Speaking of whom (don't know how freely he was playing, given that he was in Alcatraz):
Edited by - Old Scratch on 08/14/2026 15:15:03
i like it, but probably not Al Capone:
"More often than not, photos circulated online under captions like "Al Capone playing banjo in his cell" are actually just modern photos of actors, museum tour guides, or visitors posing in a reconstructed Alcatraz cell with a prop instrument.
Because no authentic photos of Capone playing music were ever allowed to be taken inside the prison, people end up staging or recreating the scene—and those modern photos eventually get reposted online out of context, leading to the confusion."....Gemini Ai
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 08/15/2026 08:10:44
You must be fun at a party!
quote:
Originally posted by Old ScratchYou must be fun at a party!
Yes i realise i could have extrapolated upon the myth to enhance the narrative.
Al Capone did like music, but probably not the banjo. He had an orchestra of his own. I worked on a violin that had been played in that orchestra a while ago.
Perhaps if he had taken up the banjo at Alcatraz, that would partially explain his death in psychosis!
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 08/16/2026 06:26:31
quote:
Originally posted by martyjoeI’m not so sure about the idea that we’re going to play some sort of mix/blend of the players that we’ve been listening to or players we aspire to emulate. I for one are nowhere close to sounding like any of the fiddle players that have influenced/inspired me. I think we all know some players who have been at it for decades and they are just terrible. So bad that it makes you wonder if they spent their time listening to Al Capone pulling a sub-machine gun out of his violin case.
I agree that players don't necessarily sound alike, but that's due to the imperfection of human nature and the inability to completely reproduce what's heard. The best players, however, are those who have the greatest ability to produce a controlled and reliable sound and can imitate a certain kind of tone well. That's why when you hear a great player, it's like they're playing on a completely different level, almost like they've unlocked the violin in a way that regular players can't. There's depth of sound and color palette that appears only with good playing. It's extremely difficult to reach that level, and no great player does it unassisted.
At best, we're faithful representations of our influences. At worst, we sound like garbled gibberish. When players spend decades and still sound awful, that's bad playing and/or a bad ear.
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by martyjoeI’m not so sure about the idea that we’re going to play some sort of mix/blend of the players that we’ve been listening to or players we aspire to emulate. I for one are nowhere close to sounding like any of the fiddle players that have influenced/inspired me. I think we all know some players who have been at it for decades and they are just terrible. So bad that it makes you wonder if they spent their time listening to Al Capone pulling a sub-machine gun out of his violin case.
I agree that players don't necessarily sound alike, but that's due to the imperfection of human nature and the inability to completely reproduce what's heard. The best players, however, are those who have the greatest ability to produce a controlled and reliable sound and can imitate a certain kind of tone well. That's why when you hear a great player, it's like they're playing on a completely different level, almost like they've unlocked the violin in a way that regular players can't. There's depth of sound and color palette that appears only with good playing. It's extremely difficult to reach that level, and no great player does it unassisted.
At best, we're faithful representations of our influences. At worst, we sound like garbled gibberish. When players spend decades and still sound awful, that's bad playing and/or a bad ear.
Well I consider myself to be up towards the 'At best' category since I just found myself playing in the final of the All Ireland competition. I've only been playing fiddle for less than 10 years and I'm 66 years old. I fully believe it doesn't matter what I've listened to in the last 10 years. The same thing if you put some strange musical instrument on my lap that I've never heard before and give me 10 years to exlpore it. I will play it based on the experience of having played my accordion, flute, pipes & saxophone. That is exactly what I do with the fiddle with the exception of getting some basic lessons on how to hold it and bow it correctly.
quote:
Originally posted by martyjoequote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by martyjoeI’m not so sure about the idea that we’re going to play some sort of mix/blend of the players that we’ve been listening to or players we aspire to emulate. I for one are nowhere close to sounding like any of the fiddle players that have influenced/inspired me. I think we all know some players who have been at it for decades and they are just terrible. So bad that it makes you wonder if they spent their time listening to Al Capone pulling a sub-machine gun out of his violin case.
I agree that players don't necessarily sound alike, but that's due to the imperfection of human nature and the inability to completely reproduce what's heard. The best players, however, are those who have the greatest ability to produce a controlled and reliable sound and can imitate a certain kind of tone well. That's why when you hear a great player, it's like they're playing on a completely different level, almost like they've unlocked the violin in a way that regular players can't. There's depth of sound and color palette that appears only with good playing. It's extremely difficult to reach that level, and no great player does it unassisted.
At best, we're faithful representations of our influences. At worst, we sound like garbled gibberish. When players spend decades and still sound awful, that's bad playing and/or a bad ear.
Well I consider myself to be up towards the 'At best' category since I just found myself playing in the final of the All Ireland competition. I've only been playing fiddle for less than 10 years and I'm 66 years old. I fully believe it doesn't matter what I've listened to in the last 10 years. The same thing if you put some strange musical instrument on my lap that I've never heard before and give me 10 years to exlpore it. I will play it based on the experience of having played my accordion, flute, pipes & saxophone. That is exactly what I do with the fiddle with the exception of getting some basic lessons on how to hold it and bow it correctly.
If you've truly taken the world by storm with only basic lessons and ten years of playing, that's an accomplishment that surpasses that of many of the greatest players in history. Are all the major recording labels fighting to represent you and are you planning a world tour? Even if you didn't win the competition, being in such a position of distinction must be very important to the music world.
Who needs Michael Coleman anymore?
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by martyjoequote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by martyjoeI’m not so sure about the idea that we’re going to play some sort of mix/blend of the players that we’ve been listening to or players we aspire to emulate. I for one are nowhere close to sounding like any of the fiddle players that have influenced/inspired me. I think we all know some players who have been at it for decades and they are just terrible. So bad that it makes you wonder if they spent their time listening to Al Capone pulling a sub-machine gun out of his violin case.
I agree that players don't necessarily sound alike, but that's due to the imperfection of human nature and the inability to completely reproduce what's heard. The best players, however, are those who have the greatest ability to produce a controlled and reliable sound and can imitate a certain kind of tone well. That's why when you hear a great player, it's like they're playing on a completely different level, almost like they've unlocked the violin in a way that regular players can't. There's depth of sound and color palette that appears only with good playing. It's extremely difficult to reach that level, and no great player does it unassisted.
At best, we're faithful representations of our influences. At worst, we sound like garbled gibberish. When players spend decades and still sound awful, that's bad playing and/or a bad ear.
Well I consider myself to be up towards the 'At best' category since I just found myself playing in the final of the All Ireland competition. I've only been playing fiddle for less than 10 years and I'm 66 years old. I fully believe it doesn't matter what I've listened to in the last 10 years. The same thing if you put some strange musical instrument on my lap that I've never heard before and give me 10 years to exlpore it. I will play it based on the experience of having played my accordion, flute, pipes & saxophone. That is exactly what I do with the fiddle with the exception of getting some basic lessons on how to hold it and bow it correctly.
If you've truly taken the world by storm with only basic lessons and ten years of playing, that's an accomplishment that surpasses that of many of the greatest players in history. Are all the major recording labels fighting to represent you and are you planning a world tour? Even if you didn't win the competition, being in such a position of distinction must be very important to the music world.
Who needs Michael Coleman anymore?
???? (I only made the final. I didn't win the thing)
Maybe he mistook your 'At best', (as in 'At best we're faithful representations of our influences') for 'best' as in 'best in the world'?
In which case lol
The written word - often misinterpreted unless the writer has similar skill.
quote:
Originally posted by martyjoequote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by martyjoequote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by martyjoeI’m not so sure about the idea that we’re going to play some sort of mix/blend of the players that we’ve been listening to or players we aspire to emulate. I for one are nowhere close to sounding like any of the fiddle players that have influenced/inspired me. I think we all know some players who have been at it for decades and they are just terrible. So bad that it makes you wonder if they spent their time listening to Al Capone pulling a sub-machine gun out of his violin case.
I agree that players don't necessarily sound alike, but that's due to the imperfection of human nature and the inability to completely reproduce what's heard. The best players, however, are those who have the greatest ability to produce a controlled and reliable sound and can imitate a certain kind of tone well. That's why when you hear a great player, it's like they're playing on a completely different level, almost like they've unlocked the violin in a way that regular players can't. There's depth of sound and color palette that appears only with good playing. It's extremely difficult to reach that level, and no great player does it unassisted.
At best, we're faithful representations of our influences. At worst, we sound like garbled gibberish. When players spend decades and still sound awful, that's bad playing and/or a bad ear.
Well I consider myself to be up towards the 'At best' category since I just found myself playing in the final of the All Ireland competition. I've only been playing fiddle for less than 10 years and I'm 66 years old. I fully believe it doesn't matter what I've listened to in the last 10 years. The same thing if you put some strange musical instrument on my lap that I've never heard before and give me 10 years to exlpore it. I will play it based on the experience of having played my accordion, flute, pipes & saxophone. That is exactly what I do with the fiddle with the exception of getting some basic lessons on how to hold it and bow it correctly.
If you've truly taken the world by storm with only basic lessons and ten years of playing, that's an accomplishment that surpasses that of many of the greatest players in history. Are all the major recording labels fighting to represent you and are you planning a world tour? Even if you didn't win the competition, being in such a position of distinction must be very important to the music world.
Who needs Michael Coleman anymore?
???? (I only made the final. I didn't win the thing)
That was the point. Bragging about getting to the final and then promoting your short time playing the instrument and inadequate instruction as proofs of your methods is ridiculous. If you'd won, perhaps you could make some kind of argument.
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 08/17/2026 05:17:42
Ok, if you say so.
I'd say getting to the All-Ireland Fleadh finals in any instrument is pretty impressive!
Yup agreed!! Congrats Marty Joe!
SPeaking of multi-instrumentalists…I played with a guy in sesh yesterday…first he played some jigs on flute - great pulse and tone. THen he took out his fiddle and started some sets of reels, great! Then our backer went to go chat with her friends listening at the other table… so he picks up her guitar and starts playing perfect chords with great timing, up high on the neck. He had his banjo there too, in the case…I remember playing Humors of Ballyloughlin with him before and on banjo he did such great improv, playing with the ‘twang’ and all the shotgun triplets. Yea that guy is not human…:-D
For some comparison, one of the winners of this year’s Fleadh from the DC area is a decorated All-Ireland musician who has a long history in music and teaches at university level as well as hosting one of the premier sessions in the DMV.
Believe it or not, he was a classically trained pianist and choral singer before getting a degree in jazz keyboard and still takes an active interest in Renaissance polyphonic singing when not performing or writing Celtic music. Formal instruction and a classical background must not have done harm.
Does one play more freely with fe a personal luthier built fiddle?
Can you get stuck in level because of the limits of equipment? Can you actually literally almost 'feel' this or would that rather be imagination?
I played on a rental fiddle once … It does make a difference! The neck felt thick and the string action was a bit high, making life harder. It had a thin hollow sound no matter how you tried to play it. (They told me that was a $1k fiddle, but I’m skeptical…)
I don’t think most hobby players need a “custom luthier-built” instrument, but something with a good setup and a tone/sound that you personally like, is worth it and makes a difference!
quote:
Originally posted by QuincyDoes one play more freely with fe a personal luthier built fiddle?
Can you get stuck in level because of the limits of equipment? Can you actually literally almost 'feel' this or would that rather be imagination?
A player can play unhindered by the equipment of the setup is good and the instrument is made well. In some cases, even a poorly made instrument can be made to work well if it's revoiced and set up properly.
Having a violin made by a maker is a really personal thing, as it gives you the unique opportunity to know the instrument's craftsman and maybe even have a hand in the choices made during its construction. This is not something that's necessary for any player to have, but it does have a great deal of personal meaning and it supports contemporary makers.
Looking at it dispassionately, a player just needs a well-made, well-set up violin. That can be old or new and it can be made by any number of hands--so long as the product performs well. When you reduce the number of hands in production, you theoretically get a product that's made more consistently according to principles. A maker has certain targets for the plates, for example, and by making them himself, he has the ability to keep them in line with each other.
A beginning player benefits from an instrument that functions well. I should qualify that by saying that I've seen Russian teachers who force their students to use violins that aren't very good as beginners (they have to "earn" a better instrument after practicing and progressing enough over some time) and yet manage to turn out very good players. But if you don't have a teacher who will terrify you into playing well, it's advisable to start with something that puts you into the best position to improve and offers the path of least resistance.
One of the biggest problems beginners face in selecting instruments is that they have no idea what makes for a good violin as they have not yet learned how to draw a good tone, let alone evaluate an instrument. It takes a long time and a real understanding of violins to be able to discern, and that's where teachers or luthiers who play well often provide an invaluable service to their students. Someone who understands the requirements as well as the budget of a student can find a good balance and help a beginner to select an instrument that will promote growth. That person, if they're savvy enough, can also help the student to avoid a money sink or sometimes to choose something that can appreciate in value.
Even experienced players can get stuck when they're paired with violins that don't do what they need.
Assuming a minimum of quality in construction and setup, there is a lot of subjectivity when it comes to choosing for tone, and this is where personal and audience preference can make a bigger impact on choices. A violin that sounds great to one player may not impress another at all. The violins that sell most reliably are those that appeal to the broadest spectrum of players and audiences.
That was an interesting explanation Rich.
I have the impression the ear wants some variation also, when I've played too long on my old fiddle , I take the one that I bought brand new and vice versa, I do this with my bows also and also with my 2 wooden mutes.
I once saw an advertisement from a guy nearby selling the violin his luthier built for him, for a price considerably lower than he must have paid for the hours in the atelier and the materials. I don't know how often this is offered on the market but it's not for my budget anyway, but to me it seemed like a rather unique opportunity.
I might one day try my luck again to find a very dark sounding fiddle on the second hand market. A fiddle for when I am ready for modal tunes...
I am playing a luthier built instrument now (Kelvin Scott made mine) and am amazed at the difference it has made in my intonation. I always struggled to get fifths in tune and thought it was just me, but I'd been playing on the same instrument since high school. This fiddle somehow tells my fingers where to go. For me, it was a game changer!
quote:
Originally posted by martyjoequote:
Originally posted by bacfireThe jams on Rich's end of Virginia are clearly very different from the ones on the other end of the state.
And the other side of the Atlantic. There is merit to some of his points. I see young people getting disillusioned with sessions here too. We certainly like to do our own thing but I hope we're not a bunch of savages. The young ones here are mad into learning really complex tunes that I've heard some of us more senior folk call it jazz (which it isn't) because you can't follow the chords without knowing the tune. I learn my tunes from sessions, I almost never take a tune home to learn.
I can relate to this, especially the idea that sessions can feel very different depending on where you are. I also think there’s something valuable about learning tunes directly in a session, because you develop your ear and learn to follow the music rather than relying entirely on written arrangements.
quote:
Originally posted by alex_morgan26quote:
Originally posted by martyjoequote:
Originally posted by bacfireThe jams on Rich's end of Virginia are clearly very different from the ones on the other end of the state.
And the other side of the Atlantic. There is merit to some of his points. I see young people getting disillusioned with sessions here too. We certainly like to do our own thing but I hope we're not a bunch of savages. The young ones here are mad into learning really complex tunes that I've heard some of us more senior folk call it jazz (which it isn't) because you can't follow the chords without knowing the tune. I learn my tunes from sessions, I almost never take a tune home to learn.
I can relate to this, especially the idea that sessions can feel very different depending on where you are. I also think there’s something valuable about learning tunes directly in a session, because you develop your ear and learn to follow the music rather than relying entirely on written arrangements.
Welcome to the forum Alex
I think it’s important to remember, though, that the transmission of tunes and/or technique through sessions is a modern tradition, really a very modern one in the context of the fiddle’s history. In accounts of fiddlers at old contests (pre-jam and session) there is description of a wide variety in playing styles, even within the same region. The jam session encourages an entire local group to play tunes the same way, and as a result, players at sessions are often only distinguishable by the level of technique they’ve achieved, but not by nuance or style. That’s not to say that sessions and jams are bad things, just that I don’t see them as freeing in any way. As I’ve said many times, I hear players declare that sessions are dangerous for professional musicians because they tend to make playing more homogeneous, not less so. According to that view, the way to retain a personal style is to stick to performances alone or with a dedicated band that shares a similar artistic vision.
Older generations of fiddlers learned by watching other fiddlers perform or by competing against them in contests. Whatever was gleaned from listening had to be carried back home in the mind and then navigated by practice to the best of the diminishing recollection. Fiddlers who lived in more populous areas were more aware of the popular musical styles, and they picked up bits and pieces and added them to the tunes they played. Fiddlers borrowed from European traditions that were introduced as various settlers’ communities sprang up and from African, classical, Ragtime, and Jazz recorded and live performances.
It’s true that many fiddlers didn’t read music and therefore had to learn everything by ear, but that should not be taken as a universal description of fiddling. Fiddle tune books were printed and used widely throughout history, and they were an important part of the preservation of tunes over ages. In Scotland, for example, literacy was given great importance on the national level. That extended to music literacy, and as a result, books upon books of tunes were printed and distributed widely. In colonial America, tune books written in England were sent over the ocean to be played at country dances. The detachment from the printed page is not quite the descriptor it's made out to be.
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 09/23/2026 17:37:06
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulBelieve it or not, he was a classically trained pianist and choral singer before getting a degree in jazz keyboard and still takes an active interest in Renaissance polyphonic singing when not performing or writing Celtic music. Formal instruction and a classical background must not have done harm.
While working as a restaurant server I discovered that every American has a different definition of "crispy bacon" and I think the same is true for "classically trained". Some players have three years of middle school orchestra experience and others session players will call that "classically trained", since they didn't learn at their grandfather's knee. I for one do have a degree in music, but all of my "classical" learning was done in parallel with local musicians of all type and variety throughout my childhood and young adulthood. We're lucky to have such a wealth of musical experiences at our fingertips, and young people have now access to literal TOMES of videos and tune books so the distinction will likely grow even fuzzier.
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