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Tennessee Tom - Posted - 01/23/2009: 06:46:43
Say I'm using only an A440 fork with NO electronics (i.e., the old fashioned way). I don't have too much trouble getting the fiddle in tune with itself, but the hardest part is getting that A string to perfectly match the fork. Seems it will sound OK to my ears for a slightly wider range on the fine-tuners than I would like.
What are the methods the "old-timers" used to get a perfect match of the A string to the A440 fork?
Please advise,
Tom
Edited by - Tennessee Tom on 01/23/2009 06:49:01
M-D - Posted - 01/23/2009: 06:54:56
Put the fork on the instrument's top. Pluck/bow the A-string. Match the vibes. 
http://www.expertvillage.com/video/...ningfork.htm
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M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you''ve got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
Edited by - M-D on 01/23/2009 06:55:55
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 01/23/2009: 07:15:05
Thanks, M-D. That's what I sometimes do, or putting the fork on the back is often a bit louder. Problem is it doesn't last very long. Another method I use is to put the ball end of the fork up against my ear. It will ring loud and clear for a long time that way. Still, getting it just right is a bit tricky for me.
Cheers,
Tom
wooliver - Posted - 01/23/2009: 07:33:47
i know one old boy that holds the fork in his teeth. Don't know if you could at that point bow the fork as easily as the strings? But it seems like it might be possible.
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 01/23/2009: 07:42:52
quote:
Originally posted by wooliver
i know one old boy that holds the fork in his teeth.
Yikes!!! That reminds me of when I had a jaw harp as a kid. I don't know if that particular way is for me, but I like the "outside of the box" thinking.
Cheers,
Tom
TimK - Posted - 01/23/2009: 08:39:38
I do it the way MD describes. Place the fork near the bridge to get the loudest sound. I find that by taping the fork against my knee before placing it on the fiddle produces the longest sustain. You can then use your fine tuners to zero in on the frequency.
TImK
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mikey - Posted - 01/23/2009: 09:34:58
All honesty, a tuning fork takes a bit of practice to hear the beat frequencies. Anyone who regularly tunes their mandolin by ear can attest to this.
MIKEY
Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else
dsreiner - Posted - 01/23/2009: 09:51:54
Tom-
Since you're receptive to out of the box thinking, may I suggest this...
Tune the A string *without* the tuning fork, listening carefully to its tonality. When you think it's in tune, then check with the fork. Take the fork away and repeat the process until you converge on the exact A.
You might say that you don't have perfect pitch in all its generality, but this is a way of training your ear to a specific pitch that is important to a fiddler. I think you'll be surprised at how soon you'll be able to tune the A string without artificial aids (forks, tuners), just based on careful attention to tonality and this kind of training.
Best,
Dave
Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (next Nov 13-15, 2009)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band
TomGlos - Posted - 01/23/2009: 09:53:53
I tend to rest the bottom of the fork on top of the bridge to get the note. A piano tuner friend suggested the "hold it in your teeth" method (liability disclaimer!) but I put a bit of plastic tape around the "handle" before I tried that. Made it a lot less alarming!
Tom
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BanjoBrad - Posted - 01/23/2009: 12:13:41
I use the "between the teeth" method with my classical guitar. If you keep your tongue and lips clear and hold it firmly, there is only the sound in your head, no real feel of the fork. Don't bang the fork on anything hard to start it ringing, it can chip away parts and affect the actual tuning. I always bang it on my knee and then place it in my mouth.
I need to start using it on the fiddle.
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Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 01/23/2009: 17:18:32
The problem with matching the reference tone to a plucked string is that a string's pitch will always be higher when bowed. At least in my experience. It's okay to match the reference to a plucked string when playing solo, or when everybody you're playing with are doing the same, but I've found that in a group situation you almost always have to bow the strings to find the proper pitches. Unless you want true old time ensemble sound, of course...
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bsed - Posted - 01/23/2009: 17:36:08
quote:
Originally posted by TomGlos
I tend to rest the bottom of the fork on top of the bridge to get the note. A piano tuner friend suggested the "hold it in your teeth" method (liability disclaimer!) but I put a bit of plastic tape around the "handle" before I tried that. Made it a lot less alarming!
Tom
I do this too.
Tom--->There is really only one tone on/from your A-string that'll match the fork. If you're not able to decide where that adjustment begins and ends, then I'd say you need to train your ears a little more. There's no shame in that, there's nothing wrong with it! It takes time. You might consider using a variety of methods, like using a keyboard, a guitar string, or an electronic tuner. You might even be able to find a 440A tone on the Internet.
Just call me Dwight.
Tennessee Tom - Posted - 01/24/2009: 04:34:27
quote:
Originally posted by bsed
If you're not able to decide where that adjustment begins and ends, then I'd say you need to train your ears a little more. [...] You might consider using [...] an electronic tuner.
Thanks, Bsed. I do use an electronic tuner, but only when I'm done with the fork (to measure how well I did without the electronic
crutch). This whole thing is an exercise to train my ear. I actually do get a bit closer than I may have indicated. I just want to make sure I'm not missin' out on any other secret techniques. So far, the "teeth" thing seems akin to a "fingernails on a chalkboard" feeling, but I suppose a piece of electrical tape might make it less unpleasant!
Regards,
Tom
rastewart - Posted - 01/24/2009: 13:48:09
I also use an A440 tuning fork, whack it on my knee, put the ball against the body of the fiddle. I'll try the teeth method next time I tune, just to see how it works. Being as I am an old coot, tuning by ear was about all that was available when I was first learning music, and it's still what I'm comfortable with.
Dave, I'm intrigued by your idea of training your ear (your "ear memory"?) to learn that specific pitch. I might give that a try too.
~Rich
_____________________________________________
... in savage and impenetrable darkness with chaos and pandemonium before me, and the demon madness of that night-baying viol behind me.--H.P. Lovecraft
carlb - Posted - 01/24/2009: 15:07:51
Here's the comparison between an electonic tuner (i.e. tempered scale) and starting with a fork at 440 (justified scale).
........440 tuning fork........electronic tuner
G........196.6........................196
D.........293.3.......................293.7
A..........440........................ 440
E..........660.........................659.3
Some hears the difference, some don't.
Carl
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 01/24/2009: 19:49:01
quote:
Originally posted by rastewart
Dave, I'm intrigued by your idea of training your ear (your "ear memory"?) to learn that specific pitch. I might give that a try too.
Me too. Seems like a great idea. I usually do this when I change strings and have surprised myself with my ability to find that true A tone.
But how do you do this on an everyday basis? My fiddle rarely goes more than just a tad out of tune, and then it's usually all the strings together from the fiddle being warmer or cooler than when I last tuned it. I can get in the vicinity of "0" on my tuner by ear, between -20 and 20, but anywhere around there sounds pretty good. How do you develope the ability to hear those last degrees of pitch character? I guess the anwer is just to keep working at it, huh?
Also, G and D are harder for me than A and E.
dsreiner - Posted - 01/25/2009: 18:34:14
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo
quote:
Originally posted by rastewart
Dave, I'm intrigued by your idea of training your ear (your "ear memory"?) to learn that specific pitch. I might give that a try too.
Me too. Seems like a great idea. I usually do this when I change strings and have surprised myself with my ability to find that true A tone.
But how do you do this on an everyday basis? My fiddle rarely goes more than just a tad out of tune, and then it's usually all the strings together from the fiddle being warmer or cooler than when I last tuned it. I can get in the vicinity of "0" on my tuner by ear, between -20 and 20, but anywhere around there sounds pretty good. How do you develope the ability to hear those last degrees of pitch character? I guess the anwer is just to keep working at it, huh?
Also, G and D are harder for me than A and E.
Glad to hear a couple of fiddlers are trying this approach! Keep at it and you'll be surprised how quickly you'll be able to get the A really right on. An intermediate step may be to realize that you are consistently a little low or a little high on the A - then you can adjust and over time get locked into the right pitch.
For the other strings once the A is tuned, I suggest tuning D (to the A), G (to the D), E (to the A). Repeat as needed. I like tuning to perfect fifths rather than to a tuner for the other strings, since I do hear the difference carlb referred to above.
Best,
Dave
Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (next Nov 13-15, 2009)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band
transplant - Posted - 01/25/2009: 19:06:38
What all those guys said. I like to hold the fork in my teeth to leave both hands free for bowing and twiddling the tuner screw. Or the peg, but mostly I play steel strings lately.
I find that I don't usually just tune it and forget it, but after a tune or two I want to touch up one or two strings again. Then it's usually good for another while...
Disclaimer on the teeth-clenching method: it's worth while spending some time finding a spot where the end of the fork won't chip a tooth. Forks are cheap, new teeth aren't. A Wittner tuning fork has a sharp shoulder just above the ball end that could do a number on one of your bicuspids if yr not careful with it. SO be careful with it, OK?
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Henry George - Posted - 01/26/2009: 00:47:29
I have always used a tuning fork to tune my instruments. I used to bang it on my knee but it tends to hurt in my old age. Now I just bang it on the side of the case and hold the forky end close to my ear and then check the tuning before I get the fiddle out of the case.
Today I tried tuning *without* the fork and I swear I could still hear the acoustic beats so I made the fine adjustments and sure enough spot on when I checked with the tuning fork.
But, I'll still always have to do that finale check with the fork.
Blu - Posted - 01/26/2009: 07:26:45
I have been following Dave's recommendation to tune the A string without any extrinsic aid, and to then check the tuning. The results, although mixed, are already much better than I would have predicted.
I relied entirely on electronic tuners for decades when I played guitar. When I started to play fiddle three years ago, I had a terrible ear. To help train my ear, I learned to tune my fiddle from an "A" tuning fork. I am not great at it, but I am better than I had expected, and improving.
My impression is that ear training is a lifelong pursuit. I have made enough progress that I do believe that we can learn to recognize pitches just as we learn to recognize colors. Anything which helps us to hear better can help us to play better.
“Many a good crop has been lost foolin’ with a fiddle.” John Hartford
Fidla - Posted - 01/28/2009: 06:58:04
You can use a tuning fork for sure. I also use a guitar tuner to get the A, then tune in 5ths from there - first the E/A together, then the A/D, then the D/G
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FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/28/2009: 07:40:59
I think it helps to have some discipline about tuning. Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm tempted to cheap out when I'm tuning. eg, "Oh, it's close enough." Well ya know, if it's "close enough", it's not on the money, whether you're using a fork, an electronic, a string, or your ear. Detecting whether a string is in tune or not is an ongoing work in progress, seems to me. Takes some stick-to-it-ivity to get better and better.
The other thing that is impressing me lately is how everybody's tuner is somewhat different. Maybe those orchestras are on to something when everyone tunes to the first violin. :-)
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
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FiddlinCol - Posted - 04/18/2009: 10:48:58
Er.. sorry mate but the orchestra tunes to the oboe.
I always tune to a fork.
And I hit it as loud as I can on something solid like a piece of wood so it rings loud on the fiddle. Bow the A string steady at your normal pressure and you will hear quite clearly the oscillations between the fork and note.
When the beats stop , the note is in tune. The closer you get to being in tune, the slower the beats become. Until they stop.
I believe even if you cant tune a fiddle, you should try fork tuning everytime. Check it after with a tuner if you like but remember that tuning is ear training and there aint no frets on your fiddle. 
Col.
"A man thats got nothin to say is a liar!"....Ole Roadhog, Lester Moran.
"The Dude abides"....The Dude.
abinigia - Posted - 04/18/2009: 20:45:33
quote:
Originally posted by Tennessee Tom
quote:
Originally posted by bsed
If you're not able to decide where that adjustment begins and ends, then I'd say you need to train your ears a little more. [...] You might consider using [...] an electronic tuner.
Thanks, Bsed. I do use an electronic tuner, but only when I'm done with the fork (to measure how well I did without the electronic crutch).
I gave up relying on just my ear a long time ago, especially when playing with others. I encourage everybody to use a tuner so we can just get to playing. For me it's more important everybody is in tune than how they got there. I don't consider anything that works to be a crutch.
Brian Wood
http://briankwood.net/
fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/18/2009: 21:05:30
If I remember correctly, back in the olden days when we tuned before ee-leck-trickle tuning
contrapshuns were invented,
I hit the 440 forky thing on my knee, then against the back of my cheekbone near the temple.
You can pluck the string with your left thumb and tune the fine tuner with the left hand too while
you hold the fork against the cheekbone with the right.
OR I pressed the ball end of my 440 fork against the curve of the bridge foot.
Another thought: use the fork to tune your gee-tar perfectly, then use the gee-tar
to tune the fiddle since it will sustain longer.
Use a harmonic if you want to get closer to the A strings actual pitch.
You could set the gee-tar on a stand on a table next to your ear to do this, or hang it from one o' those hanger thingies.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
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mudbug - Posted - 04/19/2009: 17:30:02
Yeah, Pogo,
That's how I usta do it too. By putting the base of the ringing fork on the high cheekbone just in front of the ear canal, it would ring in your head.
But then, I would hold the stem of the fork in my right hand, between first and second fingers, so I could pluck w/ right and and tune w/ left.
Brought back memories, but then I remembered trying to tune at a gig, with people talking and sound of acoustic guitar being lost in a larger room.
Yes , learn to use a fork/train your ear, but don't ever loose your tuner, and a spare battery handy. Who needs to be frustrated before a gig? 
carroll - Posted - 04/20/2009: 15:11:13
Speaking of tuning in a loud room... in addition to holding the fork to your head, try holding the back of your fiddle to your ear. This actually works pretty well if you have gotten your ears trained. If a jam is underway, you can hear how you are relative to the jam tuning.
I always used a fork until I bought an amp and started playing with some *really* loud instruments (drums & electric guitar). The electronic tuner is great if you can plug it into your amp (my SWR has this feature). I never use the electronic tuner for acoustic playing, instead I show up having tuned to the fork, and if there is a discrepancy, I ask the guitar player for a Dm chord - that gives me a good reference, not sure why.
- Carroll
jehanna - Posted - 04/21/2009: 05:51:35
Just an after thought.
The person who taught me to tune my piano with forks was 100% deaf. Made me very aware that music is made by vibrating the air.
And no, It was not Beethoven, I am not quiet that old.
Squeak on down the road
http://www.sebabluegrass.org
FiddlPat - Posted - 06/18/2009: 15:40:00
As long as you're playing to the same pitch standard, it's always good manners to tune before you get to where you're playing. Sure can smooth things out.
PS I only say this from long hard maddening experience. There's always someone who won't be,,,,but the more that are, the easier life is.
Niel Gow''s epitaph:
Time and Gow are even now
Gow beat time and time beat Gow
Edited by - FiddlPat on 06/18/2009 15:54:17
krugwaffle - Posted - 06/18/2009: 21:39:16
Learning the fiddle has been an experience in ear training too. I'd been playing guitar for more than 40 years when I picked up my first fiddle so I was totally set in the equal temperament world. The first time I brought my fiddle up to tune and began experimenting with the perfect fifths between strings, I was changed forever.
I used the electronic tuner for finding the A-440 then tuned the other strings to chime in to it. One day, I picked up the fiddle and could actually tell the A was flat. I tweaked it in to what I thought was exact and found that I was very close to correct when I turned on the electronic tuner. Ever since then, I listen first, make my best guess and verify my accuracy with the electronic tuner.
I've found that my accuracy varies from day to day. The biggest predictor of accuracy is whether or not I've been listening to music before attempting to tune. An old tape or out of tune recording can throw me off a little.
I've found a reference tone that I can recall mentally to help me be a little more accurate. I'm also into astronomy and one of the companions of the casual astronomical observer is the shortwave receiver tuned to WWV. I close my eyes and try to recall the droning ...beee-beee-beee-beee... sound of the seconds going by as I watched the stars. Many hours I've spent soaking up the dew under the night sky listening to that guy, "At the tone, twelve hours, sixty-three minutes, coordinated universal time.....BEEP!..beee-beee-beee-beee...." It's not always 440Hz but it's an accurate tone that helps my ear to 'lock on' a little better.
Another memory reference is the old timey indian head test pattern on TV that used to use the 440Hz tone. It's from a long time ago but it's the main reason for my avatar.
coelhoe - Posted - 06/19/2009: 07:15:15
At home, playing for my own amusement, I don't much care what the reference is, but when I play with an ensemble, the electronic tuner is a requirement. Playing bluegrass mando for years in a restaurant environment, we found that the band tuning would creep up all night long as each of us (often without realizing it) tuned slightly sharp in order to hear our instrument against the ambient noise and the other instruments.
For years I carried one those little brass reed tuners, a kind of mini harmonica as a reference, or sometimes I used a real Marine Band Honer. Then I bought a circular-shaped choir teacher's pitch pipe so as to have a full chromatic reference. But the tonal quality of the reed vs. that of the vibrating string was just too different, and the pitches were often an octave apart, increasing the difficulty.
Like a lot of people who have played music most of their lives, my hearing is no longer what it should be, and I have recently added a dollop of tinnitus as well, so I am very, very thankful for electronic tuners.
While, as FiddlPat mentions, it is just good manners to arrive a at jam already in tune, many people live in areas where in the internal and external humidity is enough different that to take an instrument out of the house is to require re-tuning. Last night I had a rehearsal at a place about 1500 feet higher in elevation than my home and it was raining when I got there. Banjo, guitar and dobro (no fiddle for this show) all had to be retuned on arrival at the building, and had to be retuned again about an hour later after the rain stopped and the sun came out.
I love the line that the "Hot Rise" BG band used to use on stage: "We tune because we care."
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
Edited by - coelhoe on 06/19/2009 07:16:50
FiddlPat - Posted - 06/19/2009: 07:39:12
I love the quip,,,,,"Well, It was in tune when I bought it"
Niel Gow''s epitaph:
Time and Gow are even now
Gow beat time and time beat Gow
FiddlPat - Posted - 06/19/2009: 15:08:32
Why didn't I think of that??? You ought to be rich, Brad.
Niel Gow''s epitaph:
Time and Gow are even now
Gow beat time and time beat Gow
jehanna - Posted - 06/21/2009: 09:37:03
Ah yes Dennis the creeping sharps, i have often wondered why string instruments are so prone to this. I even keep a tuner on my bass bridge. Does not help much when the banjr is 65 cents sharp though. One good thing about fiddle, even as bad as I play it it holds tune amazing well. A real tuning nightmare is the dulcimer, an absolute witch to tune and they need it every time you move the thing.
Squeak on down the road
http://www.sebabluegrass.org
FiddlPat - Posted - 06/21/2009: 15:11:31
One of the reasons instruments with truss rods in the neck(banjo, guitar) can tend to go sharp is if there is too much tension on the rod.
Niel Gow''s epitaph:
Time and Gow are even now
Gow beat time and time beat Gow
FiddlPat - Posted - 06/22/2009: 07:19:41
I"m pretty sure that's what it is Jehanna. I noticed it with this archtop Ibanez electric jazz guitar I had,,,and it had a definite 'backbow.' It would creep and creep sharp, chronically, no matter how many times I would pull it back down. Was like a ghost in the machine, and I finally figured it had to be that.
Niel Gow''s epitaph:
Time and Gow are even now
Gow beat time and time beat Gow
