quote:
Originally posted by JonDBelieve it or not, there's a podcast that's entirely devoted to the etiquette of playing in Irish sessions....
Irish sessions have developed into a pretty complex culture, with wide variation in content and traditions, but the universal norm seems to be that of playing tunes (or more commonly sets of tunes) in approximately unison, with or without chordal backing. Improvising around the melody is not a thing (with a few exceptions like waltzes).
Songs may be sung, and that gives the melody instruments the opportunity to do some tasteful fills or harmony riffs, or a solo instrumental verse where some improvisation around the melody is fine (as happened recently on a rendition of 'Caledonia' at our weekly session-- the low whistle made a beautiful solo).
Playing freely in this context means, at least to me, that when you are the tune 'leader', you get to set the tempo, the level of 'swing', and call the following tune(s) in the set (either announced beforehand or on the fly). This to me is more than enough to satisfy.If you are a tune follower, you may hold off playing until you get the gist of how the leader is playing the tune, then do your best to follow. But ideally all the players are listening to each other, and some magical give-and-take things can happen when everyone is paying attention.
This clip from "The Boys (and Girl) from County Clare" was posted recently on thesession.org in a thread about tune variation, and I can't resist re-posting it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6YSdgl5n-M&t=51s
"We are not playing Jazz, leave that to The Beatles"
I don't know about this discussion, I mean jams are jams and playing the fiddle is playing the fiddle. I go to a jam, when I feel like it and it works out, and I figure out how to fit in or add something that works. I learn fiddle tunes because I want to learn certain fiddle tunes in certain styles. Sometimes the two are joined but I don't worry if they don't. I mean I can play Old Joe Clark or Cumberland Gap to fit in with about anything. I also learn specific versions of those tunes that would never work at a jam sessions and that is a whole different thing.
How to encourage young people (or any new learner)? Who knows? They, like all the rest of us, have to figure out where they want to go and what works for them and the idea that jams can be set for all the different approaches that people have , or whatever, and have it excite and encourage them is probably not achievable.
quote:
Originally posted by pmiller510How to encourage young people (or any new learner)? Who knows? They, like all the rest of us, have to figure out where they want to go and what works for them and the idea that jams can be set for all the different approaches that people have , or whatever, and have it excite and encourage them is probably not achievable.
This is something I think is very important, and it's worth comparing jams and sessions in this respect. Jams tend to be a lot looser, and there's less emphasis on playing the exact notes of a tune. Some Old Time players have gotten more fastidious about the notes, but there's still a lot of objection to following any pattern and advice given to "make it your own" when it comes to instruction. Players dive straight into trying to sound unique as they're also trying to learn tunes. Then they show up to a jam, and everyone wants to play specific versions or asks what version has been played if they don't recognize yours. The disconnect between the learning style and the jam etiquette is a turnoff for a lot of players, as they tend to find jams very dull.
At sessions there's a much greater emphasis on exactness of the tune. Some variation in ornamentation is allowed, but within limits. Tunes are also taught this way. There may be different versions of a tune, but if you attend a session, you need to play the same version as the others. It doesn't come as a surprise or disappointment because you've been instructed to follow a tune carefully from the beginning. I think that logical consistency is a major reason why younger players care about Irish and Scottish music, while Old Time is only a passing curiosity for most.
Trying too hard to accommodate everything can just lower the quality overall. This is why the "play it your way" philosophy tends to yield such abominable results. I remember very well a comment that a highly respected luthier once made about customers who wanted to have work done in special ways to accommodate their own ideas: "I tell them 'if having it your way' is the most important thing to you', there's a Burger King down the road where you can have that." The plaint was that watering things down would destroy quality and even lower the reputation of the workman. I think this is something to consider with jams: if you try to cater to whims instead of focusing on the key components of the music, it just cuts the heart out of it.
I think what makes a jam interesting is the quality of the tunes. If the players come into it just thinking about how they can sound special, the tunes get lost in the tin-eared soul-searching.
The question of how to draw younger players in more is raised a lot, and it's frustrating how tone-deaf a lot of the responses are (not just with Old Time). Younger players are NOT looking for ways to feel special. There's a reason why the word authenticity became a key word in Millennial and Gen Z conversations. But older generations keep trying to entice younger players by suggesting that they can sound unique. No one cares about that. Focus on quality and the results will be better. That has worked much better with other genres. Gen Z is more interested in classical music than many previous generations. Ballet lessons are far more popular than interpretive dance lessons.
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 08/08/2026 09:59:33
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful
Ballet lessons are far more popular than interpretive dance lessons.
I didn't know that.
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Woodquote:
Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulBallet lessons are far more popular than interpretive dance lessons.I didn't know that.
A lot of traditional styles that are rule-oriented are much more popular lately. I think a lot of it comes as a rejection of the "do whatever you feel like" attitude that came from an older generation. Ballet is popular (studios are all over and classes fill up fairly quickly), and opera has had a sudden increase of interest. A Hollywood actor made a passing comment that dismissed opera, and he was trolled into oblivion for it predominantly by younger people. It's now become popular to take pictures of full opera houses or selfies in the auditorium to prove that opera is not dead at all. Classical violin playing is in great standing throughout the world, and the summer programs require audititions for acceptance because there are simply too many applicants. Although some orchestras have folded, it's usually been the result of poor management, not lack of interest in the genre, and the competition for positions is tougher than ever. Players who have held positions for some time tell me that they would never stand a chance if they had to audition against today's field of applicants. If you read posts about trying to get into music school on Violinist.com, you'll feel as though one has to step out of the womb playing the Bruch violin concerto and already having mastered all solo Bach. I've watched kids from the music schools play incredibly difficult pieces with ease. I showed bows to a girl who said she "didn't really play that much anymore" and has chosen to pursue a different major; she immediately started playing a Paganini caprice brilliantly. In addition to that, I see lots of younger kids who just have a broader knowledge of the music now. They don't just know the violin literature, many of them also know all the symphonic literature. It's humbling to behold. When you have that kind of voracious curiosity, confronting it with advice to "figure it out for yourself" is offputting.
Did you ever have a substitute teacher who showed up not knowing anything about the subject but trying very hard to appear knowledgeable by just asking the kids a lot of questions to get them to repeat what they'd already learned, trying to mask their ignorance of the subject with a weak suggestion that they were approaching the material "outside the box?" The students could always see through it and those classes didn't typically go very well. Reading some of the comments about playing or teaching Old Time feels a lot like that.
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 08/09/2026 11:30:26
I wonder what percentage of classical music students and ballet dancers will keep it up into adulthood, once there's no parental pressure or concern for resume-building? How many of them will play music for personal enjoyment as adults, and how often?
quote:
Originally posted by screecherI wonder what percentage of classical music students and ballet dancers will keep it up into adulthood, once there's no parental pressure or concern for resume-building? How many of them will play music for personal enjoyment as adults, and how often?
How many community orchestras are there throughout the country? There are lots of them around here. The NIH has one of its own comprised of medical professionals who have expressed an interest in playing as adults.
There are also a lot of people who play in their youth, stop during high school or college, and then pick it back up a while later.
I haven't seen any statistics about longterm devotion, but the amount of enthusiasm for the music says a lot about it. I'm still waiting to see a young person stick with Old Time long term.
Ballet is a tough comparison because it's somewhat like gymnastics--very tough on the body, requiring an extremely athletic physique (at least at high levels), and essentially impossible to maintain into middle age and beyond. Good dancers often transition into teaching or choreography, unless they pivot to a more forgiving style of dance. There was a dance school in my hometown that was nationally recognized for its ability to prepare young dancers for a career in ballet in the best companies. Most of those kids went on to have careers in dance and then retired to teach once they were worn out from the physical demands or sidelined by severe injuries.
Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 08/09/2026 17:12:54
Daughter was first chair sax in the H.S. jazz orchestra in a school system that regularly took 1st in almost all categories in Washington DC NHSMA. Kid was good, put Coltrain solos in front of her, she played great. Graduated and hasn't touched her sax since. 2 sons were taught by me, by ear, playing freely (in the context of this discussion), starting with classic rock (the good stuff) and moved onto B.G., Old Time, Celtic and swing. We are in our 25th year performing together.
Suburbs of New York City - aint no swarms of people, young or old, clamoring to start community orchestras or dance troupes around here. Mabe something in the water?
We didn't have strings at any of my schools, but we did have marching and concert band. I would guess that 1-2% of my bandmates might still be playing their instruments. Band taught me how to read standard notation, for which I'm very grateful, but we didn't learn much about the language of music there. I had to learn about chords and playing by ear on my own.
I think we've all had that experience where someone with classical training comes to the jam and is at a disadvantage because playing by ear wasn't part of their education.
There are young kids who start playing old time, those who grow up around it, and keep playing as adults. The Onlies are a group that comes to mind. Like I wrote elsewhere, if you start young and get good at it like a lot of players do, you probably avoid the large jams.
Probably a better metric for interest in old-time is attendance at festivals like Clifftop. From what I've heard it's fairly robust.
A lot of time musical activities draw an older crowd because older people have more free time. It's super common for people to put aside playing music during their young adult years.
I go to some bluegrass jams where I'm one of the younger players (in my 40s), some where most people are my age or younger. The old time jams might skew a little older but there are still several people in their 20s and 30s.
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin BeautifulThen they show up to a jam, and everyone wants to play specific versions or asks what version has been played if they don't recognize yours.
This hasn't been been my experience at any old-time jam ever, so I don't know what to say about it.
quote:
Originally posted by wrench13Daughter was first chair sax in the H.S. jazz orchestra in a school system that regularly took 1st in almost all categories in Washington DC NHSMA. Kid was good, put Coltrain solos in front of her, she played great. Graduated and hasn't touched her sax since. 2 sons were taught by me, by ear, playing freely (in the context of this discussion), starting with classic rock (the good stuff) and moved onto B.G., Old Time, Celtic and swing. We are in our 25th year performing together.
Suburbs of New York City - aint no swarms of people, young or old, clamoring to start community orchestras or dance troupes around here. Mabe something in the water?
Jazz wasn't part of the comparison, and it has some of the same problems that Old Time faces due to its difficulty in identification (hence the thread about the subject). That accounts for some of the quitting. But I don't think arguing that kids quit in school is really the most apt comparison to begin with, as kids quit all kinds of activities as their interests change or they have to make hard decisions about their school curriculum. Most kids that play a sport in school aren't going to play it in college or beyond, but that's not a failing in the athletic programs.
Also, there are a LOT of community orchestras in and around New York City.
quote:
Originally posted by bsed55" that you’re supposed to then do what you want"...
This really just means making a tune your own. That's something we all do if we play a tune long enough. It morphs. It becomes individual. And if its done INTENTIONALLY, it becomes your own interpretation.
Claiming ownership of a tune sounds like incredible hubris to me. An interpretation is one's own, but I don't agree that a player owns a tune, especially one that's public domain and has been played by many generations.
Milstein and Grumiaux were often suggested as ideal Bach interpreters in the Golden Age, but that didn't mean they owned Bach, and their greatness as interpreters came, not from sounding different, but from playing what sounded the most like what Bach would have wanted of a modern player. A good player of Old Time (as I see it) is one who plays a tune the way it ought to be played, not the one who sounds the most unique.
During a performance, I want to be thinking "That's how Soldier's Joy is supposed to sound," not "that's so-and-so's personal idea of the tune."
NYC + Nassau + Suffolk counties, population 11.5 million people.
19 Community Orchestras ( per non-verified Google search)
1 Community Orchestra per 605,263 people.
Population of Virginia 8.8 million people
8 Community Orchestras ( per non-verified Google search)
1 Community Orchestra per 1,100,000 people'
Neither of these are saying ' a LOT' to me.
"Making a tune your own" is merely a figure of speech, implying, to my understanding, that you have achieved a level of comfort with it such that it is "part of you", to use another figure of speech - and that your rendition is characteristic of your manner of playing generally. I don't take it to mean an actual claim of "ownership" - although there are no doubt a few players out there who feel that if a certain tune comes up in a certain jam or session, they should be deferred to, but ... that's beside the point.
Around 21:45
If i can't lilt it i can't play it.
quote:
Originally posted by wrench13NYC + Nassau + Suffolk counties, population 11.5 million people.
19 Community Orchestras ( per non-verified Google search)
1 Community Orchestra per 605,263 people.
Population of Virginia 8.8 million people
8 Community Orchestras ( per non-verified Google search)
1 Community Orchestra per 1,100,000 people'
Neither of these are saying ' a LOT' to me.
The overall population of an area isn't the measure of its playing population. While there may be more violinists in NY than in VA, there arent 11.5 million in those counties you used as examples. A community orchestra serves a geographical area regardless of its population density. So even if there are 50 million people packed into one spot, there are still only so many options for hosting an orchestra.
The largest school string program in the country is in Northern Virginia. There are numerous orchestras (almost certainly more than eight for the whole state), but not based solely on overall population. By that logic the tiny city of Bedford has a lot more orchestra per person than either NoVA or NY, but that doesn't make much sense as a way to consider it.
The fact that there are both community AND professional orchestras in many areas shows that there is a lot of interest. In addition to the community orchestras there are also chamber associations, workshops, camps, and concert series. There are more groups where there are more players.
Around 21:45
If i can't lilt it i can't play it.
Same with scat singing and Swing... Complete freedom. How else yuo going to do it?
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 08/10/2026 14:31:24
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddleAround 21:45
If i can't lilt it i can't play it.
Same with scat singing and Swing... Complete freedom. How else yuo going to do it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb3notEp4yU
To lilt, swing, or scat well, you have to know the vernacular. If you just make things up without context it doesn't work. There's only a sense of freedom if it follows a carefully planned pattern. Otherwise it's just gibberish.
quote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddleAround 21:45
If i can't lilt it i can't play it.
Same with scat singing and Swing... Complete freedom. How else yuo going to do it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb3notEp4yU
To lilt, swing, or scat well, you have to know the vernacular. If you just make things up without context it doesn't work. There's only a sense of freedom if it follows a carefully planned pattern. Otherwise it's just gibberish.
Well Rich That comes from listening and Lilting or Scatting along not from some book or teacher.
i wouldn't think there are any pedagogic teachers on either lilting or scatting.
if there are it is someone who has got the wrong end of the stick. It follows no pattern apart from your own personal interpretations. usually invented on the spot. (maybe practiced with another lilter?) In fact those two lilters on the RTE link specifically said, they do not write anything down it would be a disaster! And the context is provided by the tune it's self.
quote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddlequote:
Originally posted by The Violin Beautifulquote:
Originally posted by pete_fiddleAround 21:45
If i can't lilt it i can't play it.
Same with scat singing and Swing... Complete freedom. How else yuo going to do it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb3notEp4yU
To lilt, swing, or scat well, you have to know the vernacular. If you just make things up without context it doesn't work. There's only a sense of freedom if it follows a carefully planned pattern. Otherwise it's just gibberish.
Well Rich That comes from listening and Lilting or Scatting along not from some book or teacher.
i wouldn't think there are any pedagogic teachers on either lilting or scatting.
if there are it is someone who has got the wrong end of the stick. It follows no pattern apart from your own personal interpretations. usually invented on the spot. (maybe practiced with another lilter?) In fact those two lilters on the RTE link specifically said, they do not write anything down it would be a disaster! And the context is provided by the tune it's self.
Whether it's learned through a book or from another player, that type of ornamentation or performance is learned. While it's often (not always) improvised, the improvisation only happens AFTER learning how to do it, following instructions. According to your last comment, the music itself also dictates how the lilting/scat/ swing is done, so in that case, its performance is further dictated by the mechanics of the tune (I'd suggest this is the essence of interpretation). So while it sounds like an act of creation to the listener who isn't aware of what happens in the background, the performance actually represents the culmination of influences and learning that takes place over time. The good player is just able to establish an illusion of total freedom for the audience. That illusion masks the countless hours of rigid practice and learning that go into sounding natural. It's not an act of creation but rather one of carefully cultivated imitation and absorption of other ideas.
A player who is well-versed in multiple genres will often be considered to be able to play freely because he can easily switch to multiple styles. But that apparent freedom only exists if he has learned the rules that govern the different genres well enough that audiences recognize them as distinct playing styles as he plays them. If he were truly playing something entirely personal, it would be unintelligible and no one would like it. People tend to like what they're familiar with the most. Yes, people are sometimes excited by unfamiliar genres, but typically through a medium that allows them to make sense of each "new" one.
" There's only a sense of freedom if it follows a carefully planned pattern"
On the contrary, I would say the sense freedom in lilting (or fiddling or singing or whatever folk music you're talking about) derives from NOT following a carefully planned pattern. Any MIDI program can do that!
If you are technically sound, know the idioms of your style inside & out, have a good sense of rhythm, and know the bones of the tune, you are then totally free work it out as you go, with as much or a little variation in ornaments, occasional note inversions, etc., as you like. Here I'm referring to a solo or 'small' session situation where cross-communication is possible-- in a large session you may just be submerging yourself in the swarm of notes around you, not tinkering at all with the tune. Anyway, in my humble opinion that's what every folk musician should be striving towards -- I certainly am (though not there yet!!).
Having to quote myself here (Verbatim ) from an earlier post but....
"Ear training, Theory and Technique, (Not necessarily Classical), will serve any player well."
But you can get by perfectly well without , Like learning "Do Re Mi" and calling it "Dom Da Dee" or being able to imitate bird calls etc. you just teach yourself how to do it you don't need formal training.
Iv'e said it before, but i learned to play 5 tunes from memory when i was around 7 years old, on my fathers harmonica, On a single Sunday when i was around 7 years old. Because he said he would bye me one of my own when i knew 5 tunes ... What a relief ...Have you ever played someone else's harmonica ...Lol
in fact, some of the most annoyingly good players i know, wouldn't give a fig for any qualifications. And actively shun any attempts to instruct them in any way at all.
Edited by - pete_fiddle on 08/11/2026 12:04:19
quote:
Originally posted by JonD" There's only a sense of freedom if it follows a carefully planned pattern"
On the contrary, I would say the sense freedom in lilting (or fiddling or singing or whatever folk music you're talking about) derives from NOT following a carefully planned pattern. Any MIDI program can do that!
If you are technically sound, know the idioms of your style inside & out, have a good sense of rhythm, and know the bones of the tune, you are then totally free work it out as you go, with as much or a little variation in ornaments, occasional note inversions, etc., as you like. Here I'm referring to a solo or 'small' session situation where cross-communication is possible-- in a large session you may just be submerging yourself in the swarm of notes around you, not tinkering at all with the tune. Anyway, in my humble opinion that's what every folk musician should be striving towards -- I certainly am (though not there yet!!).
You're in agreement with me, actually. The player has to be familiar with the idiom first. Then there comes a sense of freedom. Tinkering with the tunes isn't good because it's a distraction and does a disservice to the crux of the tune. Bad players get in the way of the tune constantly, good ones bring it out properly.
Crux, Good, Bad....All subjective and contextual.
There is no Conductor in fiddling. There is a leader, but by joining in you agree that you enjoy their version, and will do you utmost to fit their interpretation.. Or just sit and listen and get familiar with it.... Hmm...Tinkering or harmonising / accentuating the rhythm?... Subjective also IMO
Every attempt to suggest that playing freely is a critical part of fiddling completely contradicts itself and falls apart with the slightest bit of examination. You can change terminology (don’t call a leader a conductor!) and bring in endless examples of fiddlers who are perceived as playing freely, but every one proves the exact opposite. Every comment about playing the music just reinforces that there are standards and rules that players are expected to follow, even in forms of music that appear more interpretive. Nothing is really entirely made up—it’s just an assembly of different ideas. You might use a different sound or cluster of vowels and consonants to do a scat solo than another performer, but that doesn’t make the performance actually creative; it’s still following the patterns set up by the music itself and the acquired understanding of improvisation taught by others.
Whether one has a formal teacher or not, every player learns from another source. Fiddlers don’t live on islands that have no contact with the rest of the world and they don’t discover the violin without context. They are all influenced by what came before, often from listening to others. Learning to play is then an act of imitation that’s even more direct than trying to learn by reading a book to deduce how it should be done.
“Playing freely” is really just a vacuous phrase that is bandied about to imply that a player is on some more artistic level that’s above the mundane existence of the average musician. This is how fiddlers justify some of their heroes: a fiddler who can’t play in tune or draw a smooth bow stroke to save his life is elevated to the heavens because of a mistaken notion that the playing is creative and free and unhindered by the all-too-human mundanity of “dot-reading.”
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