Most of the old time jams I've been to, everyone plays in unison, and while a stronger player may start a tune off, there doesn't seem to be an expectation that people play a tune a certain way. Many times it would be hard to discern what any particular player is playing, especially in jams with 10+ fiddlers (which aren't uncommon). And I haven't encountered any of the unfavorable reactions.

The jams on Rich's end of Virginia are clearly very different from the ones on the other end of the state.

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Originally posted by bacfire

The jams on Rich's end of Virginia are clearly very different from the ones on the other end of the state.

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And the other side of the Atlantic. There is merit to some of his points. I see young people getting disillusioned with sessions here too. We certainly like to do our own thing but I hope we're not a bunch of savages. The young ones here are mad into learning really complex tunes that I've heard some of us more senior folk call it jazz (which it isn't) because you can't follow the chords without knowing the tune. I learn my tunes from sessions, I almost never take a tune home to learn. 

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Originally posted by bacfire

The jams on Rich's end of Virginia are clearly very different from the ones on the other end of the state.

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I noticed the same in Southwestern Virginia as well.

Based on what I read regularly on this forum, that seems to be the way jams go just about everywhere: a leader leads and everyone else follows as closely as they're able. Those who play are able to follow play at similar volume to the leader and sit close, those who aren't sit farther away if there's a single leader for the jam or in the outer layers of the jam onion if there isn't and quietly move their bows and fingers in their best approximations. Everyone talks about certain versions of tunes being popular at certain jams. If you play anything that's actually different, it's called a "jam buster" because the rest of the group can't follow along. When a tune is played in a version that's not common to the group, there's ususally a comment along the lines of "That's not the way we usually play it." Sometimes those comments are meant innocuously, sometimes they're meant as a warning that you're not confirming to the group and are in danger of not being invited back or encouraged to play a different kind of music that allows for your wild ideas.

I'd say the jams I attend are actually friendly for the most part and the participants are eager for more players, if a little melancholy that there are no young players anymore. Perhaps at the jams I attend there's more of a scholarly focus on tunes than at other jams around the country (the people on the Old Time listserv like to email back and forth with tune lists from the jams, complete with which version was played, tune history, and/or source recording links).

None of that changes the point, though. Jams are more like orchestra rehearsals than improvisation sessions and there's a disconnect between what beginning players are told to prioritize to become good players and what is expected of them when they start to play with others. 

Some of the jams around here have a leader, but no one's watching and trying to play like them. They're just there to keep the tune selection moving, and they can start a tune (or come in strong on one) if the person who called it isn't able to. Nobody's bows are moving in the same direction.

There are some younger people at the old time jams, but I think once someone gets to a certain level of ability, they don't like to play exclusively in the large jams, where everything can be a mush. I've been invited to smaller jams with the understanding that they need me to play one of the grunt-work instruments (guitar or bass), so I know the smaller jams exist . The larger jams are always open to all and being "invited back" isn't an issue.

There’s a new thing (to me) that has come into jams here is the ‘hup’ thing. If someone wants to take the call for the next tune they’ll yell out ‘hup’ about 5 or 6 bars from the change and everyone will follow their lead. It works well.

Rich you give good ideas, but its always, I feel, in the context of a celtic or old time jam, where experimentation is looked down upon. ANd Ive been to a few of those. One, an OT jam, works strictly from a tune book. Strictly. Not much fun for someone like me, who learned by the seat of my pants. Honestly I've been to more jams where what you play is what you play, be mindfull of clashes and have a good time. The title of the thread contains "playing freely". TO me that means something entirely different than what you pose.

Indeed it seems these OT jams are closer to a band/orchestral setting. Like it or not. One gets a set list. One knows the key. One can go home and practice said setlist. Gives one a sense of security.
I didn't understand never knowing the key, let alone, the next song was difficult. This was the type of jam I was brought to twenty years ago. Only later was I to attend one of these o.t. jams. The trance thing wasn't for me. I enjoy coming up with a break on-the-fly. The tune could be anything from Bluegrass, Country, Western swing, Jazz to classic rock. I dunno? To each their own.

Despite the fact that there're very limit or next to none 'strictly tunes sessions' in my area, I wouldn't attend them anyway for fear of boredom of playing the same genre over and over.

I prefer the jams when they sing songs, which can come in many genre. That's when I'm truly enjoying myself by making up my accompaniment part, improvising and experimenting.

That's my definition of; 'to play freely'.

Ear training, Theory and Technique, (Not necessarily Classical), will serve any player well.

Just got to keep plugging away at the above, until a situation arises where you feel you are "playing freely." To me that just means playing within my current limits.

Well, types of jams...... OT, everybody plays the same tune with everybody else to the limit of their ability. There will always be a snooty player that looks down on someone that does not play "exactly" the version they learned listening to some specific recording. Those persons are not "most" fiddlers. If you are in a jam where this is what's going on.. de rigueur .. find another jam. Bluegrass jams, know the chord changes and play them if you don't know the actual melody. Tempo may be challenging. Play what you know how to play and hang in there. Don't be concerned about putting your fiddle under your arm. Nobody has to play everything. Gospel / Old Country ..... the chord changes with a "reasonable " tempo. Some of my favorite types. Jazz...... I admit to enjoying swing , Joe Venuti and Eddie Lang .... bebop IDK.... beyond my level of experience. But mostly play what you know and steal licks wherever you may. Which IMO is playing freely. Enjoy the process. R/

Believe it or not, there's a podcast that's entirely devoted to the etiquette of playing in Irish sessions....

Irish sessions have developed into a pretty complex culture, with wide variation in content and traditions, but the universal norm seems to be that of playing tunes (or more commonly sets of tunes) in approximately unison, with or without chordal backing. Improvising around the melody is not a thing (with a few exceptions like waltzes).

Songs may be sung, and that gives the melody instruments the opportunity to do some tasteful fills or harmony riffs, or a solo instrumental verse where some improvisation around the melody is fine (as happened recently on a rendition of 'Caledonia' at our weekly session-- the low whistle made a beautiful solo).

Playing freely in this context means, at least to me, that when you are the tune 'leader', you get to set the tempo, the level of 'swing', and call the following tune(s) in the set (either announced beforehand or on the fly). This to me is more than enough to satisfy.

If you are a tune follower, you may hold off playing until you get the gist of how the leader is playing the tune, then do your best to follow.  But ideally all the players are listening to each other, and some magical give-and-take things can happen when everyone is paying attention. 

This clip from "The Boys (and Girl) from County Clare" was posted recently on thesession.org in a thread about tune variation, and I can't resist re-posting it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6YSdgl5n-M&t=51s

I’ve played at a lot of different jams and sessions. They vary quite a lot in some ways. A friend of mine started a session at a local pub several years ago (it was just the two of us playing fiddle tunes and songs for the first few months). Over time the session has grown a little and now has a pretty solid group of regulars. It has always been a main tenet of the session that it’s open to any and all players, and while we mainly play traditional Irish music, if anyone is eager to play something else, we’re just happy to have an extra participant for a tune or song and we’ll do our best to follow along. At a recent session, a Russian waiter who always enjoys listening when he’s on shift came up and told us that he played the guitar. A tune we’d played had reminded him of a song that school children sang in the morning every day when he was growing up in Russia. We asked him if he’d like to sit in and he eagerly agreed. He didn’t know Irish tunes, so after retuning out of DADGAD quickly we just suggested he pick something he played. He then launched into a rather nice gypsy jazz number, so I improvised with him a bit. Most of the people in the group weren’t used to that style and couldn’t join in, but I think the consensus was that it was nice to have someone show interest in playing and it didn’t hurt to shift gears for a couple minutes. Some of the players at that session have told me that they consider it a refuge from some of the other sessions in the area where players are often quite rude or belligerent. Just recently I heard about a very good player who was discouraged from playing at the big session in the area led by a locally legendary player. When the player showed up, the leader told him “Don’t you dare play any f@&?ing Sligo tunes in my session.” At another session, there is an assistant leader who will stop a tune and yell at a player for not playing in unison, tell that player not to play, then restart the tune.

The Old Time jams around here are typically pretty friendly, and while they’re held in the DMV area, they draw some players from further out. The biggest Old Time crowd is around Baltimore. There’s an etiquette to the jams, but it’s not usually enforced because everyone there already knows it pretty well. There are occasionally some moments where individual players are difficult, but it’s generally pretty laid back.

I haven’t played in the bluegrass jams much, but I went a little when I lived in Arlington. That was one of the most unpleasant experiences I’ve had. I showed up and joined the circle (everyone was standing in a park) and then another fiddler (who had taken a break before I arrived) walked up to me and told me that I had to move somewhere else because I was in her spot. It wasn’t as though I was sitting in a chair that belonged to her or standing next to her purse or case, both of which were on a picnic table elsewhere. I was just in the spot of grass she had claimed. The level of playing was not very high, and most of the breaks were pretty badly butchered. But every player was absolutely required to take a break on every single tune. When I tried to pass on a break in a tune that wasn’t familiar, I was told that wasn’t allowed and then forced to play anyway. I think someone said something like “Either play when it’s your turn or go somewhere else.” I don’t think I’ve ever seen such an extensive mixture of rule enforcement and poor playing. I heard that an Old Time jam started up there in another spot during the same time, but I’ve never gone back to try it because the bluegrass jam was so unpleasant.

I think the concept of playing freely is complicated. There’s a freedom in playing whatever style you want, although that can have an impact on audiences or playing groups—covering too many bases can get a little chaotic at times. If you’re the only one who can play most of the repertoire, it can unintentionally alienate the group. Part of the social contract of playing in the group is acknowledging that you have to consider the other players and tailor to fit what they do.

There’s also freedom of expression in playing. This one gets even more complicated because it can be viewed through the lenses of tune and version selection or articulation. It can seem freeing to be able to choose any version of a tune that you like, although you come up against difficulty playing in a group if your preferred version clashes. Freedom of articulation is also problematic, as that can easily devolve into arguments about whether you’re in keeping with the original spirit of a tune. If you play with vibrato, it may be due to your own preference for tone, but it’ll get shouted down by players who will accuse you of being chained to a classical playing background.

Then there’s the freedom that comes from knowledge and experience. When you understand the music intimately, it gives you a greater freedom to make decisions about its interpretation because your choices can be more carefully considered and will have a certain consistency with the spirit of the original that is lacking when a variation is made without much understanding. Bach was arguably the greatest master of counterpoint in history, yet he broke the rules of counterpoint. Much of his mastery came from his perfect understanding of the style that informed his decisions in selectively breaking rules to make music that sounded perfect. I keep thinking about Stravinsky’s claim that freedom of expression can only follow from a carefully controlled foundation.

I’m not convinced that a focus on playing freely is really a sensible idea for players who are not advanced. I think it’s a routine mistake for beginners to attempt to leap up the staircase rather than taking a step at a time; when you take the leap, you have a much higher chance of falling on your face and missing the stair. I think the focus in early and intermediate stages should really be on the mechanics of playing the instrument and learning to play tunes well. In the aural tradition this puts a much greater emphasis on directly copying. If you don’t want to sound like other fiddlers, working from sheet music would actually give you more license to interpret tunes, as you’d be learning their structure without the bias of a recording to push you in a certain direction—once you’ve heard a recording it can influence your playing forever, for better or worse.

It has also gotten my attention that there are a number of resources devoted to the etiquette of playing in jams and sessions. To me that means that the emphasis on following set rules is important to a broad playing demographic and there is an expectation that an aspiring player learn these things before approaching a group so as not to offend. It’s really not all that different from being expected not to clap between movements at an orchestra concert and getting glared at by other people if you’re unaware.

On some level, an intense focus on playing freely seems a little ridiculous to me. Playing well strikes me as a much more important goal. And it’s rather ironic that so many players who talk so much about wanting to sound different accomplish the exact opposite.

One of the players I most admire absolutely idolizes Kreisler. He told me once that he felt that he only played one good note on my favorite of his recordings. He told me that the difference between Kreisler and himself was that Kreisler was able to make every note good whereas he could just accomplish one. In that sense you could say that he idolizes and imitates a player and that his background that directly ties him back to Corelli in the line of violin instruction makes him a strict copyist. Yet he’s described (aptly, in my opinion) as a player with a truly unique voice. I’d gladly listen to him any time over someone who was on a quest for the self.

Last nites Tues jam included:
I've Endured
Ragtime Annie
Scotland
Friend of the Devil
Blues Aint Nothin'
?something Sunshine
Carey Brown
Gospel Plow
Ring of Fire
Road to Columbus
Minor Swing
and lots I cant remember.
Had a fiddler from Fla in town, named Tommy, and he and I are on similar levels, but he started on classical and I play strictly by ear. One of few fiddlers like that where most would not detect the classical influence (i did), but man we clicked like long lost brothers. Been a long time since I enjoyed a jam so much! Thats playing freely!

You gotta get your ears & fingers in sync, something that takes lots and lots of practice. Luckily though (or is that unluckily?), most of my jams were with fellow David Bragger students and therefore easy to fall into. When I went to jams outside the Bragger Periphery, I just had to rely on the fact that, in general, apart from the tendency toward crookedness, OT tunes are simple enough to get under your fingers in a few verses.

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

When a player is trying to learn to fiddle and looking for a way to sound more authentic, the advice given is often to play to one’s own taste and to simply experiment with ways of playing or other means of personal expression to come up with a uniquely personal interpretation of a tune. Fiddling is presented as a means to escape the supposed tyranny of playing from a page or a teacher or some other form of structured learning. Listening to recordings is encouraged, but with the proviso that you’re supposed to then do what you want, opening the door for you to be “creative” in your playing and to forge your own path unhindered by convention.

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Who's giving that advice to someone who wants to sound more authentic? If someone wanted to sound more authentic (which raises the question, authentic to what?) I would steer them to those teachers who specialize in more prescriptive methods (for old-time, David Bragger, Brad Leftwich, Bruce Molsky, etc., who focus on specific bowings and other techniques). Even then, you're going to sound like yourself, and like a mixture of who you've been listening to. The "do what you want" advice doesn't seem responsive at all.

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Originally posted by screecher

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Who's giving that advice to someone who wants to sound more authentic? If someone wanted to sound more authentic (which raises the question, authentic to what?) I would steer them to those teachers who specialize in more prescriptive methods (for old-time, David Bragger, Brad Leftwich, Bruce Molsky, etc., who focus on specific bowings and other techniques). Even then, you're going to sound like yourself, and like a mixture of who you've been listening to. The "do what you want" advice doesn't seem responsive at all.

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I completely agree with your assessment, but that's not the popular opinion on the forum, even though it seems to be in the real world. In thread after thread here, someone will ask for help to sound more like a fiddler, only to be told to go figure it out on their own and not to listen to what any figure of authority says about how to play (excepting the writer of the comment, of  course!). When the name of a popular fiddle instructor is spoken, there is an immediate response of hissing. The instructor is torn down for not sounding like the original fiddlers (who they are varies by the commenter) and taking instruction is described as becoming a slavish imitator who plays without musicality or understanding.

A focus on technique and bowing patterns is often rejected as either unnatural or just an effort to turn fiddling into another branch of classical music.

"Do what you want" is not just unhelpful, it does considerable harm. 

Yeah I don't know. I haven't really seen any examples of that. Do you have any example links?

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Originally posted by screecher

Yeah I don't know. I haven't really seen any examples of that. Do you have any example links?

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https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60461

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60517

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60919

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60699

Here are a few threads that I found with a quick search. There are some voices that are more prominent in the promotion of the "play however you feel" theory, and they can sometimes dominate the threads and create an unrealistic impression that they represent normality. I know there have been other threads I haven't linked, but some of them are probably further back in the archives and don't show up in a quick search.

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by screecher

Yeah I don't know. I haven't really seen any examples of that. Do you have any example links?

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https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60461

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60517

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60919

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60699

Here are a few threads that I found with a quick search. There are some voices that are more prominent in the promotion of the "play however you feel" theory, and they can sometimes dominate the threads and create an unrealistic impression that they represent normality. I know there have been other threads I haven't linked, but some of them are probably further back in the archives and don't show up in a quick search.

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Someone's asking for help in these threads? 

Screech you should know that discussions on here often descend into verbiage battles free thinkers vs hide-bound traditionalist and really not much actual good playing advice gets posted. But it makes for semi-entertaining reading, alike to watching those kinetic sculptures that spin and whir and vibrate, slowly decomposing and falling apart, usually with he who writes the most claiming what ever victory looks like. Me, I like to spend more time playing then writing. If folks did that, we might have more sound files being posted, which could actually help newbies.

Bring on the popcorn!

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Originally posted by screecher

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by screecher

Yeah I don't know. I haven't really seen any examples of that. Do you have any example links?

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https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60461

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60517

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60919

https://www.fiddlehangout.com/topic/60699

Here are a few threads that I found with a quick search. There are some voices that are more prominent in the promotion of the "play however you feel" theory, and they can sometimes dominate the threads and create an unrealistic impression that they represent normality. I know there have been other threads I haven't linked, but some of them are probably further back in the archives and don't show up in a quick search.

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Someone's asking for help in these threads? 

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I don't think you have to literally say "help me" for it to be a request for help. Saying "I'm looking for recommendations for how to play ___" is an appeal for information, as is asking for advice in teaching beginning students.

There have been numerous threads over the years started by posters asking for advice on how to sound more like a fiddler that follow the pattern I've listed, but they're not all within the archive available for viewing under each section  on this site. 

It seemed like the same 5 to 10 people hitting on their pet topics/hobbyhorses. Nothing wrong with that but I don't see it as guidance that someone has asked for.

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

The slide thread got me thinking about an area of cognitive dissonance in fiddling that could be its own topic for discussion.

When a player is trying to learn to fiddle and looking for a way to sound more authentic, the advice given is often to play to one’s own taste and to simply experiment with ways of playing or other means of personal expression to come up with a uniquely personal interpretation of a tune. Fiddling is presented as a means to escape the supposed tyranny of playing from a page or a teacher or some other form of structured learning. Listening to recordings is encouraged, but with the proviso that you’re supposed to then do what you want, opening the door for you to be “creative” in your playing and to forge your own path unhindered by convention.

But then you go to a jam, where a tune is played by a group of players. The leader plays the tune a certain way, and the rest of the group is expected to follow the leader. You can try to throw some of your own ideas in, but if anyone can hear you doing it, you’re likely to elicit some unfavorable reactions. When you look for information on jam etiquette, you hear the same things over and over: follow the leader, play the way the rest of the group plays, learn the versions of tunes that the group plays, don’t pick tunes that no one else plays or versions that no one else plays, play at the tempo of the others, don’t try to stick out, match the other players closely, etc.

When you compare those things, it seems as if fiddling is two diametric opposites at once. While on the one hand it’s described as a carte blanche artistic license, playing in a jam with other players is all about conforming to the group. Reading the etiquette rules, it’s in many ways like playing in an orchestra: follow the leader, blend with the group, don’t stick out, take the lead when it’s your turn, pay close attention to how the other players play, etc. The main differences are that you’re not playing with a conductor holding a baton, but rather more in the baroque fashion of being led by a violin player, the seating arrangements are different, there aren’t music stands or sheet music, and you’re not playing for an audience. Otherwise, the rules are fairly similar.

So between being told to play without regard to convention and also being told to conform, what is a player to do?

I think this is a reason that I hear more young players saying that they don’t want to play in jams these days. Many of them say that the jams are detrimental to their musical development. I’m not sure if that’s accurate, but I do see a significant conflict in philosophies and I wonder if that’s a reason for the state of Old Time at present.

It reminds me of Rousseau’s Social Contract. The savage is completely free in his independent existence, but to be free also means that he is in a constant state of warfare with the rest of the world as his domain is limited to one person and he enjoys no benefits of social cohesion. In entering the social contract, he exchanges freedoms for the securities of the civilized world (shared resources, protection, friendship, etc.). If he acts against the social contract, he risks being cast out of the group, and while that restores his freedom, it also returns him to being in constant war with the world. Perhaps viewing it this way would make better sense of the fiddling world. You are free to play as you wish on your own, but playing in a group means having to exchange a certain amount of that freedom for any benefits conferred by playing together. I worry that the focus on freedom of expression sets young players up to be frustrated once they start playing with others. They’ve been told to play however they want, but then they discover a set of rules that comes across as overly restrictive once they look for others to share their music.

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" that you’re supposed to then do what you want"...

This really just means making a tune your own. That's something we all do if we play a tune long enough. It morphs. It becomes individual. And if its done INTENTIONALLY, it becomes your own interpretation.