My point is that unless the objectionable lyrics “associated” with a melody are well and widely known, you don’t need to pay the matter any attention. In all likelihood, the objectionable lyrics were put to a version of a tune that was already old at the time, and may well have been just one set of lyrics among several put to it.

Similarly, claims of songs and tunes having been “stolen” 150 or more years ago are never cut-and-dry, in my experience. The obvious question that often emerges is where the “victim” of the theft got the song or tune, as there will almost always be evidence of some earlier song or tune that had at least elements of the one in question.

If you’re new to this stuff, it’s easy to get bamboozled.

It sure wasn't musicology or any other sort of academic concern that ruined "Old Kentucky Home". Every American school kid should learn all the original lyrics to that one. It's a unique window on the historic struggle over slavery that broke this country in ways we're still trying harder to ignore than to repair.

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

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Originally posted by NCnotes

I dunno! I didn’t really listen closely to the words until pretty recently… :-) Thought he was a gangster or something.

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Well, yeah - he IS a gangster - who in the course of business, bumps people off ... !

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I like it cuz it doesn't rhyme. 

I guess my wording isn't quite clear...I'm not blaming musicology as a field of study...I'm just saying that the history, our history make some tunes hurtful to those who have continued the struggles in their lives. Maybe white folks assume that Black folks are ok with the language and the whole idea of being a relatively "Happy" slave in Kentucky living under the constant fear that you could one day be ripped apart from loved ones and familiarity and be sold down the river to be brutally beaten, half starved and worked to death. Some folks won't like to hear that like other folks for whom it's all over and forgotten.

Im not blaming any knowledge, just saying what a shame it is that it leaves someone with appreciation for the music, itself...in a situation where you feel like you're sorta forced into waving a Nazi flag while you create beautiful sounds. It's a shame. The shame isn't on the study of it, it isn't on a college subject...it's just there.

You have to wonder if it's best to come out with it and explain that the music is all we're after, or just don't say anything and hope to not unbandage a possibly bleeding wound.  You have to put yourself in others' places to feel the unresolved pain many live with to this day.

And as I said, with some fiddle tunes that usually aren't sung...even the titles of the tunes might ofter refer to the seemingly "joyous" nature of causing suffering to others...or at least nonchalant nature... enough to where a great tune, musically , was created from the imagery. That's a shame too. Not because some people who have studied know that, but because it's the way it is. And with that one a musician can at least figure some or hopefully most people won't associate a tune called Pear Tree with anything more, or a tune called Run Jimmy Run with anything more than just plain ol' silliness. But there's always the fear that somebody might know what it did refer to...not musicology's fault...it's just a shame that it does, or can, ruin a tune.

I hope I finally cleared that up...I'm not knocking academia...I'm just saying what a conundrum it throws a musician into. My wording wasn't meant to be a literal blaming of any field of study.  Just lousy that it is that way.

Well it took away my last sentence...but what I said was something to the effect of....you find yourself not knowing if you should just come out with it and try to explain that the music itself is separate and beautiful in spite of the unbandaging of a bleeding wound that still gives pain and can even feel threatening, threatening that it being as of yet unresolved and here we are singing about it or playing some musical reference to it; or do you choose instead to ignore all of that and just hope nobody thinks you're waving some flag of cruelty in your quest to create beautiful tones, harmonies, and rhythms? Sompin like that I couldn't get back on...of course it grew bigger this time around...lol. My attempt to edit didn't go through.

I play tunes without words, but if I had to sing a song with lyrics that could be painful to people, I think I would just change them… THe musicologists are free to document the true history, but I don’t think that musical entertainment should hurt people …

THe fact that those songs were just accepted back then, is disturbing. But even today, there are things we take for granted…maybe someday they’ll look back and say, “Can you believe that they used to kill people with remote drones back then?” “CAn you believe that people used to go into schools and shoot children?”… (veering off topic! will stop now)

Music throughout the ages has been adapted for many different uses. Composers have borrowed themes all the time. Francis Scott Key borrowed a drinking song to use for his lyrics, and Bach did the same before that with his St. Matthew’s Passion. Dixie has an interesting history, especially because it both became a Southern anthem and was a tune played for Lincoln’s presidential inauguration. Schmelzer used a theme borrowed from one of Biber’s Rosary Sonatas for his own sonata, “Victory of the Christians Over the Turks,” a musical setting commemorating the battle of Lepanto. Borrowing themes and reimagining them is a part of musical composition.

I do think there is a problem—music being shut down or minimized. But I don’t agree that the cause lies in musicology. Musicology is just the study of the music, something that keeps it alive. It’s the pressure of special interest groups that gatekeeps music or attempts to remove it from common usage. If anything kills music, it’s the constant attempt to enclose the commons. There was a publisher that attempted to take control of the rights to Beethoven’s works by putting out editions and claiming that theirs were definitive and that they could enforce copyright even if other editions were used. That didn’t end up being successful, but it was a bold attempt and exposed a dangerous strategy. The families of the long-dead teachers responsible for the famous “Happy Birthday” went after the rights to the song after some Girl Scouts sang it. Because of that, venues across the country stopped using the song for fear of infringement policing. In the end, the song was ruled to be in the public domain, but the damage was already done and some places still don’t use the tune. To me the real problem is in the attitudes of people who have decided that they are more sensible in their modernity than the people who preceded them in bygone eras. I hear far too much of “It’s MY music, so you can’t play it” or “Your music bothers me, so you shouldn’t be allowed to play it.” That’s the kind of attitude that got people murdered for playing Beethoven.

I wrote a song about God once...My song, my lyrics...& it caused a big ole stink over on YT...but it did get 50k plays at this point. Many of the comments were for and many against. I sure wouldn't change them to suit someone else's feelings. But I respect those who disagree with it. It's just music. It's just songs. History is amazing. Documenting it is cool too!

I think there are plenty enough good tunes that you don't need to play one that is going to cause you all kinds of anxiety. Personally, I can't imagine not playing a tune because one of the titles it goes by is offensive, if that's the issue, or because someone has just found out that it was used one or two centuries ago in minstrel shows - although I can imagine not mentioning the offensive title or introducing it with an alternative title or claiming to have forgotten the title. But - I'm not down in the States, so maybe I'm missing something .....

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Originally posted by Erockin

I wrote a song about God once...My song, my lyrics...& it caused a big ole stink over on YT...but it did get 50k plays at this point. Many of the comments were for and many against. I sure wouldn't change them to suit someone else's feelings. But I respect those who disagree with it. It's just music. It's just songs. History is amazing. Documenting it is cool too!

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On youtube, anything remotely touching religion, whatever brand, is a lightning rod for all kinds of vitriol, bigotry, and general madness, I've noticed.

Did you here about the dyslexic agnostic? Didn't know if there really was a dog.

Yes, Violin Beautiful....I said many times over I'm not saying musicology or any other field of study is responsible...I meant it in the same way as saying History has served us many torments...i'm not blaming the study...I'm not saying it again, so if you aren't hearing it...too bad.

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Yes, Violin Beautiful....I said many times over I'm not saying musicology or any other field of study is responsible...I meant it in the same way as saying History has served us many torments...i'm not blaming the study...I'm not saying it again, so if you aren't hearing it...too bad.

Please reread the title you put on the thread and your previous comments. I understand that you've backpedaled now, but your earlier rantings were direct attacks on musicology, as though it was especially responsible for the death of music. 

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Originally posted by NCnotes

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

A murder ballad should be disturbing.

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Well I LOVE "Mack the KNife", and only later did somebody tell me it was about a murderer...! WHat a great piece of music...

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Don't apologize for being naive.. Nobody is more naive than  I  am.. Seems there is an opposite to naive.. 'Know it all'..(No, not targeting anyone here on the Hangout..)  I play music for... the music..

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Originally posted by farmerjones

Did you here about the dyslexic agnostic? Didn't know if there really was a dog.

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I know that guy.. ..had a bumper sticker.. "Dog is my copilot"..

I don’t think murder ballads are necessarily intended to be disturbing. They are mostly performed for entertainment purposes, and people tend to like them for the melodies most. The lyrics or the stories that they describe aren’t always particularly unique or amazing. I think you might compare the fascination with murder ballads with the current fascination that lots of people have with true crime documentaries on Netflix—they provide a bit of escapism and some light entertainment. In a time before iPads and TVs all over the place, rural folk sang ballads while working to pass the time. Many of those ballads were passed down from ancestors, and a lot of them mutated as people forgot parts or added their own. They don’t always make sense or seem terribly plausible or true to history under examination, but I don’t think they were intended as historical record to begin with. Even the original versions were often fairly willful departures from the truth.

I sometimes see reactions to old pieces of entertainment music that treat it as if each piece is a statement of philosophical tenets, and that really doesn’t make any sense. Too much is read into popular songs. They do have interesting links to history, but they aren’t textbooks or primers for philosophical beliefs.

Violin the Beautiful...I'm not allowing you to dig me a rabbit hole...you can choose to get what I'm saying or you can dig a hole for yourself only. Not going there. Have fun.

"Now, people…. when it comes to the scientifical parts of music I know nothing about it, but I can play."

Uncle Dave Macon

whether you have researched a tune doesn't make or break it. its the delivery that matters imo

I just let the world turn. I just let the past be the past.

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Violin the Beautiful...I'm not allowing you to dig me a rabbit hole...you can choose to get what I'm saying or you can dig a hole for yourself only. Not going there. Have fun.

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A very deep hole leading nowhere has already been dug, but not by me.

Again, I think you really ought to read your own comments.

I enjoy reading posts between people who disagree, but you sometimes go too far, Mr. Beautiful. Reread your own posts to see where you become a yipping attack dog who's not talking about fiddle playing anymore.

You're interesting sometimes, and interesting to debate sometimes. But your ego seems to demand that you're recognized as the smartest one in the room all the time. Back off a little and treat others here as your equals in conversation despite your education and strong opinions.

My 2 cents.

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

I enjoy reading posts between people who disagree, but you sometimes go too far, Mr. Beautiful. Reread your own posts to see where you become a yipping attack dog who's not talking about fiddle playing anymore.

You're interesting sometimes, and interesting to debate sometimes. But your ego seems to demand that you're recognized as the smartest one in the room all the time. Back off a little and treat others here as your equals in conversation despite your education and strong opinions.

My 2 cents.

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Talk about ego! You've set yourself up as a judge of what's appropriate and even what counts as interesting.

The topic wasn't about fiddle playing to begin with, but about a ridiculous notion that musicology was harmful to music. It seems that you have also forgotten that the very title of the thread was a direct attack--on a whole field of study. It wasn't a thoughtfuly written critique of ideas or a reasoned argument for a way to better represent music, it was an incoherent venting of spleen. And it was so wildly unreasonable that even the OP's author couldn't maintain it beyond a few posts before trying to back away from it. To top it off, you've chosen to paint a picture of me as the aggressor for calling it out. This is a classic case of "Rules for Thee, Not Me." If the statement is consistent with your own sentiments, it's just a friendly comment; if it differs, it's an animalistic attack (notice the deliberate dehumanizing of your opponent). I see a lot of this lopsided sense of propriety here. 

You can keep your two cents. They're not valid currency.

Life is too short. Play the doggone fiddle! I would, as I said, but my life has flipped into a 24/7 situation that leaves me no time to play, thus can only think or maybe hop online and discuss...just spilling out my thoughts at any one moment in time. The constant reiterating and explaining make this too stressful for my already stressful existence...lol...seriously...I ain't a-runnin' for public office, just sharing ideas. Parse, split, dice, hear what you wanna hear...I'm not into it. I can't begin to tell how stressful my every minute is...I've been to urgent care and sent by ambulance to the hospital twice now...I just can't take it...so stress out without me, please. Dig the holes and parse out literal as opposed to other uses of language...do whateve you want.

Here, since you won't ever play me a tune, Violin the Beautiful, I'll play you one. It'll probably torture your highly selective ears...as happens sometimes. Don't listen if you do't want; I know some of y'all complained a while back that I shouldn't link my YouTubes...well just don't click if you don't want to. My YouTubes are the only remnant of my love of playing music...just thinking...we used to go down into the woods and dig up hearts-a-bustin' and bring 'em up to transplant around the house...no, it was n old beat up trailer...because why should I hide we were unwashed Appalachian, poverty stricken white trash... but we would transplant the hearts-a -bustin' plants to put some beauty up there by the trailer. Yeah I think of it now, because without being lucky enough to have any time for music, watching how life can be so cruel when it evaporates the soul...I don't know the musicology infused in the creation of this old song, I'm sure I didn't do it justice...I used to pick out a bluesy thing on guitar but that was years/ decades before I could get my hands on a fiddle of my own and try to learn...but I did it anyway, because of my love of music. And maybe it's a song of sarcasm...lol...or maybe it's a happy blues...but here's one for ya I might play today if I had a chance to spend a few minutes playing instead of feeling like I'm a hearts-a-bustin' plant in the fall... youtu.be/JkVFYrjS3T4?si=YRgihh6K3FAhs8f1 Don't let the musicology ruin the song for ya...lol.

Hey GHPeggy - tnx for posting about the hearts-a-bustin' plant. I've lived most of my life in southern and central Pennsylvania and spent a fair amount of time in the woods, but don't recall ever encountering this interesting plant.

This is sorta off-topic, but maybe it'll cool things down here a bit.