epifiddle - Posted - 05/21/2012:  13:17:58

Hi. first post here.  I've been doing some reading, but am still trying understand chord structure as it relates to a fiddlle. So, If someone wouldn't mind responding I would greatly appreciate it.

I know a chord is typically composed of three notes- a root, major third and perfect fith. ,   I also understand the "root" note determines the chord #. in a given key.  Say I want to play a 4 chord in the key of A. If I understand,  the root  is D and with one more note available to me on my instrument I can play either F# or A.  Does either make it a 4 chord? 

Now what about inverted chords?  if  the open A and E constitute a 1 chord in the key of A, why isn't it also an inverted 5 chord?  Thanks for your help. kent

IdleHands - Posted - 05/21/2012:  13:22:34

you'd typically want to play the third, the f# in the case of the d chord. Fifths sound cool, but do not really give the flavor (major, or minor) of the chord and sound more hollow.

Peghead - Posted - 05/21/2012:  14:29:15

D is the 4 chord in the key of A by definition, any combination of D,F#, A is still the 4 chord. The 4 just describes D's relationship to the key (A in this case). D is also the 5 chord in the key of G. In either case the D chord is the same combinations of D,F# and A. By the way, a chord can be just 2 notes. So, in the key of A, you will be playing the 4 chord (D) if you play the note D, with either the F# or the A. Hope that helps.

Edited by - Peghead on 05/21/2012 14:35:21

DougD - Posted - 05/21/2012:  14:46:13

epifiddle - In the key of A the V chord is E - E,G#,B. There's no A in it, which is why your open A and E are not an inverted V chord. The chord numbers are conventionally written with Roman numerals - Arabic numerals refer to the degrees (notes) of the scale. I think you're well on your way to understanding this though.

fiddlejen - Posted - 05/21/2012:  15:06:38

""you'd typically want to play the third, the f# in the case of the d chord. Fifths sound cool, but do not really give the flavor (major, or minor) of the chord and sound more hollow.""

Depends on how quickly you want to supply a chord.  It's true that thirds definitely help the sound! 

But, as I learnt to use chords -- in order to participate musically with guitar players whose written music was words + chords music -- for a few years I would just automatically go for the Root + Fifth.  It is easy, and almost always safe, with basic chords.  Easy, because you just bar it.  Or else, if the root is an open string, then it's the next open string.  Much easier to figure out while in the middle of a song, than trying to remember what the third is of this particular chord.  

The A and the E make a 1 chord in the key of A.  On the fiddle, it does not much matter where you play them. So you can play the open A + open E, or you can play the first finger on G and first finger on D.  Or -- if you don't mind losing the "easy" part  of playing fifths -- you can play an open A plus first finger on D, or even a third finger on E plus a fourth finger on A.  In other words, when you know the notes that make up the chord, you can play them wherever your fingers can reach them most quickly.  (You also have any option that contains the middle note of your chord.)  Very rarely is there any need to worry about which note is on top or bottom.  (Unless you're playing a 5-string.  Then if the music specifies a bottom note, then if you go to the low string you should play that note there.)

""Now what about inverted chords?  if  the open A and E constitute a 1 chord in the key of A, why isn't it also an inverted 5 chord?  Thanks for your help.""

The 5 chord in the key of A contains no "A," whether you invert it or not.  There's an E, a G#, and a B.  You pretty much choose any two of those notes anywhere on your fingerboard.  The easy combo to find, is to start with the root E using the first finger on the D string, and just lay your finger across to the B on the A string. 

 You can always easily find the fifth by barring your finger straight across from the root like that.  (Unless, of course, you start on the E string; then you don't have another string to reach for!)  But you also always have the option of playing any of the notes in the chord anywhere on the fingerboard. 

A good exercise, is to choose a key (this works best in D), and staying on two strings (only the D and the A), play all the two-note chords in the key, up and then down again.  That is, first play the 1 chord, then the 2 chord, then the 3 chord, etc., all the way up and down the scale again -- finding the notes only on the two strings you have chosen.  First do it, making your chords of first & fifth, then do it, making your chords of first & third.

Doing that exercise now & then, Really helped me with finding chords.  I did it using mainly the D-scale which, being in the middle of the fiddle, transferred easily to other keys as I went along.  

Edited by - fiddlejen on 05/21/2012 15:10:16

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 05/21/2012:  16:23:39

I don't know what all you know so if I state or restate the obvious don't take it badly. I took up with the mandolin first so I "get" chords. Bowing freaks me out.... a bow is not a pick. Sheesh tell my left brain that.
An A is AC#E an E is EG#B, so no it's not an inversion of E . Any combination of I III or I V or III V willl work. If you want to express a minor you of course need to use the flatted three . But a one five works OK, especially if someone else is flatting the third. The guitar player usually does.
When playing in FfCP scales, first finger closed position, called finger capoing by some, the I IV and V chords are in the same place relative to where you start your scale, the II and VIm are easially found as well. Megan Lynch has a good CD on doing this and has a workshop she did on FHO on the subject. You can still purchase it if you want to.
Most OT Folk and BG tunes and songs are variations of a I IV V , one chord four chord and five chord relative to the scale you are playing. Example CDEFGABC so C chord F chord and G chord are the one four five, six , the relative minor is Am the two chord , D , found in tin pan alley songs and jazz songs among others is one whole step above the one chord so you can slide / walk right up there and back down again as needed. ALL the rest of the chords can be reached from the I chord without changin position, so you start with a I IV single finger chord, using the C on the A string and the G on the E string, first finger, and hang on for dear life.. the F uses the same C and you add an F on the D string with your middle finger then the G Chord using the G on the E string which you are still holding with the D on the A string with your ring finger. I IV V and away you go. Yes there is more to it than that but this avenue gets you jamming along and helps with those pesky double stops which of course are all chords. I hope I helped. I'm a terrible teacher...... Cheers.. R/

boxbow - Posted - 05/21/2012:  18:46:02

I assume that you're interested in the basics, like you'd use for OT and Bluegrass and most other folky stuff.  The swing and jazz stuff still bugs me, and I've been trying for quite a while.  You acknowledge the existence of your I, IV, V chords.  OK.  If you get a basic mandolin chord chart, Mel Bay has some handy ones sized to fit an instrument case, it's not hard to adapt.  Any two notes shown on the tablature on adjacent strings will represent the chosen chord.  As others have mentioned, the perfect fifth is not necessarily your best choice because it hangs there, unresolved to major or minor.  That can be useful, especially with modal tunes, but most of your double stops in a major key sound better as the 3rd interval, rather than the 5th. The flatted 7th interval will give you, you guessed it, a 7th chord.  Whether any of these are inverted or not doesn't matter particularly.  My first choice is usually to play something that is easier rather than harder to get to if I'm just chucking back-up. I'm lazy that way.  I get fussier if I'm playing lead or harmony and I want double stops for color or melodic tension.

OK, so I started writing out a bunch of possible double stops for the I,IV,V chords using different pairs of adjacent strings.  I didn't really want to finish writing it, and I'll bet you really didn't want to read it.  It was pretty bad.

So.  Better idea.  Not everybody agrees with this, but if you get a cheap mandolin, and start figuring out chord shapes from a chord book, you can adapt straight across to double stops on your fiddle.  Start with easy and convenient.  Move on to better theory as others have posted on this thread.  I recommend doing it in the dead of night when cable TV is all infomercials.  Eventually, it'll start to hang together for you. 

Chucking back-up is good for getting used to the idea and developing motor control, whether it's on mandolin or fiddle.  I'd recommend doing it on fiddle ASAP, since that's your primary goal.

IdleHands - Posted - 05/22/2012:  08:39:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlejen

""you'd typically want to play the third, the f# in the case of the d chord. Fifths sound cool, but do not really give the flavor (major, or minor) of the chord and sound more hollow.""

Depends on how quickly you want to supply a chord.  It's true that thirds definitely help the sound! 

But, as I learnt to use chords -- in order to participate musically with guitar players whose written music was words + chords music -- for a few years I would just automatically go for the Root + Fifth.  It is easy, and almost always safe, with basic chords.   

---

Im just not sure the easy way out is always the best thing to do.  Of course you can get away with safe choices, but striving to fill out the sound with the right third is the best choice, in my opinion.  

carlb - Posted - 05/22/2012:  10:51:54

There are 7 pages of double stop positions, and the chords they go with, in Miles Krassen's "Appalachian Fiddle", Oak Publications, NY, 1973, pp. 18-24.

wooliver - Posted - 05/22/2012:  11:37:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by epifiddle

If I understand,  the root  is D and with one more note available to me on my instrument I can play either F# or A.  Does either make it a 4 chord? 

---

By definition, yes. But the voicing may not be what you want. The confusion may be the I, IV, V chords may share common tones when it come to playing their respective 3rd and/or 5th. Chord inversion or not, a chord still consists of the root, 3rd and 5th.  In an inversion the 3rd and/or 5th is in the lower register (octave) than the root.  Still in G major key.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/22/2012:  14:27:23

I agree easy is not always the best plan. what you want is voicing.

Of course on a fiddle you are playing just interval dyads (two notes), so you are going to be leaving out at least one component of scale defined chords. It is sometimes better to leave out the root. So for your D chord you might use just the F# and A notes. While that could also serve as a F# minor (or other possibilities) it is considered D by context, and what else is happening with other musicians. Same is true with leaving out the third, or fifth, other things will define or imply that. When you start getting into expanded chords, like a 7th; often those are made with the third and seventh.

Some styles, the voicing seems to work better to keep the pitches close, (nearest neighbor) and sometimes what's more important in voicing is in how one chord moves to another, and direction it's traveling, again often as the nearest going up or down. Wide spaces and jumps can sound out of place, even though it's the right chord. It's very common to use a c#/e (as an A chord) leading into a d/f#. Again it's dependent on what the chord is backing up. 

I've never considered root/fifth to sound hollow, quite the opposite, I think they sound quite powerful and strong  - a similar concept in some shape note singing, and in rock power chords (and some Irish players use) - the thirds make it sound wimpier. As well I play some tunes that (besides sometimes using neutral thirds and sevenths) are more strongly modal based (even as Ionian), and more drone based accompaniment (even as root fifth), the melody alone creates and defines interval relationships, and just sounds better without the accompaniment defining the harmonic space (playing thirds), they kind of get in the way.

scusigurl2011 - Posted - 05/23/2012:  05:47:27

I have a collection online of free handouts which I designed for my students.  See:

Free Handouts for Music Students

The one relevant to your questions is the

Chord Structures and Cadential Formulas

This is not an issue of "voicing":  voice leading is an entirely different subject.  Any textbook on theory will begin with building triads on the steps of a major scale (see graphics on that page).  Chords are indicated by Roman numerals:  I, IV and V are major;  ii, iii and vi are minor.  The vii°  chord is a diminished chord, or the top three notes of the V7 (Dominant 7th chord). 

The music that we play, "Western" music (not Country & Western, but music originating in Europe, versus Asian, African and other musics from different cultures than our own), is also called "triadic" music.  Our music is based on triads, the root-third-fifth you mentioned. 

It's also important to know that every scale step of the major scale (and minors, also) has a specific name and a specific function:

I - Tonic

ii - Supertonic

iii - Mediant

IV - Subdominant

V - Dominant

vi - Submediant

vii° - Leading Tone

 

The leading tone is especially important in violin because the violin is not equal tempered and the l.t. is higher, on stringed instruments, than it is on the keyboard (where every octave is divided into 12 equal 1/2 steps).  But that is a different subject area, also.

Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 05/23/2012 06:03:51

DougD - Posted - 05/23/2012:  06:32:58

You are confusing two different things. "Voice leading" refers to the way the voices work in part writing - it is an entirely different topic. "Voicing" is "A term that refers to the structure of a chord, or the way in which a chord is constructed."  Look here: music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/  Its certainly relevant to this topic.

Edited by - DougD on 05/23/2012 06:35:35

scusigurl2011 - Posted - 05/23/2012:  07:33:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

You are confusing two different things. "Voice leading" refers to the way the voices work in part writing - it is an entirely different topic. "Voicing" is "A term that refers to the structure of a chord, or the way in which a chord is constructed."  Look here: music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/  Its certainly relevant to this topic.

---

 I wasn't aware of that distinction;  thank you for bringing it to my attention.  That would be *embarrassing* if I were standing into front of a class and the distinction was brought to my attention by some snot nosed freshman!

fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/23/2012:  09:55:47

Do, Mi, So.

But you can only play two at a time on fiddle.
Pick whichever two are playable and sound good to you in the context of the tune.

The classic approach is to keep "Do" lower than the "Mi" and the "So".
But on fiddle, playing a "Mi" lower than the "Do" is common, and it sounds good.

DougD - Posted - 05/23/2012:  10:36:12

You're welcome, Connie. As the saying goes "Live and Learn" - it applies to all of us.

epifiddle - Posted - 05/23/2012:  12:36:07

lots of great info! Thanks to all for your help. kent

howlinhog - Posted - 06/16/2012:  06:46:16

I should have started with the Mandolin instead of the Violin, because applying guitar talk to a Violin is like getting directions from someone speaking Chinese, unless of course you already know music theory, and it's pretty plain you're in the same shoes I was.

scusigurl2011 - Posted - 06/16/2012:  07:20:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Do, Mi, So.



But you can only play two at a time on fiddle.

Pick whichever two are playable and sound good to you in the context of the tune.



The classic approach is to keep "Do" lower than the "Mi" and the "So".

But on fiddle, playing a "Mi" lower than the "Do" is common, and it sounds good.

---

I saw this and wondered why you said it;  you can also play triple and even quadruple stops on the violin;  it's very common in Bach, for example. 

The 1-3-5 configuration of any chord can be inverted;  whether the chord is in root position, or 1st or 2nd inversion is determined by which note is lowest.  I would think any root position or inverted chord would sound good and be acceptable.  Thus:

C Major I chord in root position:  C-E-G

1st inversion:  E-G-C

2nd inversion:  G-C-E

I remember being confused by this, wondering where you put the other two notes.  But it doesn't matter;  the lowest (in pitch) note of the three (C, E and G) is the determining factor in determining whether the chord is root position or an inversion. 

In three note chords you only have two inversions because if you flip it a third time you get the same as the I chord, only an octave higher.  But with four note chords (like the V7 - the dominant 7th chord), you have four notes, so you can have three inversions.  See:

Chord Structures & Cadential Formulas

 

DougD - Posted - 06/16/2012:  07:52:25

Could you tell us exactly how you play three or four strings at once? It might be a useful technique.

The triple and quadruple stops in Bach's solo violin writing have been the subject of debate for centuries, sometimes involving the use of special loose bows and other tricks. This is far from my area of expertise, but I believe that mostly they are played as quick arpeggios, or sequential doublestops (2+2 strings). Here's a page from a book that discusses the problem:  books.google.com/books?id=6d1-...p;f=false  There's suggested notation at the top of that page - never more than two notes at once. And here's a video of one of the great masters playing the Chaconne from Partita #2. I don't think he ever actually plays more than two strings at once: youtube.com/watch?v=6q-Zqz7mNjQ

Or you could go with Eck Robertson's approach, who said that if he faced tough competition in a fiddle contest he'd "Put a matchstick under my E string and throw some triple stops at 'em!"

Edited by - DougD on 06/16/2012 08:03:03

scusigurl2011 - Posted - 06/16/2012:  09:52:26

I see your point; they *are* played as quick arpeggios, or sequential doublestops. You can play three at a time, however; the technique is to press down the middle string, making an even plane of the three strings.  In terms of harmony and chord structure, whether they're played 2, 3 or 4 at a time, the harmonic structure I believe is the issue.   

Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 06/16/2012 09:56:22

DougD - Posted - 06/16/2012:  13:45:49

In terms of harmony, any number of notes in a chord are possible, but on a violin its limited, if you want to play them simultaneously.  I don't see how pressing down a string changes the geometry near the bridge very much, but maybe I should experiment. Albert Schweitzer was one who thought Bach had a special bow in mind. You might be interested in this from Wikipedia:  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curved_bow

In old time music, the technique of an arpeggio across four string might be used in Henry Reed's Ducks in the Pond:  memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D...em_AWhS::

Edited by - DougD on 06/16/2012 13:48:45

modon - Posted - 06/18/2012:  16:41:25

My approach to this was to get a chart of arpeggios.... took note of what positions adjacent strings had for a given 'chord'. Turns out... there is a definate pattern that repeats itself up and down the fingerboard and side to side. this might be something like what boxbow was doing. I found that being familiar with this pattern and the way it lies really opened up my understanding of double stops. And it also helps me find the positions i need to play in keys I'm not familiar with. I hope what I'm saying makes sense to you all.

Edited by - modon on 06/18/2012 16:42:35

boxbow - Posted - 06/18/2012:  18:44:13

Dude, if you can figure out what I'm doing, please enlighten me, cuz I sure don't know.  That much I'm sure of.  I just try to do more of what works, and less of what doesn't.

But you're right, there are patterns, and patterns within patterns.  You don't have to know them for every key, either, and very often you just shift the pattern over a string or two, or up the neck a little.  Once you're there, use 'em until you get bored or until you need to play a phrase or two.  Then move on. 

This all assumes I'm not playing a fiddle tune with everybody playing back-up to it.  Since I'm the only fiddler, I have to get inventive.  Most of the guys I play with aren't playing OT.  Ever try to find a fiddle part to a Herman's Hermits tune?

wooliver - Posted - 06/19/2012:  05:59:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by boxbow

Dude, if you can figure out what I'm doing, please enlighten me, cuz I sure don't know.  That much I'm sure of.  I just try to do more of what works, and less of what doesn't.

---

For sure. I always say, "i don't know what i know?" I'm only finding out after the fact about stuff, like chord inversions. Truth is you don't even need to play the root to have good sounding/harmonious double stop that "fits."  That's a beautiful thing about the fiddle. Sometimes it's hard to settle upon a single approach, when there's so many ways to go. It boils down to trusting your ears. Don't let somebody tell you, you are less a musician, just because you can speak it like a language. You're doing something that a lot of folks only wish they could do. 

fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/03/2012:  22:40:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Do, Mi, So.



But you can only play two at a time on fiddle.

Pick whichever two are playable and sound good to you in the context of the tune.



The classic approach is to keep "Do" lower than the "Mi" and the "So".

But on fiddle, playing a "Mi" lower than the "Do" is common, and it sounds good.

---

Actually, I should have qualified that-

With a normal bow, and normal bow tension, and a normally arched bridge that's close to the curve of the fingerboard, you can only play two at a time.

The fellow who does or did the Pierre Cruzatte reenactments said he worked on doing triple stops- for some reason he felt it was historically more accurate- he did it with a very flat bridge arch.

If you had a bow that was tensioned with the thumb, like bows apparently once were, you could back off on the thumb pressure and get triple stops.

An arched bow like a psaltery bow would also be more suitable for that, since you wouldn't bump the hair up against a relatively straight stick.

The thing is, for most people, getting the intonation correct on a double stop is hard enough- getting it correct on a triple stop is even harder.

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/08/2012:  19:03:17

In bluegrass the melody note at the beginning and the end of a phrase is almost always a Do (1), Mi (3) or So (5). When a tune starts on the So or 5th of the 1 chord, a lot of the time the accompanying note is the Do, the root of the 1 chord. In G that 's a G on the E string with the D on the A. You usually lead in with chromatic little chops from the B note on the A string, as in Foggy Mountain Breakdown and so many others. It's a strong sound and a VERY aggressive way to start a tune. I always feels a little conspicuous doing it and will avoid it when I can. To me it feels like leaving a red light or parking space by burning rubber for about 20 feet. It can be a little scary when you aren't confident in your double stop intonation and you can't be timid and pull it off.

In other keys or over other chords besides the G, finding those good tight double stops can take some work, especially when you are sliding into them with both strings. You have to have your spacing right, more or less, before the slide.

If you think 3 note chords on a fiddle are confusing, spend some time reading and charting Drop 2 and Drop 3 guitar chords used in jazz.