RogerS - Posted - 02/11/2013:  07:46:52

Lessons are great. Jamming is great. Practice is great. But greater still is to fill your head with the music you want to play. When the tunes are constantly running through your mind leaning to play is easier. Enjoy.

inquiringfiddler - Posted - 02/18/2013:  12:58:50

Let's not forget that formal music tuition is a privilege. A lot of people are not capable of funding their music tuition. Secondly, people very often tend to be interested in musical styles and traditions that were developed and popularized outside their cultural boundaries-like myself living here in Greece. Thus, the presence of knowledgeable and specialized teachers is not always possible. As a consequence, a lot of people resort to self-tuition or other forms of informal learning.

All learning processes in music are really mixtures of individual effort, as well as help and influence from other people. For some cultures like the Balinese and many African musical traditions there is no philosophical or practical separation between ‘formal’ and ‘informal’ modes of learning. The learning process may take place within a particular social context in which everyone is responsible for his own musical development always in strong interaction with the social environment-like with old-time fiddling I suppose...

There is a great number of people that become interested and involved in music through self-tuition. The biggest part of the academic world is concerned with institutional education matters while vast numbers of people perform, learn and create music outside the world of institutions. Peter Cope in his article ‘Informal learning of musical instruments: The importance of social context’ in Music Education Research, (2002) puts it rather ironically: ‘(…) one could be forgiven for missing this aspect if one relied entirely on the research literature’.

Self-taught musicians exist in the practice of all musical styles. Although the way people get involved in music depends on cultural and musical contexts, every music tradition has benefited from the presence and creativity of self-taught musicians. The desire to be involved in music knows no boundaries.

Many important philosophers of education have stressed the importance of self-education and the fact that people internalize knowledge through excitement and pleasure. It is also a fact that there can be dangers in extensive psychological, practical and systematic guidance. Human nature is too complex to be guided by the narrowness of educational and guidance methods invented by others.

Even more so today, with all this kind of information readily available on the internet, with people sharing their ideas, knowledge and experience on websites and youtube, and with vast amounts of information being uploaded and downloaded all the time, we could say that the future historian will be strict with all of us who are privileged to have access to all that information.

Hundreds of great musicians have made and played beautiful music without having any lessons or instruction. They were not smarter than all of us. They just had great enthusiasm for music and happened to be in the right social context in order to develop their skills and build their identity as musicians. My point: Go for it!

(excuse me for any mistakes in my English)

Stergios

tonyelder - Posted - 02/18/2013:  13:34:04

...well said!

garlicfingers - Posted - 02/19/2013:  08:58:46

I've been learning for two months now.  A good book for foundation work is All for Strings 1 or Suzuki 1, that will teach about the instrument itslef and finding notes as well as how to read music.  I use Erbsen's book as well.  His tab format teaches you to read sheet music.  His tab is based on the the each string and instead of 1,2,3, etc he gives you A, B, C#.  I also use  Craig Duncan's book, You can teach your self fiddle which is very helpful if you can read music and you listen to the CD.

I like multiple sources to break up monotony and so I get different perspectives.  I am buying the Wicklund Fiddle method soon.  Find another fiddle player to talk to if you can so you don't have to unlearn bad habits.

flyingfrog - Posted - 02/23/2013:  10:18:28

Over the past several months, many have added to this forum and given all kinds of interesting advice. As a violin/fiddle teacher myself, the one particular thing I think I give to my students that they cannot get by learning by themselves, is me, standing right next to them playing along. I don't mean that to sound boastful in any way!! What I mean is that it can be 'lonely' learning to play the fiddle by yourself (with a book or video lessons) and when you have a 'partner' playing along, a person who already has good technique and plays in tune, standing there doing just that into your right ear, I do believe that can help be a real confidence-builder. And it's more fun to play with others (even if it is a fellow you're handing money to for the opportunity).

I've always approached the lessons I give to my students (young or old) this way–we're two fiddlers in a room and we're both enjoying playing together! Thanks to experience, I just happen to know a little more than you, perhaps, so let me show you some things to help you, maybe keep you from getting some bad habits...but let's have a good time of it and play whatever we can together.

KnarfEK - Posted - 02/27/2013:  19:30:45

I have a "violin" teacher who also knows some fiddle "by sheet music". The only one nearby and good enough for a rank beginner but I'll seek out a fiddle teacher later on.

I was working on a simple Celtic fiddle tune and went over it with her and she had me play strictly by the written rhythm which is not what any video I watched played. Okay to focus on that for good sight reading but should be aware of the limits of written music for such playing styles.

wendellfiddler - Posted - 03/02/2013:  04:57:53

I play a lot of instruments - the curse of the multi-instrumentalist I like to say - but there are several points that have been made here that I agree with wholeheartedly. One - even if you are a complete beginner, it's very helpful to learn an instrument that can play chords at the same time that you are learning the fiddle - mandolin, guitar, piano, lap dulcimer, ukulele - so you can learn to understand the relationship between single notes and harmony without the terribly difficult kinetic/muscle memory problems that learning the violin/fiddle presents (I play the fiddle pretty well - and I learned as an adult - it was probably the most difficult single skill I ever learned in my life). Then, the comment about taking some lessons from a classical teacher, or someone able to teach a good technique - excellent idea - but you need to make some decisions about how you will hold the instrument and avoid hurting yourself, so find someone who will address those issues with you. I'm so surprised to hear someone thinks their time studying with a classical teacher was wasted - it's just a different set of information to put into your skill set - can't really hurt unless you have an attitude about it. Then, thirdly, gather information from wherever you can, but try to find direction for yourself - at least in the medium term. It helps a lot to have some focus. You can change styles later, but work at one style for a while (Irish, old-time, swing, folk, bluegrass, classical, whatever). When you have some chops you can change and expand.

boxbow - Posted - 03/02/2013:  07:40:08

I'm reminded of something R. Buckminster Fuller said, which I'll have to paraphrase.  He said this in the introduction to one of his books, "Synergy," I think, the only part of the book that I was competent to comprehend.  Imagine you're on a cruise ship that sinks, and as you're floating among the wreckage, you spot the top to the grand piano from the lounge.  You climb on top of it and it saves your life.  While it has performed admirably as a life boat, that doesn't make it an ideal design for a life boat.  At least you survive to gripe about it, or cadge free drinks with your story.

I wish I had a good fiddle teacher.  I wish I had a pool of skilled local fiddlers to imitate and try to keep up with and just admire.  I wish I had a trust fund.

What I actually had was a few years as a boy with a school program cello about 40 years ago.  I had a guy (who seemed mostly to play electric bass) give me some fiddle lessons about 20 years ago.  I have some guitar players to try to support as they  play just about anything but OT tunes.  And recordings.

I've managed to learn some things, anyway, primarily by practicing a lot, but also by being willing.  I went to a blues jam the other day, playing opposite three (THREE!!) electric guitars.  It wasn't a good fit at all, and I've decided I have little or nothing to contribute to such an ensemble, but that just means I'll try something a little different next time and leave the blues men to their bliss.  This afternoon is that rarest of all things around here, an OT slow jam.  It's due once a month, whether we need it or not, courtesy of the Hiawatha Music Co-op and my flatpickin' buddy Phil, originally from W VA.  Hiawatha and Phil were both instrumental (!) in getting me a 100% scholarship to Augusta Old Time Week a few summers ago.

Time, talent, desire.  It'll have to do.  Opportunity is only what you make of it.  They say God may move mountains, but he expects you to bring your own shovel.

KnarfEK - Posted - 03/17/2013:  12:32:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by garlicfingers

I like multiple sources to break up monotony and so I get different perspectives. 

---

Same here. I have way too many Fiddle books. ;)

Edited by - KnarfEK on 03/17/2013 12:33:19

ptrckmcconn - Posted - 03/25/2013:  14:28:40

I knew some about music from playing cornet, and having private lessons on it. I also subscribe to "Fiddlin Mike" on the internet, 10 bucks a month. Check out his sit. I also use Elan Chalford's material. Of course, I play other instruments (mandolin, guitar), and have been encouraged that some of the finest bluegrass fiddlers never had a lesson in their life. I asked them what they did and the answer seems to be a common. Listen to records, watch others play, ask questions, and practice, practice, practice. I live in northern Michigan and there are no violin/fiddle instructors available in any proximity for me. So, in my case I have little choice. It's not that I am against teachers, if you are fortunate enough to have one nearby.

Joel Glassman - Posted - 04/04/2013:  16:23:00

I'd suggest taking lessons in the beginning to get the phrasing and avoid bad habits.
After that, a lot of people learn by ear from recordings.Its a great way to learn how players are thinking.
Also, the ear training can build flexibility into your playing. Especially if you learn different
versions of the same tune,and can sing the variations. I recommend doing this in your car...
to spare your family ;^)

JRice - Posted - 04/24/2013:  13:53:14

You can teach yourself to play. Practicing scales and arpeggios help with intonation. Get good posture first, then play in front of a mirror so you can observe that you are following instructional videos or cd's. There are certain things to consider when practicing, such as a practice area that is disturbance free, don't rush through practice, and set goals for yourself. Jerry

FireNFiddl - Posted - 05/12/2013:  11:58:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by FiddleDiddler

 

Lots of good advice. I think I will get the recommended American Fiddler book, maybe find a decent teacher that I can check in with once a month & find a jam to check out once in a while. With all of that plus the FHO, I know I can do it. I know it will take a lot of work, and not be a fast process. Probably the first tune I should learn is "Flop-Eared Mule" because when I make up my mind to do something I can be just as stubborn as a mule to get it on the way. It should be my personal anthem.

---

I only started a couple of years ago, i have to teach myself since my job takes me on the road.  I'm using Gordon Stobbe "Of course you can play fiddle" it come with a cd so you can get the notes and melody/timing.  The book also teaches you how to read music at the same time (but still tells you the fingering)  Flop eared mule is song 5 i'm working on that right now and "Year of Jubilo" was a bit easier since the book progresses through from easy to increasing difficulty.  The DVD "things your right hand should know" i found extremely useful.

Happy fiddling

rbrazz - Posted - 06/07/2013:  07:19:32

I believe 90% of people will learn 4X faster with a teacher than without.  I think a teacher will push you in a good way and help you gain confidence.  There is always the stress of preparing for your lesson.  This prepares you for the stress of performing in front of people.  Do you think any professional football or baseball or hockey players got where they are without a coach and going to 2 a days and pain?  The only feedback around my house is "I've heard that a million times"  "Cant you do domething else"?   Slam the door shut, walk out of the room or start screaming STOOOOOOOP!  A good teacher sees what you need to work on and encourages you. If there are no local fiddle teachers SKYPE is a great way to learn.  There is a list under learn to play.  I love to play fiddle and want the fastest route to get to the place where other people love to hear me play?  I am trying hard. 

 

IdleHands - Posted - 06/09/2013:  11:43:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by rbrazz

 

I believe 90% of people will learn 4X faster with a teacher than without.  I think a teacher will push you in a good way and help you gain confidence.  There is always the stress of preparing for your lesson.  This prepares you for the stress of performing in front of people.  Do you think any professional football or baseball or hockey players got where they are without a coach and going to 2 a days and pain?  The only feedback around my house is "I've heard that a million times"  "Cant you do domething else"?   Slam the door shut, walk out of the room or start screaming STOOOOOOOP!  A good teacher sees what you need to work on and encourages you. If there are no local fiddle teachers SKYPE is a great way to learn.  There is a list under learn to play.  I love to play fiddle and want the fastest route to get to the place where other people love to hear me play?  I am trying hard. 

 

---

Where did you get your numbers?

tonyelder - Posted - 06/09/2013:  16:52:23

No everyone does well learning on their own.

They don't really know what kind of music they want to learn, they just want to play a fiddle. It's difficult for them to stay motivated, or exercise self-discipline because they're not sure about where to start. They need a guide.



Not everyone does well learning with a teacher.

Some folks know exactly what they want, and have a pretty fair idea about what they should do to reach their goals. And for them - a teacher might not be the best route to take. Some teachers require that you to learn things you didn't want to know, didn't need to know, or insist on learning things that can actually hold you back or cause unnecessary frustration.

 

Edited by - tonyelder on 06/09/2013 16:57:15

IdleHands - Posted - 06/11/2013:  12:12:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

 

No everyone does well learning on their own.

They don't really know what kind of music they want to learn, they just want to play a fiddle. It's difficult for them to stay motivated, or exercise self-discipline because they're not sure about where to start. They need a guide.



Not everyone does well learning with a teacher.

Some folks know exactly what they want, and have a pretty fair idea about what they should do to reach their goals. And for them - a teacher might not be the best route to take. Some teachers require that you to learn things you didn't want to know, didn't need to know, or insist on learning things that can actually hold you back or cause unnecessary frustration.

 

---

Very good tony.  Simply brimming with insight, perspicacity and immense clarity.  You're a lot like me!

tonyelder - Posted - 06/12/2013:  07:36:57

No. You're a lot like me! 

Edited by - tonyelder on 06/12/2013 07:37:46

irfiddler - Posted - 06/14/2013:  14:14:19

There are different kinds of lessons ranging from regular formal paid lessons to just sitting with a fiddle friend who shows you things. Or more and more these days - you can learn from Youtube videos, get books and companion DVD's. So these days I do think most would be able to learn basic technique and much more without formal paid lessons if they have the other kinds of lessons. Even though some fiddlers say they are "self taught". I've never known what that meant. I can't believe anyone learns in a vacuum 100% on their own

Where I think a dedicated teacher - paid or unpaid- is most useful, is to save you time and keep you focussed. Especially if you have one who sees the big picture and can help you early on decide the style(s) you want to play.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of violin teachers around, but very few good fiddle teachers - at least in this area.

Also - it helps to have a fiddle teacher who can explain the importance of understanding how to use chords from the very beginning. You might as well delve into chords as soon as possible - unless you are lucky enough to come from a piano or guitar background and already understand them. You'll be able to communicate with your backup players as well as understanding your fiddle much better.

harpon - Posted - 06/14/2013:  20:44:22

Yes- CHORDS- just starting on fiddle, though play guitar and keyboard and some banjo , so know some rudimentary music theory and three chord song theory-

I have a mandolin I keep tuned to a Celtic tuning, I don't read music on but improvise, SO-

Since I just got a fiddle it occurred to me a couple of days back that the violin and mandolin have the same string pattern

and that  I could use the laminated Standard Tuning Mandolin Chord Chart to help me with the fiddle!

And YES- it does help- a bit of structure for improvisation..

mandolincafe.com/two.html

ALL THIS STUFF IS ONLINE, I'm sure, but haven't searched it yet-

mandolin chord chart,

three chord I, IV, V  KEY CHARTS

VIOLIN TUNER: get-tuned.com/online_violin_tuner.php

etc, etc.

YOUTUBE is a great source for lessons on every instrument- in general, or for specific songs

It certainly helps to have personal hands on instruction, and I think a beginner especially should seek that as much as possible

I had some GREAT instruction in classical guitar in regular 3 semester hour classes I took for several years at Los Angeles City College back in the 90's-

a real boost into playing that I could not have gotten with self instruction

but now in the computer age it may be possible to minimize that

The instructor then spoke a lot about "getting over the hump" and I'm sorta over the hump with some of the basics in music in general

It's still mostly a matter of how much time and effort you put into it all I think

Edited by - harpon on 06/14/2013 20:48:18

Frankenfiddle - Posted - 06/14/2013:  21:33:07

I picked up the violin when I was 13 years old, this year marks my 12th anniversary, later on I picked up the banjo, the drums, the mandolin and the dobro, all of which I taught myself how to play (next on my list is the cello, whenever I had one in front of me I got confused because to the left is the upper register and to the right is the lower. . which is the opposite of the fiddle! So I calmly put the bow away until I'm able to afford my own cello). I taught myself music theory, to this day the only thing that genuinely confuses me is the chord theory. . . I do not like diving too deeply into chords, I like to keep my chords simple. I learned how to transcribe and how to compose, I love to compose and mesh instruments together, sometimes when I sit at the piano and try to compose something I can hear which instruments would sound best and what they should be playing. It's weird, I really, really love music. lol



I think above all you have to have the determination to learn and to learn it the correct way, I'm sure there are people out there who would pick apart my technique, that comes with every genre of music (except maybe folk). But it being 'correct' is subjective to whoever is teaching, but I'm sure every one can agree to keep things in tune. lol



You can teach yourself and perform just as well as people who've taken lessons for years. It just takes determination. I don't really think it's talent or a natural skill, it's just being really determined. It took me years to develop my ears, and it took me a long time to learn the proper fiddle technique but it is possible. I learned a lot of things the hard way because I didn't have anyone correcting me, but I eventually figured it out! It was really hard at times but my love for the violin won out over the frustration. 

Edited by - Frankenfiddle on 06/14/2013 21:38:28

rastewart - Posted - 06/15/2013:  22:55:16

Lots of excellent ideas here.  In my case, while I'd like to add to the five lessons I had several years ago, it's not in my time budget as well as my financial budget.  But I think YouTube and other resources mentioned here can be a great help.

Incidentally, I have heard and read that a fellow by the name of Johann Sebastian Bach was at least partly self-taught.  From what I hear, he seems to have done all right.

~Rich

rbrazz - Posted - 06/29/2013:  16:02:27

I am taking lessons on skype.  You can push record and have the lesson your teacher gives you on your computer.  Unless you are one of those supernaturally gifted people you will learn 4 or 5 times faster with a teacher.  I bought  Ian Walsh Sally Goodin and he is a good player and teacher.  The skype teacher is teaching the bowing to Sally Goodin and how to get back to a down bow on the 1 and 3 beat.  I already know a lot of fiddle tunes on mandolin.  Bowing and confidence is a big thing you get lots faster from a teacher.  If you love something you can find a way to pay for even a lesson a month.  PS there are a lot of free rhythm soundtracks on the flatpick apprentice on internet.  Good Luck

whigski - Posted - 08/06/2013:  15:48:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

 

No everyone does well learning on their own.

They don't really know what kind of music they want to learn, they just want to play a fiddle. It's difficult for them to stay motivated, or exercise self-discipline because they're not sure about where to start. They need a guide.

 

---

I'm not saying you are wrong, because I've heard others make similar remarks. But it really surprises me that someone would want to learn to fiddle without knowing (darn well) what type of music they wanted to play!  Surely they would at least have a song in mind!  Otherwise, it seems like putting the cart before the horse..

Anyhow, I enjoyed reading everyone's messages in the thread.

Cheers,

Bill Whig

fujers - Posted - 08/11/2013:  09:48:27

Heck where I grew up there wasn't any fiddlers. So I taught myself. I didn't get any formal training till I was in my 20's. Got my training from a fiddler by the name Carl Nelson played with Bill Harrol and The Virginians. Carl and I came real close all the way up to his passing 3 years ago. He would call me up to take his place with Bill when he couldn't make a job. I sure miss him. But yeah, most of us are self taught..listen to recordings, youtube. Man I wish they had youtube back in the 70's..they didn't even have internet back then. Jerry

Jethro Aberdeen - Posted - 02/19/2014:  18:06:00

Well, today was my first real fiddle lesson. I found a Fiddle lessons business card in my front door before Christmas and finally got around to setting up an appointment. I loved it! good thing I didn't learn too many bad habits. My bowing has been very poor before now and  I'm surprised at how different the correct way is. The other thing is the left hand positioning for going down the scale. My tendency is to place each finger on the fret board separately, not together. The last few years I have been playing with the instrument but not concentrating on the right stuff. With a few more lessons I'm sure I will be ahead of the game of not having a teacher. My teacher also plays celtic, fiddle as well as your traditional violin style. I'm having fun with this. I think even a few lessons would be of great benefit to anyone wanting to learn this thing.

kevin

Edited by - Jethro Aberdeen on 02/19/2014 18:08:23

Antonio - Posted - 02/22/2014:  16:45:47

I could find any Dr Susserhauser. Can you please tell me what it is, exactly?

muzioabelardo - Posted - 02/25/2014:  00:58:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

 

Avoid books offering shortcuts. Learning to fiddle well takes a lot of time and practice.

---

Agreed. I don't think there's such a thing as a shortcut to learning music in general.

EricBluegrassFiddle - Posted - 03/09/2014:  04:42:08

This is a great thread, I am glad I found it. Having a good teacher to reference if one can afford it is a good thing. However, we shouldn't discount self learning and learning at ones own pace. My personal opinion is that one doesn't need to go and get formal lessons on the basics, how to hold the fiddle, the bow etc.. There are a zillion of these kinds of videos on you-tube, Vimeo etc...I just dont think it' necessary. I taught myself to play the mandolin and sing tenor, although I learned alot by going to jams but heck, apparently I played well enough to be in a band that traveled a bit and played festivals, and never had a formal mandolin lesson from a teacher. I learned the fretless banjo on my own, pretty much by listening to players I liked and watching videos on how to play and reading forums like this one. I also played guitar in garage bands in the past. The only instrument I ever had formal training on was the FrenchHorn in High-School and one year of Community College. And, ironically, that's the only instrument I don't play anymore LOL. Also, ironically enough, the fiddle was the first instrument I asked my parents for, but they said "no" that it was " too hard to play"

I like Tommy Jarrells fiddle style alot. Maybe its because I already play the fretless banjo in a roundy-peakish kinda style, so I naturally gravitate towards that. Even though there are fiddlers in my family and they are all from Kentucky, his style is what I enjoy listening to and would like to learn to emulate, but not exactly, do it in my own way.

You guys also, not all, but many take for granted that you have jams and fiddle music and fiddlers living around you. The guy from Greece, he doesn't and neither do I living here in Argentina. I know maybe some here might think, for example, that in the appalachians and Piedmont, upper south etc...fiddlers and musicians were everywhere but that's just not the case. Lots of the old timers were very isolated and self taught. Alot of the old Kentucky men I used to know were men who had alot of pride and a "Do it, learn it your own way approach. In Kentucky, nobody teaches you anything. You either learn by emulation, and then go work it out, or you learn your own way by yourself. My great great grandfather Walter "Birdie" Huff he learned on his own and was one of the only fiddlers around in that part of the country there in Hancock/northern Ohio county in Kentucky. My granny said there wasnt alot of music throughout the country there much and it was isolated and spread out, however he learned and could really play according to my grandparents.

So my point is, if you can get a teacher, go for it, but thats not the only way, nor does ot work

Edited by - EricBluegrassFiddle on 03/09/2014 04:46:12

ludwigbartholdy - Posted - 03/09/2014:  17:29:16

Interesting thread. My two cents: Can you learn without a teacher? Of course. Technique can be easily gained by dedicated self-study. Musicality, however, is a different thing altogether. I think this is where a teacher might help out. Also, a student can improve faster with the guidance of a teacher. Sometimes you need another pair of ears to point out your mistakes and/or areas for improvement.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 03/25/2014:  15:44:47

The biggest problem with teaching yourself is that you need to have a QUALIFIED experienced player watch you play and offer constructive criticism and encouragement.

People say they are self taught when they should be saying they haven't had formal training. When someone offers constructive useful information, you are being taught and increasing your knowledge. Informal exchange of questions and answers can be a big help.

mad baloney - Posted - 03/25/2014:  16:29:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by ludwigbartholdy

 

Interesting thread. My two cents: Can you learn without a teacher? Of course. Technique can be easily gained by dedicated self-study. Musicality, however, is a different thing altogether. I think this is where a teacher might help out. Also, a student can improve faster with the guidance of a teacher. Sometimes you need another pair of ears to point out your mistakes and/or areas for improvement.

---

Actually, technique is learned much better and quicker from a teacher, otherwise bad habits, posture and all sorts of mayhem can get ingrained in you, whereas musicality is a mix of opinions, taste and a good ear. Even people who can't play a note on a piano can have musicality and I've seen people with no musicality try in vain for years trying to 'get it'. It just ain't their thing - they need to pick up golf or bowling, but they'll never play music.

fiddlerjoebob - Posted - 03/25/2014:  17:32:14

That must be it, MadBaloney, I got too much mayhem ingrained in me....ha   I knew it !    

alaskafiddler - Posted - 03/26/2014:  16:16:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

 

The biggest problem with teaching yourself is that you need to have a QUALIFIED experienced player watch you play and offer constructive criticism and encouragement.



People say they are self taught when they should be saying they haven't had formal training. When someone offers constructive useful information, you are being taught and increasing your knowledge. Informal exchange of questions and answers can be a big help.

---

I like the term self-directed learning more than self taught, but it is just parsing words - just to indicate that it wasn't the teacher directed formal education; doesn't mean learning in a vacuum; the student is using all sorts of resources to learn from, besides observation (watching, hearing) - includes advice, tips, pointers, opinion, and feedback from others; could call each person a teacher (but, not the same way...); and then sifting through it, piecing it together, using what makes sense or works for them.

Don't know how one determines QUALIFIED (and who's not) -  I've figured if the person has a solution to a problem I'm seeking, offers suggestion to try that works; points me in the right direction, or just has a decent ear to tell me what I'm missing in the sound - then they are qualified. I've got lot's of useful input from folks that would not make the qualified experienced expert cut; from peers that knew one thing I didn't, or just folks with good ears.

The different statements of  "musicality", is interesting; - what do folks mean by "musicality"? - I think points to a difference in overall concepts and attitude about what playing music is about; and different approaches and perhaps goals. And is probably related to one's attitude about being self-directed or formal teacher directed. Probably best as another topic.

tonyelder - Posted - 03/27/2014:  08:21:08

I agree.

Just as it can be argued that no one is really self-taught - I'd also suggest - that at some level - everybody is really self-directed (taught).

You may get suggestions, directions, or instructions from some one else (teacher) in a formal or informal setting, but it is still comes down to your personal choices and your own effort to learn how to adapt and incorporate those things into what you do, when you are playing - or you will never really learn them.

Question is - do these kinds of perspectives really address the question? ...or do they just attempt to prove it is meaningless to even ask?

Edited by - tonyelder on 03/27/2014 08:32:54

TuneWeaver - Posted - 04/21/2014:  15:13:59

OK, enough of the 'talk'.. I read the OP and decided that what you need to do is get a part-time job and GET A TEACHER.. I went the without-a-teacher route and it was fun but NOT easy.. I can understand your dilemma if there are not teachers around, but if you have teachers available and can't afford them..... GET A PART TIME JOB, Have A yard sale, Sell a kid, But whatever you do DON"T try to learn on your own if you are not already a musician...I'm wrong about a Lot of things.. but Not This.. (wink) .LEE

bsed - Posted - 04/21/2014:  18:55:25

Glad you said that Lee. I'd even buy a used car from you. I know you wouldn't steer me wrong (wink-wink).

johnv - Posted - 04/21/2014:  19:57:47

Hey Lee, I'd love to get a part time job but everyone tells me I'm too old. Sell a kid, love too except there all growed up and they might have a different attitude about being sold. Oh well I guess being 77 years is fairly young according to my "older friends"  so I will just trudge along learning myself.   Your Friend  John

johnv - Posted - 04/22/2014:  19:36:58

Now to be serious!!  If you have a teacher available  Use her or him after all you need someone to tell/show if your playing is correct. You might THINK you sound good (to your ear ) but to someone else's ear you just might sound HORRIBLE.  and look at all the accolades your missing from a teacher.    DO IT    If one is available  If you live out in the country like me then try to learn from books/internet/recordings and any way available  Cheers

pdfarrell - Posted - 05/01/2014:  12:51:51

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

 

It IS possible- I did it, but like dougd says, I didn't learn in isolation, I was a banjo player hanging out with and jamming with fiddlers, and some things may have come by osmosis just by doing that.  And I listened a LOT.

I had also had some formal classical guitar instruction, and that taught me things about technical difficulties, and how to overcome them, and also about getting good tone out of a stringed instrument where the strings are sensitive to being played too hard over the soundhole... that may have prepared me for the challenge of dealing with the bow.

And borrowing a mandolin to learn left hand fingering helped- then when I tried to play it on the fiddle I could focus on the intonation and the bow... which is PLENTY!

One of the challenges of teaching yourself is that it's hard to maintain objectivity about how you are actually doing.  It's easy to be super-critical and get discouraged, but it's also easy to get into denial, maybe because the process takes so long that you get used to quite a bit of noisiness and don't really hear it anymore- and if you don't hear it, how can you correct it?

It may be sort of like if you live near train tracks, after a while, you just adapt and don't really hear the train anymore.

A good teacher will encourage you and point out progress to keep your morale up, but will also bust you when you're getting lazy.

And in learning fiddle, you may need both at times!

I think what I did to cope without a teacher was to focus on ONLY one problem at a time, and really work hard to correct that, then tackle the next problem, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the....

You can only correct one problem at a time, so only focus on one at at time- otherwise you drive yourself nuts.

One thing I realized very quickly the first time I drove a car in traffic-  the parked cars, trees and telephone poles on the right side were dangerous, and the oncoming cars and trucks to the left were even MORE dangerous!

And fiddle is like that too- being too heavy handed will definitely get you into trouble with the bow, but playing too timidly can be just as bad.

You have to find the place of balance in the middle.

You also have to learn that working on your intonation is a a job that NEVER ENDS.  You can NEVER afford to slack off on that.

Ultimately, you are the only one who can correct your intonation... your ears and your fingers have to do it!  Classical instruction isn't a magic wand-  Jack Benny was a good violinist, but deliberately played badly as part of his comedy routine.   And who was he "sending up"?  No, not fiddlers- he was spoofing bad violin students!  And it WAS funny, because back then, nearly everyone had a relative or a neighbor at some point in their lives that was horrendous, or at least monotonous!  One of my own sisters took violin lessons, and she never got beyond the level of "Drop-whatever-I'm-doing-and-FLEE-to-my-friend's-house" BAD.

And she's very talented in various ways, and can sing, and play some guitar and recorder- just not violin!

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Two thumbs up to this post!

pdfarrell - Posted - 05/01/2014:  13:10:51

I would say that in my case the resources on the web have made it possible to learn enough to enjoy my own playing (sometimes). If you are motivated to learn you can find a way. This forum is one of the best resources I have found

Edited by - pdfarrell on 05/01/2014 13:12:11

buckhenry - Posted - 05/07/2014:  14:40:22

quote:

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Originally posted by FiddleDiddler

1) Is it possible to learn the fiddle without a teacher.

2) How many of you are self taught?

 

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I did all my learning without a teacher, and now, when I look back, I 'm glad I did.

I learnt in my own time, I learnt what I wanted to learn, I wasn't influenced by one person's style, I didn't get stuck in one genre...........But if I had had a large budget things would have been very different.......

samman - Posted - 05/08/2014:  08:00:15

Ok here is my 1st post after playing for almost 3 years with no fiddle teacher.
It was not my 1st insterment. I have an ok ear that has caused more than one riff
Between me and my teachers. That being said if you can I would at least get the basics
From a teacher. Over the 3 years I have had to relearn things several times due to
It was eazer to play it this way at first and then learned I needed to change becouse
It was holding me back later. I think I would have played better sonner if I would have
Had a few lessons to start. Just my 2cents.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/08/2014:  15:05:13

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlebutcher

 

quote:

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Originally posted by FiddleDiddler

1) Is it possible to learn the fiddle without a teacher.

2) How many of you are self taught?

 

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I did all my learning without a teacher, and now, when I look back, I 'm glad I did.

I learnt in my own time, I learnt what I wanted to learn, I wasn't influenced by one person's style, I didn't get stuck in one genre...........But if I had had a large budget things would have been very different.......

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When I started learning music there wasn't really much of a choice; there weren't  any real teachers (nor other resources- very few instructional books, no camps, schools, let alone web) for the music I wanted to play (initially rock guitar/bass, CW then more traditional and fiddle); I didn't question it though, as I just thought of it going along with learning to play non-classical music; never heard of anybody really doing it any different.  All of it (even rock) was more like folk music attitude. Not to say didn't have folks show you this or that, more experienced folks, and peers, (sometimes just seeing others do something), and plenty (esp peers) were available to tell you directly if what you played ain't it, or sucked (no sugar); but mostly was on own, listening, experimenting, problem solving. And just doing it; making the most of doing what you can do in the now, trying to make it sound as best to the way we thought it should, and then just working to do it better.

Of course thinking back, I came from a culture and background that used much of this way for learning many skills.

Sometimes I read these forums about learning to play fiddle - and all this modern version talk about "the proper" way, good foundation, technique, dire warnings, bad habits, regrets, "rules",  what you "can't" do; so need for a teacher, (much of which seems like violinist training) - then the struggles they are going through; and wonder??? Just seems like a different world, different approach, (IMO way more overthinking); different overall focus, attitude and maybe a different goal of what playing fiddle, and even music is about. I do notice a difference of what folks think of as the basics or foundation. For myself and peers it was more about the sound and especially rhythmic groove early on; and just didn't focus on a lot of the proper music education of future concerns and worry.

I certainly don't regret any of the past - I question the old - could have, should have, would have, argument - any path you chose comes with experiences, you can only cross a stream once, can only move forward; and there is no way to ascertain if going back in the past and dong things different would have given better experiences, or missed some vital ones, and ended with overall better or possibly worse outcomes. For example; if I would have been forced to have violin lessons early on - I might or never taken up fiddle; even been one of those that quit and conclude didn't have what it takes to play music at all.

edit: Not that I am against folks having  the more modern ideas of fiddling, or taking violin lessons, using a formal violin teacher, as a start to learning fiddle; heck even the idea of playing folk tunes like a violinist; those are choices up to the individual. Just that I don't agree with a lot of if it's necessary, or even better; just different. (the outcome might be different) - and say absolutely YES to the OP question 1.) Is it possible to learn the fiddle without a teacher. Has been done successfully very often in the past (despite what violin folks tell you)

FiddleDiddler - Posted - 05/20/2014:  14:17:20

quote:

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Originally posted by leemysliwiec

 

OK, enough of the 'talk'.. I read the OP and decided that what you need to do is get a part-time job and GET A TEACHER.. I went the without-a-teacher route and it was fun but NOT easy.. I can understand your dilemma if there are not teachers around, but if you have teachers available and can't afford them..... GET A PART TIME JOB, Have A yard sale, Sell a kid, But whatever you do DON"T try to learn on your own if you are not already a musician...I'm wrong about a Lot of things.. but Not This.. (wink) .LEE

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I'm glad to hear you are self taught. It evidently can be done (maybe. I haven't heard you play . Lol). As far as getting a part-time job? I only wish that were an option. I am on disability, and can barely hold a fiddle any more. So for now, it is me, this forum, and an occasional book from Amazon. 

fujers - Posted - 05/20/2014:  15:37:31

Alaska, You hit it on the nose.

When I first started fiddling oh some 42 years ago. There was no internet, no computers, theres was nothing but your record player and 45's and album.

I don't think the first cassette player was invented just 8 track tapes

You would just sit and listen and listen and listen to the tune you wanted to play. Now I already had a good grasp of how to play guitar so that helped me figure out the chord changes. Next you would try and figure out the lick the fiddler was playing. It took a long time for me to figure it out but I did it. Picking up the needle and placing down on the spot you wanted dozens of times or even hundreds. Thats how we did it and how the fiddlers before us did too.

Teacher? I guess you can. Be careful though. What I mean is if you get a classical teacher..your going to sound like a classical student. Where as if you get a teacher who teaches fiddle you get what I mean. Or just lean by ear

The ear is powerful thing. Remember the tune " Listen To The Mocking Bird" That tune was written a long time ago long before the internet. Some guy or girl was listening to birds chirping probably from his front porch. Well he or she imitated the sound of the birds on his fiddle and wrote a song about it. Now he used his ears to do this. Just his ears.

Now fiddling don't come over night it takes time to develope. You'll listen to a lot of tunes in the mean while. Listen to them all.

I'm sure that most of you have heard this tune before Ashokan Farewell. Me playing the tune I play 3 parts harmony on it. I don't think for a just a plain old guy with ears did a bad job. Not my best work but my work just the same. Ears are powerful..use them. Jerry 

Ashokans Farewell New

 

laurenrioux - Posted - 06/18/2014:  17:09:39

A good teacher is a great investment- someone to guide you and keep you motivated. But it's not always an option for many reasons- finances, location, availability. I am a teacher and a touring musician and when I teach at fiddle camps I often hear, "If only you lived in my state!" or "I wish I lived in Maine" and I get emails and calls from my own students at home checking in and asking for guidance when I'm away. So I created a site to reach people I can't see on a regular basis. JamWithLauren.com. It's only been up for 2 weeks, so I'm hoping to hear what people think about the lessons.

fujers - Posted - 06/18/2014:  19:53:39

Welcome to the Fiddle Hangout Lauren,

You'll find a lot of fiddlers here. Some good, some not so good (no disrespect) and some amazing talent.

Your website looks amazing to me..what do I know I'm just an old country boy. But looks amazing just the same.

Do you teach folks how to play in all the keys. I mean in F,B,A,C,Bb,Eb,D,Ab on such. I won't even go to C# thats no mans land if you ask me.

I was just wondering

Bile Em Cabbage Down..Do you also teach them how to play the Georgia Shuffle how it's sposed to be played. You know DaDaDaDaDaDa. I don't read those charts so thats the best I could do.

Just wondering

Do you interduse them to harmoney? How it all works..simple as it may seem. It's important for fiddlers to know. Like how to play the second on lets say Bile Em Cabbage Down

Do you teach them how to play 2nd and 3rd position where all the big boys play or all your teachings in 1st? Just wondering

At any rate. I enjoyed your website and I wish you the very best. Jerry

laurenrioux - Posted - 06/21/2014:  18:14:16

  fiddlehangout.com/global/ckedi.../icon.png) center no-repeat #ff0000;cursor:pointer;top:-1px;-webkit-border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px;border-radius:0px 0px 2px 2px" title="Insert paragraph here">↵

Hey

there Jerry,



Thanks for the warm welcome. And thanks for checking out JamWithLauren.com. Currently, I teach tunes in A, A mixolydian, D and G. The curriculum is set up so we stay in the same key for a while. This way the student really learns how to hear chord progressions (1, 4, 5 movement). Hearing the progression is incredibly helpful and necessary for good improvising, creating harmonies as you mentioned, and playing back up. So a huge part of the site is learning theory in a practical easy way that makes sense on the fiddle fingerboard. And it's all done with out notation. There are currently over 350 videos.



I'll be filming more this August, and I'll work on more keys, and cross tunings, and maybe some more 3rd position work. I talk about 3rd position in the Wheel Hoss lesson, because the twin part needs to be played up there.

 

Bile' Em Cabbage, Little Liza Jane

and

Shortnin

Bread are all completely open lessons, so everyone

can try out all the parts of the lesson- teaching the tune, the

chords,

variations, and then a jam track.

Thanks again for checking it out, and the questions!

Best,

Lauren

quote

:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

Welcome to the Fiddle Hangout Lauren,

You'll find a lot of fiddlers here. Some good, some not so good (no disrespect) and some amazing talent.

Your website looks amazing to me..what do I know I'm just an old country boy. But looks amazing just the same.

Do you teach folks how to play in all the keys. I mean in F,B,A,C,Bb,Eb,D,Ab on such. I won't even go to C# thats no mans land if you ask me.

I was just wondering

Bile Em Cabbage Down..Do you also teach them how to play the Georgia Shuffle how it's sposed to be played. You know DaDaDaDaDaDa. I don't read those charts so thats the best I could do.

Just wondering

Do you interduse them to harmoney? How it all works..simple as it may seem. It's important for fiddlers to know. Like how to play the second on lets say Bile Em Cabbage Down

Do you teach them how to play 2nd and 3rd position where all the big boys play or all your teachings in 1st? Just wondering

At any rate. I enjoyed your website and I wish you the very best. Jerry

 

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