jameyspratt - Posted - 03/03/2009:  17:49:51

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When playing in B major, if one wishes to address the major 7th (A-sharp), should this note be played with the little finger at the "8th fret" position, or the first finger at the "first fret" position? I'm a self-taught bluegrass player, so please excuse my ignorance if this is a dumb question...oh, and thanks for responding!

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Edited by - jameyspratt on 03/03/2009 18:57:53

Swing - Posted - 03/04/2009:  05:13:54

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Not a dumb question at all.... it really depends on how comfortable you are at using your little finger. If you play the B on the A string with your first finger barring both the A and E strings... then you will be able to play the A# with your third finger...if you are not barring the and want to use your little finger for the A# then you might need to practice the B scale specifically learning to land your little finger accurately. If you get good at both ways then you will have the tools you need to play other keys more comfortably.

Play Happy



Swing

bj - Posted - 03/04/2009:  05:23:51

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I think it might also be situational to the tune you're playing. In other words, where are you before you move into that 7th, and where are you going from it? Sometimes the pinkie will make sense with that, and sometimes not.

^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
So many tunes. So little time!

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masameet - Posted - 03/04/2009:  05:37:34

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If you're comfortable playing in 2d position (one full step above 1st position), then your 1st finger would play the B on the G and your 3d and pinky the A# and B on the D. On the E your 2d finger would play the A# and 3d the B. Wouldn't have to do any thinking except to remember in 2d position, you can't sound any open strings. Still you might worry about creeping up on the fingerboard and sounding a tad sharp (because you have to do so much stretching with your 3d and 4th fingers).

Wow. I think I might start practicing in 2d position just to work on finger placement, stretching and intonation. All the guys I jam with play in the easy keys (C, D, G and A) and I'm lazy and tend to play everything I can get away with in 1st. So thanks for reminding me to get out of being such a blockhead!

coelhoe - Posted - 03/04/2009:  08:24:53

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The theory has been that the use of the Key of B in bluegrass comes from Bill Monroe's stylistic decision to pitch material higher than anyone else was doing, since he himself sang the tenor harmonies on most of his songs. This, of course, meant that the banjo and guitar would use capos (though apparently Don Reno on banjo often did not), but the mandolin and fiddle were stuck and had to learn to play in the Key of B or sometimes Bb. For the mandolin, this is less of a challenge than it is for the fiddle. Even so, many fiddlers sought out Monroe wishing to join his band as a mark of their talent and ability.

I've never encountered an OT tune in B or Bb flat, though I suppose they could exist.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

abinigia - Posted - 03/04/2009:  09:27:50

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Fiddle (and mandolin) allow one to play diatonically - one finger for each step on a diatonic scale. So, in general I would play the note below the tonic (B) with the 3rd finger if the the tonic is played on the A string with the first finger. If you continue on down the scale the low tonic will be played with the 2nd finger on the G string. That way you can play 2 octaves without a position change.

Brian Wood
briankwood.net/

abinigia - Posted - 03/04/2009:  10:03:19

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quote:

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Originally posted by abinigia

So, in general I would play the note below the tonic (B) with the 3rd finger ...

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I mean 4th finger. Seems I'm having trouble counting.

Brian Wood
briankwood.net/

carroll - Posted - 03/04/2009:  10:45:04

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quote:

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I mean 4th finger. Seems I'm having trouble counting.

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Sorry, I'm confused. Is the 4th finger the pinky? Assuming it is, I had thought your first post to mean that the B scale played on the A&E strings would be:

A String: B(1) C#(2) D#(3) E(4)
E String: F#(1) G#(2) A#(3) B(4)

The above works fine, but requires a (complicated?) position change to play the next octave below. I think the 2nd position method mentioned by masameet may be the most natural & versatile. However, I don't play much in B (which is why this thread is interesting to me ).

- Carroll

OTJunky - Posted - 03/04/2009:  11:11:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by coelhoe

I've never encountered an OT tune in B or Bb flat, though I suppose they could exist.

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There aren't any in B that I know of.

The only one commonly played in Bb is "Done Gone" that was recorded by Eck Robertson in the 20's. Ed Haley played it as well and we have a recording of him doing it. Not many OT fiddlers play it - though Dave Reiner has a fine version posted on his music page.

Of course there are a log of "G Modal" OT tunes. G Modal's a lot lke Bb - but without the Eb. That somehow makes everything easier...

Of course again, it depends on your definition of OT. Missouri fiddlers played a lot in Bb - "Good for the Tongue Hornpipe", "Red Line Hornpipe" and Cyril Stinnett's version of "Countryman's Reel". And there's Howdy Forrester's rendering of "High Level Hornpipe". I think Texas fiddlers usually play the "Clarinet Polka" in Bb as well. I'm sure there are other examples.

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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Edited by - OTJunky on 03/04/2009 11:15:29

scrubber - Posted - 03/04/2009:  11:37:15

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It's ironic --

Using 'closed position' fingerings, playing in B is the same as playing in C (although the spacings for C are a little smaller) yet B is considered 'difficult' and C is not!

This is, of course, mainly a 'problem' for bluegrass players (reference: OTJunky's post). I've been working on this and I think it's mostly conceptual -- it seems that it's easier for fiddlers to think 'in C' than 'in B' even though the fingering patterns are (omitting the open strings) identical!

For some reason, I find it easier if I think enharmonically when I have to play in B (i.e., fingering in C-flat)

dave

abinigia - Posted - 03/04/2009:  11:50:12

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Yes, sorry to be confusing. When going up the B scale from first finger on the A string -

A String: B(1) C#(2) D#(3) E(4)
E String: F#(1) G#(2) A#(3) B(4).

Descending to the lower octave goes like this:

A string: B(1).
D string: A# (4 or pinkie) G#(3)F#(2) E(1)
G string: D#(4) C#(3) B(2).

No position change in playing 2 octaves.

I believe you'd call that 2nd position when you're playing in the lower octave.

Brian Wood
briankwood.net/

coelhoe - Posted - 03/04/2009:  12:02:06

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Clarinet Polka is probably in Bb, because, well...isn't the clarinet a Bb instrument?

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

tiquose - Posted - 03/04/2009:  12:06:17

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Dennis, you really must stop being so reasonable.

Janet
"Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back." -my grandmother, Bertha Morgan Nelson

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/04/2009:  12:06:50

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In addition to what OTJ mentioned,
Democratic Rage Hornpipe is in Bb.
It's actually the only one I currently play...
well, I can play Done Gone in Bb, but have played it more in C.

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

fiddlepogo - Posted - 03/04/2009:  12:11:26

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Since the first finger is already assigned to the tonic note, if you use it,
it is going to be most natural to slide down to that note and back up again,
which is great if you want the slide (and in bluegrass you often do)
It would probably be easier to get it with the little finger if you don't want the slide.

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

Dick Hauser - Posted - 03/05/2009:  07:37:08

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Listmember Coelhoe's mention of Bill Monroe, Don Reno, and capoes made me smile. Bill Monroe is reputed to have asked Don Reno why he didn't use a capo when he played the banjo. Don Reno's reply to Bill Monroe was "why don't you use a capo ?".

For some reason, Don Reno doesn't seem to get the recognition he deserved. His single string banjo playing style is difficult to play. Lots of my banjo playing friends said that they didn't like his style. Lots of them tried to play Don's style, but few were successful. Don Reno played lots of tunes that are very difficult to play on the banjo and are very seldom, if ever, heard on that instrument.

gulfguy

coelhoe - Posted - 03/05/2009:  08:09:43

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I always felt that Don Reno was essentially an excellent guitarist who had to make a living playing banjo, and that goes along way towards defining his style. The same with his protege (and my hero) Eddie Adcock.

I've seen a clip on Bluehighways TV of Don Reno and Red Smiley playing "Ballad of Jed Clampett." and smirking to each other because they are playing it in the Key of A without a capos, whereas Scruggs played in G.

If you get Bluehighways TV on cable, Don's son, Ronny Reno, has a bluegrass interview show almost every night.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

DougD - Posted - 03/05/2009:  08:26:42

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Dennis - you're right about Don Reno (and Eddie Adcock too) being an excellent guitarist. At a festival years ago we did a workshop with him and someone asked him for a guitar piece. He didn't have a guitar, so I handed him my D-28. He strummed the strings and said "That first string sounds like its been a-drinkin'. Its a little high." A nice way to deal with that situation I thought, and I've gotten some use out of that saying over the years.

masameet - Posted - 03/05/2009:  09:58:30

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I recall reading in that Smith book on Monroe that Reno was Monroe's first choice as banjo player. Smith wrote that Reno also had that same banjo playing style that Scruggs popularized. But then Reno enlisted into the Army and Scruggs got the job because he was draft deferred. Smith opined that had WWII not been raging at the time, banjo players since then would have learned the "Reno" 3-finger style.

Anyway jameyspratt, what's it like playing in B major?

jameyspratt - Posted - 03/05/2009:  15:57:41

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Wow, you guys are awesome...I stay away for two days and get tons of helpful information...that's just awesome!

Playing in B major is certainly a staple of the bluegrass fiddle and is why I was wondering what the consensus might be among other (real) fiddlers. I have noticed a tendency in a lot of the "new" bluegrass (for example, Mtn Heart) to play a lot of flatted notes (for example, an A instead of A# or D instead of D#)...it seems to make the playing easier and more dark sounding. Interestingly, the D major scale (my favorite) is in face the same as the B minor scale, so I figure there's some kind of weird connection between B and D anyway. But my question arises actually from trying to come up with a "good" break on the song "California Cottonfields" which was recorded by the Seldom Scence and more recently by a dobroist named Phil Leadbetter with Marty Rabon of country fame singing the vocals. I have found that I end up trying to avoid the major 7th and in the case of this song, it almost seems impossible to do this tastefully. So, I think I'm gonna work on stretching my pinky...that will be good for me...but I'll probably try to work in that slide between A# and B also, seeing how it could be useful.

I thought it interesting to think of B and C as virtually identical and can see that reasoning. Definitely tells me I need to work on using all 4 fingers and higher positions to increase my versatility.

Again, I really appreciate all the replies.

abinigia - Posted - 03/06/2009:  09:00:00

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quote:

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Originally posted by jameyspratt

Interestingly, the D major scale (my favorite) is in face the same as the B minor scale, so I figure there's some kind of weird connection between B and D

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Every major key has its relative minor. Once you get the hang of that you'll have made a big step. As you said, the relative minor for D is Bm. G has Em, A has F#m, C has Am, F has Dm, etc.

One simple way to figure out the relative minor to a key is to count up 6, or count down 3, using the key you're in as "1". So: D-E-F-G-A-B. It's Bm (ignoring sharps and flats for now). Those 2 keys share the same notes, just have different tonic or root note.

Also, if I understood what you were saying about flatted notes being darker, you're noticing minor scale notes being played against a major scale chord, especially the 3rd interval. That's one of the things that gives bluegrass fiddle its bluesy sound. For instance, when you're playing over a D chord you might hit some F notes in passing, even though there is an F# in the chord. (F note is properly in the Dm scale).



Brian Wood
briankwood.net/

dlight - Posted - 03/06/2009:  10:48:41

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Just wanted to add how great it is to see the Hangout paying some attention to the more "remote" keys of fiddling. Fiddlers are frequently in a reactive position when it comes to accompanying; Monroe's penchant for keying songs in B and Bb is but one example. In the world of Cape Breton and Scottish fiddling, the predominant instrument was, of course, the highland pipes; the fiddle was, in a very real sense, the "Johnny-Come-Lately" of Scottish music. Although pipers claim their functional keys are A and D, they are, in fact, far closer to Bb and Eb; as a result, fiddlers had to become fluent in those two keys.

Isn't it strange, however, that the key that frequently gets left out in the cold, with the possible exception of country music, would be the key of E (four sharps)? While guitarists sans capo generally hate playing in Eb, they all love E.

That having been said, Jobim's famous recording of "Girl from Ipanema" with Stan Getz on tenor sax is actually keyed in Db, so all the guitar structures are barres and comps. Bill Monroe would be proud!! Lotsa fun on fiddle!

So who''s smarter?? You or the stupid fiddle??

phicks - Posted - 10/29/2009:  11:04:44

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B is an excellent key for blues and bluegrass. The open E is your 4th, the open A is your flatted 7th, the open D is your minor third, and your open G is the flatted third of an E chord. The open D is also the flatted 7th of an E chord. If you spend some time noodling with theses ideas, you will find some really neat licks that work better in B than in any other key. Try mixing open notes with your 2nd position notes. (By the way, Jamey,there is no way to avoid the major sventh in California Cottonfields, since the major 7th is not functioning as a major 7th, but rather as the 3rd of the V chord in that song.)

Pedro

tomfoeofboredom - Posted - 11/17/2009:  12:58:05

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Good question. Deciding how to play this A# is often the most difficult part of playing in B!

To summarize, there are THREE practical ways to play this note:

1/2 position: 1st finger on 2nd string. This is good if you're doing a lot of quick switching between A# and B. (It also sets you up for playing D# and E on the 2nd string). Personally I find this position awkward and don't use it much.

1st position: 4th finger on 3rd string. A stretch, but this is the most comfortable position for all the other notes in the B scale. It's very awkward if you have a bowing pattern that requires a slur between A# and B.

2nd position: 3rd finger on 3rd string. This is good for when you're playing over the V chord (F#), because your first finger will be at the F# and the F# scale is a piece of cake at that point. I find myself jumping up there quite a bit. Of course it's hard to get the intonation right.

There also might be playing situations where you would use your 2nd or 1st finger on the 3rd string for the A#, but I never do.

Basically if I'm trying to learn something in B I typically try all the different ways of doing it, pick the one that works the best and work on that, then decide that something else would work better, work on that, figure out a way to avoid the A# altogether, work on that, then decide the first way was actually the best after all...