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bsed - Posted - 04/11/2008: 21:21:34
There's a debate in another thread about the use & utility of this forum. So I thought I'd land firmly on the side of keeping this forum (though there aren't many threads posted here) by posing this question:
How many of you fiddlers are able to call out the chords to your guitar player when playing a tune the accompanist doesn't know? You know, you're playing through an A tune and you're calling out A, D, A, F#min, D, A........
I can't do it. I play some guitar, so I can hear changes better when I'm playing fiddle, but if I want to tell a guitar player the chord progression, I have to grab my guitar (or steal his) and play through the tune myself.
Just call me Dwight.
Edited by - OTJunky on 05/30/2008 17:30:41
DougD - Posted - 04/11/2008: 21:31:55
Since I'm still much more of a guitar player than a fiddler, I usually know the chord changes. I just can't talk and fiddle at the same time!
BanjoBrad - Posted - 04/11/2008: 21:43:45
I keep a "Cheater Chord Chart" book near me at all times!
But, that's probably because I need it to back up other players, I haven't learned the chord sequences to many OT tunes, yet.
Brad
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kyfiddler1 - Posted - 04/11/2008: 21:55:50
I can't do it ether Dwight.
Practice only on days that you eat!!
Kyfiddler1
fiddlerdi - Posted - 04/11/2008: 22:23:33
I can relate. It's really hard for me too. Fortunately, most of the tunes only have three or four chords so you can get in the ballpark with the I, IV, and V chords. A lot of guitar players will start to get it from there. Amos Chase, an old time champion fiddler from these parts, that I never had the pleasure of meeting, (I now teach his daughter) could sit there and play and call out the chords. How he learned that, I don't know. He would always have her call the tune with the key. I imagine he just learned to memorize the progressions for the tunes he played. She's shared a lot of his recordings with me and on some of them you can hear him calling the chords. I guess you could do the same. Just memorize the A and B part progressions. I really know what you mean when you say you have to grab your guitar and then you can show them.
FiddlerDi
bob t - Posted - 04/11/2008: 22:25:09
I can call out the chord..........but most of the time not until on the beat that the chord change should be on. That doesn't give the guitarist enough time to change smoothly, so by the time he recovers its usually time for another chord change. I call it (too late again) then I'm tickled and the whole thing falls apart anyway
. Oh well, we get a good laugh
.
bob t.
FiddleJammer - Posted - 04/12/2008: 00:24:34
Another good thread.
I feel like the rest of you... would love to call out chords, but I'm not confident or quick enough. But, a couple of thoughts.
When I'm playing with folks who can call out chords, I try to pay attention and remember at least the seemingly tricky bits. Over the years, I've collected some hints for the guitarist. So, I can call them, but there's still a disconnect between calling the chords and actually knowing why they're the right chords. I'm still waiting for that light bulb to go on brighter than 1 - 4 - 5 and flatted sevenths for modal tunes.
Secondly, what I do understand comes from my recent dabbling with a mandolin and banjo, and my hootenanny guitar days in the late 1960's. I can rationalize some music theory, especially if I have a pencil or instrument in my hands.
So, I'm all ears, if anyone can add a little to our understanding here.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
ladymuse - Posted - 04/12/2008: 02:07:40
I can call about 1/2. Thank gosh that most guitar (bluegrass and old timey) seem to know Even the key will tell you the chords - (since they are mainly 1/4/5 b7)
jen
*see my homepage (blog) In Defense of music theory-whether you know it or not - you use it everytime you play!! -
scrubber - Posted - 04/12/2008: 05:25:41
I usually learn the chords before I get the nuances of a tune, so calling the chords is not a problem for me.
What does irk me is the fact that guitar players (who are supposed to be experts at providing chordal accompaniment) need the likes of me to tell them what the chords are!!![]()
bsed - Posted - 04/12/2008: 07:37:48
quote:
Originally posted by scrubber
I usually learn the chords before I get the nuances of a tune, so calling the chords is not a problem for me.![]()
What does irk me is the fact that guitar players (who are supposed to be experts at providing chordal accompaniment) need the likes of me to tell them what the chords are!!
Edited by - bsed on 04/12/2008 07:44:28
coelhoe - Posted - 04/12/2008: 11:33:15
This first time or two for a new guitarist, I'll sing the melody while I'm playing it on the fiddle, but not singing any words but rather the chord names. Or just the chord names on the beat. This is not something I worked at, it just happened that way.
But for some more complex arrangements (Blackberry Blossom, for example), you have take the guitarist aside and go through it slowly the first time or two.
Dennis
"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock
strokestyle - Posted - 04/12/2008: 15:31:56
One fiddler who can do this in spades is Billy Mathews. I have sat in Billy's court many times and I am always so glad to be there. Billy is so helpful to all the musicians! He is always aware of the guitar player and that is the person in his circle that has all the heat. If the guitar player can hold the fort down with the right cords and the correct placement the whole circle benefits. I think it is crucial to good jam sessions to have the guitar playing the right chords at the right time. Ever notice how many players in a circle have their eyes pasted on the guitar guy for chord arrangements?
M-D - Posted - 04/12/2008: 17:01:39
I saw this thread, and instantly thought of Billy. He's exceptional at providing guidance, not only as to chords but also the correct rhythmic emphasis for OT.
We be having high court pretty soon, Christine! ![]()
_________________________________________________________________
M-D
Old-Time, All the Time
Music is found in the space between the notes -- in the silence between the chords. Get your spaces right, and you've got it. ~ Albert Greenfield
jeffiddle - Posted - 04/12/2008: 17:09:10
I've always had a problem calling out chords when playing fiddle, so I devised a work-around system that seems to help get new tunes off to a good start.
Fellow jammers coined it 'Jefflature', and tune details are outlined on a sheet of paper and placed where it can be seen by most people in the group. The chords are written with permanent marker and large enough to be read from a distance, and that seems to reduce confusion associated with what chords to play and helps the whole tune come together more quickly. On the same sheet, I write out the basic tune in mandolin tablature to serve as a memory refresher to me, and also for anyone else to learn from. Also I include tune sources and any other information that is useful.
Overall, the system works well, and I've learned many tunes using these sheets.
Jeff
mike jarboe - Posted - 04/12/2008: 18:41:35
I don't call out chords because I have no idea what the chords are..
I don't really know what the notes are, either. I just play them.
Lou - Posted - 04/13/2008: 20:01:58
Well, I learned how to play the guitar many, many years before I even attempted to try to play the fiddle. Now, on the tunes that I learned FIRST on the guitar, I have no trouble at all calling out the chords. But, on the tunes that I have learned recently on the fiddle, if they are not simple and straight forward, I have to stop and think what the chords are before attempting to tell the guitar player the chords. And, if I learned the song in one key but now play it in a different key (mostly applicable to vocal tunes where the lead singer calls the key) I also have to think about the chords before i could call them out. I can't even begin to explain this one!
Long Bow Louie
Alcuni giorni lei e il cane
Alcuni giorni lei e l'idrante.......
DougD - Posted - 04/13/2008: 20:47:51
Again from a guitar player's point of view, I wish the people who made up the alphabet hadn't gotten into such a rhyming rut with the letters for musical notes:
Bee
Cee
Dee
Eee
Gee
Of course you learn to narrow it down, but sometimes its hard to tell in a loud jam session.
Johnny Thomasson - Posted - 04/14/2008: 14:06:22
It's a funny thing, I can't call the alpha character of the chord progression while I'm playing (i.e., G, Em C, D, G), but I can call the changes using the Nashville Number System (i.e., 1, 6m, 4, 5, 1) while playing, and do when the bass or rhythm player is about to lose the bubble on the progression. I suppose it's because of the way I think about chord progression. The only chord name I want to know is the key signature the song is in. To me, the changes are all relative to that.
Interesting thread. But I still think it would fit nicely under playing advice. ![]()
(Just havin' a little fun with ya Dwight, ol' buddy.
)
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Again from a guitar player's point of view, I wish the people who made up the alphabet hadn't gotten into such a rhyming rut with the letters for musical notes:
Bee
Cee
Dee
Eee
Gee
Of course you learn to narrow it down, but sometimes its hard to tell in a loud jam session.
jehanna - Posted - 04/22/2008: 13:31:18
odd conincidince this topic should show up now. I just spent the weekend in Dahlonega at a real fine festival and we had maybe 25 fiddlers. many awsome good. a few real bad (me). the chord question kept coming up because a lot of the pickers did not know some of the tunes the fiddlers wanted to do. The joke of the weekend became fiddlers don't do chords. I play bass, that I am good at, chords are everything to a bass player. I can pick out the chords and play something I have never heard before and I can call and keep everyone else up. ---But when I play fiddle they no longer come to me. I can hear the changes and progressions but can not think about what they are and keep up the melody at tempo. Even stuff I play on bass asleep is lost to me. -- I am not suprised at all that someone who only plays fiddle never thinks in chords.
When I can play faded love like Bobby Hicks I will quit learning.
Hi Strung - Posted - 05/08/2008: 06:44:33
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I just can't talk and fiddle at the same time!
vajrabum - Posted - 05/08/2008: 15:08:01
I don't know how much light this sheds but here's how I think about it.
0. Your ear is your most important guide. If it sounds wrong, then it is. If it sounds right then it's right. Even if it sounds right, it's not right unless all the chord players agree and play the same chords.
1. What's the key and mode? Those two things determine which chords are possible in most cases. In major (Ionian) mode those are:
I - C C E G | B
ii - Dm D F A | C
iii - Em E G B | D
IV - F F A C | E
V - G G B D | F
vi - Am A C E | G
vii - Bdim B D F | A
Most common chords I, IV, V, vi (C, F, G, Am )
Less likely ii, iii (Dm, Em)
Rarely seen vii dim (Bdim)
Dorian mode
i - Dm D F A | C
ii - Em E G B | D
III - F F A C | E
IV - G G B D | F
v - Am A C E | G
vi - Bdim B D F | A
VII - C C E G | B
Most Common Chords i, VII, IV, v (Dm, C, G, Am)
Myxolydian mode
I - G G B D | F
ii - Am A C E | G
iii - Bdim B D F | A
IV - C C E G | B
v - Dm D F A | C
vi - Em E G B | D
VII - F F A C | E
Most common chords I, VII, v or V (G, F, Dm or D)
Aeolian (Natural minor)
i - Am A C E | G
ii - Bdim B D F | A
III - C C E G | B
iv - Dm D F A | C
v - Em E G B | D
VI - F F A C | E
VII - G G B D | F
Most common chords i, iv, V or V7 or v (Am, Dm, E, E7 or Em)
In the lists above I have shown the Chord names and the tones found in the chords for the key of C major, D Dorian, G Myxolydian and A minor. The notes after the "|" character are the 7th tones. I've entirely skipped an explanation of what modes are. If you don't get that I could post one I have laying around somewhere.
Old-time fiddle doesn't use a lot of 7th chords, except sometimes in the V7 chord but the tunes contain plenty of 7th tones which is why I showed them above. If you see Fs and Gs on the beat in a C tune then that measure might have a G or G7 chord.
Notice that in Myxolydian mode a D major or D7 chord doesn't really make sense but that's what people often play. You can hear the same thing at work in the natural minor where it's more common to hear V or V7 (E or E7) than v (Em). The V - I progression is embedded deeply into our psyches and folks will play as major V to major I even if the mode calls for a minor. Sometimes they'll change the notes of the tune (7 to b7) to match the chords too.
To identify the mode generally look at the last note of the part (two part modal fiddle tunes often change modes between the A part and the B part. That is almost always your tonic or key center. If the tune ends on D and has no sharps then it probably D dorian (b3 and b7 tones). If it's in E and there are only 2 sharps then it likely E Dorian. Myxolydian tunes have one less sharp (b7) than the major. So G Myxolydian has no sharps.
2. Typically you'll see chord tones on the beats (1, 2, 3, 4). Most non-chord tones will be found on the upbeats (ands). You can often easily identify the chord by looking at those tones.
3. If notes are in a scalar sequence then the first note and the last note may indicate the chord: C D E F | G might be a C chord followed by a G. Sometimes this will cause non-chord tones to end up on the beats.
4. Hornpipes will tend to be mostly arpeggios. That makes it easy. The chord is spelled out by the notes in the argpeggio.
5. Any accidentals, extra sharps or flats are usually a clue that the chord is not going to be diatonic. Often that note will be a 7th or a 3 of it's respective chord (not necessarily of the key of the tune).
6. There are some harmonic "rules" that guide how progressions usually go. Often when there are two harmonic possibilities for a chord the "rule" will determine the chord chosen.
The first chord is usually going to be the I chord.
The la
FiddleJammer - Posted - 05/16/2008: 17:54:59
Vajrabum, thanks so much for taking the time to write all that out. You've really made a lot of sense out of it for me.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
Edited by - FiddleJammer on 01/28/2009 13:32:57
ChickenMan - Posted - 01/28/2009: 15:31:30
I do know that stuff, AND play guitar but that doesn't help me since fiddling and talking is still a chore. Plus so many of the tunes I play seem to be more involved than just I, IV, V, and unless the guitar player is used to fiddle tunes, most I come across can't begin to keep up with the timing involved in the changes.
Ultimately you do have to be able to fiddle and talk/sing at the same time and some of us may never be able to do so proficiently. In my 30 odd years of guitar playing, I've gotten really good at talking and playing at the same time, but of the 15 people I've been in bands with only 2 were really capable of carrying on a conversation while playing and the rest could barely answer a yes/no question without stopping their music.
I think cheat sheet is the way to go and have been making one for the tunes I know so the next time I get together with a random jammer, they will have something to work with so I can be free to play. And even figuring out what chords to play is a challenge because of the relative minors that can be substituted.
______________________________________
"Music makes time audible" - Suzanne Langer
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/28/2009: 15:36:35
I think the secret to talking while playing the fiddle is to stop playing the fiddle, say what you have to say, eg. 'one more time' or whatever, then hop back into the melody line.
:-)
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
bj - Posted - 01/28/2009: 15:38:22
robinja just turned me onto this site in the comments of my blogpost., so you can just print the pdf out and use it. MOST common OT tunes are in there, though a couple are in different keys than I play them in.
http://www.pegramjam.com/chord_charts.php
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
So many fiddles. So little time!
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Peghead - Posted - 01/29/2009: 10:35:15
It can get confusing especially when the guitar is capoed - Learning the number system eliminates having to transpose. For instance in the key of A if the true chords are A, D, E and the guitar is often capoed on the 2nd fret they are playing G, C, D (G1, C4, D4) Calling out A, D, E gets messy. 1, 4, 5 instead of A, D, E is a little more straight forward and eliminates the need to transpose. (As long as the guitar player knows the system also)
robinja - Posted - 01/29/2009: 13:35:51
I had forgotten about that Pegram Jam site with all of the chord charts. I found it ages ago when I was trying to help my husband figure out the chords to an odd fiddle tune that I had just learned (Katy Bar the Door).
Re: Calling Chords, if I hear the guitar player struggling, I can usually figure out what chord should go in a certain place by what note(s) I am playing - really easy if I happen to be playing a double-stop. Conveying that information while playing is another story entirely! I have grunted out a chord or two while playing, but it takes every ounce of concentration that I have. My fiddle teacher/mentor can call chords in his sleep, but he usually just gestures with a big lean toward the guitar player when a IV chord is required. Anything else is presumed to be the I or the V. If something is odd (like a minor), he'll call it out. He can be hard on a guitar player, but they usually learn something in the process!
Judy
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/29/2009: 15:16:37
Then, there's the infamous "chord hat" on YouTube, in case there's anybody in the world who hasn't seen it yet ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bexIdm0awwo
:-)
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
stringsideup - Posted - 01/30/2009: 00:53:27
What a great thread! Just yesterday I decided I want to become one of those fiddlers that can call out the chords. Can't do it at all, even though I can quite happily play the double-stop chords along to someone else playing the tune. But thinking what they're called during the tune is another problem, not to mention being able to say them out loud!
I really want to learn to do this as a friend of mine is very new to the guitar and I've written out lots of chord charts for her, but it would be great to be able to help in on the fly in a session. I'm going to attempt sitting with a chord chart and see if I can even utter the letters while I'm playing. I'd love to hear from anyone else to whom this didn't come easily who has managed to teach themselves to do it!
abinigia - Posted - 02/02/2009: 20:29:07
I played mandolin for a long time before playing fiddle. I have usually been the one in a group calling out chords. I'm happy to do it on mandolin because I want everyone to get the changes, but I can't talk and play for **** on the fiddle. I would suggest a mandolin as a second instrument to any fiddle player for playing chords and rhythm. I go back and forth all the time.
As and aside, I sometimes wish the other players learning a tune would keep a notebook and pencil handy so I wouldn't have to tell them the same thing the following week.
Brian Wood
http://briankwood.net/
abinigia - Posted - 02/02/2009: 20:31:58
quote:
Originally posted by abinigia
[ **** on the fiddle.
BanjoBrad - Posted - 02/03/2009: 19:12:24
Brian -
Please review the rules and guidelines for the Hangout. Profanity is taboo.
Forum Rules and Guidelines
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Brad
"D n A, the keys of life.", Big Jim Griffith
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abinigia - Posted - 02/05/2009: 06:03:43
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoBrad
Brian -
Please review the rules and guidelines for the Hangout. Profanity is taboo.
jameyspratt - Posted - 03/05/2009: 16:17:20
I would like to add that we should all be thankful for the guitarists and bass players who are willing to learn the chords to fiddle tunes...many of the bluegrass "musicians" I've played with over the years have simply avoided fiddle tunes...like, I'd call out Whiskey Before Breakfast and suddenly everyone was ready for a break. I've always said they didn't want to think that hard, but I guess they just have different taste. Nonetheless, I'm always enthralled to meet a guitarist who WANTS to know the chords, and I'll do whatever it takes to make sure they learn 'em!
bsed - Posted - 03/05/2009: 18:45:19
Heh-heh! You said bluegrass, and everybody was ready for a break. Except I first thought of the usual definition of break in bluegrass.
OK, I think I'll go adjust my meds now.![]()
Just call me Dwight.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2009: 21:10:27
I can't call out the chords while I'm playing the melody on the fiddle, but I've
developed a technique which some find amusing of singing the tune melody entirely
in chord names- sort of like Irish mouth music, but instead of nonsense syllables the
chord name is used for the melody as long as the chord is in effect.
I can do this either while playing low double stop chord equivalents on fiddle, or unaccompanied.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time! ![]()
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2009: 21:13:52
I can't call out the chords while I'm playing the melody on the fiddle, but I've
developed a technique which some find amusing of singing the tune melody entirely
in chord names- sort of like Irish mouth music, but instead of nonsense syllables the
chord name is used for the melody as long as the chord is in effect.
I can do this either while playing low double stop chord equivalents on fiddle, or unaccompanied.
I find it's usually worthwhile running through a tune once like that beforehand,
or of course I could play it on guitar, but singing the melody is still useful then.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time! ![]()
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/05/2009: 21:14:17
I can't call out the chords while I'm playing the melody on the fiddle, but I've
developed a technique which some find amusing of singing the tune melody entirely
in chord names- sort of like Irish mouth music, but instead of nonsense syllables the
chord name is used for the melody as long as the chord is in effect.
I can do this either while playing low double stop chord equivalents on fiddle, or unaccompanied.
I find it's usually worthwhile running through a tune once like that beforehand,
or of course I could play it on guitar, but singing the melody is still useful then.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time! ![]()
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
carlb - Posted - 03/06/2009: 08:53:09
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Since I'm still much more of a guitar player than a fiddler, I usually know the chord changes. I just can't talk and fiddle at the same time!
fiddledust - Posted - 03/08/2009: 23:50:33
I've been shying away from calling tunes in jams because I don't know the chords and half the timeI don't know the key. The Pegram charts will be incredibly helpful!
Now, back to figuring out how to make my chord hat.
spw0766 - Posted - 03/09/2009: 14:43:23
Another great thread for novice fiddle players. I am just getting to the point where I will start playing with others in background fiddle. I'm looking forward to using all of this. Thanks to those with more experience.
www.maelstromtolondon.com
bj - Posted - 03/09/2009: 16:33:52
quote:
I can't call out the chords while I'm playing the melody on the fiddle, but I've
developed a technique which some find amusing of singing the tune melody entirely
in chord names
Feodosia - Posted - 03/09/2009: 19:53:54
quote:
Thank God, or an other diety, for guitar players who have really good chord sense and can figure it out for themselves.
Carl
trapper - Posted - 03/10/2009: 09:08:26
why not carry a clip board with a piece of chalk and write out the changes
trapper
trapper
carlb - Posted - 03/10/2009: 11:03:59
quote:
Originally posted by Feodosia
I thought that all guitar players could automatically and easily figure out chords on the fly ...until I picked up a guitar and chorded along too...hhmm , it's not quite so automatic as I thought
Edited by - carlb on 03/14/2009 13:07:18
Peghead - Posted - 03/11/2009: 06:41:56
Over the past 40 years I've backed up a thousand great fiddlers OT and BG alike. It's amazing how many are clueless - even some of the best! It is understandable though, the fiddle is not primarily a chordal instrument. However, if you have a special or uncommon tune that you've been working on and want to play it out, you should be ready to communicate the chords if you want it to be a satifsfing experience. Especially the waltzes, they lend themselves to a wide range of chord possibiities and interpretation. Greg
abinigia - Posted - 03/11/2009: 13:42:06
If a fiddle player wants to learn to think in chords, there's nothing better than taking up the mandolin and playing rhythm. And it's much easier to sing with a mandolin than with a fiddle.
Brian Wood
http://briankwood.net/
FiddleJammer - Posted - 03/11/2009: 15:54:00
Good advice Brian. My experience has been a little different...
I've played mando, and now I'm dabbling with the uke. It's helpful that I know some shapes from ages ago when I played a bit of guitar. But, I'm finding that playing the uke is teaching me more about chord changes than the time that I spent on the mando. I think the mando chords were a tad unwieldy for me, whereas the uke chords feel very easy.
Cheers,
Terri
tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com
Peghead - Posted - 03/12/2009: 05:47:41
By the way, if anyone gets stuck on chords to a particlar tune, I'll help. Greg
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