theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/07/2015:  14:16:53

Hello all,

I wanted to share something for the newbie fiddlers that helped me out when I first started out: Body Mapping.

Body Mapping - an off-shoot of the Alexander Technique - corrects anatomical misconceptions in the brain that impair playing. (For example, where does the arm really begin? Where specifically are the joints of the wrist? etc.) This work really helped me increase speed, accuracy, and intonation, and helped me fix a repetitive stress injury. 

I made a video to help my students understand what Body Mapping is, so I share it with you below. I welcome comments on the benefits of Body Mapping for fiddlers. 

Regards

VIDEO: What is Body Mapping? (click to view)

abinigia - Posted - 10/07/2015:  14:42:51

This has been discussed here before. This post seems like an advertisement. It probably belongs in the swap/shop forum. I also think the claims are dubious.

Edited by - abinigia on 10/07/2015 14:48:12

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/07/2015:  14:49:22

Brilliant. Good explanation.

Nope, not an advertisement. Just explains and advocates the Alexander Technique. Nothing to sell.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 10/07/2015 14:51:45

abinigia - Posted - 10/07/2015:  15:39:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

 

Brilliant. Good explanation.

Nope, not an advertisement. Just explains and advocates the Alexander Technique. Nothing to sell.

---

Okay, if you say so. I didn't make it through the video because it had a commercial vibe to me, and I do consider it likely pseudo science. But I will take the time to view the rest of it. Maybe there's something for me to learn there...

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/07/2015:  16:07:02

Yes - Body Mapping is worth the time if you are struggling on the fiddle, which I was, and am! But the concepts have really made the fiddle a lot easier to play. As I said, I think it's very useful for beginners, especially, to have a sense of the basic anatomy that goes into fiddling. 

(See BodyMap.org for the scientific explanation.)

Ways it has helped me so far:

1. Having a complete understanding that the collarbone is part of the arm structure assists in two ways: first, it liberates our bowing arm in movement, and allows for full extension. Second, forward and backward movement of the collarbone assists in positioning our bowing arm in a more advantageous position under the instrument. 

2. Correct mapping of the wrist, as the video explains, allows for much more freedom in the right hand because we are allowing the joints to move as they were designed to do. 

3. Isolating the correct joints INSIDE the palm allow accuracy of left hand articulation.Movement at finger joint three is a must for right hand flexibility. 

4. Aligning the elbow with the pinky in pronating and suppinating prevents the wrist from ulnar deviation, a known cause of repetitive stress injuries. 

5. Learning to stand and sit in balance promotes freedom of back muscles. Since they are not working overtime to support the weight of our heads, they are free to support the arms, which is their primary function. The head is heavy! One of my teachers has a 10-pound bowling ball in her studio. The first thing she does is hand you the ball, and let you hold it to give you a sens of how heavy the head actually is!

Now, I say this all as an intermediate player who is no master.  I have so much to learn. Alas, there's only so many hours in a day, and so many instruments to learn. The fiddle could be a full-time job.  I just wish I knew all of this valuable information when I started. I was a mess!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/07/2015:  16:45:18

I sat through some Alexander Technique workshops and exercises, and they covered the concept of Body Mapping a little, they are pretty interesting.

You mention that you are only an intermediate, on fiddle; but you played other instruments. This is applicable for most every instrument. IIRC when it started gaining popularity, it wasn't so much beginners, but at a lot of very experienced players, noticing pains (as you mention in the video).

I believe it's not just useful for preventing pain, but useful for better playing, more power, speed and subtle control. A typical approach that folks use is the idea of building muscles, in kind of a brute strength way, force and repetition, to gain an aspect like speed; but really they are using the joints, muscles in an inefficient manner, or perhaps wrong ones; which then causes struggles with performance.  I believe that the body mapping is meant to address that. Fiddle, banjo, guitar, piano, mando.. all have those issues.

BTW, I enjoyed the video - but I can see abingia's point - it does kind of seem like infomercial quality to it.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 10/07/2015 16:48:40

fujers - Posted - 10/07/2015:  20:29:41

Do what? I'm coming off my being secluded in and another forum. Body Mapping is a bunch of crap.

Do you think that Vasser Clements, Bobby Hicks, Scotty Stoneman and a whole bunch of others knew what Body Mapping was? I don't think so. They were doing good to spell never less to know the term.

What ever happened to just picking up the fiddle and play It like other people do.

You think that Mark O'Conner, Stuart Duncan, Aubrey Hanie and myself cares about this term' I don't think so we just pick up the fiddle and play.

If you are putting time into this you are loosing time practicing. Do yourself a favor practice and don't think about how you play better playing will come in time. Study your scales and runs you will be better off than studying Body Mapping. Jerry

vibratingstring - Posted - 10/07/2015:  20:29:45

Makes lost of sense to me.   The more effort I put into playing the fiddle....(the more concentration I put into it), the worse I seem to play.   And I find my self need to stop to release tension that has built up in my neck, shoulders, fingers and wrist.

I will be thinking about this technique and body mapping.    

Larry

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/07/2015:  21:42:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

Do what? I'm coming off my being secluded in and another forum.

Body Mapping is a bunch of crap.



 

---

And I just unlocked my account after I read this.....

Look at my new profile picture...I can not believe what you just wrote Jerry....!?

And you have the gall to put yourself in the same league as Mark O'Connor and Stuart Duncan.....!?

I would wager they are having pain issues, I know you are with your hands cramping up ....

Do your self a favour and read up on Alexander Technique before you make any comment about it....!

cactig - Posted - 10/07/2015:  22:28:43

Body mapping sounds interesting. Can you give any more specifics for fiddlers?

There is a book called 'What Every Violinist Needs to Know About the Body' by Jennifer Johnson that is supposed to be about body mapping for violinists. I just recently saw it recommended on the following blog and was thinking about checking it out.

musicianshealthcollective.com/...-jaw-rest

Are you familiar with the book? Do you recommend it?

Thanks.

MikeM70 - Posted - 10/08/2015:  01:28:27

good video thanks. Many years ago I started suffering sharp stabbing pains on my forehead and numbness on my face. went to my doc who very quickly diagnosed a posture problem with my neck when sitting (I was working long hours at a computer at the time) and gave me some exercises he called the poor man's alexander technique (I'd never heard of it before then) and straight away the things I was suffering went away. I still do those exercises to this day, so I'm a believer. Lots of people play instruments just fine so it's not the instrument per se that's the problem, so if you are suffering pains etc. when playing a look at your posture and so on is very worthwhile.

Edited by - MikeM70 on 10/08/2015 01:30:38

fujers - Posted - 10/08/2015:  03:20:06

Well Henry, This is crap like I said. Why don't you play fiddle like everyone else does THEY JUST PLAY. As far as putting myself in a position as Mark O'Conner or Stuart Duncan I think I'm closer than you'll ever be to there playing do I need to prove it. This is all we need to give another fiddler something to think about when all they have to do is just pick up the thing and play. Your new picture looks like "What Key Did You Say" Go back to bed. Jerry

Edited by - fujers on 10/08/2015 03:34:10

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/08/2015:  04:19:50

I'll just ignore Jerry. If his opinion is that this is "crap," then he could respectfully bow out of the conversation, or perhaps start another thread enlightening us with his explanations of such. 

Cactig - - that is a great book, albeit dense. It literally tells you everything a violinist needs to know about the body! In fact, I took a number of lessons with Jennifer Johnson, who is an amazing teacher. She does Skype. I'd highly recommend them.

I think a better place to start is the DVD, "Move Well, Avoid Injury." It's on Amazon. It's really the body mapping textbook, and is perfect for visual learners like me. You can see some clips on YouTube. youtube.com/watch?v=Qlp7vpq_ZwI

Dick Hauser - Posted - 10/08/2015:  07:09:26

I was just thinking about something along those lines.  Golf instructors have the student swing at the golf ball.  An electronic/mechanical device tracks and records all the persons body movement while swing at the golf ball.  Then, the instructor and student view the recorded video and the instructor identifies problem areas and instructs the student as to what they should do to correct the problem(s).  As far as medicine and technology goes, sports are way ahead of everything else.  In fact, professional musicians go to sport medicine clinics for help.  Some luthiers who can afford it use expensive electronic equipment to tune the tops of the instruments they build.  I wonder if any professional violinists/fiddlers are using these devices.  Probably not.  Cost and resistance to change could be factors.

It it wasn't prohibitively expense I would like to have this done for me.  Show me where my problems are, and what I should do to correct them.  Beats looking in a mirror.

amwildman - Posted - 10/08/2015:  07:42:53

Luthiers who tune their plates electronically don't build better fiddles. It merely helps with consistency. In many ways it is a pseudo science. Body mechanics are much more black and white than fiddle tone and response.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 10/08/2015:  07:57:35

improvingmusician - Did she use the technique in her teaching ?

I will check it out. Younger and middle aged fiddlers should realize that physical problems become much greater as one ages. Correct physical problems are quickly as possible.

Fujers - Mark O'Connor did not "just play". He would skip school and spend time at Benny Thommason's house learning as much as he could. He attributes much of his success to Benny T. All those players success wasn't just from playing. Natural talent counts. In addition, experienced fiddlers lean over backward to help talented young fiddlers.

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/08/2015:  08:08:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

improvingmusician - Did she use the technique in her teaching ?

---

Yes, Dick. I sought her out after reading her book, and wanted some help mapping because I was in pain. She was able to work very well with the technique via Skype. I also took several in person lessons with a local Body Mapping teacher, and I must say in person is better. But I learned a lot from her via Skype. 

Dick Hauser - Posted - 10/08/2015:  11:40:11

armwildman - different opinions I guess. I do know that the sensitivity of these instruments exceeds the hearing abilities of humans. A violinist/physicist at a major university graduates "white" violins using multi million dollar sound equipment. He sells the violins at cost to graduate level students. The quality of sound compares well to that of instruments costing tens of thousands of dollars. The sound equipment is used for measurement purposes. Graduation is done by hand.

I have seen pictures of luthiers using some type of metal filings to study sound patterns in a piece of wood which will become the top/back of a fiddles. So in that cases, like the expensive machine, the human ear isn't use to make certain determinations needed when graduating tops.

He does this to help violinists. He feels that the playing skills of graduate level violinists quite often exceeds their ability to buy an instrument that allows them to more fully use their playing skills. The lead violinist for the Chicago symphony played her violin, then a re-graduated "white" violin. They both sounded wonderful.

Hopefully member "woodwiz" will offer information on the use of this equipment when graduating a fiddle/violin.

fujers - Posted - 10/08/2015:  12:23:57

Dick, Mark also took lessons from Stefan. He took lessons from a lot of people and I'm sure that mapping was not in the curriculum.

Long before this issue ever came up Mark had already established himself as a fiddle player so did Stuart and others.

Now, what is wrong learning the old fashioned way. Just pick the thing up and play it

By the time you figure out mapping I would have practiced me about three tunes...learned them put my fiddle away for the night and went to bed.

I play the old fashioned way....I just pick up the thing and play you should try it. I played that one the old fashioned way. Jerry

Wagon Hoe

MikeM70 - Posted - 10/08/2015:  12:27:25

hmm, in the video the OP said he couldn't just "pick up and play" as it was causing him pain, body mapping has allowed him to now play, it really is that simple. I am struggling to see how you don't understand this. I think what you've done is taken a position based on not understanding what the OP is saying and now your ego won't let you back down.

timmyc - Posted - 10/08/2015:  12:39:51

For what it's worth...I can second the recommendation of the DVD "Move Well, Avoid Injury". It methodically covers all of the main areas and motions of the body and in particular it describes common errors that people make in their mental models they have of how their bodies actually work. The DVD refers to our mental models of how our bodies work as "body maps". According to the DVD, many people have mis-mapped at least some aspects of their body. The result is that we can mindlessly make poor choices about how we move and hold our bodies.

The DVD attempts to arm you with a good understanding of how bones, muscles, tendons, organs, etc fit together and move relative to each other. It can help you unlearn and prevent bad habits of movement which can lead to chronic strain and injury. These bad habits ultimately come from trying to do impossible things by using force and ignoring pain -- things like trying to bend where there is no actual joint, or trying to hold your body in positions that create unnecessary stress.

I think the DVD aligns well with Alexander Technique. As I understand it, the Alexander Technique is fundamentally about eliminating unnecessary exertion. In the Alexander Technique, focus is place on discovering ways in which you are "endgaming", which means ignoring the immediate sensory experience of what you are doing (and the pain and suffering you are bringing on yourself) because you are only thinking about the end result you are trying to attain. The Alexander Technique works on the skill of intentionally deactivating problematic muscle usages once you have clarity about how you could be using your body without strain. And pursuant to this I think the DVD provides a good physiological perspective on what actually happens in your body when you move well versus badly.

I learned a lot and have been able to apply it to my musical playing and to my life at large.

vibratingstring - Posted - 10/08/2015:  12:42:01

We all body map, whether we are aware of it or not, as I see it    We all do it to different levels.   Afterall, we don't bow the fiddle holding the bow with our teeth.  Our knowledge of the parts of our bodies (body mapping) tells us that would not be efficient or even possible.   We have a "map" of what parts are good for what.  That's a crude level of mapping, but a map nevertheless.

Watching the tape "Twelve things your right hand should know" opened up new avenues of thought on the parts of my bowing arm and what the parts are doing.   Mapping!  

Larry

fujers - Posted - 10/08/2015:  12:52:43

I guess I just don't understand and it has nothing to do ego Mike. What was he trying to learn that gave him pain. I never experienced pain while I play.

Was he holding his fiddle wrong in the first place I can see how that would be painful I guess. With mapping does it show how to hold a fiddle correctly my knowledge I can only see several ways to hold a fiddle.

Tim said this:

For what it's worth...I can second the recommendation of the DVD "Move Well, Avoid Injury". It methodically covers all of the main areas and motions of the body and in particular it describes common errors that people make in their mental models they have of how their bodies actually work. The DVD refers to our mental models of how our bodies work as "body maps". According to the DVD, many people have mis-mapped at least some aspects of their body. The result is that we can mindlessly make poor choices about how we move and hold our bodies.

The DVD attempts to arm you with a good understanding of how bones, muscles, tendons, organs, etc fit together and move relative to each other. It can help you unlearn and prevent bad habits of movement which can lead to chronic strain and injury. These bad habits ultimately come from trying to do impossible things by using force and ignoring pain -- things like trying to bend where there is no actual joint, or trying to hold your body in positions that create unnecessary stress.

I think the DVD aligns well with Alexander Technique. As I understand it, the Alexander Technique is fundamentally about eliminating unnecessary exertion. In the Alexander Technique, focus is place on discovering ways in which you are "endgaming", which means ignoring the immediate sensory experience of what you are doing (and the pain and suffering you are bringing on yourself) because you are only thinking about the end result you are trying to attain. The Alexander Technique works on the skill of intentionally deactivating problematic muscle usages once you have clarity about how you could be using your body without strain. And pursuant to this I think the DVD provides a good physiological perspective on what actually happens in your body when you move well versus badly.

I learned a lot and have been able to apply it to my musical playing and to my life at large.

Never before in my life have I ever experienced pain before except hitting bad notes and that's painful enough. Is there something I'm not getting. Tell me I'm all ears. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 10/08/2015:  12:57:21

Oh I see Larry. Yes I guess we do map in our own way. I never thought about that but we don't for some reason know that we are mapping I guess.

I mean I never knew that I was mapping this new terms just throws me off. Thank you. I understand now. Jerry

timmyc - Posted - 10/08/2015:  13:06:07

Well I will just put this out there...I have found that learning more about body mapping and the like to be useful, because I have experienced pains and tensions in numerous parts of my body, and believe they are at least partially attributable to fiddling:

- Neck

- Shoulders

- Arms

- Back

- Hands

- Fingers

- Wrists

- Jaw

- Face

- Abdomen

- Chest

- Legs

- Feet

- Toes

And of course, ears :-)

So for myself, more information about this topic is a good thing. But if you are blessedly free of any bad physical habits and associated pain when you fiddle, count yourself lucky that you don't "need" this information. It is still interesting though, perhaps...?

MikeM70 - Posted - 10/08/2015:  13:11:40

I think this is fascinating, I know several musicians who've either had to give up playing or have had to have surgery to keep playing as they haven't understood about things like body mapping.

fujers - Posted - 10/08/2015:  13:12:37

Good lord Tim. Maybe you should not be playing fiddle if it gives you pain in your toes. Man the only pain I get is from bad notes...but those bad notes are not bad if you play them twice and it depends on what your next note will be

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/08/2015:  13:19:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

I guess I just don't understand and it has nothing to do ego Mike. What was he trying to learn that gave him pain. I never experienced pain while I play.

Was he holding his fiddle wrong in the first place I can see how that would be painful I guess. With mapping does it show how to hold a fiddle correctly my knowledge I can only see several ways to hold a fiddle.



Never before in my life have I ever experienced pain before except hitting bad notes and that's painful enough. Is there something I'm not getting. Tell me I'm all ears. Jerry

---

In my daily and professional life, I seek first to understand, and THEN make judgments. "Body Mapping is a bunch of crap" is a judgment based upon something which you clearly do not understand. If we understand FIRST, it can be an informed discussion with individuals who all have the same goal: to be better fiddlers. 

fujers - Posted - 10/08/2015:  13:21:42

You're right. But I don't understand why you have these issues. Can you explaine

Lee M - Posted - 10/08/2015:  13:27:00

Jerry, in my real life I served as a professional Massage Therapist for 25 years....full time.. I learned that when a person stubs a toe, their entire body limps.....Tension in one area can easily cause tension in seemingly unrelated areas... (dang... I thought I'd retired)... 

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/08/2015:  13:33:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by timmyc

But if you are blessedly free of any bad physical habits and associated pain when you fiddle, count yourself lucky that you don't "need" this information. It is still interesting though, perhaps...?

---

Excellent point, Tim. Some of us are blessed with a higher level of kinesthetic intelligence than others. My brother, for instance, throws the most amazing frisbee I have ever seen, and moves with a natural, carefree grace. I have an innate music aptitude that he is lacking. We all have multiple intelligences, and each one has an innate potential that is either developed or not developed. Using the body is a stress-free way never came easy for me. 

Body Mapping was like the owner's manual to my body. I didn't realize I needed it until my misuse had caught up with me. I'm lucky in that I didn't suffer permanent damage. 

fujers - Posted - 10/08/2015:  13:36:31

I understand that Lee I've stubbed my toes a few times and you have adjust to the new way of walking. I guess what I really don't understand is why he got pain in the first place.

Was he holding his fiddle wrong or something....why does he experience pain. Just because I never did doesn't mean that someone else won't. I think Larry cleared it up for me. Jerry

fujers - Posted - 10/08/2015:  13:47:52

T.I.M, I can see your point you said


Body Mapping was like the owner's manual to my body. I didn't realize I needed it until my misuse had caught up with me. I'm lucky in that I didn't suffer permanent damage.

Sometimes and all of us do this we are not sure of how things work and I'm one of them. Knowing how your body re acts to new things can cause you pain in time.

Whether it's holding a fiddle or playing guitar it's all the same you have to adjust to this and it takes time. I think by knowing a little bit about body mapping could be good for you I never tried it myself because I don't have those issues. I wish you the best in your endeavors. Jerry

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/08/2015:  14:07:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

But I don't understand why you have these issues.

---

You know why, you must remember you told me you are taking medication for your cramping hands.....

fujers - Posted - 10/08/2015:  14:22:43

Me taking meds for my hands has nothing to do with this discussion Henry. I think they are own to something I didn't understand. The issues I have with cramping is different than what this man is experiencing. I don't fully understand the why's and why nots he has these problems but they do exist. Body Mapping is interesting and I suppose we use it and not even know it.

I said before I never had these issues but some people do and I can fully understand that. I wished him the best in endeavors and I mean it.

Now is there anything else you want to say or are we done. Jerry

timmyc - Posted - 10/08/2015:  14:56:07

I am sharing information here with the hope that it might be of help to somebody who is dealing with pain and strain issues.

I am sorry if I was unclear when I talked about pain in various parts of my body being fiddle related. It is not as if I am playing the fiddle directly with my toes and thus making them sore. But through learning and observation I have come to understand more and more that if I have tension in, for example, my jaw, that this is due to muscular exertion, and since the body is a highly interconnected and interactive system, tension/pain/strain in one area is very likely related to more of the same elsewhere. Again, if you are free of such issues in your own body and fiddle playing, count yourself lucky.

cactig - Posted - 10/09/2015:  08:21:00

T.I.M., thanks so much for recommending that DVD, Move Well, Avoid Injury. There are 7 sample clips from it here: movewellavoidinjury.com/

A lot to chew on!

The one on "hands" was especially mind-blowing to me. I think it's going to help my fiddle playing by giving me more range of motion than I thought I had, since now I have a new "hand map." I didn't realize that the thumb has three joints!

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/09/2015:  09:13:52

Yes, Cactig....I had no idea I had 3 joints in my thumb either! This has really helped with my piano playing, as well. Glad it helped, and I hope you enjoy the DVD!

abinigia - Posted - 10/09/2015:  11:40:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by MikeM70

 

I think this is fascinating, I know several musicians who've either had to give up playing or have had to have surgery to keep playing as they haven't understood about things like body mapping.

---

Body mapping is nothing the average person needs. It seems harmless enough, but it's an unnecessary diversion. The idea that the average person must intellectualize the structure of the body in order to use it correctly makes no sense to me. It does make sense that people with injuries sometimes need physical therapy to retrain their body to function correctly again, but that's all. I seriously doubt the given example that the reason people slouch is because they don't know that their shoulder bone isn't resting on their rib cage. Presumably the human race evolved without needing that explicit knowledge. So I don't think learning good posture for playing the fiddle should need alternative therapies and buzzwords like "body mapping".

I am reminded that many years ago I made repeated attempts to start learning the fiddle and had to stop each time because I developed pain in my neck that then wouldn't go away for weeks. I finally got a shoulder rest. Problem solved.

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/09/2015:  12:30:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by abinigia

Body mapping is nothing the average person needs. 

You state your opinions as if they are facts. I am an average person, and lessons in Body Mapping have helped me 1) recover from an injury, 2) play all of my instruments with better technique, ease, and freedom, and 3) move with much more freedom, and perform everyday activities without pain.

It seems harmless enough, but it's an unnecessary diversion. The idea that the average person must intellectualize the structure of the body in order to use it correctly makes no sense to me.

Well, some don't, but some clearly do. You are making generalizations about other people based on your own relationship with your body. If you don't need this stuff, God bless ya!

 

 I seriously doubt the given example that the reason people slouch is because they don't know that their shoulder bone isn't resting on their rib cage. 

Body Mapping discusses the concept of standing and sitting in "balance" with the natural weight deliver from our AO joint down to our feet.  I'm assuming you watched a snippet of a video, so you are uninformed about the pedagogical methods Body Mapping practitioners discuss.  

Presumably the human race evolved without needing that explicit knowledge. So I don't think learning good posture for playing the fiddle should need alternative therapies and buzzwords like "body mapping".

Well, some might say we have devolved in recent years. Alexander Technique and Body Mapping are not "buzzwords" as you characterize them, but very useful tools to assist in using our bodies most efficiently. 

abinigia - Posted - 10/09/2015:  13:37:24

quote:

---

 

Well, some might say we have devolved in recent years. Alexander Technique and Body Mapping are not "buzzwords" as you characterize them, but very useful tools to assist in using our bodies most efficiently. 

---

I don't mean to say the concept or the words themselves are buzzwords. I meant I think they are being used that way. I have a close friend who has suffered a brain tumor. Fortunately (in some ways) the pressure of the tumor damaged the area of the brain responsible for her motor skills but left her mind intact. In her recovery she is indeed using therapy that involves body mapping to train her brain to move her leg and hand on her right side the way they used to move. She says she literally is re-training her brain.

But that illustrates my point that what she is doing is for overcoming a deficit, so she can walk and play bass again. You're right that I am making a judgment based on looking at some of the material, not all of it. It is my opinion based on what I have seen. Whether this particular system works or not may depend on the fact that someone trying it is giving special attention to a particular issue with their body, which causes some improvement. But it might not be the system itself responsible for the improvement - one may see improvement simply by expecting it. Paying attention to your body is good.

Anyway, I am glad you are seeing improvements. My mind isn't closed. It's an interesting topic.

Edited by - abinigia on 10/09/2015 13:39:57

boxbow - Posted - 10/09/2015:  14:30:27

I think we all know that playing our fiddles requires a lot of different skills, including the physical ones.  I find that the correct visualization technique can make many physical skills more manageable, and this has been true for fiddling.  But not everybody visualizes the same things in the same way, or even needs to visualize at all. 

I'm not going to go into body mapping.  Years of yoga and hard, physical work using my hands have taught me a lot about how I learn physical skills.  When I've encountered anything to do with body mapping, it provides the occasional "aha!  Cool! moment, but nothing really innovative for me.

I learned about the third thumb joint while climbing cracks in granite at Joshua Tree National Monument and in the sandstone outside of Moab.  Amazing how much that joint influences any hand motion.  I never really thought about the joint after figuring out how to do what I needed at the time, which was to stay put despite gravity's best efforts.  Then, some while back, somebody posted here about body mapping and that particular thumb joint.

So, I don't know about body mapping, but I'm a huge fan of better visualization for honing skills.

fujers - Posted - 10/09/2015:  17:16:55

Brian, He may be on to something body mapping. But these are things that most of use don't experience. I mean just because I've never had any pain issues doesn't mean you won't. I really don't think it's something you should be concerned with. Besides if it hurts you find why and fix the problem. But most of use don't have an issue with pain. He must have done something very wrong to have this issue. Body Mapping is interesting though but I don't need it. Jerry

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/09/2015:  17:29:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

He may be on to something body mapping.

---

Of course he is...!? But it is nothing new, just a new term...''Body Mapping''.

I read about this in the early 70's in a book by Herbert Whone.

The first chapter is called...''Feeling Awareness in the Body''...

Heard of him..? Maybe you could have benefited when you first began fiddling....?

fujers - Posted - 10/09/2015:  17:54:08

What do mean Henry. I could have benefitted for why. I don't have problems with pain other than my hands cramping and that's because of my age.

I am sick and tied of you replying to my every post with your negatively. If I say ying you say yang. Why do you do that? I don't understand. Jerry

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/09/2015:  17:55:53

Henry, you're right. This is not a new concept. Internal representation...body mapping...

Do you know the name of that book?

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/09/2015:  18:43:05

Sorry Jerry, I did not realize I was being negative..You just post stuff that I need to make a reply..I don't do it to your every post..? But I do reply to other's posts also....?

I said you may have benefited because I recall you saying somewhere on FHO that you did not sound to good when you first started playing fiddle. And I could not relate to that because I was playing pretty good when I first began playing fiddle in the early 70's.... 

Sorry if I annoyed you with my comments....

The book is called ''The Simplicity Of Playing The Violin'' by Herbert Whone. Fascinating title, and I read it from cover to cover studying every concept in detail until I grasped it. And I still have it on my book shelf........

Edited by - fiddlebut on 10/09/2015 18:45:35

fujers - Posted - 10/09/2015:  19:06:07

Thats ok Henry I understand. But didn't you sound like crap when you first started playing. I used to play it like I played guitar you know bending the strings for vibrato. I sounded so bad I went to practice under a bridge so I would disturb anyone. Now I come from a musical family my father wrote and recorded even my mother played but they couldn't put up with me playing fiddle.

In time I figured it out and I'm still trying to figure it out. I told you once I had a stroke and it took my ability's away well that's true. I had to re learn whatever fiddling I do now and that wasn't easy

So the tunes you hear me play know is the new me. I mostly write my own stuff because I forget how to play fiddle tunes not really forget I remember them to some degree but I can't seem to get past the 2 bar opening my left hand witch is my bowing arm and my other hand doesn't respond. But when I make up a tune I can play it all day. Weird isn't it

A stroke is a very offensive and could be deadly thing. I had another one last May but the damages are minimal. I hope you are taking good care of yourself. You are getting older Henry .Jerry

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/09/2015:  19:18:53

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

 

 But didn't you sound like crap when you first started playing.

 

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No, I did not sound like crap....This is what I am trying to tell you...I sounded pretty good, because I already knew how to play loads of fiddle tunes from playing mando, I could read music very well, and I studied that book I just mentioned, and many others. So all I needed to do was learn how to hold the fiddle and bow...and that did not take very long at all.... 

Edited by - fiddlebut on 10/09/2015 19:22:38