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Twelvefret - Posted - 01/04/2009: 08:47:18
TomGlos posted an implication that there is a difference between Scottish and Irish fiddling. I would like to know the differences.
Thanks in advance.
chuck
Edited by - Twelvefret on 01/04/2009 15:58:38
Fidla - Posted - 01/04/2009: 09:04:30
There are many differences. Simply put, the ornamentation.
In my opinion (from observing many fine Scottish and Irish professional fiddlers these past 25 years or more), Scottish fiddling emphasizes right hand (bowing) ornamentation, Irish fiddling emphasizes left hand (fingering) ornamentation.
Of course there are cross-over ornamentations. Both styles use right and left hand ornamentation (the cut in the left hand and the treble in the right, for example).
There are many other interpretations of style differences, but these are 2 that quickly come to mind when answering this question.
______________
Adam R. Sweet
www.adamrsweet.com
fiddlejen - Posted - 01/04/2009: 09:40:37
The sound of the rhythm patterns are quite different.
The ornaments are pretty much the same but they have different names and are applied differently.
Irish music tends to have interesting slurring patterns within & across measures. Lots of the ornamentation is designed to sound like bow-direction changes, while the bow keeps going, & then changes direction on parts of the rhythm where, in any other style, it wouldn't.
Scottish has a lot more emphatic downbow-upbow patterns (scottish snap) & etc. Measures will more typically start on the downbow, and rhythms within a tune may be more dependent on specific bowing of certain phrases. And, as I mentioned, both Scottish & Irish use about the same ornaments, but they call them by different names & put them in different places. Which results in a very different feel and sound to the music.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-
God gave me a fiddle and told me to play!
mikey - Posted - 01/04/2009: 10:28:33
I agree, its comes down to rhythm and ornamentation. At one time I thought it all sounded the same. I spent 6 months studying Scottish music exclusively, then sometime later another 6 months for Irish tunes. I can hear the differences now, but having previously only known a dozen tunes of each, it was not very obvious.
MIKEY
Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/04/2009: 12:15:26
In addition to the previously mentioned things:
One thing that strikes me is how Scottish fiddling has a preference for A major tunes over G major-
Irish fiddling the opposite. And it just occurred to me that MIGHT have something to do with the preference
for bowed ornaments rather than fingered ones, since the most important tonic in A is on an open string.
I have always played Miss McClouds (McLeod's) Reel as a G tune, but was surprised (though maybe I shouldn't have been)
that it was originally written in A by Niel Gow.
Scottish tunes also often feature these bow-rocking arpeggio passages,
but Irish tunes seldom use them- maybe too hard for the flute players?
Some of the difference must come down to the fact that the fiddle is the star of the show in Scottish dance music-
the pipers are off doing their own thing. So the fiddler has more freedom to be showy in a very fiddley way.
In Ireland though, the uillean pipes, flutes and whistles are an important part of the music, and
the fiddle isn't nearly as dominant, although still quite popular.
So the fiddle is required to blend in, not stand out.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time! 
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
amwildman - Posted - 01/04/2009: 13:11:35
There's a big difference between Irish and Irish fiddling too. Southern Ireland(Cork and Kerry) play with an more of an emphasis on the backbeat. They also play slides and polkas in addition to jigs, reels, and hornpipes. The rest of ireland will of course play the jigs, reels, and hornpipes, but instead of slides and polkas, they'll play barndances, highlands, schottises, or even strathspeys. A Clare player will play things quite different from a Donegal player who will play things quite different from a Kerry fiddler. Every fiddle style is different from area to area. What's the difference between Kentucky fiddling and Tennessee fiddling?
p.s. Donegal fiddling sounds more similar to Scottish fiddling due to its proximity to Scotland. The further south one gets, the more legato tunes sound.
fiddlejen - Posted - 01/04/2009: 14:29:11
Scottish music sounds like highlanders marching around kilts with bagpipes, & fiddle tunes in non-fiddle-friendly keys.
(The key to playing a retreat march properly, to get the timing right, is to picture those kilts a-swaying. If the imaginary kilts are flipping, you're playing it too fast! 
)
Irish music sounds more like... well... like that lilting sort of Irish accent....
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-
God gave me a fiddle and told me to play!
Edited by - fiddlejen on 01/04/2009 14:30:21
TomGlos - Posted - 01/04/2009: 15:44:36
Thanks for picking up my comment for a new thread Twelvefret, that's positive and helpful.
Lots of very valid points made already in this one which I'd second.
There's a mega thread primarily on the differences between Irish and Scottish Traditional Music here
http://www.thesession.org/discussio...isplay/8988/
(bearing in mind that discussions are a bit more of a "rough and tumble" over there!)
For a quick slick answer I'd suggest the differences can be felt strongly in the relevant rhythm accompaniment, Scottish - snare drum, Irish - bodhran.
Tom
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....
nofrets - Posted - 01/04/2009: 15:54:35
As I listen and compare the two, I hear...
- Scottish using a long bow vs a short bow. Long bows may be used in Irish, but it's not a driving bow, except maybe for Donegal.
- Scottish will definitely use the bow to drive the rhythym. That's not consistent with Irish.
- Scottish will stay on the beat. Much closer to the dots than Irish. The Irish will steal microseconds from the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th beats to create lift. I've found that you can always count on "1", but that's about it.
- Rolls and triplets are much more of a common ornament in Irish music. With Scottish music, they will use a device called a "snap", which is almost like a grace note on steroids. I think they both use cuts quite a bit.
- A lot of Scottish music does tend to pattern itself after the bagpipes. This depends on the music's origin. In some parts of Scotland, the bagpipes were prevelant, and in others it was the harp.
That's my $0.02 USD.
OTJunky - Posted - 01/04/2009: 16:02:26
quote:
Originally posted by TomGlos
There's a mega thread primarily on the differences between Irish and Scottish Traditional Music here
http://www.thesession.org/discussio...isplay/8988/
(bearing in mind that discussions are a bit more of a "rough and tumble" over there!)
I don't know if it's any more "rough and tumble". But it's certainly a lot more entertaining.
I may give up on OT and convert to ITM...
Most people here seem to be tangled up in their bowing..
--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"
Edited by - OTJunky on 01/04/2009 16:06:10
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/04/2009: 16:04:56
Genres are constructs we use to organize the fiddle-music world. They don't have clear edges, or even really good definitions in some cases. The music itself just plays.
I'm partial to Scottish fiddle music, but when I start listening to Shetland tunes, I hear a bit of Hardanger -- which I think would not fit well under a 'Celtic' heading. It's geography in that case.
And you can listen to the Unst Bridal March, from Shetland, tuned in AEAE, and it's not too hard to turn it into Drunken Hiccups.
http://www.amazon.com/Unst-Bridal-M...13712&sr=8-3
Cheers,
Ken
Photos of a few fiddles.
Twelvefret - Posted - 01/04/2009: 16:45:57
quote:
Scottish music sounds like highlanders marching around kilts with bagpipes, & fiddle tunes in non-fiddle-friendly keys.
(The key to playing a retreat march properly, to get the timing right, is to picture those kilts a-swaying. If the imaginary kilts are flipping, you're playing it too fast! )
So far I have learned how to tell if the cadence is too fast without hearing a note.
quote:
Thanks for picking up my comment for a new thread Twelvefret, that's positive and helpful.
Tom,
Is it safe to say that Scottish is more similar to English with Irish being more exuberant.
Is there a difference between Protestant and Cathoic Irish fiddle style.
chuck
fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 01/04/2009: 18:35:47
If one were to acquaint oneself with these styles, who should he listen to? Who are the Kenny Bakers and Benny Martins of Scottish and Irish fiddling and is there any must have recordings in each style?
Sorry, I'm almost completely ignorant of these subjects, although I do have a Celtic guitar book by Steve Kaufman I could use to steal some tunes from.
fiddlejen - Posted - 01/04/2009: 19:27:08
Ya know - I don't spend as much time on this forum - bluegrass not being my favorite style - but today I was reading through a bunch of posts here, and it jumped out at me that there seems to be a lot more hero-emulating in the OT & bluegrass styles than in the other "trad" styles.
Not to say that there aren't plenty of amazing excellent musicians in these styles.... because there are! ...and I guess getting their recordings & listening is a good way to learn... but you might do just as well to see if there's a local scottish club or strathspey reel group (for scottish), or to see if you can find a good Irish sesiun to sit & listen for Irish, to get a feel for the music.
(Hm - guess I should note my own bias here; my first goal was simply to play like the local dance musicians, and even though I tend to sight-read if given dots, still, I've found it easiest to pick up technique & rhythms by playing with others.
Also I'm not giving names because I'll just name whatever I heard of most recently. Someone else, I'm sure, can tell you who to listen to. )
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________-
God gave me a fiddle and told me to play!
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/04/2009: 19:39:52
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlenbanjo
If one were to acquaint oneself with these styles, who should he listen to? Who are the Kenny Bakers and Benny Martins of Scottish and Irish fiddling and is there any must have recordings in each style?
Sorry, I'm almost completely ignorant of these subjects, although I do have a Celtic guitar book by Steve Kaufman I could use to steal some tunes from.
Given that there are so many great fiddlers in Scottish style, any list is going to be incomplete.
Of the easier to find fiddlers, Alasdair Fraser has many CDs out. Two of my favorites are "Legacy of the Scottish Fiddle, Vol 1", with Paul Machlis on piano and "The Driven Bow" with Jody Stecher. He has recent CDs out with Natalie Haas that are popular. One of his early ones, Portrait of a Scottish Fiddler, suffers from 70s-style back-up.
Pete Clark, "Even Now, the Music of Niel Gow" is great traditional music, a good cross between fiddling and art music of the baroque.
Bonnie Rideout has several CDs out. I like her music, but it's a bit tame at times.
Aly Bain is a tremendous Shetland Fiddler, many years with Boys of the Lough.
The Battlefield Band's young fiddler, Alasdair White, does a decent job.
If you definition of Scottish carries over to Nova Scotia, you have the whole Cape Breton bunch to look into as well. Winston Scotty Fitzgerald is a decent one to search for, a generation or two before Natalie Macmaster.
Photos of a few fiddles.
Twelvefret - Posted - 01/04/2009: 20:11:46
quote:
Ya know - I don't spend as much time on this forum - bluegrass not being my favorite style - but today I was reading through a bunch of posts here, and it jumped out at me that there seems to be a lot more hero-emulating in the OT & bluegrass styles than in the other "trad" styles.
I consider no one a hero, but I do call them beloved and appreciated fellow musicians who I have both a kindred with and an opportunity to carry something forward to the next generation as they did for me. I also have the privilege of calling some of them friends.
In OT, I am trying to sound like someone else because that would be antithetical to the genre. What I am trying to do is capture something of the essence of the music and couple it with the muse that is within me. It does not matter if it is done orally or through notation personally, but the soul needs expression and listening to the old dead players is essential in order to hear that soul.
Many of us, like me, are descendants of the Scots-Irish immigrant who came here between 1700-1776 and settled the Southern Appalachian regions bringing with them a rich musical heritage.
Glad you are here, Jen. Stop by more often.
chuck
hyldemoer - Posted - 01/04/2009: 20:39:22
quote:
Originally posted by amwildman
There's a big difference between Irish and Irish fiddling too. Southern Ireland(Cork and Kerry) play with an more of an emphasis on the backbeat. They also play slides and polkas in addition to jigs, reels, and hornpipes. The rest of ireland will of course play the jigs, reels, and hornpipes, but instead of slides and polkas, they'll play barndances, highlands, schottises, or even strathspeys. A Clare player will play things quite different from a Donegal player who will play things quite different from a Kerry fiddler. Every fiddle style is different from area to area. What's the difference between Kentucky fiddling and Tennessee fiddling?
p.s. Donegal fiddling sounds more similar to Scottish fiddling due to its proximity to Scotland. The further south one gets, the more legato tunes sound.
Some one asked Liz Carroll about the differences in fiddle styles and their relationships to various counties and cities.
First she smiled,
then she played several measures of the same tune in the styles of several different places in Ireland.
Her closing comment on it was that she didn't think the variations "rose up from the ground". She credited the specific variations more to fiddlers trying to emulate someone's playing in specific places.
I don't know much about Scottish fiddling other than people have told me they tend to treat it like Classical music with the bow directions marked on the printed page (so the group visuals are pretty).
No?
Perhaps they were just trying to discourage me from joining some else's party, the wacky Irish lads they were.
azfiddle - Posted - 01/04/2009: 21:21:56
Wow - great topic!
Couple of things- I think rhythm was mentioned- I think this is definitely true with jigs. Hard to describe, but Scottish jigs are more like Irish single jigs with a long-short pattern (humpty-dumpty rather than diddly-diddly). My impression is that the Irish do more melodic and ornamental variations... but I'm open to changing my mind in the face of more evidence. I definitely agree on the ornamentation- much more use of long and short rolls and more slurs in Irish- both use the bow trebles (bowed triplets) and cuts. There's also a quality sometimes called "nyeah" that I hear more in Irish fiddling.. except perhaps in Scottish slow airs, which are often incredibly moving.
I'm a biologist by background... so here's an analogy from biogeograpy. There are populations of birds where gradual changes in songs or plumage can be observed as you travel from one end of the range to the other. The birds in the adjacent groups are similar enough to recognize each other as the same species, and they continue to interbreed- but the regional differences at each "end" are so great, that the birds are too different to recognize each other. The changes in style in Ireland moving toward Scotland seem similar to me.
Depends on how far back you want to go as far as some of the highly respected Irish fiddlers- Michael Coleman is arguably the most influential... and after that, it might depend on the particular region of interest, like Dennis Murphy and Julia Clifford from Kerry, Paddy Canny from east Clare, Bobby Casey from west Clare, Johnny Doherty from Donegal ..... just to mention a few. There are many more contemporary fiddlers as well.
Sharon
brynmawr - Posted - 01/05/2009: 04:05:06
This is a great topic! Although I grew up with my dad playing old timey fiddle, and have been a huge fan of Irish music since the early 70's, I am a new comer to Scottish fiddling. I began studying with Scottish fiddler John Turner in June. He was the inspiration for Scottish fiddler Bonnie Rideout when she was a little girl. John is a third generation Scottish fiddler and he is a 10 time Nat'l Scottish fiddle champ. He's got Jink and Diddle School of Scottish Fiddling down in North Carolina.
What I see, and I am definitely a novice, is that the dotted rhythm is very Scottish.... ie the Strathspey. Even where there are plain triplets, plain eighth notes, I am told not to play them straight, but to play them dotted.... and the way the are played dotted isn't written in stone.... it could be the "long-short" or dotted eighth-sixteenth, or it could be "short-long" or sixteenth-dotted-eighth.... This is one of the things I get from him.... and yes, I am discovering new right hand techniques as others have mentioned here. Also, the Scots wrote a lot of their tunes down in musical notation.. I was told that there are reams of old Scottish tunes written down and the Irish, from my understanding came more from the "aural" tradition.... Does this sound correct to you more experienced folks?
Another interesting thing to me, and I don't think that this was unusual, is that John was not allowed to fiddle when he was a young child. His parents made him study classical until he was 14, then he went "whole hog" with fiddling (along with his piping).
I think they are both wonderful traditions.... both part of my heritage.
Another thing I am curious about and this is technically a different topic and that is English fiddling/dance tunes.
brynmawr - Posted - 01/05/2009: 04:10:53
Sorry about the double post.... I must have had a spastic moment.... lol.
Feodosia - Posted - 01/05/2009: 05:00:09
Scottish and Irish music are both heavily based on the playing of wind instruments ...
Think of Scottish music as music based on the playing of the Warpipes ... Highland bagpipes
And irish music as music that maximizes the use of the penny whistle :-)
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/05/2009: 13:21:19
Something mentioned earlier, regarding bowing-markings. The Scottish Fiddle Orchestra is a bit removed from what most of us into Scottish fiddling play. I can read music, but not well enough to follow bowing-markings, at least not without hurting myself.
I do know some very good Scottish fiddlers who can really sight-read. It's a pretty big tent.
Brynmawr, thanks for the clips. I particularly liked the second one. I've looked into John's course from time to time, but never made it across the country. Maybe one of these days.
They reminded me that some of the trans-Atlantic pieces are on youtube. Here's a nice one with Aly Bain and Jenna Reid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCwut-wg7fE
Guess I'm in a slow mood today, found this too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAuSzJc6Zd8
Many more to be found there as well.
I did attend a workshop led by Keith Smith, in Sonoma, which was worthwhile. Here's a YouTube video of him --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKUfPtJiBXY
One thing I read, well, skim, well, notice, in Fiddle Hangout are some very long postings on bowings. In some ways, this doesn't seem much different than marking out bowings. Perhaps I don't understand the philosophy. I think it's a good idea, but I never have the patience for it. I do try. But I can offer another approach to becoming a better fiddler -- dance! In large part, fiddle music is dance music. Pick your tradition, start dancing. You'll find that the tunes make more sense.
Cheers,
Ken
Photos of a few fiddles.
Twelvefret - Posted - 01/05/2009: 13:33:16
quote:
A couple of neat clips of Scottish fiddler John Turner doing what he does best:
Thank you. I like the way his bow bites the strings.
Also, makes me what to wear my kilt.
chuck
tango_grass - Posted - 01/05/2009: 15:00:58
I think tune selection is a key factor. There are subtle differences of how a reel or Jig is played, in Scottish against Irish.
Scottish also has a bit more tunes related to the Strathspey, and thats carried over heavily in its fiddling cousin in Cape Breton.
Chris,
Visit Tango_grass on Myspace! Click here!
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DougD - Posted - 01/05/2009: 16:34:39
I don't play either of these styles, but as a listener it seems that in some ways Scottish fiddling is like classical music, and Irish is like jazz. Or maybe not.
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/05/2009: 16:56:25
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I don't play either of these styles, but as a listener it seems that in some ways Scottish fiddling is like classical music, and Irish is like jazz. Or maybe not.
That might be a fair first cut at it. Most of the Scottish fiddlers I like are very good at improv and play by ear.
Try this --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGxWWctBtwPhotos of a few fiddles.
brynmawr - Posted - 01/05/2009: 17:36:19
Cool, Ken! would you post pictures!? lol....
quote:
Originally posted by Twelvefret
quote:
A couple of neat clips of Scottish fiddler John Turner doing what he does best:
Thank you. I like the way his bow bites the strings.
Also, makes me what to wear my kilt.
chuck
DougD - Posted - 01/05/2009: 19:18:43
Well, Ken, perhaps I was a little o'er hasty with that comparison. I had the great good fortune to meet Johnny Cunningham the summer before he died, and hear a truly magical late night jam where he played with a guitarist from Mali (only two listeners - the guitarist was playing my guitar), so I have no doubts whatsoever about his improvisational skills (he finally quit saying "I've got to play with me brother tomorrow, and we haven't played in eleven years" - I saw that show too, and also met Phil - as an accordionist tried not to drool on my shoes).
What I meant was that many Scottish tunes are composed and written down, from Niel Gow through J. Scott Skinner and beyond, while Irish collections like O'Neill's are transcribed from existing playing. And it seems there's a somewhat stately, foursquare quality to some of Scotitsh fiddling, while Irish playing has a little more lilt - like jazz.
Or not.
You can see another great performance by Johnny and Phil if you search here for "Cunningham" (July 3, 2003): http://www.kennedy-center.org/programs/millennium/
As it happens, the next night you can see the Wrigley Sisters, from the Orkneys, and also my guitar with the late, great Will Keys.
Edited by - DougD on 01/05/2009 19:52:23
oldtimer - Posted - 01/05/2009: 20:35:22
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
....What I meant was that many Scottish tunes are composed and written down, from Niel Gow through J. Scott Skinner and beyond, while Irish collections like O'Neill's are transcribed from existing playing....
Some of my Irish friends used to say that J. Scott Skinner was "the man who ruined traditional Scottish fiddling." Don't blame me...I am just quoting them.
stay tooned....
Glenn Godsey
"Time passes unhindered"
tango_grass - Posted - 01/05/2009: 21:28:30
Awesome story Doug. Johnny Cunningham was quite a musician. and it was a great loss to lose him.
If you really want to hear some good work of the Cunningham Brothers, and a great example of a band that covered both Irish and Scottish, check out the band, Relativity.
They have an album called 'Gathering Pace', and is a great example of their musicianship, it also adds that the Irish brother and sister Musical force of, Triona Ni Dhomhnaill, and Mícheál Ó Domhnaill, both formerly of The Bothy Band. Both sets of siblings pair together to make a rather pleasing lend of Irish and Scottish. Great album.
Chris,
Visit Tango_grass on Myspace! Click here!
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The VZ Valley Boys
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Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/05/2009: 21:28:43
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Well, Ken, perhaps I was a little o'er hasty with that comparison. I had the great good fortune to meet Johnny Cunningham the summer before he died, ...
What I meant was that many Scottish tunes are composed and written down, ...
You can see another great performance by Johnny and Phil if you search here...
Hi Doug, That must have been something to see & hear in person. I only know him via electronic media. And thanks for the link -- I'll have to take a listen at it tomorrow.
I don't think your comparison was that bad. Irish fiddle seems, especially at first, more free-wheeling than Scottish. Scottish tends towards more stately, measured, reserved feeling. Not inhibited. Many years ago, before it was easy to find recordings of Scottish music, I remember running across a few of the old Scottish tune books. Since I was trying to play in a historic setting, it was at least something of known vintage.
I would counter a bit that composing doesn't always mean writing down, and that the Irish tradition has Turlough O'Carolan, which was written down. Writing was the only available 'recording' format of those days. How many tunes have I learned by ear from a recording, which is frozen, the same as written music -- though it contains more information.
Glenn, I've heard more than one person say the same thing about Skinner. He has some decent tunes, but I wouldn't want to be constrained to that as Scottish fiddle. Have you heard his playing? It is available. He was certainly of his time period, which has its own interesting peculiarities.
Cheers,
Ken
Photos of a few fiddles.
Feodosia - Posted - 01/06/2009: 06:28:42
>Scottish tends towards more stately, measured, reserved feeling <
There is a stiffness, a classical feel to modern Scottish fiddling , which is why it seems
classical violinists can pick up the style so readily .... Earlier forms of Scottish music might have been a bit looser, like the Cape Breton Scottish music . Classically trained Scottish
violinists would print tunebooks , so there is a bit of a classical feel to the tunes. Getting back to the Highland pipes ,the major influence on Scottish fiddle music, in the 1800's when it became all the rage to group bagpipers together in large numbers to form marching bands, you couldn't have 20 bagpipers all playing their own renditions of a tune simultaniously. So a very very rigid form of written bagpipe music was invented and implemented that kept all the pipers playing the exact notes together, even down to the smallest embellishment ....even today the best bagpipe bands are judge by how well they can keep all of the pipers glued to the exact notation of the written page , no personal expression allowed .... it's some of the most rigidly controlled traditional music I can think of.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2009: 13:45:30
quote:
Originally posted by Feodosia
>Scottish tends towards more stately, measured, reserved feeling <
There is a stiffness, a classical feel to modern Scottish fiddling , which is why it seems
classical violinists can pick up the style so readily .... Earlier forms of Scottish music might have been a bit looser, like the Cape Breton Scottish music . Classically trained Scottish
violinists would print tunebooks , so there is a bit of a classical feel to the tunes. Getting back to the Highland pipes ,the major influence on Scottish fiddle music, in the 1800's when it became all the rage to group bagpipers together in large numbers to form marching bands, you couldn't have 20 bagpipers all playing their own renditions of a tune simultaniously. So a very very rigid form of written bagpipe music was invented and implemented that kept all the pipers playing the exact notes together, even down to the smallest embellishment ....even today the best bagpipe bands are judge by how well they can keep all of the pipers glued to the exact notation of the written page , no personal expression allowed .... it's some of the most rigidly controlled traditional music I can think of.
Good post.
And in this, you really bring up the REAL core reason for musical notation-
it's a means of getting a large number of people playing the same thing together, or playing related things so that they fit together.
This is certainly true of classical music just as with bagpipe bands.
The larger the ensemble, the more you have to chart things out in advance, or you get chaos and noise instead of music.
The other things people use notation for can be substituted for by
a good ear and good memory.
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/06/2009: 14:22:08
I'm guessing you fellows need a little more exposure to Scottish fiddling, the real thing.
Classical players do well in Scottish fiddling, but they do have to break loose to get the music "reeking with hagis."
Pipe bands, that's not fiddling. There's a connection in the music, but it's not the same thing.
There are tune books of old-time music too, lots of them. Does a book, even a good one, make a fiddler?
Ken
Photos of a few fiddles.
Twelvefret - Posted - 01/06/2009: 14:28:29
quote:
I'm guessing you fellows need a little more exposure to Scottish fiddling, the real thing.
WOuld you mind to post some sound files to help us understand what you think Scottish fiddle style is, Owyhee.
Thanx,
chuck
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/06/2009: 14:37:58
quote:
Originally posted by Twelvefret
WOuld you mind to post some sound files to help us understand what you think Scottish fiddle style is, Owyhee.
Thanx,
chuck
Hi Chuck -- yes, I have a couple in mind, and will get them up soon. Ken
Photos of a few fiddles.
DougD - Posted - 01/06/2009: 15:07:03
I was going to suggest looking on YouTube, Chuck, but there's some pretty dreadful stuff out there! This might do for a start: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtvY5-TPn8 and the links to Johnny and Phil Cunningham are pretty Scottish, I think. Also Aly Bain, but being from Shetland he's part of a somewhat different tradition.
TomGlos - Posted - 01/06/2009: 15:54:07
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
Also Aly Bain, but being from Shetland he's part of a somewhat different tradition.
Well said Sir! Shetlanders would NOT be pleased to to have their style lumped in with Scottish, (although they might be quite polite about it!)
Oh no, I didn't mean to trigger a "What is the difference between Scottish and Shetland fiddle?" discussion!
Tom
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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/06/2009: 16:10:54
Well, Tom, I'll take your word for it, but it takes some of the wind out of my sails. I was going to point folks to this set of field recordings --
http://www.musicscotland.com/acatal...e__1406.html
to show some good down-to-earth Scottish fiddling. It starts out with a fairly raucous 24-bar version of Soldier's Joy. 3 stomps at the end of the phrases. We actually learned this dance at a Norwegian folk-dance class. I know there is overlap between Shetlands and Norway culture, but I did consider Shetland fiddling Scottish. I'll mind my p's and q's better from here on out.
Most of the time.
Though the Shetland Islands are part of Scotland now.
RE Alasdair White -- he always looks like he's having fun, hardly working. The Battlefield Band came to Boise a few years ago, and he had that fiddle in the YouTube clip that DougD mentioned -- note the cornerless body and weird 'scroll'. The ribs are tapered as well. He had two fiddles on stage -- one tuned GDAE, and the other tuned up a half-step, so the A was a Bb, to play along with the Highland piper. They put on a good show.
So, I'm still looking to put up a few more clips, though happy to listen to others ideas as well.
Ken
Photos of a few fiddles.
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/06/2009: 16:58:49
I'm finding that most of the recordings I thought to point towards do not have sound samples on line (or at least I can't find them so far). I'm reluctant to post any recordings here via the Jukebox, because of copyright problems. I'm even more reluctant to post any of my own recordings as Scottish, because I 'speak' Scottish fiddle with a strong American accent.
For Chuck's historical interest, there are some Scottish fiddle tunes on CDs thru Colonial Williamsburg
http://www.ecolonialwilliamsburg.co...4/tavern.cfm
http://www.history.org/media/audio.cfm
The CD I'm thinking of is down the page on the second link -- Nottingham Ale, Tavern Music..... These are tunes that came over to the frontier directly from Scotland (or perhaps stopping a few years in Donegal). The Scottish fiddle tunes on this one include such as "Good Wife, Admit the Wanderer" -- a Bonnie Prince Charlie tune 'in code' so as not to arouse the English. They would have been familiar to the frontier folk of the 1700s.
Another excellent CD for historical purposes is
http://www.musicscotland.com/acatal...ow_1685.html
The Sailor's Wife starts out a great jig set on this one. To get some cross-over, here's an Irish whistle version of that tune. It sounds Irish to my ear here, but not on Pete Clark's recording.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdsv...ture=related
John Taylor is a well-known American Scottish fiddler. This is not the best example, but it shows something different --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TObXYMVqjyA
I haven't heard this one before, Katie McNally, but this seems pretty typical of modern Scottish fiddling --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Laz...ture=related
Hanneke Cassell gave a workshop here in Nampa, then a concert in Boise a few years later. She is a student of Alasdair Fraser (who is Scottish), but she also has Cape Breton and jazz/swing influence--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkGQmG0WWAs
If you want to hear some of Alasdair's traditional music, some short sound samples --
http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Scotti...87913&sr=1-1
and his more modern, though I think still traditional, something like this.
http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Grace-Al...bxgy_m_img_c
As an example of what I don't listen to in Scottish fiddle, but which is fairly commonly thought to be traditional music, there are a few tracks on --
http://www.amazon.com/Scottish-Trad...=pd_sim_m_12
which have the massed fiddle orchestra. Track 10, Reel: Bonnie Banchory / Reel:The Lowers Of Edinburgh / Reel: White Cockade / Reel: East Neuk Of Fife is one example of good tunes gone bad. I'm sure they were having fun playing it, though. I think this would be similar to seeing a group of 14 fiddlers on stage, playing Old Joe Clark or Orange Blossom Special, in unison and thinking that that represents American old-time fiddling. It's fun for kids, and one way to get them started, but you don't want to stay there.
Ken
Edited by - Owyhee Fiddle on 01/06/2009 17:07:30
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/06/2009: 17:30:08
Well, we had a lady join not too long ago from someplace like
Pennsylvania... (somewhere thereabouts anyway) that is a Scottish style
fiddle teacher and a Scottish fiddle competition winner and all-
if we could figure out who she is, she might have something to post,
either example wise or even in this thread.
Oh- here she is:
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/myhang....asp?id=6070
And her website with some music playing right off:
http://www.melindacrawford.com/
And four more clips:
http://www.melindacrawford.com/store.html
Ha- one of them is a Shetland tune!
Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!
"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/06/2009 17:40:36
fiddlejen - Posted - 01/06/2009: 18:09:23
quote:
Originally posted by Owyhee FiddleClassical players do well in Scottish fiddling, but they do have to break loose to get the music "reeking with hagis."
I'd agree that both the Scottish
and Irish traditions are a bit more amenable to classical cross-overs, as they are both somewhat amenable to single-note playing (that is, as opposed to double-stopping) and slurring. Unfortunately, in both cases, it can be a little too easy to continue with a classical bent. I've struggled to overcome my own classical accent, and I no longer hear it -- but, it's probably still there.
(Even though I haven't played classical since I put down my violin as a teenager & never touched it again.)quote:
Originally posted by Owyhee Fiddle
Hanneke Cassell gave a workshop here in Nampa, then a concert in Boise a few years later. She is a student of Alasdair Fraser (who is Scottish), but she also has Cape Breton and jazz/swing influence--
In the summer Hanneke sometimes teaches at the Boston Harbor Fiddle School. (Held on an island in the middle of Boston Harbor).
One of my favorite recordings right now is Alasdair Fraser's "Calliope House Meets Frank's Reel"
(or, something like that) track on the
Fire & Grace album.
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God gave me a fiddle and told me to play!
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...take a viola... add some octave-fiddle strings...
Edited by - fiddlejen on 01/06/2009 19:46:12
Twelvefret - Posted - 01/06/2009: 19:22:09
Thank you Doug and Owyhee Fiddle for your many links. All is appreciated much.
Many thanks also to the many contributors.
chuck
Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/06/2009: 21:02:12
quote:
Originally posted by Twelvefret
Thank you Doug and Owyhee Fiddle for your many links. All is appreciated much.
Many thanks also to the many contributors.
chuck
You're welcome, Chuck. It was a good chance to organize my thoughts. Kinda fired me up to learn more as well. In this age, we suffer from a wealth of information, and for us in fiddling, it often turns into a perpetual 'what do you want to be when you grow up?' problem. Too many cool tunes, too many cool styles.
While poking about more, I ran into John Turner's Jink & Diddle program (
http://www.kitchenmusician.net/jink/jink.html). I'd looked into it many years ago, but didn't have the time or money. Of course if you wait for that day, you'll never do it. I now try to attend at least one workshop a year, though mostly on making these days.
But reading Mr. Turner's page, I ran into something I knew that I had forgotten: the reason why there exist old Scottish fiddle tune books. Money! In Scotland at the time, paper was becoming more reasonably priced, printing presses were common, and one way a fiddler, there, then, could make money was by selling tune books. Nearly the equivalent of today's musician selling recordings. The Gows were known for this, and it was a long tradition.
In cultures, say perhaps 1800s Appalachia, a fiddler couldn't make money selling tune books, at least not easily. But by the 1920s, there sure was some interest in the sale of recordings, which took off.
Different social cultures can have markedly different material cultures, which influence the development of the social culture.
Anyway, it was fun, and I learned as well.
Ken
Photos of a few fiddles.
Twelvefret - Posted - 01/07/2009: 03:32:06
quote:
Different social cultures can have markedly different material cultures, which influence the development of the social culture.
You last post and this statement reminded me of the Briggs minstrel banjo instruction from the 1800's.
http://www.banjofactory.com/books__accessories.htmThank you again for you diligence and research.
chuck
Fidla - Posted - 01/07/2009: 06:05:08
quote:
Originally posted by DougD
I don't play either of these styles, but as a listener it seems that in some ways Scottish fiddling is like classical music, and Irish is like jazz. Or maybe not.
Yeah, maybe not.
There's no improvisation whatsoever in traditional Irish or Scottish music. None. Every melodic instrument plays the melody or sits out, or plays simple backup lines that don't interfere with the melody.
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Adam R. Sweet
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