Dick Hauser - Posted - 02/13/2009:  14:32:14

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I play some tunes that use double shuffles. I have studied notation and it seems that each chord usually uses 2 measures and 3 note patterns are used throughout the double shuffle. As far as dynamics goes, the only info I have read was in one of Duncan's Mel Bay books. When playing the double shuffle for Orange Blossom Shuffle, he emphasizes every 4th note starting with the 3rd note in the first measure. Since I haven't found any informative literature, everything I write is speculation.

Has anyone every seen any literature on form, dynamics, and usage of double shuffles in a tune ? I like the double shuffle and would like to use it more when improvising.

gulfguy

tiquose - Posted - 02/14/2009:  06:30:55

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You might want to email Eric Sprado here at FHO.

Janet
"Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back." -my grandmother, Bertha Morgan Nelson

OTJunky - Posted - 02/14/2009:  06:40:45

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Here's a thread on it from last October...

http://www.fiddlehangout.com/forum/...OPIC_ID=5200

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

dr.crow - Posted - 02/14/2009:  09:59:05

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Just went back and reread that older post. When I slow dowen Chubby Wise's version of the shuffle on OBS, he uses a LL H LLL H LLL H LLL H LLL H L. All the accents are on the H part. This is different than any of the patterns shown in that post, and I realize many different fiddlers do it different ways.

dr.crow - Posted - 02/14/2009:  10:04:41

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Also, there is another good thread going on this same subject - this video posted by ajisai is excellent:

http://thebluegrassshack.blogspot.c...-orange.html

leroyleroux - Posted - 02/15/2009:  11:54:20

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That is hard to say. I remember when I learned it. I was listening to one the Holbeck (sp) sisters use it, and I tried and tried and tried. Nothing. Eventually it just happened. I could show you what I'm doing, but I couldn't explain it. It is very fun to drop in at jams.

Fiddlepiper - Posted - 02/15/2009:  12:40:22

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As you know, the Double Shuffle or Hokum bowing is the pattern of 16 notes long and consists of 5 groups of 3 notes plus one additional note. It is played on 2 or more strings and is achieved by crossing over to the next higher string for the third note of each group. The final note is played on the lower string Accenting is very important to making the correct sound. in the beginning, your brain will direct your bowing....as you think......"Down!......Up!.......Down!......Up!" But it is important that you play the music so much that you do have to use your brain to think...you simply Hear it in your ear and Feel it in your heart. Play slowly and build speed over a period of time. Play it on open strings.

Terry

Dick Hauser - Posted - 02/19/2009:  15:04:17

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I have been working on the tune and feel that the shuffle is most easily learned by breaking it down into 4 note patterns, each pattern starting with the emphasized downbeat. Listmember "Dr. Crow" has it right. In my case, it works better when I work on a single 4 note phrase until I feel comfortable and the intonation/dynamics is right. After I have worked on the "new" 4 note phrase and have it down, I start from the beginning and play all the phrases I have learned. I should have the OBS double shuffle sounding good in a month or so.

I have a lot of fiddlers mess up the double shuffle part of OBS. To my ear, this is the "signature" part of the tune.

gulfguy

bj - Posted - 02/19/2009:  15:49:45

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Dick, did you see the teaching video on Hokum Bowing that is in the video archive? It's quite good.

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Eric Sprado - Posted - 02/19/2009:  16:37:26

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Like all learning strategies: no right or wrong,BUT: I also break double shuffle into 4 sections of 4 notes each. I have taught it to many people this way and it sticks. I don't write out with musical notes but rather a simple diagram of two strings. Take D and A strings:
DDAD DADD ADDA DDAD. Accent first note of each group. The SECRET is to practice this SLOWLY for a few minutes each day for a week or so. DO NOT SPEED UP OR EXPERIMENT until you can do this pattern without thinking!! Then experiment with adding a note or two to get the syncopated effect. This really works. When improvising I use just two groups of four notes A LOT to add a nice effect.If you have a problem please feel free to email me. Eric Sprado

dsreiner - Posted - 02/19/2009:  20:06:41

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dick Hauser

I have been working on the tune and feel that the shuffle is most easily learned by breaking it down into 4 note patterns, each pattern starting with the emphasized downbeat. Listmember "Dr. Crow" has it right. In my case, it works better when I work on a single 4 note phrase until I feel comfortable and the intonation/dynamics is right. After I have worked on the "new" 4 note phrase and have it down, I start from the beginning and play all the phrases I have learned. I should have the OBS double shuffle sounding good in a month or so.

I have a lot of fiddlers mess up the double shuffle part of OBS. To my ear, this is the "signature" part of the tune.

gulfguy

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I'll throw in my 2 cents here. Perhaps it's 4 cents, since we're talking double shuffles

The notes are the same whether you think of double shuffle in 3's or in 4's. Where L is the lower string and H is the higher one, you can think either way:

LLH LLH LLH LLH LLHL or
LLHL LHLL HLLH LLHL

There's actually a middle string being played as a double stop throughout, but we can ignore that aspect for now.

Let's move on to accents. Most good fiddlers I hear put the accents on the higher string notes. As Fiddlepiper said, the accents alternate down! ... up! ... down! ... up! ... down!. Showing accents with bold, this is:

LLH LLH LLH LLH LLHL or
LLHL LHLL HLLH LLHL

So far, so good. However, what sounds wrong to my ear is the combination of "thinking" in groups of 4 and accenting the first of each group in addition to the high string accents:

LLHL LHLL HLLH LLHL

I understand that some people teach double shuffle in groups of 4, and it's often written this way in books. But I do suggest only accenting the high strings in the pattern, which emphasizes the 3 against 4 feeling of double shuffle. This is pretty clearly shown in this video that Curtis posted http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhang...s.asp?id=998 especially at the end when she speeds up.

I put a live (and totally unrehearsed!) version of OBS at http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhang...c.asp?id=385 I admit to being lazy and rolling the chords the first time through and then shuffling the second time.

By the way, Dick said originally that in one of Craig Duncan's Mel Bay books that Duncan emphasizes every 4th note starting with the 3rd note in the first measure. I took a look at three of Craig's (excellent) books, and didn't see this. He writes out the standard double shuffle in several tunes, with implied emphasis on the high string double stop.

Chubby Wise died about 12 years ago, but you can hear his great fiddling on YouTube if you search "Chubby Wise Orange Blossum Special". Actually, Chubby played an early version of double shuffle without the 3 on 4 syncopation, like this:

LLHH LLHH LLHH LLHH

It's pretty clear on the YouTube video, and I've heard him do it live as well. Since he rolled back toward the middle and low strings at the end of each measure, one could also hear it as:

LLHL LLHL LLHL LLHL

In one of the posts above, Dr. Crow characterized Chubby's pattern as:

LL H LLL H LLL H LLL H LLL H L

If you ignore the extra spaces, that's exactly what I wrote above. It is true that Chubby emphasized the first beat of each group of four notes, but as I said before that's not usually the case with the modern double shuffle.

Well, that's my 2 cents for now
Dave

Co-author, Oldtime Fiddling Across America
Author, Anthology of Fiddle Styles
Genial host of Fiddle Hell Massachusetts (next Nov 13-15, 2009)
Dad and fiddler for Reiner Family Band

Eric Sprado - Posted - 02/24/2009:  14:30:40

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Holy Smokes Dave: You're right! I was trying to be helpful but I put down WRONG spots to accent in my post!!I know better and have taught double shuffle to lots of folks but my brain must have been in neutral(or reverse) when I posted!! Accent high notes as Dave says in his post. Sorry to add to confusion! Eric Sprado

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Edited by - Eric Sprado on 02/24/2009 17:53:06