DougD - Posted - 01/07/2009:  06:30:34

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Well, I was thinking more about the rhythm, with Scottish being "squarer" and Irish having more "swing."
However, how can there be the many regional styles of Irish playing on some of the same tunes if there wasn't some improvising somewhere along the line?

Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/07/2009:  07:56:39

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quote:

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Originally posted by celticagent

There's no improvisation whatsoever in traditional Irish or Scottish music. None. Every melodic instrument plays the melody or sits out, or plays simple backup lines that don't interfere with the melody.

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It's hard to imagine how anyone can make, or believe, such an absolute statement about any aspect of fiddling.

Perhaps it's semantic. If it sounds Scottish or Irish and has improvisation, it's not traditional.

Or perhaps a simple back-up is not considered improvisational. Or if it is improvisational, it's not simple, and therefore not traditional.

We play, or try to play, music we like, which includes Scottish fiddle music. We find room for improvisation. It's typically not improvization on the scale of jazz or bluegrass, but I think that is because of my personal limitations, not the music's. Naturally, if you're playing for a Scottish Country Dance, your options are more limited, but not gone. Likewise in a jam session, you need to be careful, but that's the same thing in a bluegrass session. I've seen plenty of train-wrecks when someone goes off into the ozone.

And even when that happens, the world continues on.

Pigeonholes are not terribly useful, and I have found that they tend to limit the constructor more than the thing being pigeonholed. Perhaps that comes from living in a state populated primarily with potato farmers and Neo-Nazis.

Ken
Nampa, Idaho

P.S. -- I know a couple potato farmers, but haven't run across any Neo-Nazis, though the national media lets me know that the place is swarming with them. And I actually know a few citizens of the state who are neither.





Photos of a few fiddles.

Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/07/2009:  07:59:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twelvefret

You last post and this statement reminded me of the Briggs minstrel banjo instruction from the 1800's.

http://www.banjofactory.com/books__accessories.htm

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Exactly -- same idea. A rising middle-class, looking for ways to spend its excess income, wanting something interesting. The rise of the industrial age, reducing the cost of books and pamphlets.

Cool link.

Thanks,

Ken



Photos of a few fiddles.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/07/2009:  15:05:11

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Adam comes to playing Irish and Scottish tunes via
classical violin training as a child, and then bluegrass, where there is improvisation.
Chances are that most of the Scottish and Irish tunes he's learned he learned from music notation, which probably connects him with his classical background, where improvisation didn't happen.

So I can see how he would see it that way.

However, from the amount of variation in the written versions of Irish tunes I see, that indicates to me that there IS quite a bit of variation
going on in the living tradition, quite similar to the amount of variation I see happening in Old Time. Whether I would call that improvisation or not is possibly a question of semantics or perhaps this:
If most people can recognize the tune in spite of the variation, then it's just a variation. If the difference is big enough that a lot of people might not recognize the tune if they only listened to that section, then it's improvisation- in effect, a new part has been composed for the tune.
I think Adam is thinking of the latter more extreme form when he uses the word "improvisation", since he's played bluegrass.

quote:

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Originally posted by Owyhee Fiddle

quote:

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Originally posted by celticagent

There's no improvisation whatsoever in traditional Irish or Scottish music. None. Every melodic instrument plays the melody or sits out, or plays simple backup lines that don't interfere with the melody.

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It's hard to imagine how anyone can make, or believe, such an absolute statement about any aspect of fiddling.

Perhaps it's semantic. If it sounds Scottish or Irish and has improvisation, it's not traditional.

Or perhaps a simple back-up is not considered improvisational. Or if it is improvisational, it's not simple, and therefore not traditional.

We play, or try to play, music we like, which includes Scottish fiddle music. We find room for improvisation. It's typically not improvization on the scale of jazz or bluegrass, but I think that is because of my personal limitations, not the music's. Naturally, if you're playing for a Scottish Country Dance, your options are more limited, but not gone. Likewise in a jam session, you need to be careful, but that's the same thing in a bluegrass session. I've seen plenty of train-wrecks when someone goes off into the ozone.

And even when that happens, the world continues on.

Pigeonholes are not terribly useful, and I have found that they tend to limit the constructor more than the thing being pigeonholed. Perhaps that comes from living in a state populated primarily with potato farmers and Neo-Nazis.

Ken
Nampa, Idaho

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Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

Twelvefret - Posted - 01/07/2009:  15:55:26

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quote:

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Exactly -- same idea. A rising middle-class, looking for ways to spend its excess income, wanting something interesting. The rise of the industrial age, reducing the cost of books and pamphlets.

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I appreciate your demographic detail. I had not thought about it, but those were interesting economic times that eventually resulted in the depression.

I read once that the banjo did not do well after the depression due to a more melancholy and somber US national temperament that allowed the guitar to take its place. One place that the banjo did survive was Appalachia. Apparently, those folks were already depressed and they needed something to lift their spirits.

chuck

Owyhee Fiddle - Posted - 01/07/2009:  16:16:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twelvefret

I appreciate your demographic detail. I had not thought about it, but those were interesting economic times that eventually resulted in the depression.

I read once that the banjo did not do well after the depression due to a more melancholy and somber US national temperament that allowed the guitar to take its place. One place that the banjo did survive was Appalachia. Apparently, those folks were already depressed and they needed something to lift their spirits.

chuck

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And likewise in Scotland and Ireland. While not true in all parts of the country, Scotland did have a significant middle-class, particularly it the cities, with money to spend. Robert Burns, whose 250th birthday we're celebrating this month, composed and collected tunes. Simon Fraser likewise in the same time period. Even the Gows have been accused -- in these later times --of claiming to compose tunes that were traditional. Composing, setting, collecting can all run together, and the idea of putting out tune books was popular.

You see it less in Ireland -- fewer tune books -- at least in part because it remained more agrarian longer, and was poorer in cash. Wide swipes there, but if you remember the Encyclopedia Britannia, it had a thistle embossed on its spines, indicating where it originated.

Hadn't heard the banjo/post-depression idea. Interesting concept. I assumed banjos remained popular in Appalachia because they were easier to make. I do remember reading Jean Ritchie, the dulcimer player, saying that she didn't grow up around any fiddles. Fiddles were pretty scarce in her area of the Appalachians, so the music was dulcimers and other home-made instruments. I have no way of assessing how widespread that notion is or was, but I do remember finding it rather startling.

Ken




Photos of a few fiddles.

azfiddle - Posted - 01/07/2009:  17:11:33

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No improvisation in Irish fiddling???? I must respectfully disagree...

Improvisation in Irish music is much more subtle than jazz or even bluegrass, but the hallmark of great Irish trad players is "never play it the same way twice". Ornaments, rhythmic and melodic variation are all there, but they are delivered within a much narrow range. The melody isn't lost or rearranged completely, but in the hands of the master players, the listening experience is analogous to watching the ever changing surface of the ocean to me.

Sharon

Listen to John Carty or James Kelly. Or Paddy Keenan's piping. When I listen to their recordings, every time through the tune has an added dimension or unexpected twist.

But I confess to ignorance about the degree to which Scottish fiddlers like Alisdair Fraser or John McCusker, or Cape Breton Fiddlers like Jerry Holland or JP Cormier vary the tunes.

Sharon

fiddlejen - Posted - 01/07/2009:  17:27:51

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quote:

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Originally posted by Owyhee Fiddle

quote:

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Originally posted by celticagent
There's no improvisation whatsoever in traditional Irish or Scottish music. None. Every melodic instrument plays the melody or sits out, or plays simple backup lines that don't interfere with the melody.

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It's hard to imagine how anyone can make, or believe, such an absolute statement about any aspect of fiddling.

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Hmm - Adam's statement startled me too. I was about to post something similar to what Michael said, that really this must be only in comparison to styles like, say, bluegrass. So that what Adam would be saying, basically, is just that there are no "breaks" for wholesale improvisation.

And that is pretty much accurate. It wasn't until I attended a really excellent workshop by Dave Reiner on improvisation, that I was able to come up with variations, even a little, while playing. In fact, before then there were a few songs that I wanted to play as tunes, and the only way I could figure out how to do that was to go through note by note and listen for what sounded okay - write down each of the notes until there was something workable, & then go back & teach it to myself that way.

From Dave, on the other hand, I got the concept that to improvise, the idea is to know where you're starting & ending, and then just find a path through some notes to get yourself there.

So, I figured this difference is what Adam is talking about. Contra music doesn't really take breaks for individuals musicians to show off how they find their own path!

But I just now realized that - no - there's something more to it than that.

Some time ago in a music book I read a quote - someone who had described Irish music by saying that
it contains its own harmony within its melody.

I think that may be correct. Rather than lots of double-stops, & whole notes which can be improvised against, the melody already includes a lot of its own harmonies. So, you can change tunes by adding ornaments - and by substituting equivalent or complementary harmonies or notes - and, you can do so on-the-fly. But I think what Adam was saying is that you cannot freely improvise in these styles. There are already harmonies built into the tunes, and to play too freely with the tune, is to risk of turning the whole thing into one giant cacophanous mishmosh. (Or else, simply a different tune.)

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
God gave me a fiddle and told me to play!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
...take a viola... add some octave-fiddle strings...

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Edited by - fiddlejen on 01/08/2009 16:51:09

Twelvefret - Posted - 01/07/2009:  18:13:48

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quote:

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Hadn't heard the banjo/post-depression idea. Interesting concept. I assumed banjos remained popular in Appalachia because they were easier to make. I do remember reading Jean Ritchie, the dulcimer player, saying that she didn't grow up around any fiddles. Fiddles were pretty scarce in her area of the Appalachians, so the music was dulcimers and other home-made instruments. I have no way of assessing how widespread that notion is or was, but I do remember finding it rather startling.

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See was born in Viper, Kentucky and not that far from a lot of the bedrock of old time music of English, Scottish, and Irish influences. She was born in 1921 the same year as my friend and OT fiddler Clyde Davenport who was from Wayne County, Kentucky more to the West from London. He said that everyone played the fiddle where he grew up.

chuck

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/07/2009:  22:25:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twelvefret

quote:

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Hadn't heard the banjo/post-depression idea. Interesting concept. I assumed banjos remained popular in Appalachia because they were easier to make. I do remember reading Jean Ritchie, the dulcimer player, saying that she didn't grow up around any fiddles. Fiddles were pretty scarce in her area of the Appalachians, so the music was dulcimers and other home-made instruments. I have no way of assessing how widespread that notion is or was, but I do remember finding it rather startling.

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See was born in Viper, Kentucky and not that far from a lot of the bedrock of old time music of English, Scottish, and Irish influences. She was born in 1921 the same year as my friend and OT fiddler Clyde Davenport who was from Wayne County, Kentucky more to the West from London. He said that everyone played the fiddle where he grew up.

chuck

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If you're on opposite sides of a ridge, you can be close as the crow flies, but very out of touch with what's happening on the other side.
Jeannie Ritchie's whole tradition is that of "play parties"- which
were substitutes for dancing in areas where the local church was agin it. So I'm guessing that if play-party songs were popular,
banjos and fiddles weren't.
I play some of her songs on banjo, and they set really nice on it.
I don't have a dulcimer anymore.

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/07/2009:  22:29:47

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quote:

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Originally posted by Owyhee Fiddle

quote:

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Originally posted by celticagent

There's no improvisation whatsoever in traditional Irish or Scottish music. None. Every melodic instrument plays the melody or sits out, or plays simple backup lines that don't interfere with the melody.

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It's hard to imagine how anyone can make, or believe, such an absolute statement about any aspect of fiddling.

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Why, ever since Adam has been here he's been making absolute statements like that!
I'm beginning to think that's just the way he is.

Certainly provokes some <LIVELY> discussion, tho! (variety of different reactions...)

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

TomGlos - Posted - 01/08/2009:  03:00:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

If most people can recognize the tune in spite of the variation, then it's just a variation. If the difference is big enough that a lot of people might not recognize the tune if they only listened to that section, then it's improvisation- in effect, a new part has been composed for the tune.

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Very well said Michael, spot on, and I think that reconciles things nicely.

Tom

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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....