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rastewart - Posted - 12/21/2008: 20:03:36
A very difficult habit for me to break, too, and I don't even have the excuse of having been (much of) a guitar player. If I ever get past it, then maybe I can think of developing a vibrato--it's not even on the horizon now.
~Rich
P.S. Sometimes I think some of my troubles with the fiddle have to do with being used to the piano--which at least holds still while you're doing whatever you're trying to do! 
_____________________________________________
... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft
Edited by - rastewart on 12/21/2008 20:08:05
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/22/2008: 03:49:00
I had trouble with pressing too hard too. My teacher had me first practice without even pushing the string down to the fingerboard. You can still get a decent tone without even touching the fingerboard.
My teacher was classical so we started with the arm vibrato, using the bicep muscle. Without pressing the string to the fingerboard, you're actually sliding back and forth on the string. I recommend starting with the arm (bicep) because once you can do this a little, wrist vibrato (what most fiddlers use) will be very easy.
One concept that helped me was learning that the first movement was back, going lower in pitch and then back up. So you start at pitch, go a little flat and then back up to pitch. Beginners should definately practice this exercise, even if you aren't interested in vibrato, because you need to be able to make those micro-adjustments in pitch with your finger anyway.
TimK - Posted - 12/22/2008: 05:45:49
I use two types of vibrato depending on the desired pulse. Wrist vibroto for faster pulse and elbow vibrato for a slower sustained pulse. Both have there place and are effective.
TimK
_______________________________________________________________
Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.
curlyrayfan - Posted - 12/22/2008: 11:31:34
Wrist vibrato? Elbow Vibrato? Theres a difference! Oh man...
Somebody explain please...
TimK - Posted - 12/22/2008: 11:44:40
With wrist vibrato the source of movement is from a flexed wrist.
Elbow vibrato is produced by locking the wrist and creating movement from the elbow.
TImK
_______________________________________________________________
Wrangle up yer mouth parts, drag yer banjer out, tune yer ole geetar till it twangs right stout, for the snow is on the mountain and the wind is on the plain, so we''ll cut the chimny''s moanin with a livelier refrain.
rastewart - Posted - 12/22/2008: 12:09:21
And then there's whole-body vibrato--when you are playing in public for the first time and shaking like an aspen leaf ...
_____________________________________________
... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft
Percy - Posted - 12/22/2008: 12:30:07
That will probably be me Christmas Eve -- I'm playing Schubert's "Ave Maria" as a fiddle solo during our church service. I'm sure it will be "whole body vibrato" -- I don't think my bow stroke is the only kind of stroke I'll have to worry about!!
FiddlinCol - Posted - 12/23/2008: 07:42:10
It gets better. There's finger vibrato as well.
The main thing is to be relaxed. Always when playing fiddle.
Everything with the violin works in arcs. And the process of playing is similar to Tai Chi. Practise long bows and sway in the direction of the bowstroke. It dosent have to be exaggerated, just enough to get the feeling in your body and to become more body sensitive to the instrument. I love the way I can feel the fiddle through the collar bone and it vibrates my chest . Col.
scrubber - Posted - 12/23/2008: 13:08:56
quote:
Originally posted by rastewart
And then there's whole-body vibrato--when you are playing in public for the first time and shaking like an aspen leaf ...
This is mostly
right hand vibrato!
i.e., the 'quiver' comes from an unsteadiness in drawing the bow.
There was a classical player in the seventies who consciously used this technique -- I
think his name was Charles Treger (?), but I don't remember...
dave
Edited by - scrubber on 12/23/2008 13:30:59
Feistyfidlr - Posted - 12/24/2008: 11:22:58
quote:
Originally posted by rastewart
And then there's whole-body vibrato--when you are playing in public for the first time and shaking like an aspen leaf ...
_____________________________________________
... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft
ROFL
God put a fiddle in my hands
and told me to play.
Fidla - Posted - 12/24/2008: 19:43:19
vibrato comes from the biceps
______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/25/2008: 03:44:30
quote:
Originally posted by celticagent
vibrato comes from the biceps
Except for when it comes from the wrist.
Here's an explanation of it:
youtube.com/watch?v=C_SqnFb1qTY
Edited by - fiddlenbanjo on 12/25/2008 03:48:40
Fidla - Posted - 12/25/2008: 05:49:27
I should correct it and say my vibrato comes from the bicep. I clench there, and tense my forearm muscles slightly. I leave my wrist loose. There's only one or 2 fingers on the fingerboard when I vibrate. I have total control over the speed and width of the movement.
______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/25/2008: 06:32:31
I wonder do some people start a vibrato with the bicep, slowly, and then gradually speed the vibrato up going into a wristy vibrato? I guess it would depend on the situation. I don't, at least not yet. I'm still working on making my vibrato. I'm a bicep vibrato player, but I always thought that in practice the ultimate would be to have both available.
Perhaps most people either gravitate to one or the other.
curlyrayfan - Posted - 12/25/2008: 08:27:34
quote:
Originally posted by celticagent
I should correct it and say my vibrato comes from the bicep. I clench there, and tense my forearm muscles slightly. I leave my wrist loose. There's only one or 2 fingers on the fingerboard when I vibrate. I have total control over the speed and width of the movement.
______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com
On the rare occasion I use vibrato, i do it like this.
oldtimer - Posted - 12/25/2008: 08:36:58
quote:
Originally posted by FiddlinCol
It gets better. There's finger vibrato as well.
Yes, the great old bluegrass players almost all preferred a finger vibrato...Kenny Baker showed me close-up how he did it. And Mark O'Connor taught it to me when he was spending a few days at my house back in the late 70's.
Arm and wrist vibrato is appropriate for post-Kreisler classical. The only trad fiddler I can think of who does it is Martin Hayes. I, personally, always thought he sounded ridiculous.
The Bobby Casey video is a great example of very appropriate trad vibrato...none.
stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
curlyrayfan - Posted - 12/26/2008: 21:02:43
Vibrato has become a habit for me. I try not to use it but, my fingers have a mind of their own and they do it any way
FiddlinCol - Posted - 12/27/2008: 08:06:07
Its cool to accent a note. At the top of a phrase for emphasis, or introduced towards the end of a long slow note, to give it emotion..e.i. in both cases to let the fiddle sing.
Vibrato should happen naturally as your technique improves and your fiddle voice, becomes real. Col.
curlyrayfan - Posted - 12/27/2008: 10:19:26
quote:
Originally posted by FiddlinCol
Vibrato should happen naturally as your technique improves and your fiddle voice, becomes real. Col.
Very true...
scrubber - Posted - 12/27/2008: 14:13:30
quote:
Originally posted by curlyrayfan
Vibrato has become a habit for me. I try not to use it but, my fingers have a mind of their own and they do it any way
Now that you've got the motor running, it's time to work on
control.
I don't know the complete situation, curlyrayfan, but based on your post it looks like you need to focus on the rate (i.e., the number of pulses per beat) of vibrato you want to use,
when you want to use it -- an involuntary vibrato is probably a nervous 'tick'.
I would recommend focusing on generating
specific rates of vibrato (i.e., try doing it 'fast and tight', 'slow and wide,' everything in between and none at all) to get a handle on it.
Vibrato is a wonderful expressive device but it can
ruin a performance if it's out of control....
dave
curlyrayfan - Posted - 12/27/2008: 14:48:16
quote:
Originally posted by scrubber
quote:
Originally posted by curlyrayfan
Vibrato has become a habit for me. I try not to use it but, my fingers have a mind of their own and they do it any way
Now that you've got the motor running, it's time to work on control.
I don't know the complete situation, curlyrayfan, but based on your post it looks like you need to focus on the rate (i.e., the number of pulses per beat) of vibrato you want to use, when you want to use it -- an involuntary vibrato is probably a nervous 'tick'.
I would recommend focusing on generating specific rates of vibrato (i.e., try doing it 'fast and tight', 'slow and wide,' everything in between and none at all) to get a handle on it.
Vibrato is a wonderful expressive device but it can ruin a performance if it's out of control....
dave
You're right about how I need to work on control. I'm not sure how to capture the long and wide etc.
Sometimes my "vibrato" is a nervous tick, but other times it just happens. Kinda like I have no control over it.
Eric Sprado - Posted - 12/27/2008: 21:54:09
I don't know guys------ I hear this different kind of vibrato stuff every now and then and it really puzzles me. I'm not a contest winner or a real pro but nobody has ever said my playing isn't sweet or that I'm not a REAL fiddler(well okay one jerk did once) and all I know is to use my wrist for a nice sweet vibrato. You can do what you want with it. Use a quick short vibrato at onset like Stephan Grapelli or go through whole note with it like some of us schmalz purveyors. Relaxed is most important thing in playing and stiffening up wrist to vibrate from elbow seems counter productive. Flexing from biceps is what I do three times a week at the gym. Don't want to offend but I've NEVER known any of my role models to vibrate except from wrist. I watched some Kenny Baker a few hours ago on UTube and his wrist was vibrating even though he may have been thinking "fingers"..
Percy - Posted - 12/28/2008: 03:43:40
Eric -- I don't care where the vibrato comes from!! If I could figure out a way to wiggle anything while moving the bow -- I'd be a happy woman! The minute I start to try any vibrato -- my bow stops. But then, I never could "pat my head and rub my bell," or "walk and chew gum" come to think of it!
I've been trying to research the vibrato thing -- and it seems widely accepted that there are different ways of doing it.
All I do know is that it does add a certain sweet element -- especially when playing the slower tunes -- that really seems to put a polish on things.
rastewart - Posted - 12/28/2008: 11:13:26
I can relate to the whole "pat my head and rub my belly" thing--coordination has never been--
*dang!* excuse me while I get a rag and clean this up--
--where was I?--oh yeah, never been my (*ouch*! Who put that there?) strong suit. Which makes the fiddle a challenge in itself, of course, though one well worth pursuing. And I also have no vibrato, none whatever. My one & only teacher some years back said, essentially, don't worry about it; get the other stuff down (the 183,566 other things, did I miss a few?), and when you are comfortable with them, revisit the whole vibrato thing. That's what I plan to do. I'd very much like that bit of burnish that a good vibrato can give, but if I never get to that point, then I'll just have to make my vibrato-less style the best vibrato-less style that I can manage.
~Rich, a.k.a. Mr. Virtue Out of Necessity
_____________________________________________
... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft
coelhoe - Posted - 12/28/2008: 11:29:14
For me it is mostly a wrist movement. I just did it, and never really worked at it. But over the years I have not been very successful in showing others how to do it. Either they get the idea or they don't. One of my adult students, who is struggling with almost everything else in playing the fiddle, last week asked me how to correct her vibrato, which she said must be wrong. It was perfect! I can take no credit.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
Fidla - Posted - 12/29/2008: 06:16:38
quote:
Originally posted by curlyrayfan
quote:
Originally posted by celticagent
I should correct it and say my vibrato comes from the bicep. I clench there, and tense my forearm muscles slightly. I leave my wrist loose. There's only one or 2 fingers on the fingerboard when I vibrate. I have total control over the speed and width of the movement.
______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com
On the rare occasion I use vibrato, i do it like this.
I use vibrato in the following styles:
Irish/Scottish - slow airs, waltzes
Contradance - waltzes
Bluegrass - Gospel songs
Western Swing
Klezmer
______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com
curlyrayfan - Posted - 12/29/2008: 09:31:02
I use vibrato more on the slower, prettier gospel songs as well.
FiddlinCol - Posted - 01/01/2009: 07:07:38
Happy New Year all!
Had a lightbulb moment...thus.
Classical theory as I remember it was , rock the string below and up to the pitch of the note. And thats what works.
In steel guitar territory or slide guitar you vibrate above and below the note. And that works too.
Just realised that if I'm playing blues note on fiddle I tend to go steel and slide finger above and below rather than rocking fingertip.
It gives me a wider vibrato and if you talk 3rds or 5ths there's alot of notes in there .
Does not mean that you cant fudge on learning true fiddle vibrato because it makes the fiddle sing. Same applies that just because you start a bow stroke off hard to get it going....degrees for different instruments..... once the string is vibrating you can lift slightly and surf the note ... the instrument sings and L/H vibrato makes it louder and sweeter.
Col.
Fidla - Posted - 01/01/2009: 08:24:09
That's cool, col
______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com
curlyrayfan - Posted - 01/01/2009: 12:05:38
Could you use vibrato if you hit a bad note to ease your way onto the right note?
scrubber - Posted - 01/01/2009: 12:24:00
Yes, but it's 'damage control"
!
It's better to practice playing in tune and to save the vibrato for expressive purposes!
dave
curlyrayfan - Posted - 01/01/2009: 15:18:46
quote:
Originally posted by scrubber
Yes, but it's 'damage control"!
It's better to practice playing in tune and to save the vibrato for expressive purposes!
dave
Oh, I know. I do practice playing tune, but I just heard some violin player talk about this "damage control".
oldtimer - Posted - 01/03/2009: 11:45:41
Vibrato is the great cover-up for poor intonation. Intonation is much more difficult for "non-vibrato" southern fiddlers and authentic players of baroque music.
With typical symphonic constant vibrato, you can be off pitch a quarter step and the heavy vibrato will mask the poor intonation.
Vibrato was considered to be an ornament for occasional use in baroque string music, like the turn or the mordent. Overuse was frowned on even in 19th century classical.
It was only after Fritz Kreisler's tour and popularity starting in 1901, that constant vibrato became in vogue with violinists. Now, most of them consider it normal, but it wasn't so until the 20th century.
Fritz Kreisler had been rejected from the Vienna Philharmonic because of his excessive vibrato derived from the Vienna gemütlich style. But, it became popular after his 1901-1903 American tour and incessant vibrato caught on.
Some think that it was a dreadful downturn in classical tastes, but most are not aware that it wasn't always there rather than an aberration based on the excessive style of one 20th century performer.
Never-the-less, audiences are used to hearing it and they expect it....there is nothing wrong with using it (but, please, not when playing Bach).
As an old-time dance fiddler, I have had little use for vibrato except for a touch of it on waltzes. But. in recent years, I have been recruited into a Django-inspired swing group and I play tunes like Stardust and Nuages with as much vibrato as I can muster. It's a great cover-up for my poor intonation
stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
curlyrayfan - Posted - 01/03/2009: 13:55:10
quote:
Originally posted by oldtimer
Vibrato is the great cover-up for poor intonation.
With typical symphonic constant vibrato, you can be off pitch a quarter step and the heavy vibrato will mask the poor intonation.
stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
At least I'm not the only one who covers up his mistakes with a touch of vibrato...
Fidla - Posted - 01/04/2009: 06:33:27
I agree with Oldtimer - many of my students that are starting out realize they can use vibrato to cover poor intonation, that's why we work on vibrato aggressively, learning how and when to use it and using specific arm, hand and finger exercises to develop the right muscles for judicious use.
______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 01/04/2009: 07:52:42
Even if you weren't going to use much vibrato you should probably practice it because it lightens your touch and improves your overall left hand dexterity, which helps you make those small adjustments in intonation among other things.
Before players learn to use vibrato they are usually tense and awkward with their fingering hand, at least I was.
FiddlinCol - Posted - 01/04/2009: 10:47:00
Right on Fiddlenbanjo.
The trick is to get their ears working before even allowing vibrato.
It can be a mask for bad pich but prob not too bad because the vibrato works from on pitch to slightly below and back again.
If the fundamental note is flat, vibrato wont help unless the pitch is raised. Wouldnt that be a conscious decision?
More likely to find that sort of fudge with slide guitar.
But I must confess it has helped me to pitch when I cant hear too well. Think going through the PA with inadequate foldback....no frets!
Classical technique tends to look at applying it after the note is reached for nuance....Generally!
Either way it shouldnt be a prioity to playing. Most OT music I've heard , has no vibrato. Learn pitch first.
Just read latest posts....
Sometimes my vibrato comes from my body shaking left shoulder. and the follow on to the fingers.
Usually the groove.....
Col.
"A man thats got nothin to say is a liar!"....Old Roadhog, Lester Moran.
Fidla - Posted - 01/04/2009: 11:06:18
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo
Before players learn to use vibrato they are usually tense and awkward with their fingering hand, at least I was
I know I was too!
______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com
holmansf - Posted - 01/05/2009: 19:11:58
Players who come from a classical background may be familiar with viola jokes, which I am allowed to tell since I play viola. One of my favorites is:
Q: How do you get a violist to play vibrato?
A: Write "solo" over a whole note. ;)
curlyrayfan - Posted - 01/12/2009: 13:55:33
I was playing with a piano player the other day at church, and I noticed that I used more vibrato. I reckon it was to try to make my fiddling sound "pretty".?
curlyrayfan - Posted - 01/19/2009: 13:58:30
How does the movement of the left hand create the noise it does...I just don't get it.
_______________________________________________________________
“I''ve always called my music old time mountain music or old time bluegrass music. I wouldn''t have it any other way."
-Ralph Stanley
coelhoe - Posted - 01/19/2009: 14:35:30
I don't know what you mean by "noise." The sound of the vibrato is caused by moving the fingered pitch slightly sharp and then slightly flat, back and forth as the finger rocks on the string.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
curlyrayfan - Posted - 01/20/2009: 08:31:13
I meant sound....
_______________________________________________________________
“I''ve always called my music old time mountain music or old time bluegrass music. I wouldn''t have it any other way."
-Ralph Stanley
abeeric - Posted - 02/01/2009: 11:29:32
quote:
Originally posted by curlyrayfan
I was playing with a piano player the other day at church, and I noticed that I used more vibrato. I reckon it was to try to make my fiddling sound "pretty".?
OK, so I'm not a piano player at all, so this is actually a real question. You can use vibrato on a piano?? Really??
I can't vibrato at all, I'm with Percy, as soon as I start to move my finger my bow stops and I forget entirely what I'm playing...lol.
bluray - Posted - 02/01/2009: 11:39:32
I havent completely mastered vibrato yet but once i do i plan to use it. As a bluegrass fiddler vibrato ads alot to long whole notes and slower songs...
Fiddlepiper - Posted - 02/15/2009: 13:13:10
Some do, some don't........just depends. I love hearing Mark O' Connors vibrato on certain tunes..."Somewhere Over the Rainbow". Most contestant finalist are getting ahead with their use of vibrato. Not so much in Sligo or Donegal style, but, I do use it in Scottish fiddling, and my classical pieces, so, it just depends, but, it will come in handy....makes the notes pretty!
Terry
Paul Huppert - Posted - 04/24/2009: 07:15:52
Actually, a well trained classical violinist can vary the speed of vibrato from fast to quite slow, depending on the context of the music.
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlegee
I use it only when appropriate. It IS acceptable in old tyme music and bluegrass-- mostly for waltzes. The Vibrato you would do for a waltz is different from say, a classical vibrato.
Classical vibrato is fast and rapid...fiddle vibrato is usually a bit slower and more controlled and only used on longer notes. In some contests vibrato is "frowned" upon BUT almost all of the top fiddlers who win, they put vibrato in their waltzes.
The proper way to do vibrato comes with time and even then, everyone has a different way of doing it...some teachers suggest just rocking your finger back and fourth others suggest using your whole hand. Some people who aren't very experienced with vibrato will end up shaking their entire hand and thus, like Bj said, shakes the entire fiddle.
My advice to you is to not worry so much about vibrato for now, it will come with time-- I didn't learn vibrato or even thought about it
until-- my 6th or 7th year of playing. But putting a little bit of vibrato on longer notes on waltzes or airs will add a little 'somethin' to your playing and it is just another way to jazz up longer notes--it is not something you NEED, but it's nice to have.
Also-- if you let vibrato come naturally through expressing yourself while playing it will come much easier-- trust me, don't force it :)
Hope that helped :D
Grace
Paul Huppert - Posted - 04/24/2009: 07:21:12
Well put, also it is helpful to draw an analogy with the human voice (singing, that is). Some use more, some use less, some use none at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Sue B.
Vibrato in almost any style of music should be treated like frosting on the cake, and in some styles, it's not even the frosting, it's the sprinkles on top of the frosting, on the cake. // Fiddlegee isn't quite correct in describing classical vibrato as fast/rapid. Classical players tend to have an all-purpose vibrato which is more-or-less medium speed and medium width ( pitch change), and use vibrato a lot, but NOT all the time. There was a point in classical violin- playing when persistent vibrato was the norm. There's a theory that it followed the invention of the wire string and the building of the great music halls of Europe. The soloists/string players were looking for anything that would help them project. Relatively-advanced classical players can control their vibrato, so that they change the speed and the width to support their expressive choices. Slow, sorrowful or romantic pieces get a slower, wider vibrato, etc. There are generalities, but no "rules". For example, a fast,narrow vibrato might be combined with sustained notes for an eery effect. // Yes, Jay's vibrato is very beautiful. Springs from the soul. But at camp, he has told people to see one of those violinists for vibrato-technique lessons. Sue
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