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fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/16/2016: 21:31:16
Lee asked this question in the Jammandments thread a while back, and I hesitated to answer it in the thread because it seemed way off topic.
Then Joel mentioned it AGAIN, and I decided it ought to get answered.
Round Peak is a North Carolina sub-genre of Old Time based on the playing of Tommy Jarrell and Fred Cockerham.
Other noted players were Kyle Creed and Benton Flippen.
Characteristics of Round Peak:
1. Tight rhythmic interaction between the fiddle and the clawhammer banjo. Guitar is more secondary.
2. Banjo is a fretless banjo, or at least a throbby sounding banjo played near the neck.
3. Banjo doesn't do full chords. No brushed "bump-ditty"! Drop thumb is used a lot, but in more of a rhythmic than melodic way. "Pocka-pocka" is how I think of it.
4. Tunes tend to be simpler and similar to classic banjo songs dating back to the minstrel era, and most of them have some words.
There is a repertoire of specific Round Peak tunes and versions... some common tune titles may actually be a specific Round Peak version, like June Apple.
5. Round Peak is a mountain and an unincorporated community about 10 miles to the west of Mt. Airy, where Tommy Jarrell lived. I think some of the other local North Carolinians involved in the genre lived there. That local involvement is one of the things that sets it apart. City pickers don't set the tone or style, although it's fairly popular among city pickers too.
Did I get that right?
(edit) 6. As I recall, Round Peak tends to use a bass player as part of the full band sound.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/18/2016 10:04:25
Tbird - Posted - 01/16/2016: 23:08:08
Pogo I think you hit on many of the traits that make up Round Peak but like so many styles of music it can be somewhat complicated to completely sum it up in a few sentences. I've got both of Brad Leftwich's books (Round Peak Style Clawhammer Banjo and Old Time Fiddle Round Peak Style) which do a pretty good job of giving a general picture of what makes up that style including most of the points you made but the best resource I found was a dissertation written by a fellow named James Randolph Ruchala called "Making Round Peak Music: History, Revitalization, and Community". This is as complete of a picture of Round Peak music as I have ever read. But even after reading it I don't know if I could definitively define Round Peak...kinda like when you try to tell someone what "Old Time" music is. You can make generalizations about it but a static definition is a little more difficult if not impossible.
Anyway, this dissertation is a must read for anyone interested in Round Peak music. I found it EXTREMELY interesting but be warned....it's over 500 pages long. I wish he had put it in book form because I would have gladly paid for one. Here's a link to the PDF file.
repository.library.brown.edu/s...mbed=true
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/17/2016: 03:44:37
Mike,
Thanks- very interesting article, I've read about a chapter and a half so far.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/17/2016: 08:00:48
That's what I've heard Round Peak...pretty much what Anj and Barn must've heard when they headed toward Mt. Pilot...lol...in real life its Pilot Mountain...passed it many times heading to Winston Salem to see family there. Anyway...yeah, mostly when I think of what I've heard Round Peak style is supposed to be I think more banjo than fiddle...to me, it seems anyway, it's the banjo that mainly differentiates the music from lots of other styles. The fiddle, played in a similar way, to me, would take in a different character if played with different types of clawhammer. IMHO, only.
DougD - Posted - 01/17/2016: 08:41:34
Another thread probably destined for trouble. I'd just say that to call Round Peak a "mountain" is a matter of perspective. Its about 2000 ft. - big deal!
Tommy Jarrell lived in the community of Toast, at least when I knew him.
I think "Round Peak" is just the style of music that was played at Floyd's barbershop.
Funny, I saw Howard McNear (who played "Floyd") in an episode of "Gunsmoke" the other day - it was very unsettling - wrong place, wrong time!
If you want to hear what this style sounded like when played by the best, listen to these CDs: amazon.com/Stay-All-Night-Tomm...y+jarrell
and: amazon.com/gp/product/B001IYSO...mp;sr=1-6
I know what you mean about the banjo sound, Michael, but I think it was changed and overemphasized by some younger players, to the point where I, at least, can't stand it.
Edited by - DougD on 01/17/2016 08:56:59
Astrang - Posted - 01/17/2016: 09:45:36
I guess it is a matter of perspective if you are looking at it thru your car window and comparing with what you have seen from a ski lift in Colorado, but if you are hoofing it to the top, it becomes a bigger deal and you come out with a better perspective.
DougD - Posted - 01/17/2016: 10:18:16
Well maybe, Randy, but I'm sitting at our house which is about 3500' looking at the surrounding snowy hills that are probably 4000' or so, and I can see where TN, VA, and NC meet on Pond Mountain, which is 5000 feet. I've hiked around all of this.
My point is just that Mt. Airy (as well as Galax) are in the Piedmont, in the foothills of the mountains. This is the land of furniture factories, tobacco companies and textile mills. Its much different than the Blue Ridge and Appalachians.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/17/2016: 11:35:44
But that is considered the Round Peak area, regardless of mountain size, isn't it? I thought even Winston-Salem was on the outskirts of that region, being in the same county...I don't know for a fact...most of Nirth Carolina has been through the car window, for me. And we stopped going at all for the past several years...I remember the mountains being pretty good-sized, myself...never been to Colorado or the Himalyan region, though...heck, I even think my back yard is a big mountain...try getting up and down the doggone thing in the ice and mud and see whatcha think...lol.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/17/2016: 12:05:09
I wouldn't say the banjo is MORE important than the fiddle in Round Peak, but I'd say it's co-equal, and it's very much about the interaction between the two, the tightness. It's not really a solo banjo sound in most cases. Part of this is because some of the greats in the style were both fiddlers and clawhammer banjo players, like Tommy Jarrell and Fred Cockerham.
I don't think of myself as a Round Peak fiddler, but there IS an influence. I had an opportunity a few years back to jam with someone who'd taken banjo lessons in Round Peak Style in the Bay Area, and was doing surprisingly well.
We weren't even playing Round Peak tunes, per se, but her banjo sound was super-easy to lock on to and groove with. And the throbby tone has always been something I've liked... I really don't like a bright middle-of-the-head bump-ditty sound at all... no accounting for taste, you know!
In contrast, a lot of non-Round Peak clawhammer players really emphasize the backbeat excessively, and I don't always find that easy to fiddle along with.
Headed for trouble??? My, what an optimist!!!
Yes, I know about Toast, I was there, but it basically amounts to a neighborhood of Mt. Airy.
Round Peak has been called a "mountain" by others. How high the "mountain" is has very little to do with the appeal of the music as far as I'm concerned. I think the key question rather than the height of the mountains or the presence of furniture factories is how traditional the culture is. And the impression I got when I was there was, yeah, compared to the Midwest where I grew up, it was a more intensely traditional culture.
I haven't read far, but in Ruchala's thesis, he compares Round Peak to a Kentucky region. He said that Roger Cooper said that 20 years earlier from the conversation, there were twenty local Kentucky fiddlers who could have been visited. Ruchala said there were still 13 good living fiddlers in the Round Peak area at the time of the conversation. That's NOT a huge amount, and certainly could have been part of a particular barbershop's clientele. But that's true of a lot of these traditions even in their heyday.... we're not talking about heavily populated areas.
It all gets down to whether you like the music or not.... if you like the music, a dozen or two fiddlers is significant, if you don't, well, it's why all the to-do about it?
I'm aware that some other regions are kind of resentful of all the attention to Round Peak... there are different factors in that, some of which I hope to learn more about by reading Ruchala's thesis.
It's pretty obvious to me that the fact that Surry County musicians showed up regularly at the Galax convention is part of it. Galax is relatively accessible from the Washington, DC area. The Galax style got a lot of attention back then, and any decent player who showed up there was likely to get on the radar of various folklorists and collectors.
Then there is that importance of the banjo in Round Peak... in some Old Time traditions, banjo isn't a factor at all, or is just a somewhat disrespected side tradition. Since there were a lot of banjo pickers around after the folk boom, a tradition that held banjo in high esteem was likely to get the attention of some of them, and thus provide more people to focus on the tradition.... like Ruchala himself, who is a banjo picker, not a fiddler.
But not all banjo pickers "get" Round Peak by any means, either.... I'm somewhat active over on the Banjo Hangout, and that's pretty obvious!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/17/2016 12:16:08
carlb - Posted - 01/17/2016: 18:19:52
A while I was curious where the present day "Round Peak" players got their style from. So I went to "Clawhammer Banjo, volume 1). What I discovered was that, probably, George Stoneman sounds more like the present day "Round Peak" players. The wonderful styles of Wade Ward, Kyle Creed and Fred Cockerham are very different from George Stoneman.
Astrang - Posted - 01/17/2016: 19:39:28
I guess it goes without saying that a downbow approach would be a main characteristic of the Round Peak sound, is that correct?
Up bowing has always been more natural to me but have also dabbled along with down bowing. The last couple of months I have been trying to take down bowing more seriously and have really been spending some time with it. I find that I use different muscles in my fingers and thumb, wrist, forearm and even my shoulder in down bowing as opposed to up bowing. Has anyone else ever experienced this or is this my own little deformity?
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/17/2016: 20:13:31
I'm probably not the one qualified to answer, but I think it's only natural that up bowing and down bowing will use muscles differently and feel different, besides sound different. Thinking about North Carolina again, Surry Co., our family moved back to TN so we no longer make trips to Winston-Salem, but I still have a Moravian Star...anybody know about those? Mines getting kinda battered-looking...might need to take a trip back over there to pick up a new one!
Astrang - Posted - 01/17/2016: 20:55:56
Thanks Peggy. For others, maybe I should add that I’m not referring to up as opposed to down, I’m referring to up and down with the bow in the up bowing method as opposed to up and down with the bow in the down bowing method. For me, lots of different things happening there between the two methods.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/17/2016: 21:05:07
I wouldn't be surprised if upbowing used slightly different muscles that downbowing, especially in Old Time.
When playing Old Time, I'm a down bower. But when I play Irish tunes, I play more "anywhichway", which incorporates some upbowed passages, and I find I use different muscles when I do that. I think it comes from the fact that with downbowing, you relax and let gravity do it's thing. With upbowing or anywhichway, you have to fight gravity a bit to KEEP IT from doing it's thing.
Tommy Jarrell was definitely a downbower. Also, the "pocka-pocka" groove of the Round Peak style clawhammer banjo fits perfectly with downbowed sawstroke or bowings that put the accents where downbow sawstroke would put them.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/18/2016: 04:39:39
There is that up bow guy in California who does mostly upbowed Georgia Shuffles and has his own instructional videos on YouTube. Now I can't think if his name...Chris something, isn't it? He's a good fiddler. Anyway, sorry I can't think of his name right now, but if you could find his youtubes, Randy, you might like seeing how he manages his up bowing to get a great old time sound. I suppose I think of him as a true pattern bower, because he bases things from a Georgia Shuffle and goes from there. I think if myself as a pattern bower too, because I base my bowing from Nashville Shuffle, mainly, but let it wander off on its own at various points...I've often felt I was on the fence about to bow pattern, shuffles, licks, or the famous "anywhichway,"... But after trying to get in touch with my inner fiddler, lol, so to speak, for these past seven years, I do believe that for some of us, if I can include myself among fiddlers ( being barely able to be included among them, if at all), I think pattern bowing, as I've called it here, comes naturally to some...pre-meditated shuffles and licks comes naturally to some, and trusting to go with it anywhichway comes naturally to some as well. Up bowing, I believe, too, comes naturally to some, even though down bowing seems to be as common as being right handed...I've heard some good up bowers too. The hard part is figuring out what we are naturally inclined to do and focus in on that...in my opinion, which might be wrong. I think the California Georgia shuffle up bowers last name was something like Carnes, or Carney...something like that.
GreasyCreek - Posted - 01/18/2016: 06:59:33
Pogo and other posters did a good job in this thread of capturing some keys to Round Peak as a style in OT music. The dissertation looks interesting, thanks for that link. I just want to correct the view that Pilot Mt = Round Peak. Pilot Mountain is the dramatic monadnock you see rising right beside U.S. 52/Interstate 74 between Winston-Salem and Mt. Airy. It was an important landmark for travelers down the Great Wagon Road headed to Salem (to tie in the Moravian Star theme) as early as the 1750s, and doubtless was important long before that for Native Americans. Round Peak itself is about 20 miles northwest of Pilot Mt -- if you take highway 89 out of Mt. Airy (through Toast, where TJ lived) towards Lowgap, and on up to Galax, Round Peak is north, between you and the Blue Ridge escarpment. Round Peak is much less dramatic in the landscape than Pilot Mt, which to native Winston-Salem residents like me was kinda like our Matterhorn. OK, enough geography, back to that fiddle...
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/18/2016: 07:50:22
Thanks for that native North Carolinian geography lesson. Pilot Mountain was always a wagon train landmark for us too...lol...signaling we were finally getting close to W-S. The family had lived there for years, and we wer in ky...too far for us to go. But eventually we started heading out to visit for Christmas, etc., and I still remember the first time we went...we were looking for their house and decided we could just look for the house with one of those Moravian Stars in the window...lol...didn't take long until we noticed every house, every building, just about, had a Moravian Star ( never saw one of them in KY), and we reverted back to looking for the number, real quick! We always took a trip to old Salem and started getting our own stash of the stars...since, family has moved away and our stars are looking a little dilapidated by now, although I've still got the big one hanging in the window. Anyway, I miss the mild weather on the Christmases and Thanksgivings we went...took off the mittens and coats and went around in flannel shirts! The fiddling right there in Winston-Salem sounded good to me! But it is amazing, really, how, at least in ky and I'm figuring everywhere, the old time particulars might have pretty good variations just from one mountain, or in ky, one holler, to another. Shows how people were disconnected by geography as they developed their tunes and styles. Sometimes I think isolation has its good points, however, here in the part if ky I'm in now, the old time fiddling isolation is maddening...thank goodness the Internet is there!
Astrang - Posted - 01/18/2016: 08:33:25
Peggy thanks for helping and pointing out that video. I can throw in a Georgia shuffle occasionally in my playing when it fits, but it has to be with the slurs on the upbow. I’ve never tried it on a downbow. Don’t know if that is possible for me, I get in such a rut sometimes it’s hard for me to change but I will spend some time with it and see.
Would others agree that a downbow Georgia shuffle pattern is a part of the Round Peak Sound?
As far as the terrain, you guys are talking to a man that has trouble getting up the front steps, 2000 feet is a mountain!
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/18/2016: 08:47:04
I don't think Georgia Shuffle is part of the round peak style, but I just threw that in as an example of somebody who not only plays upbow, but teaches it too, and gets a very good old time sound playing it. I'm not even sure if the taters of Nashville Shuffle would be part if the RP sound...I'm sure somebody else here could tell us. I'm thinking that people who get into one shuffle pattern and get comfortable there are probably not so much RP as just " other" old time...but like I said, I'm sure there are others who know better than I do. I know there used to be good fiddlers who I don't believe did patterns so much, but upbowed, in Eastern Ky...but don't know their names and I'm sure they are long gone by now. You could think of them as upsidedown from RP Fiddler's, sort of, I guess. Seems like to me those are big mountains in North Carolina...I agree with you on that! Seems the RP players have rugged licks they play...more in just hills ( we call mountains in ky, but compared with Virginia and N Carolins, ours are mostly hills except in a few spots, probably) maybe they get into more regularity, like hilliness in the geography, with taters shuffling. Then to me, Georgia Shuffle has a smooth, rolling hill sound, but I could be entirely out on a very crooked limb with all these musings...lol...I gave never studied it like so many others here. David Bragger has tons of free youtubes breaking down the licks and shuffles of many old time fiddlers. I learned a lot watching his videos, but I can't play that way...my bowing has to center on those taters, and just jump in and out if the taters here and there. After being here and reading so many bowing discussions, I did try to get a feel for some of the licks/ shuffles, many that came straight from RP Fiddler's ( synco shuffle, etc.), and I think I'm finally getting to the point where I can take out a set of taters and throw in a synco shuffle in the fly, here and there, just to dress it up some, without sounding premeditated or contrived.
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 01/18/2016 08:56:15
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/18/2016: 08:58:49
Sorry for all the typos...my iPad changes things and I did try to edit, but either I missed some of them, or the sneaky thing went and changed them back on me!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2016: 09:07:04
Funny thing... I've actually met Chris Carney! My wife and I were on a road trip, oh about 8 or so years ago. We stopped in some town for a rest break, there was a music store, and I HAD to check it out. The only fiddle for sale was pretty pathetic, but the young clerk rousted the fiddle teacher out of his teaching room to talk to me about it... and it was Chris! We had a good conversation, which confirmed to me that upbowing IS indeed quite different from downbowing... Chris was totally aware of that.
I'm not aware of Georgia Shuffle being part of Tommy Jarrell's playing. He used another technique to get the same effect though occasion, I think on the low part of Backstep Cindy or something like that.... the lick had no single strokes, it was all slurs- but he'd do the direction change on the backbeat, which would still give it a bit of that backbeat flavor that Georgia Shuffle often has.
As far as other Round Peak players, I have no idea if they use Georgia or not.
Putting the slur on the upbow in Georgia, oddly enough, can make it fit well with down bowing.... you can transition easily to and from down-up sawstroke with it. But it starts and ends on upbows, which makes it seem like it DOESN'T fit with down bowing... but it actually does, as a turn around lick.
If I get started on an upbow, which is rare, but happens, if I just put a single down stroke on that first backbeat, I'm then reoriented for down bowing again.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/18/2016 09:16:25
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/18/2016: 09:16:32
Pogo...just curious...do you think a Nashville Shuffle addict could also be an upbower? I know I'm a NS addict, an I'm a down bower by nature, but I actually do sometimes feel turned around even just doing NS...so...that makes me wonder if there's somebody in the alternate fiddling universe Nashville Shuffling in the same way I'd feel turned around when it seems like there shouldn't be such a feeling! Of course, I might be causing a topic drift...oops, I'm very bad about that!
Edited by - groundhogpeggy on 01/18/2016 09:20:05
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2016: 09:39:55
quote:
Originally posted by groundhogpeggy
Pogo...just curious...do you think a Nashville Shuffle addict could also be an upbower? I know I'm a NS addict, an I'm a down bower by nature, but I actually do sometimes feel turned around even just doing NS...so...that makes me wonder if there's somebody in the alternate fiddling universe Nashville Shuffling in the same way I'd feel turned around when it seems like there shouldn't be such a feeling! Of course, I might be causing a topic drift...oops, I'm very bad about that!
Nashville is a natural "anywhichway" lick, since it bows the same rhythm in both directions. If done with the full measure sequence, and started on a downbow, it fits with downbowing. If done with the full measure sequence, and started on an upbow, it fits with upbowing. If a fiddler likes to throw in a half measure of Nashville that's not paired with something with an odd number of strokes like the normal end of Nashville, it will turn you around... sawstroke being a prime candidate for that.
So Nashville is a bowing lick that anybody can use, but how you use it tends to help decide which bowing approach "camp" you're in.
Topic drift? The OP would have to bust you on that, and I'm the OP.... do you you think I'm gonna bust you on that?
However.... on topic save- Tommy Jarrell DID use Nashville, and started it on a downbow, but I believe from what I've seen he did the full measure sequence that DIDN'T get him turned around, so he continued downbowing.
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/18/2016 09:43:30
Astrang - Posted - 01/18/2016: 09:41:10
Thanks Peggy and Pogo for the time you are taking. I’m just trying to make some improvements on my playing. My situation is kind of like this; Yep, I can play a tune on the fiddle, now if I could just get the sound too come out???
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2016: 10:02:37
quote:
Originally posted by Astrang
Thanks Peggy and Pogo for the time you are taking. I’m just trying to make some improvements on my playing. My situation is kind of like this; Yep, I can play a tune on the fiddle, now if I could just get the sound too come out???
"Get the sound to come out"? Do you mean it's too quiet?
That MIGHT be a symptom of up bowing. In my experience, upbowers have a hard time getting as much volume as a down bower, all other things being equal (which they seldom are, though!)
A down bow accent naturally starts with a sharp scritch, then at least on the D, A, and E strings you are pulling the bow AWAY from the strings so you get fairly good tone. With an upbow, to accent it you have to PUSH harder, but on the D, A, and E strings, that runs the risk of pushing the bow INTO the string in a way that causes it to distort and sound nasty all the way through. So many upbowers use a light touch to avoid that, and it gives them shorter bow strokes, less bow velocity, and less volume. Some upbower don't try to avoid that ENOUGH, and they get consistently nasty tone because of it.
In one band I was in, the other fiddler was an upbower, used very short strokes, and could never get much volume. I always drowned him out, without half trying!
One other advantage of downbowing.... because you are getting a gravity assist on most of the accents, you can back off on the amount of energy you use to bow. This might have been part of why Tommy Jarrell could play so well so late in life... he looked like he was playing hard with those long strokes, but I think he was using less energy than it looked like, because he was downbowing.
I also got to see Missouri style fiddler Earl Collins just before he died. He was obviously very weak, but could still play well, and it was apparent that he had worked out a way of playing, including down bowing, that allowed him to play while exerting very little energy.
Part of that is that with the bow on the down strokes coming AWAY from the strings, downbowers don't have to try to work to suspend the bow to keep from bearing down too hard. When I play Irish tunes, and use anywhichway, I have to work to suspend the bow to keep from bearing down too hard, and the extra effort of doing that tires me out more quickly.
Astrang - Posted - 01/18/2016: 11:09:43
I guess what I should have said was;
Yep, I can play a tune on the fiddle, now, if I could just get the music of it too come out???
However, I do notice an increase in volume just as you say. In fact each thing you mention above I am finding to be right on target in my case. It’s going to take me a while to process it all. Hadn’t realized there was so much difference between up and down and down an up.
pdfarrell - Posted - 01/18/2016: 11:09:48
Is the fiddler always cross tuned?
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/18/2016: 11:34:05
Randy, I know the feeling! My fiddling in my head doesn't quite come out of the instrument as I'm thinking, if that makes sense. It's a long road to travel, playing the fiddle is. Nashville Shuffle seems like the easiest way to start getting a grip on it to me, but I'm sure many others would disagree. There are a few youtubes out there where different people talk about or show their bowing...plus, once the conversation gets going here at fho, it can't get intense, but for me it's been very educational. Once people figure out their bowing, they defend it pretty much...lol. Can't blame anybody for that because it's so hard to figure it all out. Once you get it, you're like...this is RIGHT!
Patrick...I think cross tuning works great for the style but I think it's not universal...but somebody else probably knows better.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2016: 11:50:45
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
Is the fiddler always cross tuned?
Don't know if it's universal, but it is exceeding common. Jarrell and Cockerham seldom if ever played in standard tuning.
If they played in D, they usually played in "high bass" tuning- ADAE.
That just reminded me of something else...
Jarrell and Cockerham never played in G or C that I know of. And I wonder if that's also common or universal in Round Peak.
I wonder.... if the fact that a fretless banjo is preferred doesn't have something to do with that.... you can't just capo up from C to D or from G to A, or uncapo for going down in pitch.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2016: 11:57:07
quote:
Originally posted by Astrang
I guess what I should have said was;
Yep, I can play a tune on the fiddle, now, if I could just get the music of it too come out???
However, I do notice an increase in volume just as you say. In fact each thing you mention above I am finding to be right on target in my case. It’s going to take me a while to process it all. Hadn’t realized there was so much difference between up and down and down an up.
Well, getting the music to come out...
that has to do with establishing enough control and getting things operating intuitively enough that you can stop thinking, and allow the subconscious to control the motions that express emotion. Any technique, whether left hand or right, fingering or bowing, has to become automatic. Thinking about it gets in the way of the emotional, musical qualities.
The bad news is that switching to downbowing MIGHT slow that process down.... you'll have to reprogram your subconscious, and that takes time.
Tbird - Posted - 01/18/2016: 12:43:26
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
Is the fiddler always cross tuned?
Here's a break down of the various tunings from Brad Leftwich's book "Old a Time Fiddle Round Peak Style." The book showcases 83 Tommy Jarrell tunes which made up the bulk of his repertoire.
AEAE (key of A) 38 tunes
ADAE (key of D) 31 tunes
GDAE (various keys EAG) 7 tunes
DDAD (key of D) 3 tunes
ADAD (key of D) 2 tunes
AEAC# (key of A) 1 tune
GDAD (key of G) 1 tune
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2016: 13:31:02
quote:
Originally posted by Tbird
quote:
Originally posted by pdfarrell
Is the fiddler always cross tuned?
Here's a break down of the various tunings from Brad Leftwich's book "Old a Time Fiddle Round Peak Style." The book showcases 83 Tommy Jarrell tunes which made up the bulk of his repertoire.
AEAE (key of A) 38 tunes
ADAE (key of D) 31 tunes
GDAE (various keys EAG) 7 tunes
DDAD (key of D) 3 tunes
ADAD (key of D) 2 tunes
AEAC# (key of A) 1 tune
GDAD (key of G) 1 tune
Thanks for the correction!
GreasyCreek - Posted - 01/18/2016: 14:10:40
My short-timer but geographically relevant experience--Greasy Creek is just "up the mountain" from Round Peak--is that the OT players in the area who are closest to what you might still call traditional local players play for dances almost exclusively in D and/or A, so that's how many jams in the area go. Most often cross tuned (high bass and AEAE), though that's by no means universal. I don't think Benton Flippen cross tuned.
These days, though, there are so many players in that area who've moved in from all over, or who just travel through and stay awhile and contribute tunes, or that did grow up there but have since played all over the world, or kept eyeballs on Youtube, that you almost have to distinguish whether you mean "Round Peak as an historic musical period in the past" or "Round Peak as a geographic area in the present." The Ruchala dissertation is looking like an good window into both senses of the phrase.
Is the fretless banjo the source of this restricted key thing? It's an interesting idea, but I think there are other factors. For one, there is a strong sense still in that area that fifty or so traditional tunes are all one needs for repertoire, and after all, they are considered by some to be a form of local cultural capitol. Outside of the area, like on this site and BHO, many people disparage some of these tunes as old chestnuts. But on the view I have heard expressed explicitly around Surry County, why would you waste time playing a bunch of new tunes? What's wrong with the old ones? Just play them better and faster. People will dance, which is the be-all and end-all for a lot of Round Peak musicians. that is one of the great things about that region: on weekends and even weeknights (in the warmer months) people still go out to dance to oldtime music, and they expect strongly rhythmic, fast and familiar tunes to get everyone on the dance floor going crazy.
When the musicians go out on their porches to play for their own pleasure, though, they'll experiment with new tunes and tunings, just like fiddlers and banjoists anywhere. By the way, I've gotten tips from a few of those folks, but I have never heard them refer to bowing patterns, and I am very doubtful their pride in the local music tradition would let them acknowledge that they were using something named for Nashville, or for that matter, Georgia.
they would more likely say they were just trying to sound like Tommy, or Fred, or whomever.
Tbird - Posted - 01/18/2016: 15:13:13
quote:
Originally posted by GreasyCreek
These days, though, there are so many players in that area who've moved in from all over, or who just travel through and stay awhile and contribute tunes, or that did grow up there but have since played all over the world, or kept eyeballs on Youtube, that you almost have to distinguish whether you mean "Round Peak as an historic musical period in the past" or "Round Peak as a geographic area in the present." The Ruchala dissertation is looking like an good window into both senses of the phrase.
That's a good point and one reason why it's hard to define Round Peak music. You have to remember that the main reason this was a very localized style in the beginning was directly due to the lay of the land. There weren't any paved roads so to speak and hardly anyone owned a car. The main means of travel was by horse, mule, or walking. So while a 2000ft mountain or hill may not seem like much of an obstacle today it was back then. Galax wasn't very far from the Round Peak area but it was on the backside of the mountain and not many folks wanted to hoof it up that hill to play music with the guys in Galax.
You would have thought that the music from those two areas would have been pretty much the same style but that wasn't the case. So you ended up with a dozen or so local players that rarely ventured far from home and literally defined the Round Peak style "back then." Of course as time passed the hills and mountains became less and less of a factor, more people had cars, and paved roads became common place. The pot got stirred with players from different parts of the country so what you've wound up with today is different (but not radically imo) than it was a hundred years ago. But that's true about any form of music. Look at bluegrass from the Monroe era compared to today.
Change isn't always good but it's not always bad either. I'm thankful for the players today that adhere to the music the way it was played a hundred years ago but I'm also thankful for the players that try new ideas based on the music of the past. I mean....that's how Round Peak style got started in the first place. They took music from their past and played it their way.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/18/2016: 15:34:49
One if the best discussions on this site, right here!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2016: 17:43:17
quote:
Originally posted by Tbird
quote:
Originally posted by GreasyCreek
These days, though, there are so many players in that area who've moved in from all over, or who just travel through and stay awhile and contribute tunes, or that did grow up there but have since played all over the world, or kept eyeballs on Youtube, that you almost have to distinguish whether you mean "Round Peak as an historic musical period in the past" or "Round Peak as a geographic area in the present." The Ruchala dissertation is looking like an good window into both senses of the phrase.
That's a good point and one reason why it's hard to define Round Peak music. You have to remember that the main reason this was a very localized style in the beginning was directly due to the lay of the land. There weren't any paved roads so to speak and hardly anyone owned a car. The main means of travel was by horse, mule, or walking. So while a 2000ft mountain or hill may not seem like much of an obstacle today it was back then. Galax wasn't very far from the Round Peak area but it was on the backside of the mountain and not many folks wanted to hoof it up that hill to play music with the guys in Galax.
You would have thought that the music from those two areas would have been pretty much the same style but that wasn't the case. So you ended up with a dozen or so local players that rarely ventured far from home and literally defined the Round Peak style "back then." Of course as time passed the hills and mountains became less and less of a factor, more people had cars, and paved roads became common place. The pot got stirred with players from different parts of the country...
I believe that's a really good nutshell description of how isolation affected all the mountain Old Time styles, Appalachian AND Ozarkian.
Mountains, rivers, and especially high ridges really put a damper on communication and travel between places that otherwise weren't that far apart.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/18/2016: 17:57:37
quote:
Originally posted by GreasyCreek
By the way, I've gotten tips from a few of those folks, but I have never heard them refer to bowing patterns, and I am very doubtful their pride in the local music tradition would let them acknowledge that they were using something named for Nashville, or for that matter, Georgia. they would more likely say they were just trying to sound like Tommy, or Fred, or whomever.
I have no doubt that that's true. I have noticed that most of the traditional bowing terms (Kentucky Bow, Georgia Bow, Rag Bow) are either regional or refer to an alien style (at one time fiddle rags must have been pretty much African American property) and so the terms imply something alien, something that initially only strangers to the area would have used, and that would have been slowly adopted by the more progressive members of the music community.
I hadn't thought about how local pride would factor into that resistance, but it must have.
I wonder if Leftwich's use of terms like "Tommy's Lick", "Melvin's Lick" isn't based on a more local awareness of bowing, as you said
"they would more likely say they were just trying to sound like Tommy, or Fred, or whomever."
However, just as we often use music notation and recordings of various kinds to learn tunes, and the oldtimers mostly didn't, I think even bowing terminology of recent vintage may have some usefulness, but that usefulness varies from person to person, just like music notation.
We all have points where we leave off being "authentic" and are willing to use modern tools, if it seems to help us play the music.
Astrang - Posted - 01/19/2016: 10:44:45
I am enjoying the Ruchala article, thanks for posting it.
Back in the 1840’s my g-great grandpa and two of his brothers left home from Guilford County North Carolina and came here to Arkansas where I live now. That area is probably Rockingham County now, not sure how the lines fell in the 1840’s. Rockingham County is east of Surry County with the county of Stokes in between. Grandpaw’s mom was from the next county over of Caswell. Anyway, they had fiddles. Within reason, I’m sure they brought this music with them. Somewhere I have a couple of faded photos of their boys with the fiddles. It would be neat to have one, but, no fiddles and no play list. Those boys lived to an old age but no one carried on their music after them. I’m glad to have that connection back though.
Tobus - Posted - 01/19/2016: 14:47:09
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Jarrell and Cockerham never played in G or C that I know of. And I wonder if that's also common or universal in Round Peak.
I wonder.... if the fact that a fretless banjo is preferred doesn't have something to do with that.... you can't just capo up from C to D or from G to A, or uncapo for going down in pitch.
I've seen people put capos on fretless banjos, and it works just fine. But more importantly, I have heard that in the old days they would just move the bridge on the banjo, sliding it towards the neck to raise the pitch in lieu of a capo (which I would assume also meant adjusting the 5th string tuning).
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/19/2016: 18:10:53
quote:
Originally posted by Tobus
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Jarrell and Cockerham never played in G or C that I know of. And I wonder if that's also common or universal in Round Peak.
I wonder.... if the fact that a fretless banjo is preferred doesn't have something to do with that.... you can't just capo up from C to D or from G to A, or uncapo for going down in pitch.
I've seen people put capos on fretless banjos, and it works just fine. But more importantly, I have heard that in the old days they would just move the bridge on the banjo, sliding it towards the neck to raise the pitch in lieu of a capo (which I would assume also meant adjusting the 5th string tuning).
Thanks for the correction, Tobus!
ChickenMan - Posted - 01/19/2016: 18:46:09
Not only that, but the number of tunings used for banjo is not limited to the standard "g" and "c" tunings, but perhaps this round peak style doesn't have the same variety. zeppmusic.com/banjo/aktuning.htm (granted this is a ridiculous list but I know a guy who uses four other tunings besides the two).
tonyelder - Posted - 01/19/2016: 19:22:16
quote:
Originally posted by ChickenMan
Not only that, but the number of tunings used for banjo is not limited to the standard "g" and "c" tunings, but perhaps this round peak style doesn't have the same variety. zeppmusic.com/banjo/aktuning.htm (granted this is a ridiculous list but I know a guy who uses four other tunings besides the two).
Goodness... I'm getting dizzy.
Tbird - Posted - 01/19/2016: 19:40:47
In the Leftwich Round Peak Clawhammer Banjo book 74 of the 82 tunes are either in A (aEAC#E) or D (aDADE) and are representative of Tommy Jarrell, Fred Cockerham, Kyle Creed, Dick Freeman, and Charlie Lowe. Leftwich says the widespread "model" tuning (aEADE) that was common in other parts of the mountains wasn't popular in the Round Peak community. Not sure why that would be but it surprised me because I've always associated that tuning with what I considered "mountain music."
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/20/2016: 02:40:22
Sticking my neck out again (which hasn't been working well lately!
)...
I'm guessing maybe it's that most of the "modal" tunes in Round Peak are actually in Mixolydian, not Dorian,
and Mixolydian (like the RP Cluck Old Hen and June Apple) needs the major third.
It might also have to do with the location and availability of notes to slide on, slides being an important part of RP banjo playing.
ALSO.... when I started playing clawhammer, I learned lots of alternate tunings. But they aren't used for many tunes.... I knew just two, Ramblin Hobo and Last Chance- in "Last Chance" tuning. Those two are solo banjo tunes, not fiddle and banjo tunes. In a jam, even if they were fiddle-able, no one wants to wait AGAIN for the banjo picker to retune after only TWO TUNES!
And I found when I started jamming regularly on the banjo with fiddlers, the fewer tunings used the better.... I quickly focused on 2 C's, Standard G and Sawmill as the most useful. I think the RP players take that one step further. And all this started before digital tuners, so getting in tune COULD be a laborious process, especially if someone in the band or jam didn't have such a good ear!
With only two tunings, if the fiddler is nice enough to stay in the same key as long as possible (and most of them play banjo too, so they've "walked in those moccasins") you could have a jam with only ONE break to retune the banjo. No one could complain about just one break, since it's also useful for other things as well.... among other things, for retuning the fiddle from ADAE to AEAE!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/20/2016 02:45:17
Tobus - Posted - 01/20/2016: 07:14:05
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
And I found when I started jamming regularly on the banjo with fiddlers, the fewer tunings used the better.... I quickly focused on 2 C's, Standard G and Sawmill as the most useful.
I'm right with you on that one! I've messed around with other tunings, but I find it's too much work for very little benefit. So when I'm playing CH banjo, I stick to double-C, open-G, and sawmill. With those tunings and a capo, I can do pretty much anything I need to do.
groundhogpeggy - Posted - 01/20/2016: 08:30:32
Those are the only tunings I've ever played in...they seem sufficient, to me. Where I come from G was the universal key! You'd go to C to get a D. This was banjo and guitar, I think the Fiddler's were already playing their fiddles in the sky by then, but I wonder if they were the ones who started the trend...or was but the banjos? The guitars done care...they sound like they took a whiff of helium when they/ we go crazy up the heck with that capo, but nobody seems to mind.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/20/2016: 09:12:02
However, I have to say... the sound of Last Chance or Ramblin' Hobo in "Last Chance" tuning is REALLY special.... almost special enough to want to retune the banjo and relearn those two tunes.... I think about actually doing it, then I think to myself...."Naw, too much work for two tunes!"
GreasyCreek - Posted - 01/20/2016: 13:38:47
The mention of modal tunes reminds me of Tommy Jarrell's talking intro to his famous rendition of Cluck Old Hen, "in the old timey tuning of A....around where I's raised over there at the foot of Fisher's Peak [location of Round Peak] they call it the Sawmill key.....them fellers out there in Texas, they call it cross-keying."
youtube.com/watch?v=qmXREiXsTgQ
Lee M - Posted - 01/20/2016: 14:21:38
This is a great topic, and ......So polite... Two pages and No arguments... Love it...
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