curlyrayfan - Posted - 11/10/2008:  15:46:23

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Is the use a vibrato accepted among all of you?

I currently use it on only long whole notes(sometimes). But if you use it...
When?
Why?

If not...
Why not?

FiddleCat - Posted - 11/10/2008:  15:59:39

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I don't use it because I haven't quite figured out how to do it yet.

But once I do manage to master it I do plan on using it when I feel it could be added.

I know alot of FHO members feel it's not for bluegrass or old time. But I think it gives any song that extra lift it needs in places that seem boring.

All She Could Sing was Fiddle Come Fee, The Mouse has Married the Humble Bee.

bj - Posted - 11/10/2008:  16:11:13

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I don't use it for two reasons. When I try to use it on a waltz, where it just might be appropriate, the whole damn fiddle wiggles. I don't think that's the way it's supposed to happen. ;-)

The second reason is that it really isn't used in Oldtime, which is what I primarily play.

I heard a gal playing bluegrass songs yesterday with just a bit of it (VERY restrained) and it sounded fine. I dunno if that's "the right thing" or not, but she was a helluva fiddler who wins awards locally.

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dakotarh - Posted - 11/10/2008:  17:11:14

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I use it quite often, mostly on long notes, or slow songs. It is a great addition, and usually people appreciate it. I wouldn't recomend doing it on much on really fast songs (there are exceptions). On a faster piece a better form of improv, is playing chords and drone strings. Be sure to mix it up though. Don't play everything always the same way. It can get really boreing then! :D

I believe in music, like some people believe in fairy tales. -August Rush

fiddlegee - Posted - 11/10/2008:  17:20:09

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I use it only when appropriate. It IS acceptable in old tyme music and bluegrass-- mostly for waltzes. The Vibrato you would do for a waltz is different from say, a classical vibrato.
Classical vibrato is fast and rapid...fiddle vibrato is usually a bit slower and more controlled and only used on longer notes. In some contests vibrato is "frowned" upon BUT almost all of the top fiddlers who win, they put vibrato in their waltzes.
The proper way to do vibrato comes with time and even then, everyone has a different way of doing it...some teachers suggest just rocking your finger back and fourth others suggest using your whole hand. Some people who aren't very experienced with vibrato will end up shaking their entire hand and thus, like Bj said, shakes the entire fiddle.
My advice to you is to not worry so much about vibrato for now, it will come with time-- I didn't learn vibrato or even thought about it
until-- my 6th or 7th year of playing. But putting a little bit of vibrato on longer notes on waltzes or airs will add a little 'somethin' to your playing and it is just another way to jazz up longer notes--it is not something you NEED, but it's nice to have.
Also-- if you let vibrato come naturally through expressing yourself while playing it will come much easier-- trust me, don't force it :)
Hope that helped :D


Grace

bj - Posted - 11/10/2008:  17:38:40

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quote:

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Some people who aren't very experienced with vibrato will end up shaking their entire hand and thus, like Bj said, shakes the entire fiddle.
My advice to you is to not worry so much about vibrato for now, it will come with time-- I didn't learn vibrato or even thought about it
until-- my 6th or 7th year of playing.

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Thanks for making me feel better. I've only been playing a little over a year. ;-)

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fiddlepLuker - Posted - 11/10/2008:  18:12:41

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..man trying to do vibrato is KILLING ME ! ! ! Certainly done correctly and with good taste it can make a beautiful song really stand head and shoulders at least to me. Now if I can just not shake my instrument apart! LOL....

6th or 7th year ! ! ! holy smokes I'll be dead from trying! Note to self "relax"

~fiddlepLuker

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Edited by - fiddlepLuker on 11/10/2008 18:14:55

janepaints - Posted - 11/10/2008:  21:35:59

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I use vibrato when I feel like using it. I really don't think about it much, even when doing it. When I was a beginner, vibrato was difficult & awkward. As I got a bit more nimble, vibrato kinda showed up of its own accord, and didn't seem so difficult or awkward anymore.

janepaints - Posted - 11/10/2008:  21:38:24

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quote:

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I know alot of FHO members feel it's not for bluegrass..........

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Hmm. They musta not ever heard songs like Bill Monroe's With Body And Soul.

janepaints - Posted - 11/10/2008:  21:49:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by bj

I don't use it for two reasons. When I try to use it on a waltz, where it just might be appropriate, the whole damn fiddle wiggles. I don't think that's the way it's supposed to happen. ;-)

---

That was my experience as a beginner, too.

Some tips from Travis Wetzel helped, though they didn't immediately help me do vibrato. During a break at a gig I asked Travis about The Vibrato Problem, since he had ZERO problems making incredible sounds with vibrato.

Travis said there's a buncha ways to make vibrato. The (typical) move-yer-fingering-finger way....the move-yer-HAND way...the move yer whole arm way....the move yer whole body way...the move the whole fiddle way...the bow vibrato way....

He also said a little vibrato goes a long way--that newbies tend to use too much motion & force in producing vibrato, which creates that sense of the entire fiddle shaking. Try to quaver yer fingers just a TEENSY bit--you'll be surprised how even the smallest movement creates that tone-wobble....and there'll be less of that 'the whole dang fiddle is shaking' feeling.

fiddlepLuker - Posted - 11/11/2008:  04:01:31

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D O H ! ! ! ! Homer................ the bow is going one direction (well actually many directions) and the fingering is going another direction then they mind goes every which way..... All I can do is laugh then put down the instrument and then go back few minutes more determined than ever. I figure one of two things will happen 1) SUCCESS! or 2) I will wear myself out!

Then along comes my 19 year old daughter who has played classical since the 5th / 6th grade picking up the 2nd violin and vibratos like no end AND with more than one finger ! ! ! DOH! and then she proceeds to explain how easy it is..... 'oh dad just keep working on it" LOL talk about motivation to the nth power....

~fiddlepLuker

TimK - Posted - 11/11/2008:  05:16:21

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Vibrato is one of many skills that make up a fiddler's "bag of tricks". If you play a style that demands a limited number of skills, and you are content to stay in that bag, then that is fine. If you want to expand your playing to include many styles, then the more skills you have, the better. In the end it comes down to a matter of personal choice. In the words of Ricky Nelson," you know, you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself".


TimK

_______________________________________________________________

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fiddlepLuker - Posted - 11/11/2008:  05:17:35

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Carol,

100% correct! ...beautiful tunes by Ungar. Count me in that category as you said.

~fiddlepLuker

fiddlerJ - Posted - 11/11/2008:  05:53:39

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Don't know if this will help or not, but it helped me a WHOLE LOT. Sorry i cant get the link to the videos im not very computer literate. But just go to the tabs page and scroll all the way down to where it says fiddle and vibrato technique. Its pretty good stuff!


jaybuckey.com/free_tablature.htm

macnasparade - Posted - 11/11/2008:  09:13:48

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fiddlerJ, thanks for posting the link for the Jay Buckey site. Looks like a lot of good stuff here. I've never seen vibrato explained that way before. Maybe I actually have a shot at learning it.

Liz

Sue B. - Posted - 11/11/2008:  11:34:34

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Vibrato in almost any style of music should be treated like frosting on the cake, and in some styles, it's not even the frosting, it's the sprinkles on top of the frosting, on the cake. // Fiddlegee isn't quite correct in describing classical vibrato as fast/rapid. Classical players tend to have an all-purpose vibrato which is more-or-less medium speed and medium width ( pitch change), and use vibrato a lot, but NOT all the time. There was a point in classical violin- playing when persistent vibrato was the norm. There's a theory that it followed the invention of the wire string and the building of the great music halls of Europe. The soloists/string players were looking for anything that would help them project. Relatively-advanced classical players can control their vibrato, so that they change the speed and the width to support their expressive choices. Slow, sorrowful or romantic pieces get a slower, wider vibrato, etc. There are generalities, but no "rules". For example, a fast,narrow vibrato might be combined with sustained notes for an eery effect. // Yes, Jay's vibrato is very beautiful. Springs from the soul. But at camp, he has told people to see one of those violinists for vibrato-technique lessons. Sue

scrubber - Posted - 11/11/2008:  11:46:49

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The responses to this topic so far have been relevant. I have a question for the moderators, however.

Is the use of vibrato a theoretical topic? I think this belongs in "Playing Advice".

mboucher - Posted - 11/11/2008:  12:35:11

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I've seen Ricky Skaggs and his son Luke both use it in a Bluegrass setting.

Mark

BanjoBrad - Posted - 11/11/2008:  14:36:12

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I don't know, Scrubber. Since the original post didn't ask for advise on how to play vibrato or where to play vibrato, I think it could be a theoretical question and therefore relevant to this Forum.

I'm inclined to leave it here. but that's my take on it.

(And, in my case, vibrato is and always will be, just a theory, not something I will ever be able to put into practice - assuming I would want to )

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Edited by - BanjoBrad on 11/11/2008 14:38:13

superdave2112 - Posted - 11/11/2008:  15:19:47

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I only use it 98% of the time.

Someone on here once said it was not for old time music. I can't remember who. It seems to work okay for Bruce Molesky and Ally Bain.

Here's a neat trick to help learn;

Put a towel or rag over your scroll, put it against the wall, like you are gonna play. Now play. Move your hand. That's it. When you are ready, move away from the wall. If you are moving the fiddle all over the place, you are not holding it enough with your chin.

Practice the speed. A little goes a long way.

Vibrato rules!!!!

Always most sincerely yours,

David Loudenback

curlyrayfan - Posted - 11/11/2008:  15:37:39

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I hardly ever use it...vibrato is a little too fancy sounding for my fiddling. When I do, its on long notes. And even then, the vibrato is small and reserved.

John 3:16

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/11/2008:  15:50:43

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Bluegrassers most definitely uses vibrato, at least all of the ones who are pros. I can't think of one who recorded with any of the big guns, past and present, who doesn't.
Fiddlegee you got this right: the vibrato in bluegrass is often very small, and nearly imperceptible at times. Sometimes used after a slide up to a sustained note.
I myself am still struggling with smoothness and find my mood plays a big part in how my vibrato sounds.

I read vibrato was used as a method of compensating for intonation, especially in up the neck playing...

Ooo. I just recalled an article by Jack Tuttle in Fiddler Magazine ('98 or '99) that talked about flexibility being an issue for some/most. I will have to try to find that and see what he said - it was something about most folks being able to vibrato when the fiddles in front of them like a guitar, but as they bring it up to their chin, the vibrato will disappear somewhere along the way, and that is where you need to start practicing, gradually working up to under your chin.
Something like that.

______________________________________
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bj - Posted - 11/11/2008:  16:08:40

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quote:

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I just recalled an article by Jack Tuttle in Fiddler Magazine ('98 or '99) that talked about flexibility being an issue for some/most.

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I'd be interested in that, if you can find it.

quote:

---

Don't know if this will help or not, but it helped me a WHOLE LOT. Sorry i cant get the link to the videos im not very computer literate. But just go to the tabs page and scroll all the way down to where it says fiddle and vibrato technique. Its pretty good stuff!


jaybuckey.com/free_tablature.htm

---

Thanks for that, I don't have the time today, but I've bookmarked that page. Seems there's a lot of good stuff in that bottom section!



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ChickenMan - Posted - 11/11/2008:  18:49:35

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Oh, I didn't mean to sound anti vibrato, and by "compensating" I wasn't implying a lack of intonation, only that at the higher frequencies the notes sound better and more in tune to our ears when vibrato is used. Richness is a good word for what I was shoot for.
I do understand what you mean by correcting intonation for I have heard that too.
Really the overuse of vibrato and a very "wide" vibrato are more of a classically trained violinist's mistakes when they switch over to OT or BG. NOT THAT IT IS WRONG. Don't miss take my use of "mistake". It is just that the vast majority of what I hear of OT, BG and even Irish music, has a different take on the use of vibrato - probably because there are far fewer sustained notes beyond a quarter note in OT etc, and much sustain in orchestral music. Many who have crossed over from orchestra violin into the folk fiddle have survived and have gone on to be mighty fine players in BOTH worlds.

______________________________________
"Fiddling makes you forget" - my wife

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Edited by - ChickenMan on 11/11/2008 18:50:18

ChickenMan - Posted - 11/12/2008:  16:29:19

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I found the article that mentions intonation - the same one by Jack Tuttle mentioned above.

"...Vibrato is often used to <soothe> intonation..."
I am interpreting this as I stated - so things sound better to our human ears. This could be a misunderstanding on my part.

______________________________________
"Fiddling makes you forget" - my wife

lucky - Posted - 11/12/2008:  22:04:54

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Uhh, I don't think I have EVER heard Bruce use vibrato. I'm sure he CAN, I've just never heard him do it.

quote:

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Originally posted by superdave2112

I only use it 98% of the time.

Someone on here once said it was not for old time music. I can't remember who. It seems to work okay for Bruce Molesky and Ally Bain.

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Ozarkian D.L. - Posted - 11/18/2008:  09:35:01

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So....I'm a chest player....always seemed awkard using a chin rest to me....HOW DO I LEARN VIBRATO ? Or is it even possible ? I lv it's sound.

curlyrayfan - Posted - 11/18/2008:  14:22:02

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ozarkian D.L.

So....I'm a chest player....always seemed awkard using a chin rest to me....HOW DO I LEARN VIBRATO ? Or is it even possible ? I lv it's sound.

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I have no freakin idea how you could use vibrato!? Speaking of being a chest player...ive tried playing the fiddle proped up against my chest. I found it very awkward. It looks old-timey and cool, though.

bj - Posted - 11/18/2008:  15:54:42

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quote:

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So....I'm a chest player....always seemed awkard using a chin rest to me....HOW DO I LEARN VIBRATO ? Or is it even possible ? I lv it's sound.

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I think it might be possible for you to do vibrato. I just read the article chickenman pointed us at, and the exercise it tells you to do has you starting off holding the fiddle more like a guitar or mando and doing the vibrato, which is EASY. You keep doing it in stages up to your chin, and the more you turn your wrist to bring the fiddle from the upright to closer to horizontal, the harder it gets to do vibrato. So it's somehow in the fact that the wrist is turned differently that makes it more difficult, at least for some people. And it's in the finger AND the wrist. Since you hold it differently, you just might have to use your finger more than would a person who uses chin/shoulder rest and who has a firmer way to support it without the left hand than you do.

I've been playing with it a bit. It's not a high priority for me since I'll only use it on waltzes and I only play one or two of those. But I am starting to "get" it. Not well, but like I said, it's not a priority. It'll come eventually.

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Fidla - Posted - 11/18/2008:  16:14:23

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I use it extensively in celtic music, particularly slow airs, waltzes. I don't use it much in bluegrass, but a lot in western swing.

The easiest way to learn vibrato is to start with the middle finger of your left hand. Holding your arm straight, put your fingertip on a table or bench and wiggle your elbow slightly...feel your bicep tighten? That's how it should feel when you're doing it right on the violin. Now get your hand in the normal position on the fiddle (you can't vibrate with a pancake hand, so make sure your wrist is straight), now put the tip of your middle finger on the string and wiggle your elbow again, but don't let your finger slide! It needs to be firmly placed on the string. Now try it with the other fingers.

Once you get the wiggle down, practice it on your scales. I have my students practicing all the major scales in 2 octaves, their relative minors and arpeggios. I suggest practicing vibrato on long slow bow strokes - 4 beats per stroke.

Have fun! Vibrato is a cool ornamentation and sounds lovely when used correctly

Adam R Sweet
adamrsweet.com

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bj - Posted - 11/18/2008:  16:47:58

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That SOUNDS like it should work celticagent, but when I tried it my finger was wiggling in the wrong direction, wiggling toward opposite strings instead of in the direction of notes on the same string! *sigh*

Ah well, I play oldtime, I just refuse to stress about it. I'm going back to practicing bowrocking and sliding. :-)

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bsed - Posted - 11/18/2008:  17:55:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by celticagent

I use it extensively in celtic music, particularly slow airs, waltzes. I don't use it much in bluegrass, but a lot in western swing.

The easiest way to learn vibrato is to start with the middle finger of your left hand. Holding your arm straight, put your fingertip on a table or bench and wiggle your elbow slightly...feel your bicep tighten? That's how it should feel when you're doing it right on the violin. Now get your hand in the normal position on the fiddle (you can't vibrate with a pancake hand, so make sure your wrist is straight), now put the tip of your middle finger on the string and wiggle your elbow again, but don't let your finger slide! It needs to be firmly placed on the string. Now try it with the other fingers.

Once you get the wiggle down, practice it on your scales. I have my students practicing all the major scales in 2 octaves, their relative minors and arpeggios. I suggest practicing vibrato on long slow bow strokes - 4 beats per stroke.
Adam R Sweet

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That's just how I learned to do it. But here's the thing: I took classical lessons from Miss Fairchild in 8th grade after school at her house, and she was trying to show me how to do classical vibrato. And I think there was more to it than that. I never caught on to what she was trying to teach me until years later I just started doing vibrato after my own fashion. And all I was doing was trying to imitate a sound in my head.
So I'd invite a classical player like Sue or Fiddlerdi to tell me how one would (if one chose) to do a classical vibrato.
Maybe that was already discussed, but I don't want to sift through all the prior posts.

Just call me Dwight.

scrubber - Posted - 11/19/2008:  10:47:26

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There is no 'classical' vibrato, per se. Classical (and other) performers determine the rate of their vibrato based on the musical context. Different speeds and widths of vibrato yield different musical/expressive results.

Most playing styles have conventions re: vibrato speed. (e.g, Kenny Baker, a player I admire, uses a slow, wide vibrato). If you have a performer or style you prefer, listen carefully to the vibrato rate(s) used...

dave

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Edited by - scrubber on 11/19/2008 11:07:31

bsed - Posted - 11/19/2008:  15:04:03

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Well that's interesting, Scrubber. Still, I can't help but feel that if I was to do my own style of vibrato for Miss Fairchild (who was a violinist in the local symphony orchestra) she'd say I wasn't doing it entirely right. I don't know.

Just call me Dwight.

Janerothfield - Posted - 11/22/2008:  15:13:45

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Vibrato is one of those things where there seems to be "taught" technique to it, then some folks just figure it out their own way and it sounds like they want it to. I feel that the use of vibrato gives another way to be more expressive-it shows up subtly in my faster melodies as well as with the slower ones.
My suggestions, technique wise, includes many of the approaches already mentioned here with this topic. Starting with the middle finger (maybe the strongest!) and with a long bow push your finger towards your nose and away back and forth-really rolling the pad of your finger on the string. It is a subtle thing really-need really SHORT finger nails as well. My philosphy about vibrato also includes tone-so if you really want to delve here goes!
So when you are playing vibrato on a longish note, at the beginning of the note, have no vibrato then gradually increase it to the middle of the note, decreasing it at the end of the note. this emulates more of how a voice might use vibrato (not the big opera way!) to enhance the tone and emotion of the music.
I haven't every really explained this before so I hope this makes some sort of sense. If anyone wants, I can upload an example of what that might sound like on my member page. Just let me know!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/01/2008:  00:48:16

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I use vibrato a lot....
when I'm playing blues guitar.

When I'm playing fiddle, hardly at all.

Part of it's taste, and part of it's due to the technical challenge.

Too much vibrato or pitch modulation of ANY kind makes me a bit queasy.
I seldom like vibrato as an effect on electric guitars, I dislike operatic singing
mostly because of the vibrato, and even though I play a Stratocaster electric
designed around a whammy bar, I never use it.

And SO much vibrato on fiddle/violin seems overdone to me.
And so much of my repertoire is so archaic that vibrato seems inappropriate.

However, there are a very few tunes that I wish I had a good vibrato for.
I usually content myself with a slight quiver or shake of the left hand,
and concentrate on being expressive with the bow,
because part of the problem is that while left hand vibrato is easy for me on guitar,
the position on fiddle feels so locked up in comparison that it just doesn't work very well.

So I guess my motivation to overcome the technical problems involved is pretty low.

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

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ChickenMan - Posted - 12/01/2008:  10:21:47

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"...because part of the problem is that while left hand vibrato is easy for me on guitar,
the position on fiddle feels so locked up in comparison that it just doesn't work very well."

Michael, that locked up feeling is exactly what the Fiddler Magazine article I referenced (in an earlier post) addressed. There seems to be a physical barrier to vibrato that involves a lack of flexibility when your wrist is turned in the fiddle playing position. I could send you the article if you are interested.

Motivation is always an issue for me too. The way the article says to practice it isn't all that tedious when compared to working scales or other, non tune playing rituals.


______________________________________
"Fiddling makes you forget" - my wife

bj - Posted - 12/01/2008:  10:40:23

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The article ChickenMan references did help me. Can I do vibrato well? Hell no. But I can kinda sorta do it now, where before I couldn't do it at all. I don't have huge motivation to perfect it at this time, but I feel like I at least have another tool in the toolbox now, if I want to call on it.

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curlyrayfan - Posted - 12/01/2008:  13:51:35

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo


When I'm playing fiddle, hardly at all.

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That's the way I am. Not because I don't know how...because I do...but because I play that older style of bluegrass.
(Ex: Bill Monroe, Ralph Stanley)

In these styles, vibrato is just a quick shake of the left hand. It does not have a major emphasis placed upon it.

Barry1963 - Posted - 12/06/2008:  13:32:02

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Ive just recently started trying vibrato...its hit and miss so far

curlyrayfan - Posted - 12/06/2008:  13:37:43

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quote:

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Originally posted by Barry1963

Ive just recently started trying vibrato...its hit and miss so far

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When I first started playing I couldn't do it either. But now after a few years I can do it. But i choose not to.

BTW, welcome to Fiddle Hangout.

Barry1963 - Posted - 12/06/2008:  15:09:18

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Thanks for the welcome curlyrayfan

Feistyfidlr - Posted - 12/10/2008:  05:16:42

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I'm with Sue B. I enjoy listening to some of the experienced players use it. I, on the other hand, can not vibrato....yet.

"If you only knew the things I want to say and don''t, you''d give me some credit."
~Maud Montgomery

Feistyfidlr - Posted - 12/15/2008:  02:50:22

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LOL I like what one of my classmates said, "First I have to know how to vibrato, then I'll worry about using it"!

Feistyfidlr - Posted - 12/15/2008:  03:04:51

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quote:

---

Originally posted by celticagent

The easiest way to learn vibrato is to start with the middle finger of your left hand. Holding your arm straight, put your fingertip on a table or bench and wiggle your elbow slightly...feel your bicep tighten? That's how it should feel when you're doing it right on the violin. Now get your hand in the normal position on the fiddle (you can't vibrate with a pancake hand, so make sure your wrist is straight), now put the tip of your middle finger on the string and wiggle your elbow again, but don't let your finger slide! It needs to be firmly placed on the string. Now try it with the other fingers.

Once you get the wiggle down, practice it on your scales. I have my students practicing all the major scales in 2 octaves, their relative minors and arpeggios. I suggest practicing vibrato on long slow bow strokes - 4 beats per stroke.

Have fun! Vibrato is a cool ornamentation and sounds lovely when used correctly

Adam R Sweet
adamrsweet.com

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I'm going to share this with my classmates as long as you have no objections, celticagent? This is one of those easier said than done exercises.

holmansf - Posted - 12/16/2008:  22:05:08

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I was classically trained on viola, and I seem to recall doing v e r y s l o w vibrato when I was first learning. As celticagent said above, my teacher had me practice vibrato on scales. I would even use a metronome and do an even number of "wahs" on each note. I think using a metronome and concentrating on making the vibrato even helps develop control. Also, I'd suggest trying scales with different types of vibrato. Try just moving the finger first, and then moving from the wrist, and then moving from the elbow. Most of my vibrato comes from the wrist I think.

I'm no expert though ... .

Fidla - Posted - 12/19/2008:  05:48:56

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I find I use less vibrato in bluegrass and more in celtic

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Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com

curlyrayfan - Posted - 12/19/2008:  11:41:31

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I find myself using more vibrato in waltzes. I guess I natureally want to make them sound pretty.

FiddlinCol - Posted - 12/21/2008:  08:52:03

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G'day all.
I tend to think that vibrato is a product of being relaxed. I have a student who is a guitar player and she always seems to press her fingers too hard on the strings. A reminder is all she needs now and then , its usually with some new fingering that involves stretches that tighten her up.
Vibrato comes without too much difficulty if your left hand is relaxed. Sometimes when I'm playing a big long note, I drop the thumb right off the neck so I can really get that forearm/wrist waivering or pendulum effect.

Vibrato makes the violin resonate more or sing.

Hope this helps Col.