fujers - Posted - 10/09/2015:  19:26:18

I don't know if you got by the sound off forum or not. Not to many people visit there. But listen to this. Now I only played it once for effect I know I need a lot of work on it and I'll make it right. It's call Wagon Hoe

Wagon Hoe

fujers - Posted - 10/09/2015:  19:49:25

I'm going to get off this thread now. We may be hi jacking it. Take care

Dick Hauser - Posted - 10/10/2015:  15:08:39

I would like to read/view information on this methodology could help with this osteoarthritic thumb on my bowing hand.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 10/10/2015:  19:46:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

 

I am sick and tied of you replying to my every post with your negatively. If I say ying you say yang. Why do you do that? I don't understand. Jerry

---

Chops Butcher actually replies to you VERY respectfully.  He's disagreeing with you, but without being disagreeable.

You could learn a lot from that.

In a thread like this, if you would only start out by saying "I don't understand... how this really applies to fiddling.", instead of insulting people right off the bat, or calling the idea a load of crap, you'd get along a lot better here.

Also, the fact that respectful disagreement bothers you, but you feel entitled to disagree extremely harshly shows that you have a double standard-

you can dish it out, but you can't take it.

andrewjamesjunior - Posted - 10/11/2015:  06:18:19

Pogo, you are trying to speak reasonably to a very unreasonable person. 

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/11/2015:  06:42:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dick Hauser

I would like to read/view information on this methodology could help with this osteoarthritic thumb on my bowing hand.

---

I would be very surprised if Body Mapping couldn't be of use in physical therapies to assist with situations such as yours. In fact, I've always felt that chiropractors could help their patients more by giving them practical anatomical facts. Some do, others just twist you, and say "Come on back every week for the rest of your life!" Ka-CHING!

Check out this video around 1:35 where she talks about the joints of the thumb. Getting a clear sense of that first joint (at the wrist) allows for much more mobility of the bow hand.  youtube.com/watch?v=Jw3xRczH5vM  This was also useful for my clawhammer banjo playing, and fingerpicking on guitar. 

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/11/2015:  06:49:19

This guy applies Body Mapping to the left hand. Top 10 Left Hand Mistake #2: "Motion Not From Base Knuckle Joint."  (Go to 2:15) This is Body Mapping without calling it such. Excellent video!

youtube.com/watch?v=Jbge9yDTc9Y

Tbird - Posted - 10/11/2015:  13:05:37

I'm not understanding how you actually apply this knowledge to fiddle playing since there don't seem to be any drills or exercises other than mental. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see how having knowledge of something  automatically converts to physical application. Seems like there should be some drills or exercises involved that would reinforce that knowledge and they should be fiddle/violin specific. I'm not seeing that or maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Are you saying that by doing nothing more than studying how the anatomy of the body works that your mind will automatically convert this into more efficient playing?  

I'm not saying this knowledge isn't good to know, I just have a hard time seeing how it automatically converts to better fiddle playing. It would be like a baseball player reading a book on anatomy and expecting his swing to automatically improve. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding all this so please forgive my ignorance and for making this a lot more confusing than it should be. Are you associated with the bodymap.org site and are you a licensed Andover educator? 

abinigia - Posted - 10/11/2015:  13:20:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tbird

 

I'm not understanding how you actually apply this knowledge to fiddle playing since there don't seem to be any drills or exercises other than mental. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see how having knowledge of something  automatically converts to physical application. Seems like there should be some drills or exercises involved that would reinforce that knowledge and they should be fiddle/violin specific. I'm not seeing that or maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Are you saying that by doing nothing more than studying how the anatomy of the body works that your mind will automatically convert this into more efficient playing?  

I'm not saying this knowledge isn't good to know, I just have a hard time seeing how it automatically converts to better fiddle playing. It would be like a baseball player reading a book on anatomy and expecting his swing to automatically improve. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding all this so please forgive my ignorance and for making this a lot more confusing than it should be. Are you associated with the bodymap.org site and are you a licensed Andover educator? 

 

 

---

I agree with this. I looked at more of the videos. I don't understand why they claim you "map" your hand from the front or the back. I use my whole hand, always have. I has nothing with how it looks to my eyes. I just USE it, because it's designed the way it is, not how it looks. How do blind people function? It's interesting to note where the joints in the fingers and thumb are, but that's all. I am trying to understand what people are getting from this because it almost seems legit, but.. Something's missing.

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/11/2015:  16:44:10

Body mapping is about being aware of how the body moves..Such as, how do you hold the arms up for a long period without the tension building up ? You focus on the muscle that lift the arm, the trapezius. And you do simple exercises to activate the muscles and you use imagery to help concentration. ( that is paraphrased from Kato Havas )   And this...''which ever way the thumb bends by nature, that is the position of the bow hold.....'' The left hand vertical movement of the fingers.....''Lift the entire finger springlike from the knuckle root, direct the most attention to the lifting feeling..'' ( that is from Louis Kievman ) Herbert Whone talks about ''aspects of power'' and uses the imagery of the cat about to pounce on a mouse, the attack is ''initiated from a state of minimal tension....''

Every one talks about ''body mapping'' or ''awareness in the body''. Many people learn to play being totally unaware, but there is a shorter route and you may avoid injuring yourself.   

bluesmode - Posted - 10/11/2015:  21:37:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by abinigia

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by MikeM70

 

I am reminded that many years ago I made repeated attempts to start learning the fiddle and had to stop each time because I developed pain in my neck that then wouldn't go away for weeks. I finally got a shoulder rest. Problem solved.

---

I think the shoulder rest and chin rest can have a lot to do with 'playing pain' or at least discomfort in varying degrees from mild to... ouch!  For instance, my old German has a side mount chin rest. If I busk for 3 hours with it. my neck, shoulders & back or sore. Problem is, I've tried about 8 other chin rests mostly the center mount where the wood hangs over the bass side. That's the one I prefer.    BUT.... any other chin rest other than the one that's on there destroys my sound, turns it harsher and thinner, and it's not a matter of a post adjustment to compensate. So I don't busk with it for 3 hours, and I don't think any amount of body mapping would change this.

On the other hand my china fiddle has a center mount with wood to the bass side, and it's very comfortable, can play for hours with no discomfort.

Also, for me, the right shoulder rest is very important, and I've tried 'em all, or close enough for the girls I go with. I use a Viva shoulder rest on both fiddles. any other shoulder rest is not nearly as comfortable. 

....just saying, the type/style of these rests may have a lot to do with 'playing pain' I know it sure makes a difference for me. 

Edited by - bluesmode on 10/11/2015 21:40:04

cactig - Posted - 10/12/2015:  14:46:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by theimprovingmusician

 

Check out this video around 1:35 where she talks about the joints of the thumb. Getting a clear sense of that first joint (at the wrist) allows for much more mobility of the bow hand.  youtube.com/watch?v=Jw3xRczH5vM  This was also useful for my clawhammer banjo playing, and fingerpicking on guitar. 

---

I have been frustrated forever with my intonation on the E string, especially when using the pinky finger and trying to play tunes up to speed. After watching this guy's video on Top 10 Mistakes of the Left Hand and the bodymapping hand video, I have made big strides literally overnight.  THANKS so much!

Dan Gellert - Posted - 10/12/2015:  15:36:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by theimprovingmusician



 

I think a better place to start is the DVD, "Move Well, Avoid Injury." It's on Amazon. It's really the body mapping textbook, and is perfect for visual learners like me. You can see some clips on YouTube. youtube.com/watch?v=Qlp7vpq_ZwI

---

I can't imagine that looking like "crap" to anybody that has ever tried to teach ANY instrument!  

That video describes the very problems which I see in EVERY beginner, and which keep a good many musicians from ever playing with ease and fluency.

Almost nobody seems to know how their opposable thumb is supposed to work.  Everybody struggles with that cursed little finger... 

fujers - Posted - 10/12/2015:  16:35:31

Well let me tell you something Mr Pogo. Did you read what I said or didn't you. There at the end of my post on this subject I condescended. I realize that yes people may have these problems and they are associated with new players. If you are new to the instrument I can see there are going to have acks and pains because you haven't been there before. I still fill likes it's crap though but only for experienced players. Experienced players don't have this, they might have something but it ain't what this poster claims. The only problem I have is my hands cramping and that because of age. Did you also see to where Henry apologized to me and my reply was "That's ok I understand" You talk about people not reading the post. Henry and I are ok we have been doing this for a long time and we will probably do it some more. Before you ever point your finger....look at yourself first. Now if I may. You sir post on everyone's post you post on every thread you post where there is no thread. Now for a fiddle player like you who has limited knowledge of the instrument how do you know so much? You don't. Also I fill the imformation you give is very mis leading to wrong. These folks are looking for correct information and not the information you give. Like I said, you had better look at yourself first before you point a finger at anyone.  Jerry

Edited by - fujers on 10/12/2015 16:42:40

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/12/2015:  17:02:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

I still fill likes it's crap though but only for experienced players. Experienced players don't have this, they might have something but it ain't what this poster claims. The only problem I have is my hands cramping and that because of age. 

---

Could you clarify to all of us how you know this to be true? Haven't you heard of countless experienced players who have to stop playing due to injury? Have you, perhaps, wondered why your hands are cramped? I have many friends who play music well into old age without cramped hands. Perhaps there's something injurious that you are doing that could be helped by studying how you use your body while playing. 

But from what I've seen, I have a feeling that your answer might be that what I said is a bunch of crap. 

fujers - Posted - 10/12/2015:  17:10:46

Tim, you are a new player are you not....I guess less than ten years

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/12/2015:  17:13:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by cactig

I have been frustrated forever with my intonation on the E string, especially when using the pinky finger and trying to play tunes up to speed. After watching this guy's video on Top 10 Mistakes of the Left Hand and the bodymapping hand video, I have made big strides literally overnight.  THANKS so much!

---

That is exactly how I felt.....I made big strides almost immediately. HOWEVER! The more and more I started to delve into it, the more work I needed to do. It's like a game of Whack-a-Mole. Once you figure out the thumb, then the pinky rears its ugly head, and then the wrist, and then, the collarbone, and then the spine! It's tough work, but so worth it. Cheers to you. 

fujers - Posted - 10/12/2015:  17:59:28

Could you clarify to all of us how you know this to be true? Haven't you heard of countless experienced players who have to stop playing due to injury? Have you, perhaps, wondered why your hands are cramped? I have many friends who play music well into old age without cramped hands. Perhaps there's something injurious that you are doing that could be helped by studying how you use your body while playing.

But from what I've seen, I have a feeling that your answer might be that what I said is a bunch of crap.

You know after you've played as long as I have something has to give...my hands, could have been my ears or my arm. Can I still play yes. No I have never heard of countless musicians loosing there what ever because of injuries that you discuss. Listen, I agree that it's something you should look into but it's not for me and a host of other people. Some will say that they found how to use this technique, well good for them but they are just beginners and they know no better what else to do. So be it. You will see a lot of fiddlers just look over this post and some respond. I am a responding fiddler. I say it is crap because we experienced fiddlers don't need it. We have all ready gotten past the acks and pains and we moved on to higher ground you understand.Jerry

fujers - Posted - 10/12/2015:  19:51:51

Before we get accused of hi jacking this forum. I'm starting a thread called "Knowledge"

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 10/12/2015:  20:05:49

They used to call it ergonomics: how to move your body efficiently without causing injury.  My daughter was a voice major in college and her private lesson teacher, who was a retired opera singer from Austria, relied heavily on the Alexander Technique for vocal majors singing long operas without sound equipment against a loud orchestra...the only way to last through years of this without destroying your voice is to make sure you find your voice in the places where your throat, jaws, just everything, can push a lot of power, while staying agile and relaxed.  Otherwise, the stresses of opera singing would destroy you in a couple of weeks.  I took a Falon Gong class one time and it was kinda similar, though a different approach: still, getting your body into stressful positions and learning to hold it that way while nit allowing the stress or strain to take over.  Anyway, I think some people either seem to be more in touch with how to use their bodies without stressing or straining them, or injuring them, and some need training.  I had to type on a computer keyboard 8 hours a day for the last 15 years on my last job...many people developed carpel tunnel or arthritis, trigger fingers, etc., from doing that.  I always worried about that, because I loved playing instruments and planned on doing more of that once I got retired.  I think the worry, and watching others struggle with hand injuries, kept me always on my toes, so to speak, while using my fingers at the keyboard,,,trying to never let strain work its way in...trying so hard to not injure my hands!  Still now, when I work hard with my hands, I'm always thinking I could deal with a foot injury, etc., but never a hand injury!!!!  But I'm figuring this body mapping is maybe some guide to getting to know motion, speed, endurance, agility, etc., with your fingers while disallowing stress and strain, which could lead to injury...we can probably all figure this out, I believe, if we focus in on it and change as needed.

mswlogo - Posted - 10/12/2015:  20:46:55

Jerry, you don't even know when your insulting people and your last post (make that 2nd to last) insults many.

Maybe some have not got past the aches and pains yet.

Maybe some have not moved on to higher ground.

Maybe some have less experience.

Maybe some have not been blessed with healthy body's.

Maybe some started very late in life and have to limber up joints that have never moved in 50-60 years.

Maybe some have made a critical mistake or got bad advice and not as lucky as you and a little understanding might set them back on track.

There is a really good book that was posted on the forum a couple years back called "Playing Less Hurt".

I found it extremely helpful. It was not Body Mapping, but it covered a lot of understanding of how injuries occur, how to help prevent them and how to deal with/treat them.

And after reading the book and knowing quite a few semi-pro's. Many experienced musicians, on a variety of instruments, DO injure themselves, hate to clue ya.

Edited by - mswlogo on 10/12/2015 20:52:35

fujers - Posted - 10/12/2015:  21:04:45

Now, How do I insult. I do not see it your way. I know that people are just starting out. I know these things. But if I or someone else tells them they are never going to know the truth

Perhaps some of them got some very bad advise and perhaps this idea of body mapping will work will some folks and maybe not. Like I said the experienced players don't need this it's just for the up and coming's.

Now if I insult you folks it's for a good reason. You're either going to have to learn or you're not. There is no right or wrong it's just right.

When you know how to play whats right...you simply move on .Jerry

fujers - Posted - 10/12/2015:  21:07:31

I moved to subject to advice :"Knowledge"

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/13/2015:  02:54:25

Jerry, I think you can explain things to people without insulting them. This seems to be your number one life lesson. 

fujers - Posted - 10/13/2015:  16:23:22

Life lesson you say. Yes I use strong wording and to you it might sound abrasive it might even sound like I give you all crap because I have nothing better to do with my life. I might even say some things that you don't understand. I might even sound like I'm yelling but I'm not. I use action words to get your attention. Lets say if I post on a topic with general words my post will be taken as oh that's just Jerry talking. But if I use action words I will get a response. I get responses to some very important information I am trying to pass on to you. Now that I have your ear, I mean no malice to anyone on this site non. I will go out of my way trying to make you understand how and what I play. Now if you listen or you don't there's nothing that I can do about that. But if you do listen I will show you things. There is not anyone else on this site that try's to encourage playing like I do. I have giving my lesson audio's my music for you to enjoy. Check out my Music pages

So to cut to the chase. I am not insulting anyone I just bring things to your attention. As far as it goes for my cramping hands.
I am an old man and being an old man things will happen. My hands, my eyes and my legs just don't work like they used to. It's called "Old Age". Now old age is coming weather you like it or not. Do you think body mapping is going to cure that. I don't think so. My doctor tells me to expect other things to go wrong with my body. I've had two strokes and waiting on another...but you know what I still play. I play every single night after my wife goes to bed. I am always exploring the fiddle...do you do that? Here I am at the age of 61 still playing the instrument I love to play.

Now people say I have an ego. No I don't either I have confidence and confidence in your playing trumps ego. When I go play I do not bring attention to myself like a person with an ego and you can tell those type of people. I come with confidence knowing that whatever you play I can play something over it. Confidence in your playing is important and Ego do not get along. No sir, No ego..Confidence.

So you see, All though I,m an old man with all my problems I still can play. Jerry

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/13/2015:  16:57:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

Life lesson you say. Yes I use strong wording and to you it might sound abrasive it might even sound like I give you all crap because I have nothing better to do with my life. I might even say some things that you don't understand. I might even sound like I'm yelling but I'm not. I use action words to get your attention. Lets say if I post on a topic with general words my post will be taken as oh that's just Jerry talking. But if I use action words I will get a response. 

This tactic doesn't really seem to be working out very well for you. I have been watching for a while before I actually decided to make a profile and start posting. You seem to have many more people upset at you than seem to be supporting you. 

Your playing speaks for itself. I don't think there's a soul on here that would doubt that. 

A softer, gentler approach might well be worth a try. 

fujers - Posted - 10/13/2015:  17:11:20

I will try. I don't make any promices's though. I will more than likely do the same thing. But I do appreciate your concern.

Just remember the more you learn will bring you closer to what you want to be. The more you practice the more you will get out of fiddling. OK

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/13/2015:  20:58:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

So to cut to the chase.

I am not insulting anyone I just bring things to your attention.

I have confidence and confidence in your playing trumps ego.

---

Jerry, it's insulting....! Just give us the facts, plain and simple....! 

By the life of me I can not  figure out what it is you are trying to teach us....?

Confident people are not abrasive and don't give out crap...!

It's the ego, delusions of grandeur that does this....read up on it...! Get to know your self....!

fujers - Posted - 10/13/2015:  21:28:26

Henry, It's you that don't know yourself. When I say it's confidence that I have...well I have it. I do not now nor ever had delusions of grandeur.



I do not have an ego. I'm just an assuming man in fact you wouldn't even know I was there until I hit the stage.



Delusions I have none. This is were you need to inspect yourself sir. Do you have confidence in what you play...do you. I do



Without confidence in no what you play you are not going to get to far now are you.



Confidence in your playing will go a lot further than having ego and delusions. I promote having confidence in your playing....cause without it you are nothing. Jerry

Edited by - fujers on 10/13/2015 21:30:08

fujers - Posted - 10/13/2015:  22:27:51

One more note. Confidence in your playing and without ego goes a lot further than ego without confidence.



If you think I have delusions of my playing you are completely wrong.



If you think I have a delusional problem..sorry for the spelling of myself about playing you are wrong.



Every player wants and needs to understand what fiddle playing is and it's not a bed of roses



To get good you are going to have to practice and there ain't no way around it. Practice...for most us solves the problem



If you just want to play a couple of tunes and you're done....then do so no one will ever know



But some people would like to know more and I would like to know more



There are people just like you and me that have been playing for years. Now those years have they been good to you or have they not.



Those years of playing for myself have been good and I've had two strokes and I still play the way I do.



It's not for me to judge anyone because I know where they came from....nothing.... and that's the same place I came from nothing.



So delusions of grandeur I will never have...ego I don't or ever never will have....I have confidence in my playing. I got there by practicing...plaine and simple....practice.

Now as far as teaching goes. I teach a straight and forward style of fiddling. I start out simple and move you into forward thinking of how you may want to play.

The forward way is not for everyone and it's hard to grasp the the concepts that I teach but they the concepts I teach will last you for a life time.

Is it hard? Yes it is and I keep as simple as I can. Because I know the fiddler at the other end may not get it.

So with every person that comes to me for lesson's I ask them to play first and that way I tell where I need to start my lessons.

Some folk come to me as old folk and really don't have a good command of the instrument so I will start them off slow. Other folk come to me with a better understanding of the instrument and I treat them different

So fiddling is not for everyone and only those who can come to many challenges ahead off them will aspire. So far I've only lost two....but I have two more to take it's place.

So before you call me a person that has the issues you said. I would take a deep and long  look at where you are in your fiddling. Jerry









 

Edited by - fujers on 10/13/2015 23:07:00

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/14/2015:  00:49:53

Sorry Jerry, I did not know that you teach concepts, I never seen you write about any concepts before.

This thread is about a concept, which concepts do you teach...

fujers - Posted - 10/14/2015:  17:50:45

Henry, I don't teach concepts and I'm really sure what they are. But I can tell you some of the things that I do. These are not in my teachings just something that I practice and you may know about them too.

Lets say I was in the key of G and we're talking basic here. Now if I play the chord changes of 1,4,5,3m 6m,1. I will sometimes start on the 4th of the scale and play all the other chord patterns above. Now I would start on the 5th and go through the changes also stated above the third and 6th the same way. Now where would you expect the resting note would be...The G or Em a relative minor

I do this with all the keys I play in....not very often but I do

The relationship of basic chords teaches some things. You can start your run on any of the notes and come out to your root or relative minor. Now jazz is different you have a lot of chords you may want to pay attention to but ultimately it is going to resolve into some chord you recognize.

Like celtic music. The inversions that they use are very nice. They can play just two chords for the whole song and it sounds like a million chords just passed your ears. All you have to do is hit 2 notes and you have it. Kind a weird but that's how they play. I like celtic music ok but I like the use of double stops and celtic doesn't do that that much but
I sure like it there music.

I've been meaning to do a lesson on double stops for a while now but I'm kind of busy working on my CD and it's kinda hard for to separate my time. I'm focused. Henry, You know I mean you know no harm and I know you don't mean me none. We are just two old players after the same thing....learning. Jerry

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/14/2015:  18:06:16

Perhaps you could discuss all of your personal philosophies on another appropriately titled thread. Maybe in your Knowledge thread. You have hijacked this Body Mapping thread and made it another Jerry thread. Thank you. 

fujers - Posted - 10/14/2015:  18:26:39

Well if may say so. This is what we do. We begin by talking about one thing on a thread and it leads on to talking about other things and other things.



There's is no stopping the freedom of speech. If someone replays to me I have no recourse than to respond don't you think.



I moved this topic over to Knowledge but for some reason they didn't read it.



You don't own this thread so there for I can say what I want...got it. Jerry

PS. You will find this on every thread that you go to. Just the nature of the beast

Edited by - fujers on 10/14/2015 18:38:56

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/14/2015:  18:39:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by fujers

Well if may say so. This is what we do. We begin by talking about one thing on a thread and it leads on to talking about other things and other things.

---

No sir. This is my point.  Everyone else sticks mostly to the subject, and somehow, it always ends up focused on you and your agenda, with you hijacking the thread by being aggressive and argumentative. As I previously said, it's really no way to comport yourself on a group forum where we're all trying to have a collegial and focused conversation. Thanks. 

fujers - Posted - 10/14/2015:  18:58:37

Well sir let me tell you something. You I think are new here are you not?



What starts off as "Body Mapping" soon becomes a free for all that they can post anything they seems fit



I respect your post but it's like any other post that people may post. Just because you use the name "Body Mapping"



Does not mean it's going to stay on the subject. There's a lot of elderly people on this site and God Bless You



I have to count my chickens if I started a thread about "Playing" and it didn't turn into how I got my first girl friend...that's just the nature of things.



If I wanted to bring attention to myself I sure wouldn't do it here. Besides why would I want to



Remember, People do not stick to the subject line...I'm sorry but it is true. So before you go attacking me...keep that in mind.Jerry

PS: If you want to make this to make this thread your own. Patent it...thats the only way it's your's

 

Edited by - fujers on 10/14/2015 19:01:21

fujers - Posted - 10/14/2015:  19:50:29

Listen Tim, You will find a lot of people just post to post understand. I know it don't make any sense but they do. I liked your idea of body mapping but for me I'm a little to late in the game to truly recognize it.

Folks around here are just what they are folks just like me and you . I wish we could have normal conversations about whatever subject that matter to us I wish and it stay on subject but it doesn't

I wished for if I want to talk about scales it would stay on that subject line but it gets all wacho. I wished I could change that but I can't

Take like "Body Mapping" for example. I explained some stuff for myself and other piped in, now I have to explain myself and the words just keep building and building and soon your body mapping thread is out the window until you bring it back in place.

It's just the nature of open blogging. We're anyone with an opinion can say whatever they like within reason.

I did this thread called Scales before and before you new it they were talking about the Grandma...now what does scales and grandma have in common.

You just have to let some things go and worry about the small stuff later. You play well and that what I would concentrate on. Jerry

Lee M - Posted - 10/15/2015:  02:50:54

Now, back to body mapping.

mswlogo - Posted - 10/15/2015:  05:13:05

Jerry why not start a seperate thread about going off topic, rather than take this thread off topic about being off topic.

Jerry is king of taking threads off topic.

Also weren't you gonna drop out of this thread so it could get back on topic?

Man you destroy so many potentially good discussions.

Lee M - Posted - 10/15/2015:  05:41:02

I would think that a form of deep massage such as Rolfing would be something that could go along with uning Body Mapping to improve movement??

fujers - Posted - 10/15/2015:  11:51:24

You see, That's exactly what I mean about hi jacking. It only takes the comment of one person to turn a thread into something else.

There is nothing you can do about it nothing. I started a thread once about "Scaling" and soon it became a thread about Grandma and that turned into Aunts and Uncles.

I didn't get mad and point fingers at anyone I simply brought it back in line to the subject.

Logo, now in your post....Jerry why not start a seperate thread about going off topic, rather than take this thread off topic about being off topic.

Jerry is king of taking threads off topic.

Also weren't you gonna drop out of this thread so it could get back on topic?

Man you destroy so many potentially good discussions.

Did you say anything pertaining to the subject matter. No you didn't.

Now I could turn this around and say...Logo is the King of taking threads off topic.

You know why..because you did the exact same thing I did. There's no difference in what you said than what I did.

Henry and I was talking. Now Henry asked me a Question and I gave him an answer. If you haven't read it I suggest you do because there is some important info in it.

Do you think that I will not answer someone's question on this or any post. If I moved the answer to another post it is likely to get lost.

There's no way around hi jacking for people will say anything they want and it's just the nature of the beast. You can start a thread and sometimes the subject gets lost

The original poster has to step in and put back on track. Logo, You should have never said those words to me.

Because you are just as guilty as I am about not posting what the man is looking for. I did not read anything pertaining to the subject. So before you go pointing your finger at me you had better look at yourself. Lee was the smart man he said back to Body Mapping.

Just to keep this an active thread I will post my finding.

Now it seems to me that body mapping is used and taught in classical school of music am I correct. I can understand that. I mean those player's go through some very rigorous training and I can see some my get hurt.

Tell me what did you feel that body mapping does for you . Did you hurt your hands, arm, neck back. I'm interested because sometimes my neck hurts form me playing fiddle, nothing I can't handle but sometimes it does. I'm very much interested. Jerry

Lee M - Posted - 10/15/2015:  11:52:51

Please, readers... pass over posts that are not on topic... problem solved..Lets try..

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/15/2015:  13:10:54

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

sometimes my neck hurts form me playing fiddle,

 

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I remember this happened to many, many moons ago.....It was in the time when I used a shoulder rest, but twas not the fault of the rest. The problem was caused by me holding on to the fiddle too much with my head....Anyway, I accidentally stumbled onto a cure...One day I was on my back, under my car doing some repairs. This required me to be holding my head up from lying in a prostrate position....Well, next day the pain in my neck had gone...Following that I found a book on neck exercises, and I have had no pain since....Meanwhile, I discarded the rest and learned to play without it, this prevents me from applying excessive pressure from the head and requires the left to do much of the holding of the instrument......... 

Lee M - Posted - 10/15/2015:  13:31:59

quote:

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Originally posted by chops_butcher

 

quote:

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Originally posted by fujers

sometimes my neck hurts form me playing fiddle,

 

---

I remember this happened to many, many moons ago.....It was in the time when I used a shoulder rest, but twas not the fault of the rest. The problem was caused by me holding on to the fiddle too much with my head....Anyway, I accidentally stumbled onto a cure...One day I was on my back, under my car doing some repairs. This required me to be holding my head up from lying in a prostrate position....Well, next day the pain in my neck had gone...Following that I found a book on neck exercises, and I have had no pain since....Meanwhile, I discarded the rest and learned to play without it, this prevents me from applying excessive pressure from the head and requires the left to do much of the holding of the instrument......... 

 

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The neck muscles respond to exercise faster than almost any other muscle group in the body..

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/15/2015:  13:42:16

That's one of the main points of Alexander Technique and Body Mapping: to sit or stand with the head balanced on top of the spine. The number one cause of neck pain is misalignment of the head. The darned thing weighs over ten pounds. I keep a bowling ball in my classroom to demonstrate how heavy ten pounds feels. It ain't light.  All of your neck muscles and back muscles have to do extra duty to support the head, and ultimately, they strain. The compound effect is that the muscles of the back, which do the lion's share of work in supporting the arms, so the arms, in turn, can't deliver the energy all the way down into the fingers with efficiency and speed. 

Working on the body, given any modality (like Alexander Technique, Body Mapping, Yoga, etc.) is a fascinating subject. Alexander laid down four steps to playing with freedom: 1. Unconscious Inefficiency (You don't know your movement is not free, but your movement is strained and injurious), 2. Conscious Inefficiency (You KNOW you're not moving with freedom, and ease, but you don't know how to fix the problem, 3. Conscious Efficiency (You understand the solutions, and are actively working at it. It is not habitual movement, and is in the forefront of your mind.), and 4. Unconscious Efficiency (You naturally move freely, and it is ingrained in your habits.)

I am in Stage 3: I have worked through (most) of my playing issues, and have made great strides to correct them.  I still work at them, but I am generally moving with freedom, balance, and ease.  I feel like I still have many more Body Mapping lessons before I am completely where I'd like to be. It's a lifelong journey, really. 

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/15/2015:  13:47:36

Henry, that book, "The Simplicity of Violin Playing" looks great.  I read, actually some excerpts that were modified for flute. For anyone interested:   

jennifercluff.com/whonepara.pdf

fiddlebut - Posted - 10/15/2015:  14:12:44

You must read 'the twelve lesson course' Kato Havas and 'six lessons with Yehudi Menuhin'

That's a better profile pic...head free, left hand support...

alaskafiddler - Posted - 10/15/2015:  14:22:51

That's great info T.I.M. -

I started another topic before I saw this get back on topic, (not to usurp your discussion, this one seemed to get into being about something else).

theimprovingmusician - Posted - 10/15/2015:  14:59:51

Sounds good, Akaska. Let's pick it up over there. Put this one out of its misery, the poor thing.