to give serious consideration to how we decide to define the genre we call OT.
Actually, I think you've got it backwards. The tunes coming from Europe tended to be melodically complex, but rhythmically straightforward. When you look at the bowing of fiddlers around Galax Virginia where banjo was common, the bowing isn't simpler, it's MORE COMPLEX!!!
Virginia is very narrow around Galax. In Virginia, Alan Jabbour mentions Henry Reed as having complex bowing. Melvin Wine was in West Virginia, but fairly close to Galax, and used fairly complex bowing.
South of the Virginia border in North Carolina, you have Round Peak including Tommy Jarrell's fiddling, which is a lot more than just sawstroke or Nashville.
You can find Nashville phrasing in Scottish tunes along with sawstroke. You can find 3 note slurs in Irish and English fiddling. What you don't find (as far as I can either hear in the music or have heard tell) in the European antecendents of Old Time fiddling is Hemiola (you do find SOME of it in clasical music however).
In the United States however, you had more African Americans playing fiddle than playing banjo before the Civil War (They did a survey- results were 2 to 1 in favor of the fiddle!!!). Coming from cultures where drums were used for communication, they put a high value on rhythm, but were forbidden to have drums. The result was tending to play European instruments in rhythmically complex ways. Ragtime is a prime example. Hemiola abounds in Ragtime. You also find it in raggy fiddling, and it apparently also passed into Bluegrass banjo in the Scruggs rolls and into Bluegrass mandolin in McReynolds picking.
The basic idea of hemiola is groups of 3's into 4'4 or 2/4 time. Many Old Time fiddle bowings contain the concept of hemiola embedded in them, and one of them even has the traditional name (via Henry Reed) "Rag bow". (3-3-1-1)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/19/2014: 19:41:40
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
"It's a bit counterintuitive.But it's true: patterns open up rhythmic choices."
PD, I couldn't have said that better myself!!!
Still, I have to admit... when I saw there was activity in this thread, my immediate reaction was: "OH NO!!!"
Bowing threads here inevitably involve debate, and debate is, quite frankly, mentally and emotionally exhausting.
Among other things, because I find myself in conflict with people who most of the rest of the time here on the Fiddle Hangout I am NOT in conflict with, and fairly often find myself clicking "Like" on their posts. But we certainly disagree on bowing.... and have for 6 and a half years now.
Idea: Why don't you BLOG about your bowing. And we can discuss bowing to our hearts content in the comments.
Maybe in another 6 months I'll be ready for another bowing debate... not quite yet, though!
I get your point. I guess I was stirring the pot a bit. But this thread, for me, has been the most interesting and influential of all on FHO.
One thing I have been hoping to see is more explanation from the the non-pattern bowers. But I suppose that by its very nature -- subconscious, intuitive -- it is difficult to put into words. But still... is it true that these fiddlers don't mind if they start a measure on an up or down bow? Do they really bow a tune backwards to become comfortable with the bow in any position at any time. And by the way, bowing a tune backward implies that there was a forward which implies some sort of mapped out bowing strategy. I suppose that in some cases people are using patterns but would rather not be be aware of it, which is fine, but not an argument against patterns.
Maybe I'll try blogging about this. This might be the first line: I'm a pattern down-bower, but not sure I want to be.
By the way, there was some mention about one of the threads being a soap opera or a novel. Well this thread wins my vote for the best reading on the Hangout. I'd like to see Humbled take a stab at using this thread for the basis of a novel.
Well, I myself find bowing and bowing threads perhaps the most interesting of all. What distinguishes the fiddle from the mandolin? They're tuned the same... the left hand fingering is the same except for intonation, and that you can't play full chords on fiddle. What distinguishes the two is THE BOW and what you do with it!!!!
And yet, for some people so much of what you do with the bow is something that shouldn't be talked about, because then you might analyze it, and the oldtimers didn't DO that.
Well, if that's the case, maybe we ought to just go hang out on the Mandolin Hangout, and swap fiddle tunes with them. And guaranteed, there won't be any bowing discussions!
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the topic of bowing.... it's just the conflict that it causes that I get tired of!!!
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 01/19/2014: 23:40:24
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
"It's a bit counterintuitive.But it's true: patterns open up rhythmic choices."
PD, I couldn't have said that better myself!!!
Still, I have to admit... when I saw there was activity in this thread, my immediate reaction was: "OH NO!!!"
Bowing threads here inevitably involve debate, and debate is, quite frankly, mentally and emotionally exhausting.
Among other things, because I find myself in conflict with people who most of the rest of the time here on the Fiddle Hangout I am NOT in conflict with, and fairly often find myself clicking "Like" on their posts. But we certainly disagree on bowing.... and have for 6 and a half years now.
Idea: Why don't you BLOG about your bowing. And we can discuss bowing to our hearts content in the comments.
Maybe in another 6 months I'll be ready for another bowing debate... not quite yet, though!
I get your point. I guess I was stirring the pot a bit. But this thread, for me, has been the most interesting and influential of all on FHO.
One thing I have been hoping to see is more explanation from the the non-pattern bowers. But I suppose that by its very nature -- subconscious, intuitive -- it is difficult to put into words. But still... is it true that these fiddlers don't mind if they start a measure on an up or down bow? Do they really bow a tune backwards to become comfortable with the bow in any position at any time. And by the way, bowing a tune backward implies that there was a forward which implies some sort of mapped out bowing strategy. I suppose that in some cases people are using patterns but would rather not be be aware of it, which is fine, but not an argument against patterns.
Maybe I'll try blogging about this. This might be the first line: I'm a pattern down-bower, but not sure I want to be.
By the way, there was some mention about one of the threads being a soap opera or a novel. Well this thread wins my vote for the best reading on the Hangout. I'd like to see Humbled take a stab at using this thread for the basis of a novel.
Hiya. Humbled here. Let me try to write the first sentence of this soon to be best selling novel. Hmmmmm.
He was an old fiddler who fiddled by himself when he fiddled alone....
Hmmmmmm. Maybe something more like...
With her bow racing downwards across her fiddle strings, slurring some notes and accenting other notes with crisp, calculated single-note upward and downward strokes, Nancy suddenly stopped playing altogether. Why? How? She wanted more from her fiddle tunes, and wondered if there might be a bowing pattern she could learn, a motif which indeed could guide her hand to produce new and lovely tunes that her fiance, John, would love to hear...if truly John did enjoy her fiddling at all. Had she not caught him looking towards the muted football game while she played him her latest version of "Cold Frosty Morning?" How dare he! If he truly loved me he would direct all his attention to me and my fiddling rather than watch Peyton Manning and the Denver "Whatevers," thought Nancy. Yet maybe if I learn something new. There's this Fiddle Hangout online and an occasional poster by the name of Fiddlepogo has declared that there are patterns which can guide one's bowing. Maybe if I learned the Inverted Nashville Side Step Shuffle...maybe then John will listen to my fiddling...?
Uhm.... It's a rough draft at this point.
Edited by - Humbled by this instrument on 01/19/2014 23:46:56
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/20/2014: 05:03:35
Sounds good...when can we expect the Broadway show or movie versions, ya think? I might try out for the fiddler and get hubby to audition for the aloof fiddler's fiancé...hmmm...nit much acting involved, except switch from football to hunting or home improvement shows.
pdfarrell - Posted - 01/20/2014: 06:57:18
Good to see the names have been changed. Don't forget the caveat at the beginning: "Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/20/2014: 11:38:14
quote:
Originally posted by Humbled by this instrument
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
"It's a bit counterintuitive.But it's true: patterns open up rhythmic choices."
PD, I couldn't have said that better myself!!!
Still, I have to admit... when I saw there was activity in this thread, my immediate reaction was: "OH NO!!!"
Bowing threads here inevitably involve debate, and debate is, quite frankly, mentally and emotionally exhausting.
Among other things, because I find myself in conflict with people who most of the rest of the time here on the Fiddle Hangout I am NOT in conflict with, and fairly often find myself clicking "Like" on their posts. But we certainly disagree on bowing.... and have for 6 and a half years now.
Idea: Why don't you BLOG about your bowing. And we can discuss bowing to our hearts content in the comments.
Maybe in another 6 months I'll be ready for another bowing debate... not quite yet, though!
I get your point. I guess I was stirring the pot a bit. But this thread, for me, has been the most interesting and influential of all on FHO.
One thing I have been hoping to see is more explanation from the the non-pattern bowers. But I suppose that by its very nature -- subconscious, intuitive -- it is difficult to put into words. But still... is it true that these fiddlers don't mind if they start a measure on an up or down bow? Do they really bow a tune backwards to become comfortable with the bow in any position at any time. And by the way, bowing a tune backward implies that there was a forward which implies some sort of mapped out bowing strategy. I suppose that in some cases people are using patterns but would rather not be be aware of it, which is fine, but not an argument against patterns.
Maybe I'll try blogging about this. This might be the first line: I'm a pattern down-bower, but not sure I want to be.
By the way, there was some mention about one of the threads being a soap opera or a novel. Well this thread wins my vote for the best reading on the Hangout. I'd like to see Humbled take a stab at using this thread for the basis of a novel.
Hiya. Humbled here. Let me try to write the first sentence of this soon to be best selling novel. Hmmmmm.
He was an old fiddler who fiddled by himself when he fiddled alone....
Hmmmmmm. Maybe something more like...
With her bow racing downwards across her fiddle strings, slurring some notes and accenting other notes with crisp, calculated single-note upward and downward strokes, Nancy suddenly stopped playing altogether. Why? How? She wanted more from her fiddle tunes, and wondered if there might be a bowing pattern she could learn, a motif which indeed could guide her hand to produce new and lovely tunes that her fiance, John, would love to hear...if truly John did enjoy her fiddling at all. Had she not caught him looking towards the muted football game while she played him her latest version of "Cold Frosty Morning?" How dare he! If he truly loved me he would direct all his attention to me and my fiddling rather than watch Peyton Manning and the Denver "Whatevers," thought Nancy. Yet maybe if I learn something new. There's this Fiddle Hangout online and an occasional poster by the name of Fiddlepogo has declared that there are patterns which can guide one's bowing. Maybe if I learned the Inverted Nashville Side Step Shuffle...maybe then John will listen to my fiddling...?
Uhm.... It's a rough draft at this point.
Lee M - Posted - 01/20/2014: 11:57:04
This might be a good time to post a video of "Nancy" playing her fiddle that takes bowing to a different level.
This gal is in reality, Eileen Ivers and this video has been featured on the Hangout in the past..We all love our bows, but every time I watch this video I get inspired and try to do EVERYTHING better with my bow.. Hope you don't think that this is a bad time to post it. LEE
youtube.com/watch?v=ot4F2VOJJKQ
ChickenMan - Posted - 01/20/2014: 14:47:58
The hair looks so loose on her bow!
Lee M - Posted - 01/20/2014: 15:01:20
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
The hair looks so loose on her bow!
Yes, and that makes it even more amazing!
There is indeed more to bowing than that which meets the ear.
Edited by - Lee M on 01/20/2014 15:05:17
GeeDubya - Posted - 01/20/2014: 16:33:21
Yeah, this is a tune with no rhythm (one of them Irish tunes), missing syncoshuffles, and is an unpatterned mess. Certainly ignore this unparalleled demonstration of fiddling at its finest. - I'm really just poking a bit of gentle fun at Pogo here, with no malice intended.
There's so much subtlety in what she's doing with both the right and left hand that it defies deconstruction. There are masters in every genre who exemplify rarefied fiddling. Eileen certainly demonstrates all of that in this video.
Lee M - Posted - 01/20/2014: 17:31:51
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
Yeah, this is a tune with no rhythm (one of them Irish tunes), missing syncoshuffles, and is an unpatterned mess. Certainly ignore this unparalleled demonstration of fiddling at its finest. - I'm really just poking a bit of gentle fun at Pogo here, with no malice intended.
There's so much subtlety in what she's doing with both the right and left hand that it defies deconstruction. There are masters in every genre who exemplify rarefied fiddling. Eileen certainly demonstrates all of that in this video.
I know that I have watched that video 30 times... I just push E on my search engine and my computer goes right to it..After each time I watch I grab my fiddle and TRY to something a little more creative ...Watching fiddler Brian Slattery has the same effect on me..
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/20/2014: 17:52:17
I can't get to the link because it's not active...can't copy and paste something like that from my mobile devices...I'm dying to see which fiddler you all are talking about!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/20/2014: 18:01:28
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
Yeah, this is a tune with no rhythm (one of them Irish tunes), missing syncoshuffles, and is an unpatterned mess. Certainly ignore this unparalleled demonstration of fiddling at its finest. - I'm really just poking a bit of gentle fun at Pogo here, with no malice intended.
There's so much subtlety in what she's doing with both the right and left hand that it defies deconstruction. There are masters in every genre who exemplify rarefied fiddling. Eileen certainly demonstrates all of that in this video.
It's ANYTHING but an unpatterned mess- it might be missing Syncoshuffles, but she uses more Georgia Shuffle than a Bluegrass fiddler!!! And the backbeats are on a downbow, just like a Bluegrass fiddler. I'd post locations in time, but there are so many it would be easier to post the locations where she DOESN'T use Georgia Shuffle!
Yes, she is a wonderful fiddler.... but patterns DO enter into it!!!
No malice intended!!
BTW... I posted a video of her, Liz Carroll and another great Irish Trad fiddler with a Greek name a couple of years ago.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/20/2014 18:03:52
Lee M - Posted - 01/20/2014: 19:13:30
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
We'll ok I fiddled with it until I got it in my copy paste: youtube.com/watch?v=ot4F2VOJJKQ but Irish fiddling I never can make heads or tales of...
Take a deeeep breath.. I just posted that video to keep us humble...
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/20/2014: 19:31:20
But I thought we were all "Humbled by this Instrument!"
Pathfinder - Posted - 01/21/2014: 03:03:50
quote:
Originally posted by leemysliwiec
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
The hair looks so loose on her bow!
Yes, and that makes it even more amazing!
There is indeed more to bowing than that which meets the ear.
That's a great video and exciting to watch. Thank you for posting. A word of caution however, this is a professional sounding recording with a good mic.
Compare:
youtube.com/watch?v=YxKlpK2_vlY
youtube.com/watch?v=o76mxA8c5uI
Pathfinder - Posted - 01/21/2014: 03:27:06
If you don't like Chinese Breakdown, you will after you listen to this video. Wait until you have time, its wonderful and reminds me of a fiddle maker, fiddler, friend.
youtube.com/watch?v=9hRs_7tdFsA
GeeDubya - Posted - 01/21/2014: 06:07:03
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
quote:
Originally posted by GeeDubya
Yeah, this is a tune with no rhythm (one of them Irish tunes), missing syncoshuffles, and is an unpatterned mess. Certainly ignore this unparalleled demonstration of fiddling at its finest. - I'm really just poking a bit of gentle fun at Pogo here, with no malice intended.
There's so much subtlety in what she's doing with both the right and left hand that it defies deconstruction. There are masters in every genre who exemplify rarefied fiddling. Eileen certainly demonstrates all of that in this video.
It's ANYTHING but an unpatterned mess- it might be missing Syncoshuffles, but she uses more Georgia Shuffle than a Bluegrass fiddler!!! And the backbeats are on a downbow, just like a Bluegrass fiddler. I'd post locations in time, but there are so many it would be easier to post the locations where she DOESN'T use Georgia Shuffle!
Yes, she is a wonderful fiddler.... but patterns DO enter into it!!!
No malice intended!!
BTW... I posted a video of her, Liz Carroll and another great Irish Trad fiddler with a Greek name a couple of years ago.
I'll bet Michael Coleman had never heard of a Georgia Shuffle, but three up & 1 down across the measure is one mark of Irish fiddling and certainly predates Bluegrass - maybe that's what those early Bluegrassers were listening to?. Yes, Pogo, she's patterned. 
Pathfinder - Posted - 01/21/2014: 07:52:51
I have decided that I think there are patterns. Heck, nature is splendidly full of patterns, and as individuals, our lives are full of patterns whether we think about it or not.
I was working through Shove that Pigs Foot......Stove and realized that I was making strategic alterations to how I would naturally bow to what I think sounded more fluid. What I think sounds more fluid speaks of my personality, right? It's a pattern of thinking, right?
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/21/2014: 10:01:33
Over on the Mid-month Fiddler's Choice thread on the sound off forum, I just put up a Chinese Breakdown...of course I ain't much good and don't know it too we'll, but even though I was planning on sneaking some synco shuffles in there, the smooth shuffles were just leading the way for me this morning...smooth shuffles as described by Pogo...thank you, Pogo...it took a few years, but I seem to be sailing along in smooth shuffle mode this morning...correct me if I got it wrong, but I think it was smooth shuffle, and it was comin out pretty nice!
Pathfinder - Posted - 01/21/2014: 10:22:29
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Over on the Mid-month Fiddler's Choice thread on the sound off forum, I just put up a Chinese Breakdown...of course I ain't much good and don't know it too we'll, but even though I was planning on sneaking some synco shuffles in there, the smooth shuffles were just leading the way for me this morning...smooth shuffles as described by Pogo...thank you, Pogo...it took a few years, but I seem to be sailing along in smooth shuffle mode this morning...correct me if I got it wrong, but I think it was smooth shuffle, and it was comin out pretty nice!
You should try a Smooth Synco-Shuffle Half Gainer Micro bow sometime at 120 BPM. I did it once and Charlie Daniels and the Devil appeared.
Humbled by this instrument - Posted - 01/21/2014: 10:50:09
quote:
Originally posted by Pathfinder
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Over on the Mid-month Fiddler's Choice thread on the sound off forum, I just put up a Chinese Breakdown...of course I ain't much good and don't know it too we'll, but even though I was planning on sneaking some synco shuffles in there, the smooth shuffles were just leading the way for me this morning...smooth shuffles as described by Pogo...thank you, Pogo...it took a few years, but I seem to be sailing along in smooth shuffle mode this morning...correct me if I got it wrong, but I think it was smooth shuffle, and it was comin out pretty nice!
You should try a Smooth Synco-Shuffle Half Gainer Micro bow sometime at 120 BPM. I did it once and Charlie Daniels and the Devil appeared.
So true! I had a lot o' Smooth Synco-Shuffle Half Pint Micro Brew and...oh...well I did see Charlie and the devil.
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 01/21/2014: 12:52:28
fiddlehangout.com/global/ckedi.../icon.png) center no-repeat #ff0000;cursor:pointer;background-size: 9px 10px;top:-8px;-moz-border-radius:2px;border-radius:2px" title="Insert paragraph here">↵
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
[...] the smooth shuffles were just leading the way for me this morning...
Peggy, I've gotten the impression from some of your posts over the years that you tend to be drawn to fiddlers who do a lot of sawstroking, in spite of the fact that you have traditionally used so much Nashville. Assuming that my impression is true, I think you should ramp up your effort to master sawshuffle ... it's mostly sawstrokes, but with a single 3-slur per measure (centered on middle beat of the measure). 3-slurs are really useful for fiddlers who use a lot of sawstrokes, because the 3-slur can substitute ANYWHERE for any sequence of three saws (i.e., for three strokes in alternating directions), without reversing the bowing downstream. After you get comfortable with the sawshuffle, try locating that 3-slur in other places ... even across the bar lines (centered on the first beat of the measure). When you get comfortable with putting them anywhere, they are very useful for preceeding a note that you want to accent, because they give you a lot of bow available for the accent. If you tend to like to downbow the accents, that means you'll want to use an upbow on the preceeding 3-slur. 3-slurs are easiest to do (and flow the nicest, I think) when they are positioned where there aren't any string crossings. Just my 2-cents worth.
Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 01/21/2014 12:59:03
Pathfinder - Posted - 01/21/2014: 14:01:30
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot
fiddlehangout.com/global/ckedi...png") no-repeat center / 9px 10px rgb(255, 0, 0); margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border-radius: 2px; top: -8px; width: 17px; height: 17px; right: 17px; color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: 0px; font-size: 0px; display: block; position: absolute; z-index: 9999; cursor: pointer; -moz-border-radius: 2px;" title="Insert paragraph here">↵
it's mostly sawstrokes, but with a single 3-slur per measure (centered on middle beat of the measure). 3-slurs are really useful for fiddlers who use a lot of sawstrokes, because the 3-slur can substitute ANYWHERE for any sequence of three saws (i.e., for three strokes in alternating directions), without reversing the bowing downstream. After you get comfortable with the sawshuffle, try locating that 3-slur in other places ... even across the bar lines (centered on the first beat of the measure). When you get comfortable with putting them anywhere, they are very useful for preceeding a note that you want to accent, because they give you a lot of bow available for the accent. If you tend to like to downbow the accents, that means you'll want to use an upbow on the preceeding 3-slur. 3-slurs are easiest to do (and flow the nicest, I think) when they are positioned where there aren't any string crossings. Just my 2-cents worth.
Mike,
Is it a 3 note slur?
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/21/2014: 14:29:47
Mike, do you know of any sound examples of this?
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 01/21/2014: 15:15:25
quote:
Originally posted by Pathfinder
Mike,
Is it a 3 note slur?
Not if one of those three (melody) notes is a longer note. In "cut time" (2/2 time), a measure CAN hold eight 8th-notes, but the measure might not ACTUALLY contain eight melody notes. There may or may not be eight actual notes in the measure, depending on whether or not any of the notes are twice as long (or more) than an 8th-note.
The best way to think about it is to imagine each measure to be divided into eight equal portions of time. Those portions can each be occupied by an 8th-note, or two adjacent portions can be occupied by one quarter-note, etc. To avoid confusing the terms "note" and "one of the possible short note portions", I like to call each of those portions or positions an "SNE", standing for "short note equivalent". (Maybe a better acronym would be an "SNP", pronounced "snip", for "short note position"). There are ALWAYS eight SNE's (or SNP's) in each measure, regardless of whether the actual melody notes are all 8th-notes, or a smaller number of short and longer melody notes. And when it's necessary to identify a particular one of those eight positions, I call them SNE1, SNE2, ..., SNE8, or maybe SNP1, SNP2, ..., SNP8.
So, the more precise answer to your question is that a 3-slur is an uninterrupted single-direction movement of the bow that covers exactly three adjacent SNP's. And that one bow stroke can possibly be playing three slurred 8th-notes, or one 8th note slurred with one quarter note, or one single dotted quarter note. Likewise, a 2-slur is two SNP's slurred together, etc.
Edited by - Mike_Fontenot on 01/21/2014 15:19:31
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 01/21/2014: 15:36:47
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Mike, do you know of any sound examples of this?
Well, Pogo's samples of sawshuffle is one case. And his smoothshuffle is a case where the first three saw strokes of the measure are replaced by a 3-slur, and likewise for the next three saws in the measure. The "on-beat-Georgia" pattern:
1-3-1-3
is a case where the last three saw strokes of each half measure are replaced by 3-slurs. And the (off-beat) Georgia is the same thing, except shifted two positions to the left (and that is an example of using a 3-slur across the bar lines (centered on the first beat of the measure)).
But I'd recommend that you first just try to get more comfortable with sawshuffle. Once that feels real natural, then try moving that one 3-slur somewhere else in the measure ... maybe initially keeping it an upbowed 3-slur, rather than a downbowed 3-slur, because they are more common when a 3-slur occurs by itself (rather than in adjacent pairs of 3-slurs, like in smoothshuffle).
I may be able to find you a YouTube of the upbowed 3-slur being used across some of the bar lines (when it's not just part of a long Georgia pattern) ... it's pretty commonly used by Texas-style fiddlers (as is the sawshuffle, where the 3-slur crosses the middle of the measure).
Pathfinder - Posted - 01/21/2014: 16:25:53
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Fontenot
quote:
Originally posted by Pathfinder
Mike,
Is it a 3 note slur?
Not if one of those three (melody) notes is a longer note. In "cut time" (2/2 time), a measure CAN hold eight 8th-notes, but the measure might not ACTUALLY contain eight melody notes. There may or may not be eight actual notes in the measure, depending on whether or not any of the notes are twice as long (or more) than an 8th-note.
The best way to think about it is to imagine each measure to be divided into eight equal portions of time. Those portions can each be occupied by an 8th-note, or two adjacent portions can be occupied by one quarter-note, etc. To avoid confusing the terms "note" and "one of the possible short note portions", I like to call each of those portions or positions an "SNE", standing for "short note equivalent". (Maybe a better acronym would be an "SNP", pronounced "snip", for "short note position"). There are ALWAYS eight SNE's (or SNP's) in each measure, regardless of whether the actual melody notes are all 8th-notes, or a smaller number of short and longer melody notes. And when it's necessary to identify a particular one of those eight positions, I call them SNE1, SNE2, ..., SNE8, or maybe SNP1, SNP2, ..., SNP8.
So, the more precise answer to your question is that a 3-slur is an uninterrupted single-direction movement of the bow that covers exactly three adjacent SNP's. And that one bow stroke can possibly be playing three slurred 8th-notes, or one 8th note slurred with one quarter note, or one single dotted quarter note. Likewise, a 2-slur is two SNP's slurred together, etc.
Got it, Mike and thank you. 
I do that already but I'd never heard it explained as adding it in anywhere. I will have to pay more attention and try it out .
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/21/2014: 17:42:00
Well I was kinda happy to see smooth shuffles just popping out everywhere on their own as I played Chinese Breakdown this morning, without really thinking, if in fact those popping things were smooth shuffles...whatever they were, they were comin out on their own very nicely. I was gonna go for some synco shuffles, but seemed like it was just a day for the other. I'll have to think on what Mike said...I've messed around with some of these shuffles Pogo talks about, but it's been a trick trying to get them at a mindless, comfort level, which is how I need them if I'm ever gonna make use if them. The earlier one I'd made with the cell phone did have synco shuffles, but they were forced a little, had some screwed up timing, plus I didn't get any focus on the chickens, who were sorta out there dancing to the music...slipping up the icy hillside, and finally giving up and sliding back down...I tried to capture it because it just looked like Chinese a Breakdown...but missed that particular Kodak moment, I'm afraid...lol. Maybe next time!
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 01/21/2014 17:45:01
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 01/22/2014: 10:03:46
A few more comments:
1) Although a 3-slur can replace any three sawstrokes ANYWHERE, they most often will precede or follow a sawed short note that is either a beat note or an off-beat note: i.e., the short sawed note will usually be at either SNP1 or SNP5 (the "beat" SNP's) or at either SNP3 or SNP7 (the "off-beat" SNP's). They CAN be at the other four possible locations: SNP2, SNP4, SNP6, or SNP8 (what I call the "prebeat" or "postbeat" positions), but that is not commonly done, I think ... probably because those even-numbered SNP's are rarely accented. So most often, a 3-slur imbedded in a bunch of sawstrokes will correspond to a half-measure (i.e., to a sequence of four SNP's, although not necessarily between the bar-lines) of either on-beat Georgia or regular (off-beat) Georgia. For example, in sawshuffle, the 3-slur followed (or preceded) by the (usually accented) sawsroke is just like the middle-measure part of the Georgia shuffle (but it's different from a complete Georgia pattern, because it doesn't keep going (and sometimes wearing out its welcome)). And in the pattern
1-3-1-1-1-1
the first half-measure is just the on-beat Georgia, but it doesn't keep on going.
2) It's also possible to imbed 2-slurs within a string of sawstrokes, and many fiddlers do that ... an example is in Texas Shorty's version of "Boiling Cabbage" that I've linked to in the past, so Texas-style fiddlers do use them (although 3-slurs seem to be more common, I think). 2-slurs DO work, but since a 2-slur DOES "get the bowing turned around", they have to be used in pairs if you want the downstream bowing to be unaffected. The pair of 2-slurs can occur right together, like they do in the common pattern
2-2-1-1-1-1
or they can have a single sawstroke between them (like in syncoshuffle), or they can have two sawstrokes between them (like in Nashville, and its variants). 2-slurs DO tend to accent the following (or sometimes the preceding) sawstroke, but usually not as strongly as a 3-slur does.
3) Although in my previous post, I said that the 3-slur usually PRECEDES the sawstroke that you want to accent, sometimes the 3-slur FOLLOWS the accented note. That presumes, of course, that you already have enough bow available when you get to the sawstroked note to be able to accent it. But the following 3-slur DOES "re-load" the bow for you, so that you will be ready for another accent downstream somewhere. I.e., 3-slurs can be used both to "pre-load" OR "re-load" the bow for accents. 2-slurs can do the same thing, although not quite so strongly.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/22/2014: 10:36:41
Ummm...do we have any English translators nearby?
bowdragger - Posted - 03/12/2014: 16:30:36
The "on-beat-Georgia" pattern:
1-3-1-3
is a case where the last three saw strokes of each half measure are replaced by 3-slurs. And the (off-beat) Georgia is the same thing, except shifted two positions to the left (and that is an example of using a 3-slur across the bar lines (centered on the first beat of the measure)
Is this the pattern I hear in the A part of "Uncle Pen," or something else entirely?
OTJunky - Posted - 03/12/2014: 16:56:25
I think Uncle Pen uses this one
2-1-3-2
--OTJ
Mike_Fontenot - Posted - 03/12/2014: 17:06:12
quote:
Originally posted by elviolinista
The "on-beat-Georgia" pattern:
1-3-1-3
is a case where the last three saw strokes of each half measure are replaced by 3-slurs. And the (off-beat) Georgia is the same thing, except shifted two positions to the left (and that is an example of using a 3-slur across the bar lines (centered on the first beat of the measure)
Is this the pattern I hear in the A part of "Uncle Pen," or something else entirely?
I've never learned how to play Uncle Pen. I tried listening to (and watching) some of the renditions of it on YouTube, but my ear isn't good enough to hear the bowing at high speed. I tried using my software to slow several of them down, but couldn't get it to work for some reason. I also tried to look up the transcription in Fiddle Fakebook, but it wasn't in there. Maybe Pogo, or someone else with a better ear than mine for hearing the bowing at high speed, can help.
bowdragger - Posted - 03/12/2014: 18:19:01
I've never learned how to play Uncle Pen. I tried listening to (and watching) some of the renditions of it on YouTube, but my ear isn't good enough to hear the bowing at high speed. I tried using my software to slow several of them down, but couldn't get it to work for some reason. I also tried to look up the transcription in Fiddle Fakebook, but it wasn't in there. Maybe Pogo, or someone else with a better ear than mine for hearing the bowing at high speed, can help.
Not that I have any better ear than yours - or anybody's for that matter! - but what I've seen done before is
down-up-up-up
down-up-up-up
down-up-up-up, etc.
on the stopped G and D strings, and just wondered if that sort of "down-up-up-up" way of stating it relates to the numbering system other members post here.
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
