giannaviolins - Posted - 12/08/2012:  06:28:32

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I get grief for bringing up legal aspects.  That is completely unwarranted.  It is entirely possible to get sucked into a nightmare in the fiddle world.  I'm not going to give an entire treatise on things that can happen but do keep in mind the legal context.

 

Intellectual property

Copyright infringement - this is pretty clear, don't use without permission, and permission is easy to get.  Commercial use can get you highly zapped.

Copyright loss - do watch those click through agreements

Patent infringement - watch what you copy and especially copy and sell

Sales

Contracts don't have to be in writing.

It's easy to become a "dealer"

Dealers get to be held to the standards in the UCC

Express and implied warranties - if you have no idea what that means, you are setting yourself up for trouble if you're selling

Performance

Let's just say you should read your contract to perform very carefully

If you're performing copyrighted works, then do be careful about the license held by the venue

If you're recording and distributing, think carefully

Torts

Civil wrongs.  Defamation.  Assault.  All that nonsense.  If you're playing in public and especially if there's alcohol, it's not as difficult as you think to get sucked into a civil suit.

Crimes

Victim of scam.  Very easy.  Think of yourself as a "mark" when you're dealing with strangers, especially remotely.

Selling in interstate commerce.  Accidental misrepresentation can look like wire fraud.

Bailee liability

Holding someone else's instrument for them for a few days?  Insured against that?

Put your instrument into a shop?  Are they insuring it?

Oops.  The shop went bankrupt.  Who owns the instrument you had in there?

 

 

Most of the issues I see are contract and fraud.  But do be careful.  I have dealt quietly and privately with a surprising number of musical instrument owners who have been completely blindsided by problems obvious to me.  Usually they are totally, completely out of luck, and didn't need to end up there.

General rules:

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  Get it in writing


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  Writing doesn't have to be a contract


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  Electronic "signatures" count - see UCC


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  Too good to be true usually is (not always - I got a 17th C Italian fiddle in pieces for $225)


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  Listen to that warning tingle


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  Learn basic contract law


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  Learn basic tort law

bsed - Posted - 12/08/2012:  09:11:22

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I don't know about the idea of Copywrite use. I've been aware for some time that this has become an issue in OT music, where some of these tunes have been copywrited, and I heard that if you're in a public place playing one of these tunes and a member of ASCAP comes in, you can be made to pay up or cease & desist.

bsed - Posted - 12/08/2012:  09:12:29

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Personally, I've never lost any sleep over that.

AZJohnB - Posted - 12/08/2012:  09:23:03

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My understanding is that ASCAP and similar agencies take action against the owners / operators of the establishment and not the performers.  It is the owners responsibility to carry the license if it is a 'for profit' establishment.  Traditional tunes versus copyrighted makes no difference.  The owner needs the license either way.

hayesdt - Posted - 12/08/2012:  09:34:56

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quote:

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Originally posted by AZJohnB

My understanding is that ASCAP and similar agencies take action against the owners / operators of the establishment and not the performers.  It is the owners responsibility to carry the license if it is a 'for profit' establishment.  Traditional tunes versus copyrighted makes no difference.  The owner needs the license either way.

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 Either way... does that mean all public domain tunes? 

And what is the requirement when it's a not-for-profit establishment, e.g., a school, public library, etc. 

 

rustycase - Posted - 12/08/2012:  09:43:50

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another total newbie opinion!

 

From my point of view, there seems to be any number of fiddlers here who are at least aspiring professional musicians, if not presently.

Your presentations on various legal aspects, though possibly tedious to most, are indeed valid information.

In my experience, artists of any sort should direct anything peripheral to their creative talents to a competent manager who can deal with those aspects of public interaction.

Best

rc

...I once ran afoul of ASCAP, and it was indeed a surprise to everyone concerned...   We, conceded to the demands presented in their, terse, letter.

.

 

DougD - Posted - 12/08/2012:  10:18:59

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"Traditional tunes versus copyrighted makes no difference.  The owner needs the license either way."

I don't think this is correct. ASCAP and BMI are only interested in collecting royalties for works by their members, not for music in general. A problem arises though, because many traditional tunes and songs have been copyrighted when they are recorded, and this creates lots of problems.

rustycase - Posted - 12/08/2012:  10:42:52

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myshkin - Posted - 12/08/2012:  10:50:56

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Though ASCAP and BMI theoretically only can charge venues for playing music (live or recorded) that their members hold the copyright for, they will charge the venue based on the assumption that all music is copyrighted.  They base their assessments on things that have nothing to do with the specific music played and they don't share the formula they use to come up with their numbers for charging venues or for paying their members.

20 years ago I owned a restaurant that featured live music, but I insisted that musicians only play original or public domain music.  The ASCAP rep didn't even care about that.  They just wanted to know what my hours were, how often I had shows (every night) and what type of business I was and then they came back with a ridiculous amount of money I owed them per year.

I told the rep to take a hike and, when she threatened to sue me, I told her to go ahead and try to collect evidence that I was violating anyone's copyright and I'd see her in court.

I never heard from them again.

IdleHands - Posted - 12/08/2012:  10:54:17

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They're thugs on perpetual jihad against public domain.

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/08/2012:  12:09:23

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There are other kinds of thugs and brigands as well.  Thus my warnings.

It will get worse.

bsed - Posted - 12/08/2012:  19:34:33

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We will rise up against the scoundrels! Their jails can't hold all of us (fist upraised).

GeeDubya - Posted - 12/10/2012:  07:34:09

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In Belfast, Maine, there's a Free Range Music Festival every year where all performances are either public domain music, or music written by the performers.  Part of the intent to to allow a major music festival to happen without ASCAP/BMI interference.  It's been a great success and has showcased some mighty fine talent from all over the US. 

DeamhanFola - Posted - 12/11/2012:  14:10:41

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quote:

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Originally posted by bsed

I don't know about the idea of Copywrite use. I've been aware for some time that this has become an issue in OT music, where some of these tunes have been copywrited, and I heard that if you're in a public place playing one of these tunes and a member of ASCAP comes in, you can be made to pay up or cease & desist.

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Just watched the Spanish-language horror film REC3 (zombie apocalypse begins at a wedding) last night and received some satisfaction when a few zombies tore out the throat of the 'tout' who infiltrated the happy couple's wedding to monitor the songs played by the wedding DJ for royalties.  Don't know if such a job description actually exists in Spain, but our local coffee shop had to close down its open mic night as apparently groups like ASCAP are now attempting to charge open mics, assuming that such performances will include cover songs. If memory serves, the shop owner was hassled by phone by ASCAP.

Sounds like a bit of a shakedown to me. I'm all for copyright and royalties, but unless you're a tribute band playing nothing but Kiss covers or something this seems to take it a bit far.

 

REC3's writer/director also had great fun by including as children's entertainment a guy dressed in a 'Sponge John' suit, who earnestly declares that he has nothing to do with any other pop culture figure, and that no copyright laws have been infringed. Maybe the director's had some issues in the past...

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Edited by - DeamhanFola on 12/11/2012 14:20:07

blgrssr - Posted - 12/20/2012:  14:48:22

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I was in Peru once and our guide pulled over on a road and relieved himself in the middle of the road. when he got back i said "you know you can get arrested for that in the states?" he said "and you call yourself the land the free?"

fiddler59 - Posted - 12/21/2012:  20:30:30

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quote:

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Originally posted by myshkin

Though ASCAP and BMI theoretically only can charge venues for playing music (live or recorded) that their members hold the copyright for, they will charge the venue based on the assumption that all music is copyrighted.  They base their assessments on things that have nothing to do with the specific music played and they don't share the formula they use to come up with their numbers for charging venues or for paying their members.

20 years ago I owned a restaurant that featured live music, but I insisted that musicians only play original or public domain music.  The ASCAP rep didn't even care about that.  They just wanted to know what my hours were, how often I had shows (every night) and what type of business I was and then they came back with a ridiculous amount of money I owed them per year.

I told the rep to take a hike and, when she threatened to sue me, I told her to go ahead and try to collect evidence that I was violating anyone's copyright and I'd see her in court.

I never heard from them again.

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Good fro you...!! ASCAP seems to be the ones hassling club and resteraunt owners where I use to live and play a lot as well (Athens GA). It really stinks because most of the writers songs that I have covered are just glad that they are being played out in public and people are enjoying them. Everybody needs to get paid for there work, but the way ASCAP goes about it by hassling small club and resteraunt owners is not the answer IMHO. I know my wife who is a very accomplished musician and songwriter didn't sign with BMI or ASCAP. She went with SESAC as a lot of other writers have as well. As Steve said it's only going to get worse. Welcome to the 21st century.......!!

David Blackmon

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/22/2012:  07:20:35

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Yup.  Fight back.  If you're in TN, call me.