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bj - Posted - 01/21/2011: 18:00:13
I've been finding that I have a whole lot more fun making music with people who can pick stuff up on the fly and play by the seat of their pants and improvise.
There's something that happens when I jam with folks who can do this.
We actually create music, instead of just playing by rote.
We make an effort to blend together and match spirit and tone and each modify our version just enough so the versions each is playing play well together. The result is something that sounds new and fresh, even if the tune is over a hundred years old. And sometimes musical alchemy happens. We spin pure gold out of plain ol' notes.
And though I know not everyone is as far on the path as I am, there are those who are beginning who make the effort and succeed a whole lot more often than they fail to at least play something that blends into the melting pot we call a tune. And there are those who don't.
For me it just isn't as enjoyable playing with people who play by rote, whose settings never vary, whose version of the tune will be the same five years from now as it is right now.
I already know that this statement on my part is going to cause a fair bit of controversy.
Have at it . . .
Topic moved from Other Fiddle-Related Topics - wormbower
Edited by - wormbower on 01/22/2011 07:37:21
woodwiz - Posted - 01/21/2011: 18:13:53
No argument here. Takes a while to develop that ability, but if you don't go after it, you'll never get there. The best jams are ones where you get stretched, and it's a real kick when "music happens".
toddwright - Posted - 01/21/2011: 18:35:58
I know what you mean about spinning gold. I've been spoiled in that virtually all of the folks I jam with are professional or semi-professional musicians and much better musicians than I will probably ever be. Virtually everything is improvised on the fly. The other day I played with another group that were very very good musicians; but, everything was played straight. The music was good but it just seemed to be missing something.
ChickenMan - Posted - 01/21/2011: 18:57:47
You'll get no argument from me. Nothing more uplifting and timeless for me than making music with others, on the fly, with or without a script.
I am fortunate to have had years of that sort of music making - mostly playing guitar. It is the thing that keeps me fiddling in bluegrass
settings: spontaneous music within that (usually) blues progression framework. My ears already know what to shoot for and my fingers
seem to be able to do it with minimal thought or effort. But I don't really play much of the typical/cliche bluegrass fiddle licks, so I don't really
call myself a bluegrass fiddle. More of an old time fiddler who's really a bluegrass hack 
lively laura - Posted - 01/21/2011: 19:20:35
I left symphonic band style music on a different instrument to learning how to play a fiddle, just so someday I can get to the point of "just playing"... no sheet music, no set rules, but teamwork all the same... I've watched groups that do that and it looks like so much fun and sounds great!
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/21/2011: 19:38:34
I'm all for the kind of "living" music you're talking about, and it's always my personal goal.
BUT when I look at living traditions, it seems there have always been those
who focused more on imitating and recreating. In the Earl Collins video interview,
you can tell he had a huge respect, even reverence for his dad, and tried VERY
hard to copy his every fiddling move.
Then you have fiddlers like Tommy Jarrell, who took some from his dad, but also
from other older fiddlers, and also from his contemporaries, and seems to have
been more creative and put more of his own stamp on the music.
Some emphasize the continuity of a tradition, and some help the tradition progress and
stay alive- that was true then, and it's still true today.
IF you are creative and fluid enough, you can play with people who are somewhat rigid, and use it as a skeleton
or starting point, and add a layer of life.
An extreme example is the story of a recital and reception for a great classical pianist.
A little girl, went over to the piano and started playing "Chopsticks".
The hostess was horrified, and was about to stop her,
but the pianist waved her off, and went over, reached one hand on either side of the little girl,
whispered "keep playing!" and added variations and harmonies on either side of the keyboard as the little girl continued
playing the melody.
(That's by memory, so consider that subject to "folk process"... I may have mangled it a bit!)
To a lesser degree, I try to do the same thing when I play with beginners and intermediates or people
who've learned a tune from a book.
1. I try to stick to a tempo they can handle comfortably
2. I emphasis key beats that will help draw the group together
3. I try and add bounce, but without making it hard to follow
4. I do my best to make live music on top, in terms of phrasing and
little variations that won't throw things off.
What beginners, intermediates and notation learners ALL tend to lack is a sense
of the tunes GROOVE. If I can hop on their version of the tune, and add some groove to
it, that can both add life to something that sounded very dead, and also make
it easier for them to play that tune with a groove the next time they play it.
Now, in terms of anyone doing what you are talking about with fiddle tunes,
you need to be somewhat aware of the structure of traditional fiddle tunes.
Obviously, you need to be clued in on the AABB (or occasionally AABBCC) pattern,
but there are many predictabilities beyond that.
Very often, you have a structure like Soldier's Joy, where you have an initial phrase,
a middle phrase that ends on a V or VI chord (or even a minor VII chord in a modal tune)
then you repeat the first phrase, then you have an ending tag that usually drops quickly
into the V chord before resolving (in modal tunes you often substitute the VII chord, at least if the fiddle isn't cross tuned)
In hornpipes you often have a structure where the B part begins differently from the A part, but often uses the
exact same second half.
In general, IV chord changes tend to happen more often in the B part, especially at the beginning of the B part.
Also, the A and B parts usually center on different notes in the scale, one part being mostly higher, and one part being mostly lower.
Also, the ending phrases in both parts tend to be more formulaic and predictable.
Anyway, once you're up on on these little structures, whether analytically or intuitively,
you can break down the tune into bite size pieces, even if no one is stopping for you.
Maybe the first time through, all you can get is the last phrase, since it reminds you of something else.
Then maybe you can get the 1st and 3rd phrases, since those are usually the same.
Then you can get the 2nd phrase that often has the V chord change.
(This order isn't fixed, it's just an example- you can snag them in any order you want).
Pattern bowing can also help get you up and running on a tune quicker, because you can
focus on the bowing phrase by phrase, instead of the bowing for the whole tune.
The breaks in the patterns tend to come in the same places where the phrases end and begin.
Also, the way tunes work in Old Time, G and D tunes tend to predominate.
Coincidentally, the two modes used for minor sounding tunes usually use the same two scales,
since the majority of the modal tunes are in A, if they are Mixolydian, (main A chord is major)
it's the same scale notes as D major,
if it's Dorian (main A chord is an A minor) it's the same notes as a G scale.
It helps to know certain double stops, especially
the one where the lower note is played by the third finger on what would be the 5th fret if the fiddle
had frets, and the higher note by the first finger on what would be the 2nd fret if the fiddle had frets.
A lot of melodic structures revolve around those two notes, so it's a good double stop to practice LOTS,
even if you don't learn ANY others.
Well, the double stop where the higher string is open and the lower string is played by the first finger on
what would be the 2nd fret is very important in G, D, and A major for phrases that go to the V chord change.
Anyway, once you are up to speed on all these little structural predictabilities (many of which also apply to Scottish, Irish, and English fiddle tunes, BTW, except they use modal tunes in more keys) you can mentally plot out a fiddle tune very quickly getting the easy parts the first time through, then, like bowling, nailing the harder ones... the "spares".
You will get to the place where you don't so much need a recording to LEARN to play the tune- you just need the recording so
you can remember what you learned once you get home!!!
Also, knowing the structure helps you adapt in a jam... if your version is clashing with a version in a jam in a certain part., if you know the fiddle tunes structure, it's easier to modify the offending part so it fits the next time around.
In crooked tunes, making note of whatever regularities there are can help. Sometimes the tune is really a quite regular tune except for an added tag or phrase, and it should be easier to pick up on the regular parts more quickly.
It also helps if you can play other instruments besides fiddle. If the backup guitarist is up to speed on the chord changes, watching what they are doing
can fill you in on the chord structure which narrows the possibility of melodic choices. Knowing that mandolin is tuned the same as fiddle may allow you to "read" the mandolinist's hand maybe even more easily than reading a fiddler's left hand, because you can see the frets.
And a fiddle tune melody on mandolin may be clearer and easier to follow than the fiddle where things tend to blend, especially on a mellow fiddle.
If the banjo is capoed on the 2nd fret for D and A tunes, there is a correspondence between the fingering on their top string and the fiddle E string.
Even if you don't play banjo, very often clawhammer players play a somewhat skeletal version of the fiddle melody- if you can learn that first,
you will know the important notes (very often notes that occur on the downbeat and downstroke), and you can then "flesh the tune out".
And if the fiddle tune has a sung part, that sung part is ALSO a simple skeletal version of what the fiddle is playing that can give you a leg up on that part of the tune.
One thing I do to help keep my versions "alive".
I try to find two or three good versions of a tune that are somewhat similar, and listen to all of them, and pick out and learn the parts where the melody
seems clearest and, well, most <melodic>. Listening to several versions also gives me a sense of what the core melody of the tune is, and what parts are "filler".
Also, when I am learning a tune, I often "get it wrong" on my first attempt... but maybe those "mistakes" sound good. If they sound good enough I'll
keep them in the tune as variations after I learn it right, and may even decide that they better fit my concept of the tune.
I tend to enjoy tunes more that I've heard from several places because they DO seem alive- because my concept of the tune isn't static or fixed.
If I learn a tune from sheet music, or from a single version slowed down, my concept of the tune takes a LOT longer to grow and morph.
Edit:
Oh no... looking at it on the page, I think I may have set a record for my LONGEST SINGLE POST!!!!
Edited by - fiddlepogo on 01/21/2011 19:48:57
catty - Posted - 01/21/2011: 19:56:58
Haven't read through the above responses yet, but my brief impressions:
Musicality is the essential aspect:: I make music on anything around me. I also find music in dancing especially, and poetry, visual arts, nature...
Prior to last summer, I hadn't played sax more than a couple of hours in the last 35 years, since I was 12 years old.
Felt compelled to play--so I traded a bunch of guitars and banjos for a nice tenor sax, and went and jammed with some advanced players last summer. I could barely move on the sax, but they told me: "you don't know ####, but you make it sound good."
I usually can make some form of evocative sound with anything around me -- I'm a drummer/percussionist, and bassist among other things -- so I'm inclined, or disposed or whatever.
I think you're speaking about something that I understand and can certainly relate with, BJ. There's a certain noumenon, a priori, innate, primitive essence of musicality that some folks have to greater or lesser degree.
I was just watching some documentary of music in Mali (I think it might actually be the Bela Fleck thing) and love the way very young children are always around the music, which is a community affair. I play in a salsa band with drummers who have studied traditional music in Cuba. Very interesting how sophisticated folk music can be.
My own children--I'm starting them on hand drumming at very early ages. We have instruments all around the house, and they're encouraged to play with them as much as they draw, sing, dance--it's one of our main forms of family play. We don't subscribe to television (although our older children got us Netflix for Christmas, so we do watch movies). It's often noisy in our home, but I believe that a sense of free expression and play with music will help to instill a musical life.
EDIT: ...a musical life with which to experience and from which they can imbue; the reciprocating element of communal play.
Edited by - catty on 01/22/2011 15:01:22
bj - Posted - 01/21/2011: 20:52:29
Michael, you went overboard again.
I'm not talking about not honoring what came before when playing oldtime. What I'm talking about is when you are actually in a **jam** situation (not a performance situation) and you've got three people playing different versions of the tune. If they're rigid about it, it might end up vacuuming (as agisai would say!) But if each can modify their version slightly to blend into what they're hearing . . . and you've got people who don't know the tune who are picking things up here and there. Blending in. Playing skeletally, but fitting.
There's also the tunelist thing. I'll be danged if I'm gonna stick to a set tunelist if we have a hot fiddler from Maine or Florida show up at our jam who knows tunes that we don't know (and yes, this has happened before. YAY!) I'm gonna get at least five new tunes out of that fiddler before the night is over. And I've so far been lucky to have the jammers who are willing to blaze those new trails, and mostly manage to get on board before the end of the tune. The ones who aren't willing have mostly weeded themselves out or only show up sporadically.
Edited by - bj on 01/21/2011 20:54:06
UsuallyPickin - Posted - 01/22/2011: 04:56:54
BJ..Thats when it becomes PLAYING... when folks know enough about their instruments and music to " go with it". Definately becomes some of the best of times.
Tune Lists at a jam are a tool to be used like any other. Playing only the songs on the list .... well that's not for me. But a set or two that a newbie can take and get started with yeah, or let's play ( old faithful rag from the list) and warm up, or when your jam group is invited to play somewhere, especially when it's your turn and can't think of something to play.. Can you tell I like lists? But you're right an overorganized jam isn't.
On "playing" by the seat of your pants.....One of my many teachers said" Find a tunes corners, use them to find the rest of what needs to be played, then play". I have found that some of the best musical advice I ever got.
My I'm wordy this AM..... Play long and hard.... R/
Andah1andah2 - Posted - 01/22/2011: 05:33:56
"Hot fiddler from Maine" that wouldn't be me, probably Mudbug or Swing
I can only learn tunes by ear anyway since I've never learned to sight read (I did learn banjo tab once upon a time). I'm getting better at it while at home with the recording there to play back. At jams it is much harder, especially when the tune is being played and I'm trying to hear myself and the speed of the tune is cruising by. Hopefully, I'll get better at that too.
Fiddler - Posted - 01/22/2011: 06:23:11
As you have discovered, this is where the fun is! --- It's that place where you are interacting with the others and creating something that will last only that moment and in that moment. I treasure each time this happens for me.
I think to get to this place of musical Nirvana, two things must co-exist simulataneously - a basic level of proficiency on the instrument and respect for the other musicians. Only then can you become one with the music.
Respecting other musicians means being open to their approach and interpretation of the music. They may use different passing notes or different ornamentation or different bowings. Their phrasing might be a bit different. I frequently hear things that others do that catch my ear and incorporate into my playing.
My basic motte: Have fun!
carlb - Posted - 01/22/2011: 07:21:16
This is my two cents about bringing new tunes into a jam. First, it needs to be a tune that people can pick up on the fly; people who try to introduce new complicated tunes are known as "jam busters". Second, while not essential, but it's really helpful if at least two fiddlers know the tune. This really seems to speed up the process of the entire jam picking up the tune. Examples that did work: I introduced "Can You Dance Tobacco Hill" ; a friend brought "Flying Over England"; "Cheat River", a tune I learned from "Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife". Examples that don't work: "Camp Chase" (from French Carpenter), "Polly Put the Kettle On (from Manco Sneed or Marcus Martin), "Walk Chalk Chicken" (from Melvin Wine; however, now many of us know the tune (more then 4), so it does get played).
bsed - Posted - 01/22/2011: 07:30:53
I remember when I could finally throw the "book" away and play w/o it, my ability to learn on the fly really took off! (I also had the same experience w/ the banjo. Get rid of the tab and just try to listen to where the notes are).
So there's two main tasks you need to accomplish when learning to play by ear:
*Where are the notes (and what are they),
*Where are the changes in bow direction.
After you start playing a few tunes aurally, you find that you can listen to recordings (not videos) and you can hear where the bow is changing direction.
Speaking of videos, I don't want to down play the importance of also watching what experienced fiddlers do!
And then you might start making the connection between changes of bow direction and some of the common riffs or shuffles that lots of tunes share.
Start hitting some of the notes while playing an unfamiliar tune in a jam by listening for the important notes, like the note that the tune begins on or ends on (A part or B part). Then you start filling in other "important" notes, like the 3rd & 5th degrees of the scale.
Edited by - bsed on 01/22/2011 07:34:35
ajisai - Posted - 01/22/2011: 07:59:25
quote:
Originally posted by bj
If they're rigid about it, it might end up vacuuming (as ajisai would say!) But if each can modify their version slightly to blend into what they're hearing . . . and you've got people who don't know the tune who are picking things up here and there. Blending in. Playing skeletally, but fitting.
LAUGH. Yes, that's exactly the way ajisai would describe it.
A couple of times lately I've been playing with people who play tune versions different from mine and in one case I found myself playing like the person next to me without making any conscious decision to do it. It was kind of a cool and satisfying feeling.
In the other case, when I realized what was happening, I switched over and added something that I hope contributed to the mix. It feels like that kind of thing forces me to stretch and I like it.
I'm finding now that I'm kind of bored playing familiar tunes over and over in the same way with a big group. It's not that it's a bad thing. I learned a lot doing it early on and it's still good practice. It's just that I'm moving into a new way of thinking about playing. What I really enjoy now is playing tunes I don't know on the sidelines with people who make it hard to keep up. That's when I feel energized. I like a challenge.
forestabri - Posted - 01/22/2011: 08:10:20
In my very limited experience I've noticed that there are some who will try and some who will not venture beyond what they absolutely know. In my one experience playing with an old time band jam, I played a tune thinking "anyone this good can play anything" but was surprised when the fiddler said "nope, too complicated". So I guess you have to show the framework of crooked tunes if you introduce them at a jam? I'm learning "Five Miles" (Clyde Davenport) and would not even dare to just play this without some explainin' first! But yeah, people who pick things up quick are mucho fun! That's where I want to be eventually. And tunelists? Bah! Tried that, still write em down, but rarely use it.
Physicslawyer - Posted - 01/22/2011: 09:10:17
I agree with the original post completely. Being able to play spontaneously based on what you are listening to is a noble goal. I didn't know that you could play a song a hundred different ways before listening to old time music and listening to some people who know a lot more than I do about such things.
We went to a jam session last weekend (my husband and I went to watch since I am no where near being able to play well enough to join these people, at least on fiddle, which is the goal). The way this particular session was set up, the participants were up front and miked and there was actually a large audience. The event was held at a senior center (which was a very nice giving thing to do because the people there truly appreciated the music). The way that it worked, people signed a list to lead a song and then they went up and either just started playing some song and announced a key, or announced the song. Many of the songs, at least half, were unfamiliar songs, many songs that the person composed and the other musicians weren't familar with.
What happened after was quite amazing- people who had never heard a song before just instantly started playing along. And, when this one man came up and started singing a song he wrote, after a minute, he shouted "fiddle!" and wouldn't you know it but one of the fiddle players just started to play a solo based around a melody that he had never heard before. I thought that was really impressive. It must be nice to be able to do something like that and is something I would love to be able to do in the future. So, your point is well taken at least at this end.
I think one way you can start to learn how to do this is just turn on a bluegrass station (or whatever style of music you like) and play along. You will most likely hear songs you are not familiar with and will have to figure out the key and how to play backing for it as well as add some melody lines. I have been doing this on mandolin since I am familiar with guitar chord changes and am finding it an easier place to begin.
Edited by - Physicslawyer on 01/22/2011 09:13:09
bj - Posted - 01/22/2011: 09:37:28
quote:
*Where are the changes in bow direction.
This is important in refining a tune. I don't think it's as important in learning a tune on the fly, if you are a downbow fiddler. I have a stock downbow thing that happens without thought as I'm picking up a tune on the fly, and the bowing sorta just . . . happens. Downbow the downbeat. Is it the best sounding bowing for any tune? Sometimes it works okay skeletally as is, sometimes it needs just a bit more but it's nearly always a good basis to build on. It's a good skeleton to hang stuff on later on as you get better with the tune. I've heard other fiddlers do similar but using nashville shuffle as their skeleton, so there is more than one way to skin that cat. Once there's a method to your rhythmic bowing, I think this all becomes more intuitive.
It's the rare tune that stumps me on BASIC bowing. Actually I just started learning a tune and am totally confounded with getting the bowing working on a skeletal level, and was absolutely SHOCKED to realize that it's the first time that's happened in a VERY long time, like probably well over a year. Most tunes just aren't that complex at a skeletal level, once you have the method in place.
My teacher told me downbowing would make it easier for me. He was SO right!
quote:
Start hitting some of the notes while playing an unfamiliar tune in a jam by listening for the important notes, like the note that the tune begins on or ends on (A part or B part). Then you start filling in other "important" notes, like the 3rd & 5th degrees of the scale.
I tell our beginner jammers to start by finding the OPEN notes and playing them when they happen. If we have a lot of beginners I usually start in either the key of D or A, since that ensures more open string playing. Once a beginner jammer susses out the open notes, then they can find the notes on either side of those open notes and start to fill in the holes between. I also tell them to listen for pieces of the key scale and fill them in where they happen. That's another piece they usually can grasp fairly easily. As they learn more tunes, they gain more phrase vocabulary to slot in here and there, and things become easier, there are less gaps to fill.
And yes, I do mix up common tunes with the more uncommon ones. That way newer people or people new to our jam will have some tunes they don't have to think as much about. Makes for less frustration and more fun.
quote:
This is my two cents about bringing new tunes into a jam. First, it needs to be a tune that people can pick up on the fly; people who try to introduce new complicated tunes are known as "jam busters".
I do agree that this can be problematical, but I also think it depends on the people who happen to be in attendance. Yes, very notey hornpipes may not be the best tunes to introduce as new tunes. Ditto on very squirrelly crooked tunes, or tunes with exceptionally odd chord structures. However, if that particular night of the jam, it's all top players who show up, I wouldn't discount giving one of those tunes a try at a slower pace, with the understanding that if everyone train wrecks, we'll go back to the tunelist and breakdowns. I think all this stuff is situational. I purposely, at an event, go looking for the jam circle where some really good players are playing all the squirrelly tunes I've never heard. Do I get them all? No. But I'm constantly surprised at how much I can pick up and do pick up. And there are a lot of players who are a whole lot better at it than I am. I agree that in most jams following your general guidelines will make it easier, but sometimes that envelope can be pushed.
Some of my jammers who go to other jams in the general area have said that there are a lot of local jams where introducing ANY new tune is discouraged, even if it's a relatively simple one. And those same players cite our openness for expanding the tunelist as the reason they prefer our jam.
quote:
Hopefully, I'll get better at that too.
You will. Doing it is the best way to learn it. It doesn't happen overnight, but when you do pick up a tune at a jam it'll be such a huge EUREKA moment, it will make all the hard work worth it! Play along with jam recordings at home. It'll make it easier. Even better if they're recordings of your local jam.
quote:
BJ..Thats when it becomes PLAYING... when folks know enough about their instruments and music to " go with it". Definately becomes some of the best of times.
quote:
As you have discovered, this is where the fun is!
An emphatic yes to both!
Physicslawyer - Posted - 01/22/2011: 09:47:26
Does anyone have any advice on how to go from "playing by the numbers" where you learn from sheet music to actually doing what BJ is talking about? Thanks!
Swing - Posted - 01/22/2011: 10:25:55
quote:
Hot fiddler from Maine" that wouldn't be me, probably Mudbug or Swing
Well, that ain't me!
Play Happy
Swing - Posted - 01/22/2011: 10:26:19
quote:
Hot fiddler from Maine" that wouldn't be me, probably Mudbug or Swing
Well, that ain't me!
Play Happy
bj - Posted - 01/22/2011: 10:37:29
Actually, I'm gonna quote myself--
quote:
I tell our beginner jammers to start by finding the OPEN notes and playing them when they happen. If we have a lot of beginners I usually start in either the key of D or A, since that ensures more open string playing. Once a beginner jammer susses out the open notes, then they can find the notes on either side of those open notes and start to fill in the holes between. I also tell them to listen for pieces of the key scale and fill them in where they happen. That's another piece they usually can grasp fairly easily. As they learn more tunes, they gain more phrase vocabulary to slot in here and there, and things become easier, there are less gaps to fill.
You can pick some simple tunes, such as Angeline the Baker, Old Joe Clark, etc. and go to our download section here on the hangout and download the mp3 version you like. Best if it's a tune in A or D for starters, and then stick in that key for awhile.
Now, just play the tune on the windows media player or in the amazing slowdowner. You can pick a moderate speed for playback, but don't let it be too slow, since the idea is to eventually work at jam speeds. Now follow my advice above. Most tunes in the key of D will end on the D note, usually in both the A and B parts. So you already have ONE open note you'll find. Three note scale runs beginning or ending on D should be easy to hear, and many tunes have them. Play them when they happen. Now work at filling the rest of the gaps.
Do this for awhile every single day, and work up to a half dozen tunes in one key before switching keys. You'll find you start to pick things up easier the more you do it.
One other thing you might find helpful is learning to hear the intervals and common structures. 1-3-5 is a common structure, and then there are the runs-- 1-2-3 and 3-2-1. Oh Susannah starts with a 1-2-3, and Mary Had a Little Lamb starts with a 3-2-1. Someplace on the web is a list of common songs most people know that start out their first two notes with a specific interval, but I don't have it in my bookmarks. To give a couple examples, Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire is a 1-8. Happy Birthday is 1-1-2. Learn to hear those intervals and common structures and where they are in each key and you'll be able to slot them in when they happen in a tune when playing on the fly.
Edited by - bj on 01/22/2011 10:42:49
Jolie Louisianne - Posted - 01/22/2011: 10:37:53
One idea maybe, once you get kind of comfortable with where the notes are on your fiddle, play a simple song on your cd or computer a number of times. Once you get the tune down pretty good, start improvising alittle as you play along with the cd. It is good to record yourself doing this beacuse you may come up with something cool and immediatley forgot what you just did, and to see how what you do fits with the song. I don't know about other types of fiddle music at all, but in Cajun and Creole music, you often have a second person playing the same song, either playing rythmic chords or the melody lower then the lead or some combination of things. So for cajun fiddle, you can learn some seconding with chords/ rythems, then build on this slowly. Even if other types of fiddle music don't have this in their tradition, you could use the idea as a stepping off point for developing imporvations that are ok in that tradition.
bj - Posted - 01/22/2011: 10:40:16
Swing, you ARE a hot fiddler from Maine, but you aren't the individual I spoke about . . . who found our jam on folkjam.org and showed up one night. I'd be tickled to death if you did though! I love your playing.
Swing - Posted - 01/22/2011: 11:24:01
bj... if I get the chance to come to PA I wil definately try to stop in your jam... at the rate I have been traveling as of late, it seems that I could be anywhere any week..
Play Happy
bj - Posted - 01/22/2011: 12:28:57
Just warn us if you can, Swing, so I can make sure Rick (aka chippyvan) is available. He knows many more rags than I do, which would lend themselves nicely to your playing style.
catty - Posted - 01/22/2011: 12:43:14
quote:
Originally posted by UsuallyPickin
Find a tunes corners, use them to find the rest of what needs to be played, then play...
Very evocative--makes me think of all kinds of things. I like it. One of my more recent projects is playing keys in a reggae band--something I'd never done previously: its role is to provide accents, embellishments, and reinforcements, more than anything. In this, it can create much with very little. A nice exercise in "blending in. Playing skeletally, but fitting."
With regard to fiddling, I find it useful to get inside the essence of the tune. I might add, to BJ's items above, "skeletally, but
lilting."
Edited by - catty on 01/22/2011 12:46:37
Andah1andah2 - Posted - 01/22/2011: 12:47:53
I haven't done well with finding open string notes or filling in the gaps with notes I know. I have always done better with listening to small parts of a phrase and then mimicking them, humming them out loud or in my mind then noodling it out on the fiddle. Adding more to the end of what I've got until I get a whole part down. Then I tackle the B par the same way. I have gotten faster at this with time.
bj - Posted - 01/22/2011: 14:30:09
quote:
With regard to fiddling, I find it useful to get inside the essence of the tune. I might add, to BJ's items above, "skeletally, but lilting."
Oh, yes!
catty - Posted - 01/22/2011: 15:20:36
Don't wish to go too far afield here...but on another forum, I've been enjoying discussions concerning pedagogy, which I've already indicated is something I consider important in developing musicality (which we impart in a fiddle jam).
Such a difference exists between the rigid orthodoxy in the Western orchestral tradition, and folk traditions. I believe that a correlation may exist between musical aesthetic tradiitons with particular rhythmic emphasis, (such as dance), and higher degrees of internailizing musicality, of which I regard rhythmic sense as being most fundamental.
Minim Miser - Posted - 01/22/2011: 16:25:00
Unfortunately, I think there can be quite a difference between music you make to give musicians a good time and music you make to give an audience a good time. Possibly I've been in too many audiences where the former was happening and not the latter ;-)
I don't deny the obvious pleasure there is in improvisation (which I'm not really good enough for yet). But I also see many musicians who get real pleasure from a well-rehearsed and polished performance designed to really inspire an audience. By the nature of such things, these tend to be pretty similar every time they're performed, but if you look at some of the top contemporary performers, I think you'll find that's the way they mostly work.
So I think there are more ways than improvisation to enjoy playing a fiddle.
bj - Posted - 01/22/2011: 16:30:39
Creating music and performing music are two separate skill sets. I much prefer the former. Funny thing is that, IMHO, most audiences, given a choice, will too.
catty - Posted - 01/22/2011: 16:42:02
That's what I like most about playing for dances--where even the "audience" participates in the reciprocating process of the musical creation.
My favorite musical experience is playing for dancers--of any type. I used to play a lot of flamenco guitar, and I currently play salsa, reggae, and for bellydancers and contradances. There's something very tangible gained from this level of musical interaction.
Edited by - catty on 01/22/2011 16:57:51
rafa - Posted - 01/22/2011: 17:17:04
I try to explain to my learning fiddlers to learn there pentatonic scales. That way they don`t have to struggle with trying to fiil in the gaps. They can be mostly right on and work with rythym. Gives them a good idea of being part of it. See what key the tune is in and bounce around with the pent. scale and create. Then add notes that are good for the tune after that.
FiddleJammer - Posted - 01/22/2011: 20:45:25
quote:
Originally posted by Physicslawyer
Does anyone have any advice on how to go from "playing by the numbers" where you learn from sheet music to actually doing what BJ is talking about? Thanks!
We learn to walk by crawling, then walking. We learn to talk by babbling and then talking. We learn to fiddle by faltering a little and staying at it until we can play by ear. So, we need to tolerate sounding less than perfect. There are ways to diminish 'wrong' notes and accentuate 'right' notes. Don't give up.
Terri
fiddlejammer.com
Fiddler - Posted - 01/23/2011: 05:28:40
Music for musicians (creating) vs. music for an audience or dancers (performing)
As bj commented these are different skill sets. Creating music is not necessarily improvisation. It includes just enjoying playing music together and trying new things - learning new skills while staying within the boundaries of the tune.
Sometimes an "audience" will enjoy hearing a group of people play together in a "jam" setting. They enjoy the rawness and the excitement and being a witness to the creation process. ( Or are they just waiting for the proverbial "train wreck"?) They may even find themselves being a bit envious that they too are not in the middle of this experience of creativity.
On the other hand when I go to a performance, I want to see/hear the best that the group or individual has to offer. I want to hear their interpretation of the music. I don't want to hear them struggling with arrangements or with their instrument. I want to feel a connection with the performer(s) and the music. This includes having a "stage presence" that keeps me engaged with them.
If it is a dance, I want to hear music that drives the dance figures with good phrasing.
Most of us who have posted, including me, seem to lean towards the "creation" aspect and enjoy the interaction among musicians in an informal setting. However, performing can be fun, too! It is somewhat intoxicating to be in front of an audience! It is a huge ego boost when you have presented your very best "show" and you are acknowledged for it.
This old joke has some wisdom:
Q. How do you get to Carnegie Hall?
A. Practice. Practice. Practice.
bj - Posted - 01/23/2011: 08:02:28
quote:
However, performing can be fun, too! It is somewhat intoxicating to be in front of an audience! It is a huge ego boost when you have presented your very best "show" and you are acknowledged for it.
But therein lies a trap. The accolades can lead to either the ego problems that plague some band members, OR it can lead to a striving for "perfection" and that can often lead to over-rehearsal and the end of anything that sounds fresh or spontaneous.
catty - Posted - 01/23/2011: 09:02:50
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddler
It is somewhat intoxicating to be in front of an audience! It is a huge ego boost when you have presented your very best "show" and you are acknowledged for it.
IME, this is the best experience: when the band is "feeling it" and playing with expressiveness--and the audience is feeling it too. The synergy is tangible.
fiddlinang - Posted - 01/23/2011: 13:44:14
BJ, you have just described what for me is the whole point of fiddling. It's the difference between reading from a script and speaking your own mind.
I come from a "dotty" background - I've read music all my life so when I picked up the violin as an adult, I naturally gravitated towards written music as it felt familiar and safe. But I then began to realise that I learned tunes much more quickly if I learned them by ear - even quicker if it was from a person rather than a recording - and quickest in a jam situation where there's a bit of pressure to get it right. The more I did this, the more I could feel myself breaking free from the dots, and the further away that I got, the more I wanted to detach myself completely from anything written or prescribed. Being able to improvise "on the fly" is the next step in this adventure.
At our jam, we play a lot of old time tunes and that's great fun. But what's most exciting for me is when somebody sings a bluegrass song (or any song for that matter) and passes the breaks round. That's where the big challenge is, and when I get to try to put all my home improvisation practice to the test. I usually make a complete mess of it but that just makes it all the more exciting when I do manage to pull it off!
Now, being able to play "on the fly" AND to with sensitivity, skill, and communication with your fellow musicians - well, I think that really is the holy grail of playing music.
I know I've mentioned it before, but I'll mention it again here: "The Inner Game Of Music" has some great things to say about this subject.
A fine thread you've started here, BJ!
Fiddler - Posted - 01/23/2011: 15:01:18
I'm going to admit something here -- I've been invading singer/songwriter circles! (I can hear the gasps!) Been doing it for over a year now on a weekly basis. (~more gasps~) There are some incredible guitarists and singers who show up to these sessions. Most are doing fairly familar folk/singer/songwriter material (John Prine, Steve Goodman, etc.) or country/western (Merle Travis, Hank Williams, etc.) and some original pieces. Each Monday evening between 5 and 12 musicians show up - all guitars except me. Yes, I take my turn in the circle and play a fiddle tune. They do ok at backup.
So why do I go? I was initially hesitant, but I went at the encouragement of my wife. My goals were basically to improve my skills at picking up melodies and to improve my skills at backup harmonies. I have noticed significant improvement in doing this. I don't go to be the star or to show off. We each respect each other and what we each bring to the session. Most of the time I play with a mute to hide my mistakes.
A side benefit has been that these folks are just nice people and enjoy playing and sharing music. Most tell me that playing behind a fiddle tune streches them by pushing them outside of their comfort zone. This is In the same way that my playing a lead break on song I don't know scares the living daylights out of me. I mess up. They mess up. We have fun.
So, here's another suggestion to learn how to pick up tunes on the fly - a folk song circle.
bj - Posted - 01/23/2011: 15:11:12
quote:
It's the difference between reading from a script and speaking your own mind.
Wow. I wish I'd said that. Thank you!
ChickenMan - Posted - 01/24/2011: 19:47:49
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddler
I'm going to admit something here -- I've been invading singer/songwriter circles! (I can hear the gasps!) Been doing it for over a year now on a weekly basis. (~more gasps~) There are some incredible guitarists and singers who show up to these sessions. Most are doing fairly familar folk/singer/songwriter material (John Prine, Steve Goodman, etc.) or country/western (Merle Travis, Hank Williams, etc.) and some original pieces. Each Monday evening between 5 and 12 musicians show up - all guitars except me. Yes, I take my turn in the circle and play a fiddle tune. They do ok at backup.
So why do I go? I was initially hesitant, but I went at the encouragement of my wife. My goals were basically to improve my skills at picking up melodies and to improve my skills at backup harmonies. I have noticed significant improvement in doing this. I don't go to be the star or to show off. We each respect each other and what we each bring to the session. Most of the time I play with a mute to hide my mistakes.
A side benefit has been that these folks are just nice people and enjoy playing and sharing music. Most tell me that playing behind a fiddle tune streches them by pushing them outside of their comfort zone. This is In the same way that my playing a lead break on song I don't know scares the living daylights out of me. I mess up. They mess up. We have fun.
So, here's another suggestion to learn how to pick up tunes on the fly - a folk song circle.
Your goals are another reason I went from one bluegrass band to another after someone told me of a band was looking for a fiddler right after I quit the first bluegrass band. The new band has a mandolin player (I used to pull double duty fid/mado) and I get to actually play back up chords and get a whole new set of melodies to learn. Plus, tunes I already knew are being played in different keys than I'm used to, thus giving me even more opportunities to work on new the skill sets.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/24/2011: 20:32:55
quote:
Originally posted by bj
Creating music and performing music are two separate skill sets. I much prefer the former. Funny thing is that, IMHO, most audiences, given a choice, will too.
But they don't HAVE to be mutually exclusive. It's not and either/or, it's a both/and situation. Performance skills can help you create music on the fly that's on a higher level,
and creativity creates an elasticity in your performing that enhances it and helps you recover (creatively) from mistakes.
Keeping a short list of tunes that you polish for performance helps make certain things like improved tone and intonation part
of your normal playing... after a while, ALL of your tunes get lifted to a higher level of tone and intonation.
Jamming forces flexibility, of course, because there are so many unpredictabilities in it.
Yes, audiences prefer the creativity IF the tone and intonation don't take a hit to get it.
Screeches, squawks and dubious pitches are NOT popular.
fiddlepogo - Posted - 01/24/2011: 20:48:45
quote:
Originally posted by Fiddler
I'm going to admit something here -- I've been invading singer/songwriter circles! (I can hear the gasps!) Been doing it for over a year now on a weekly basis. (~more gasps~) There are some incredible guitarists and singers who show up to these sessions. Most are doing fairly familar folk/singer/songwriter material (John Prine, Steve Goodman, etc.) or country/western (Merle Travis, Hank Williams, etc.) and some original pieces. Each Monday evening between 5 and 12 musicians show up - all guitars except me. Yes, I take my turn in the circle and play a fiddle tune. They do ok at backup.
So why do I go? I was initially hesitant, but I went at the encouragement of my wife. My goals were basically to improve my skills at picking up melodies and to improve my skills at backup harmonies. I have noticed significant improvement in doing this. I don't go to be the star or to show off. We each respect each other and what we each bring to the session. Most of the time I play with a mute to hide my mistakes.
A side benefit has been that these folks are just nice people and enjoy playing and sharing music. Most tell me that playing behind a fiddle tune streches them by pushing them outside of their comfort zone. This is In the same way that my playing a lead break on song I don't know scares the living daylights out of me. I mess up. They mess up. We have fun.
So, here's another suggestion to learn how to pick up tunes on the fly - a folk song circle.
I've been doing this for several years now, and the effects on my playing have ONLY been good. It's very similar
to jamming with bluegrass players except:
1. The tunes tend to go a bit slower (a plus if you're new at improvising on the fiddle)
2. You may be the only lead instrument, so you get more breaks and a more intense workout.
3. The melodies may actually be more familiar because some of the songs got a fair amount of mainstream radio play, unlike
most Bluegrass tunes.
4. The jam leaders and audiences appreciate the fiddle because it adds a nice smooth layer over all of that picky-picky sounding stuff, and if you stay tight with the singer, you can help keep errant guitarists in line, because they can all hear you as you soar above the guitars.
5. Since you don't have as much competition, you can escape that one-upsmanship thing that can happen in bluegrass,
and just play what best serves the song.
6. Surprisingly, even though the tempos are slower, somehow after two weekends of folk jamming earlier in the month,
the bluegrass jam at the end of the month doesn't seem nearly as intimidating.
bj - Posted - 01/24/2011: 20:50:22
quote:
Screeches, squawks and dubious pitches are NOT popular.
Ya know, you keep saying that. And I admit I don't often suffer from squeaks, screetches and dubious pitches but rarely anymore. But I've seen players who are playing heart and soul WITH all those things and the audience is totally appreciative.
I think playing your dang heart out can overcome a lot of other stuff. And personally I'd much rather listen to someone playing their dang heart out with an occasional squeak or flat note, than to someone who is so overrehearsed that it all sounds like the fiddle version of muzak.
Of course, if you can play your dang heart out and play well while you're doing so, it's the best of all worlds.
Re the two talents not being musically exclusive, your point is taken, BUT . . . and it's a huge BUT . . . most of the bands I hear perform seldom leave anything to chance, seldom leave any room for "interpretation" or for playing any bit of anything on the fly during a "performance" and I swear it's been ages since I've heard anyone (except at jams) who doesn't sound so canned and overrehearsed that it becomes dead boring to me to listen to. Why? Because much as the performer is putting the happy face on, he or she is as bored with performing the dang material exactly that way over and over and over again as I am listening to it. And anyone with any empathy and musical sense can pick up on that. Lucky for them, most club owners and bar patrons can't, or they wouldn't be getting paid to play.
alaskafiddler - Posted - 01/25/2011: 01:04:46
quote:
Originally posted by fiddlepogo
Keeping a short list of tunes that you polish for performance helps make certain things like improved tone and intonation part
of your normal playing... after a while, ALL of your tunes get lifted to a higher level of tone and intonation.
Yes, audiences prefer the creativity IF the tone and intonation don't take a hit to get it.
Screeches, squawks and dubious pitches are NOT popular.
How would improved tone (whatever that means) and intonation get lifted to a higher level (whatever that means) - or have anything to do with creativity? How would they take a hit? You will play in tune (or not) based on how well you can play in tune, whether from a very static set of notes and rhythm, or with improvising. When you improvise, the finger placement does not change. Screeches, squawks and dubious pitches do not gain any popularity by keeping it to a static performance.
mudbug - Posted - 01/25/2011: 13:14:07
To get the full charge, ya gotta be willing to go out on a limb and maybe fall flat on your keester. Ya gotta be willing to fly or die.
mudbug - Posted - 01/25/2011: 13:17:34
quote:
Originally posted by catty
: "you don't know ####, but you make it sound good."
Can I get this on a t-shirt?
catty - Posted - 01/25/2011: 13:55:21
Okay by me 
I was thinking about tunes' "corners" Saturday night while sitting in with a contradance group I'd not played with before. At a dance, it's pretty easy to sense a number of feeling relationships with the music: the larger structure of the figures in the repeated tunes reveal the broader contours of the music. It's a bit like a conch shell--from the intricate concentrated figures of the fiddler's fingers unfolding through the passages of the players and into the undulating patterns of the dancers. Like the dancers on the floor, but more acutely, the players on stage are sensitive to nuances in the music--looking for articulations for cues to accentuate flow and dramatic development. Many such call and response interactions are occurring--it's an environment full of interplay, dialogue and vitality.
Concerning learning new music, contributing interesting elements in a jam, or finding inspiration for improvisation, in a way this is akin to another concept: becoming familiar with the lyrical content and vocal arrangements in a song, and using this as a basis from which to develop improvisations--something typically heard among jazz soloists.
tonyelder - Posted - 01/25/2011: 14:09:22
I don’t disagree with spirit of anything I’ve read, but I would like to add something that I feel needs to be said.
I think it is a mistake to say that songs or tunes that are well rehearsed and or arranged will automatically become sterile and lifeless – with no room for creativity.
In my experience – most of the time the exact opposite is true. The more familiar a group of players become with each other and the material they are playing together - the easier it becomes to compliment, blend, and accent each other – and really start to take things to another creative level. Sometimes the best music is found when individuals stop playing as individuals and find a path that merges their efforts into one collective voice to express the emotion. That can be a very powerful experience. And – more often than not – that usually takes some rehearsing in order to find it.
IMO - lifeless music and lack of creativity doesn’t have anything to do with how well or how little the material is rehearsed.
It’s really more about musicians becoming complacent with what they are doing or how they are playing – becoming too satisfied with the idea that what you are doing is enough, losing your motivation for find better and different ways to makes things work. That kind of complacency can strike anywhere - even OT fiddlers playing on the fly - as well as any other musician in any other genre, whether on stage or at a jam. It doesn't matter. It's the mind set that says something like - "I'm satisfied with just playing scales over the chords – that’s all you really need to know to get by."
99.9% attitude.
Edited by - tonyelder on 01/25/2011 14:14:21
catty - Posted - 01/25/2011: 14:14:17
Makes sense to me
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