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ladymuse - Posted - 11/19/2008: 01:41:32
OK guys - been thinking/living with standard notation all my life - don't even think about it - (reading or writing) probably write music faster than standard english -
However, Scoffco's request for pentatonics in tab made me realize I haven't a clue as to fiddle tab, never saw any, and as a composer, that maybe I should familiarize myself with this -like a responsibility!
- because there are fiddlers out there who don't read music, as it were, and may not have access to the wonders of music or materials because of it - (or more horrible - may drop the fiddle for lack of needful tabs) (nor any disrespect to Ear People! LOL! I prefer ear!)
I am a complete newbie at this - I figured it out pretty quick, but have a standard staff (5 line) music program that doesn't do 4 lines - so bj suggested I use the 4 spaces - well, all right -.
(I have run into frustration with different systems (banjo) so what makes it easier? Lines or spaces?
Anyway, (see my current blog entry - you'll laugh) I have posted a version of a trad (from my old notes) of OldRaggedCoat (PDF) -
to the tabs in the learning section -
it shows up like sheet music, with both tab and standard notation, and chords. I don't have a tabwriter yet, so the numbers are right above the note heads, and I used regular noted rhythm - (banjo tabs with no 'downbeats' - rhythm indications drive me nuts - especially when you have never heard the tune) I also like being able to include both noted and tabbed version.
I did a simple MP3 for this (in my music/homepage) - it's just the simple melody - you can slur/ornament it as you will -
I would love to know what your opinions are, is there a standard way of doing this? and any pet peeves, so I can hone my skills -
Here's what majority of tab #s I've seen so far is based on: (halfsteps - they assume you know your fingering positions)
(think fretted fiddle = mandolin )
Jen
Edited by - ladymuse on 11/19/2008 16:06:19
carroll - Posted - 11/19/2008: 07:53:24
I thought it read just fine... I suppose if you used the lines for strings, you could reserve the bottom line for 5-string fiddles.
I think the double staff approach is really good .
The tab seems like it would be very helpful when alternate tunings are used.
The tab does not tell which finger to use. I would think that tab readers and beginners would find that very useful, especially when chromatic runs, position changes, or double stops are involved.
So maybe the numbers above the tab could be in a format that shows both. For example, an F# on E might be shown as 2:1 to indicate the 2nd "fret" and the 1st finger. Of course, there is only so much room on the line...
So, is there a common fiddle tab already in use? I've never seen it (I guess I'll look more closely at the "tab" section 
).
- Carroll
nallycat - Posted - 11/19/2008: 09:02:14
Go to Jim Burk's site, he is member the site is www.fiddlehub.com and you will see how tab for fiddles should be, in my opinion.
Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae
Dick Hauser - Posted - 11/19/2008: 09:25:18
When I played banjo, I only used tab. When I played guitar, I used notation a lot, but when I played higher up the neck, I often used tab. But when playing fiddle, I only use notation. In my case, I can better sense the "flow" of the notes better reading notation than I can tabulature.
When I have a problem, I often send an email to listmember Fiddlerdi and explain what I want to work on. She develops the notation and creates a CD where she records the music on the notation. She does a lot of teaching and playing, so the material I get is "top notch".
Basically, I pay the price of a lesson for a LOT of notation and material. Her material has helped me more than the local violin/fiddle instructors. Fiddlerdi has played in both classical and traditional music, has a degree in performing violin, and really seems to care about helping other fiddlers. I am considering quitting the local instructors and just using Fiddlerdi's material.
gulfguy
carroll - Posted - 11/19/2008: 12:45:20
quote:
Originally posted by nallycat
Go to Jim Burk's site, he is member the site is www.fiddlehub.com and you will see how tab for fiddles should be, in my opinion.
Jim Burke's tab system seems very good and complete and I think it would be very good for beginners on the fiddle and who cannot read music. Is it in wide spread use?
Unfortunately I couldn't follow his "next" links and I think I missed out on the more advanced discussion of his system. But I got the sense that as the tune gets more complex, the tab gets as complex as standard notation.
So it wasn't clear how values for long notes and common figures like triplets and dotted-8th/16th are handled. This seems to be the area where standard notation has the advantage, and what I like about Jen's two staff system.
It also wasn't clear how accidentals and position shifts are handled using Jim's system since he shows the finger and string, but not the location on the string (could be that this was demonstrated on a page I couldn't get at).
One nice aspect of Jen's system is that you can probably generate it with a common composing package like Finale.
- Carroll
ladymuse - Posted - 11/19/2008: 12:56:27
Yes. fiddlerDi rocks! : (grin) LOL!
I have emailed her to look at this -
Carroll- I was going nuts till I realized that the numbers refer to the half step positions - (think mandolin -with frets)
I think one is assumed to start out ~knowing~ chromatic fingerings-
and without frets, if you don't know or are thinking with your chromatic fingering positions- you're up the creek - for example:
D string (1/2 steps -think frets)
1=D# / Eb - first finger
2=E..............first finger
3=F natural-second finger
4=F# / Gb.....second finger
5=G...............third finger
6=G# / Ab.....fourth finger
Etc -
But if you aren't thinking with this, it sucks! (I know - it drove me nutty til I recognized/reoriented to it it)
Makes me appreciate standard notation even more - (Good old Guido d'Arezzo)
Personally, the 1, 2, 3, (5) fingers with sharps and flats when necessary made sense too - )
I have now checked out 6 different systems (fiddle tab) to date. All different - I have a headache!!! - LOL!
That's another reason I want to include (to me) simple standard notes - so someone has a reference point - and a simple MP3 (my music uploads)
I will look into this 2:1 bizness -but doing the tab was like calisthenics already - )and I will check out Burke's link.
Van of worms! Argh! LOL! - oops - can!
OK - Just checked out Burke's - pretty clear, but still alot is assumed -
(such as intuiting the rhythm - ) still good though
- but if I had 4 lines, I would prob do this - but I don't have a tabwriter -
only 5 lines (for computer use) I can't put #s on my staves, only noteheads - I'll play with that.
Edited by - ladymuse on 11/19/2008 13:36:18
fiddlepLuker - Posted - 11/19/2008: 14:16:12
I have historically been an all tab person with guitar, mandolin, reso, etc. I suppose this is why I went for "fiddle tab." However, a couple things came up: 1) I always wanted to learn to read music and violin seemed like a great time to start -a fresh start so to speak, 2) my youngest daughter kept kicking dad's back side about learning and started to educate poor old dad :)
I can now take the sheet music and tab-out a piece so tab is still a crutch to me until my music reading skills come up more to par. The problem is I do it the hard way -all by hand written form. I need to find a technology approach so I am all ears to suggestions.
Now I seem to be only comfortable with tab so long as it has the music there to help me with note timing (dotted, slurs, triplets, etc). Its funny that the fingering never did give me any problem -most likely from all my "fret days."
Now for the MIDI aspect..... you might just as well take my brain out and or cut off my ears. I can not relate to MIDI. I have tried and tried and tried.
...well I sure do appreciate everyone here on the FHO that share their knowledge. So, I am off to take a look at fiddlerDi masterpiece.
~fiddlepLuker
Edited by - fiddlepLuker on 11/19/2008 15:46:43
bsed - Posted - 11/19/2008: 14:20:15
D
0 1 2 3
A
0 1 2 3
This is the kind of tab I developed for my own use. I have tabbed out a D maj scale. I had to put the D & A fingerings on different lines because this word proc. program isn't too friendly to my tab & screws it up.
But I write out whole tunes this way. What I like about it is it only gives you the finger & string that you need at the moment you need it. You don't have to worry about lines & spaces. The big limitation is that you don't derive time values. And that's actually a good thing, because you really need to have a sound source of a tune handy. I developed this tab for students to help with their ear training (i.e. learning to play by ear), so I tell them not to get too dependent on reading the tab. All its supposed to do is to tell you where to put which finger, and when. I can also indicate bowings very easily, as well as many other musical devices.
Here is how I would write the A-part to Melvin Wine's Cold Frosty Morning (the recording is on my page):
G
0 2
D
0 1 3 3
sh
A
1 0
D
3 1 3 :|
As I said, this would all have been written on the same line in my notebook. The underlined fingerings are slurs. the sh below the G note (2nd line of fingerings) is short for shuffle, and indicates you to play a "long-short-short" Nashville-style shuffle.
Just call me Dwight.
Edited by - bsed on 11/19/2008 14:56:29
ladymuse - Posted - 11/19/2008: 14:50:42
LOL! (yeah - I have similiar shorthand if a tune comes thru my head or I hear it and want it, and don't have fid or manuscript handy)
I also just stick flats and sharps in with simple finger #s (and I notestem out the rhythm)
I tried assuming the viewpoint of someone out in the middle of nowhere with a computer only - no other reference really -
This pic below - (sorry for the roughness) is based on the majority of tabs I have seen so far - halfsteps (think Frets/mando) based on knowing basic fingering, ( & sharps/flats) and half steps -
Edited by - ladymuse on 11/19/2008 15:00:37
BanjoBrad - Posted - 11/19/2008: 14:55:16
To be honest with everybody, I've tried several versions of fiddle tab and have gotten confused with most of them. The only one that really made sense and was easy for me to use was the method Wayne Erbsen used in his "Old Time Fiddle for the Complete Ignoramus" book/CD. I read notation for fiddle (and guitar), but tab for banjo.
My preference for software is Tabledit, which will display or allow input in either tab or notation, or both and is a very complete program.
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fiddlepLuker - Posted - 11/19/2008: 15:05:59
For me the method that Wayne uses sort of threw me back. After a short regrouping I was shaking my head for making it harder than it was. I do like Wayne's overall approach for sure. Plus it's good for some history and chuckles!
~fiddlepLuker
jeffiddle - Posted - 11/19/2008: 15:38:40
I played mandolin before taking up the fiddle and had become familiar with mandolin tab and standard notation. When I started playing the fiddle, it seemed natural to think of fiddles as having invisible frets and the same mandolin tablature could then be used for either instrument without any major changes in thinking. Writing out a tune in tab can go very quickly, whether from notation, a recording, or from a tune in your head, and it gets easier the more you use it. TablEdit is a great tool to learn tunes with using mandolin tab, also, and I would highly recommend it.
carroll - Posted - 11/19/2008: 15:55:28
quote:
Originally posted by ladymuse
Carroll- I was going nuts till I realized that the numbers refer to the half step positions - (think mandolin -with frets)
I think one is assumed to start out ~knowing~ chromatic fingerings-
and without frets, if you don't know or are thinking with your chromatic fingering positions- you're up the creek - for example:
D string (1/2 steps -think frets)
1=D# / Eb - first finger
2=E..............first finger
3=F natural-second finger
4=F# / Gb.....second finger
5=G...............third finger
6=G# / Ab.....fourth finger
Etc -
Yeah, I'm with you on that. What I meant was that a beginner might not know the standard fingering, so who knows what finger they might use. I have met several beginners who used only 1 finger for all notes, for example. Arguably (arguing with myself - I am *so* disagreeable
), this doesn't matter.
What I meant by "2:1" was 2nd fret, 1st finger . Same as what you did but I tacked on the ":1". So on the A string that would be B nat, standard fingering. Just an embellishment (of questionable value).
In the end, I think simplicity is best so the reader doesn't spend too much time decoding. One way to simplicity is to make assumptions. In the case of standard notation, the writer assumes the reader knows how to map the notation to whatever instrument is at hand. A pretty powerful notion!
- Carroll
bj - Posted - 11/19/2008: 15:57:39
Wayne Erbsen's way of writing fiddle tab is pretty much "the standard". Anything else will generate confusion. Me, I find it confusing to try to follow anything written, though I can and I have with a bit of work. So time consuming for me that I don't bother. Easier just to listen and play along.
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ladymuse - Posted - 11/19/2008: 16:12:53
Well, the MP3 should help! Laugh!!!!
Man - fiddle tab as a subject and writing can curl your hair! -
Carroll - I realized that someone with no one around might have some "inventive fingerings" LOL!
I agree with you on the decoding bit - but I had to start somewhere! - I was digging me into a hole.
So I hope the pic helps someone - if they need a standard reference! -
Now to get ahold of an Erbsen book -
jen!
ChickenMan - Posted - 11/19/2008: 17:07:54
From what I gather here, fiddle tab is not standardized like most guitar tab is. IMO tab takes as much effort to learn and play along to as notation.
This coming from a guitar player who has always though that about tab. I only used tab with the guitar when my ears couldn't decide how something went note-for-note, and then, inevitably the tab wouldn't match the position I was playing in, or IMO was written by someone who did not recognize the most efficient way to play. When I picked up the fiddle, there was little out there besides notation, and as was said by Mr. Hauser, the notation seems to give ME a better idea of how a tune goes. In fact, after spending a little time with notation (practicing reading it), I find that I can often get the gist of a tune just by looking at it. Not perfectly like several sight readers I know, but the gist. I bought a book that has fiddle tunes in notation and tab (for mandolin players - as if they couldn't read notes if they wanted to) thinking it <tab> might be useful, but never even got to the tab because the notes seemed to give a better picture. In the end, I always let my ears do most of the work.
______________________________________
"Fiddling makes you forget" - my wife
Edited by - ChickenMan on 11/22/2008 17:29:58
nallycat - Posted - 11/19/2008: 18:54:13
If you need to print music sheets for tab go to www.blanksheetmusic.net Jeffiddle has the correct Idea. I didn't imagine the fret positions on the fiddle. I learned tab when I was using the fiddle fretter, just like any fretted instrument With tabs you are required to know the tune before you use tabs, it doesn't replace notation. go to www.fiddlehub.com and print out some tab and notation tunes that Jim Burks provides you will see the relationslip of tab to notation, also the book "beginning old-time fiddle" shows both notation and tab. Tab can show, slides, drones, gracenotes etc etc , in most cases easier then notation.
Beati illi qui in circulum circumeunt, fient enim magnae rotae
BanjoBrad - Posted - 11/19/2008: 19:03:38
Just to help the discussion (or fan the flames), I have uploaded part of a tune Wayne Erbsen teaches in his previously mentioned method.
As you can see, he provides the note names relative to the finger used (and positioned) on each string. He also provides the standard notation below the tab, which is a nice way to start learning to read music well enough for learning tunes from notation. I had an advantage, as I have read music since the 3rd grade (many, many years ago), and played classical guitar for 45 or so years.
You can see this in a bigger format by going to my "Fiddle Stuff" picture album on my home page here. Just click on the picture to enlarge it.
[EDIT: ARGHHH!!! I deleted a bunch of extra entries on the photo page and it took the original upload - so, no tab! Sorry!]
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Brad
"I''ll tune up my fiddle, and rosin my bow, to make myself welcome wherever I go." Tommy Jarrell - Drunken Hiccoughs
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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ezFolk Page
Tucson Old Time Music Circle Home Page
Tucson Old Time Music Circle on ezFolk Page
Edited by - BanjoBrad on 11/22/2008 20:19:36
mikey - Posted - 11/19/2008: 20:22:18
Tab is ok if you only play one instrument and never need to share your music with a buddy on another instrument. Problem being is that no two tabs are alike and the only thing that is universal is standard notation. I have a few beginners hanging around and I'll show them how to transpose, but I won't do it for them. By the time they figure it out, they can already read it in standard notation... Soooo.... problem solved.
MIKEY
Always Remember: You are Special and Unique...Just like Everyone Else
bj - Posted - 11/20/2008: 18:10:21
quote:
With tabs you are required to know the tune before you use tabs, it doesn't replace notation.
This isn't true with Erbsen's tab. You can play a song you've never heard before. It may take a bit of effort to suss out the first time or two, but it isn't hard.
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Motto for the Week- If something isn''t working, why are you still doing it?
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ladymuse - Posted - 11/20/2008: 22:52:05
Hey - just got home from work - have to finish reading this, but both fiddlepogo and fiddlerfaddler hear boating up Sandy - the funny thing is, I shorthanded this tune in an old manu book - (years ago - overheard from a banjo player, who said it was Old Coat of ragged coat - I forgot about it in intervening years, and then heard it on BHO - Old ragged Coat, so went back to find it cause it was familiar -
So I went into a search on Boating up Sandy - and Fer Gawd's sake - it's the same tune, different key, and small fiddler poetic license here - so I will post the link (PDF-manuscript)
http://www.abbamoses.com/fiddledo/b...gupsandy.pdf
And stick it in the tabs as Boating up sandy - (if it's not already there)
You know what amazes me - is this pass down/around migration of tunes - maybe the title gets lost or changed - but the tune retains it's integrity - LOL!
Jen
jen!
ladymuse - Posted - 11/20/2008: 23:29:00
I love these posted examples - and I must admit to rolling over laughing at the moment - So far I have checked out 16 'styles" of TAB fpr fiddles - some are guite zany - especially the one of how to play a tune on one string only (yes. up the fingerboard we go -
probably not a bad thing to drill, but I honestly don't think I'll be doing it anytime soon (Quincy Dillon's high D and the like are my major stretch - )
Here's another tab program Brought to you Via Chickenman - (my Blog)
"...There is an awesome program called Musedit that will do all sorts of transcribing and whatnot. It will make whatever kind of tab you want, translate ABC format into notation or tab, translate midi to notes etc...and you can type it in many formats.
As a guitar player, I 'get' tab especially for guitar players, but I have always felt for the most part tab was as difficult as notation to learn/read and why not learn the notes and be more flexible than tab's "put this finger here" way of notating? Still I use the tabs for my bandmates, so I understand the thinking involved. I vote for on the lines.
I also (personally) vote for standard notation -more of the world's your oyster - although alternative tunings might benefit)
I know Banjo-wise, I love the simplicity Of Dan Levenson and Wayne Erbsen.s tab - (and many thanks to Dan because I refused to have anything to do with any tab for 3 years - it literally spun my brain - but because of him I got over it - thus welcoming in the Banjo world)
With fiddle, if you are tune hungry and get a tune book, the major ones with tons of tunes are all in standard notation -
but hey! I am learning a lot from a subject I knew nothing about and wouldn't even consider before!!!
Edited by - ladymuse on 11/20/2008 23:38:35
ladymuse - Posted - 11/20/2008: 23:46:21
I will also say this - with the number of tab programs, (and the number of viewers required) I am all for PDF - (pdfcreator is a free download, and so is pdfprimo (or primopdf) - I have them both -
If you are doing tab/music as computerized -
you can save your tab in your page format, but as the pdf shows up as a "printer" you can "save as" a pdf - and when posted, comes out as sheet music for looking at or printing - No other decoding/viewer required -
I know some older computers (or maybe dial up) may have trouble posting (or a long time getting the PDF to show up) But this seems (for me) the easiest way to ~get~ music - and it prints out fine....
jen!
Edited by - ladymuse on 11/20/2008 23:49:06
bj - Posted - 11/21/2008: 07:14:44
Just thought y'all might find this interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTb7kwqlL4I
I believe the tab he's using comes out of Elan Chalford's book entitled 43 Fiddle Tunes In Tab. It's almost identical to Erbsen's tab, except Chalford used a five line staff and used the spaces to signify the fiddle strings. Most else is the same.
Jen, I haven't forgotten about you. I dislocated my thumb yesterday and though it's now relocated and somewhat better, I have to prioritize and limit what I'm doing since I get sore. Hopefully today I'll get this done.
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Motto for the Week- If something isn''t working, why are you still doing it?
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
ladymuse - Posted - 11/21/2008: 16:20:00
Hey - take your time -!!!!
Not fun, and hope it pops in/ heals off quickly - (it's amazing how much one uses their thumb - specially when you have to think about it!)
Jen
jen!
ladymuse - Posted - 11/21/2008: 21:45:00
OH my gawd BJ! That is pro work in translation -- (YOURS!)
Way above and beyond just "here's a sample" to study -
Erbsen surprised me I will have to study it after I rotate it -
But Chalford's is exquiste - (because I have finally gotten the # systems down tabwise)
I will be emailing ya - wow! Thank you for delivery well over the expected!
(Abundance in quality and professionalism is always warmly recognized!!)
Jen
jen!
bj - Posted - 11/22/2008: 21:29:48
I thought you'd prefer the Chalford. Just so much easier to read. ;-)
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Motto for the Week- If something isn''t working, why are you still doing it?
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
bj - Posted - 11/23/2008: 10:07:00
Jen, JessicaRose posted this link for another reason on another thread (mando fingerboard) and I looked and realized you might find this very useful. It's got a LOT of links to Mando Tab . . . which can be easily used and/or altered to be fiddle tab!
http://mandolinformation.blogspot.c...t-board.html
^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Motto for the Week- If something isn''t working, why are you still doing it?
Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com
My inspiration:
http://www.pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237
Edited by - bj on 11/23/2008 10:07:35
ladymuse - Posted - 11/24/2008: 17:18:54
Hey! want to thank all of you for chiming in and helping me great a grasp on all the different ways and means - (specially with the posted samples when I didn't have it at my fingertips - (and all the different syles to compare!(Geesh!) I am also glad to know there ARE a lot of tabbers out there who are willing to tab first! re reguests) and are more set up for it currently -
so I an continuing to look at all this data -
Jen
-
jen!
curlyrayfan - Posted - 11/28/2008: 18:27:00
I'm trying to rely on my ear a whole lot more...but I'm a notation reader. Everytime I've ever attempted to read fiddle tab, I didn't like it. But somebody on the other page said something about fingering half steps. When I think of fiddle tab this is wat I see.
On the D string: ( the letter/number is what appears on the line or space)
D# = L1
E = 1
F = L2
F# = 2
G = 3
G# = 3
A = 4
John 3:16
ladymuse - Posted - 12/16/2008: 23:35:32
Bob !
- I totally agree with you! - then no one has an excuse not to be adventurous! (and the chords too)
(and the banjo tab!) Grin!
jen!
