fiddleflow - Posted - 09/11/2010:  23:46:14

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I am wondering if someone can tell me the TECHNICAL difference between BG fiddling and oldtime fiddling. It seems to me oldtime fiddling seem to emphasize more on melody and less ornaments, while BG fiddling has more ornaments and maybe chording. I like songs played mostly on melody of the song, and that is why I chose oldtime fiddling. It might be similar to BG banjo, which has a lot of chording, and oldtime clawhammer has few chording, sometimes none, but mostly meldoy oriented music. Any suggestions?. Thanks.

rosinhead - Posted - 09/12/2010:  06:17:19

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I've always thought of Old-Time fiddling to be more strict on the melody side of things. It's origins, as most know, go back to dance accompaniment and many times it was a lone fiddle player. Gradually other instruments such as the dulcimer and claw-hammer style banjo made an appearance, but for the most part the fiddle drove the melody. I think you are right in saying that bluegrass fiddle is a bit more ornamental too. In old-time you just see hear more of the melody and there are not usually the trading of lead breaks like bluegrass. Old-Time makes more use of drones in my opinion too. That's my two cents.


Rosinhead

oldtimestrings - Posted - 09/12/2010:  07:01:00

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Very complex question. A thorough response would take a book or two, not a post on an internet forum. Yes, we can generalize in the broadest way about OT fiddling sticking more to the melody and having more independent rhythmic drive, BG fiddling taking more liberties with the melody and bringing in more outside influences (swing, blues, etc.). We could also talk about differences based on tone and technique (more cross-tuning and droning in Appalachian OT, more vibrato and upper-position playing in BG). But ultimately these are huge generalizations that have so many exceptions and qualifiers as to be of very little real help in understanding the differences. And don't forget that some of the early BG fiddlers were essentially OT fiddlers brought into the BG band context (where their styles were undoubtedly modified), and that some OT fiddlers displayed many of the traits we associate with BG fiddling even before there was such a thing (e.g., Arthur Smith, Clayton McMichen).

In short, this is a great question and a fascinating contrast to consider, but don't expect a satisfying answer in this FHO context. This takes years of study to comprehend.

OTJunky - Posted - 09/12/2010:  07:31:19

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I basically agree with oldtimestrings. Bluegrass has been around long enough now that it has its "periods" and its differing "styles".

As oldtimestrings says many of the early Bluegrass fiddlers like Curley Ray Cline (Ralph Stanley) and Paul Warren (Flatt & Scruggs) were basically just good old time fiddlers.

Bill Monroe's band always took a slightly different tack on it with early fiddlers like Chubby Wise eventually replaced by Vassar Clements. Bill Monroe and his various fiddlers were always pushing toward a high level of technique and of improvisation.

Monroe had strong opinions about what he wanted to be played - and there are many stories of his "showing" his fiddlers what he wanted using his mandolin. The Mandolin is more of a "chordal" instrument than the fiddle though it's tuned the same way - when the fiddle's in standard tuning.

In Bluegrass and in Swing fiddling much of the improvisation is done from within "chordal" shapes. While the fiddler can't hold a 4-note chord in the same way a mandolin player can, he/she can nevertheless visualize the chordal shape on the fingerboard and change it as the underlying chords change. These shapes and the transitions between them provide a firm basis for improvisation for the fiddler - just as they do for a mandolin player.

The shapes anchor the root, third and fifth of the chord and also provide access to 6ths and 9ths that are used to give Bluegrass fiddling many of its "Hot Licks" often in combination with the diminished 5th and flat 3rds that are often used in Blues guitar playing.

So Bluegrass fiddling relies on a richer harmonic pallet and usually requires a more developed technique than old time fiddling - especially since Bluegrass singers often insist on keys that highlights their vocal strength - like B, F and E.

I often think it's somewhat ironic though that Kenny Baker - the man whose fiddling Monroe liked best - is basically an extraordinally good old time fiddler whose fiddling is based on clean noting, good tone, and straightfoward, exceptionally well executed bowing - rather than depending on a lot of "hot licks".

--OTJ

Teufelhunden54 - Posted - 09/12/2010:  08:21:40

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I think of Bluegrass fiddling as the fiddler taking a "break" or a turn playing runs, fills, and licks around the melody, with a little melody being played to keep it as part of the tune or song. All bluegrass instruments play a support role around the singer or the tune. The mandolin, because of Bill Monroe ( and old Bill defines Bluegrass, in fact he is and will always be Bluegrass.

bj - Posted - 09/12/2010:  09:17:16

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quote:

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I am wondering if someone can tell me the TECHNICAL difference between BG fiddling and oldtime fiddling. It seems to me oldtime fiddling seem to emphasize more on melody and less ornaments, while BG fiddling has more ornaments and maybe chording.

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There is one HUGE difference you and others haven't even touched on-- the rhythmic emphasis in Oldtime, that magic groove that sets feet dancing. Some call it playing drums with the bow. It was ever so necessary when a lone fiddler was driving a roomful of dancers. Though early bluegrass had some of it since many of the fiddlers also played oldtime, bluegrass moved away from it, and became vocally driven, and was developed more for a sit down or radio or TV audience.

coelhoe - Posted - 09/12/2010:  09:26:08

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Bluegrass, at least as Monroe created it, was always a vocal music first, with instrumental interludes.

But it is often overlooked that most of that first generation of BG fiddlers: Charlie Cline, Chubby Wise, Howdy Forrester, Kenny Baker and many others, also spent much of their professional careers playing in CW or western swing bands where the work was steady and more profitable. A more recent case is the very fine, but rarely mentioned BG fiddler, Mac Magaha, who worked for many years with Don Reno and Red Smiley and then became part of the show and stage band for Porter Wagoner.

The movement from BG to CW and to swing genres brought a sharing of technique and melodic improv that was fruitful for each of the styles, and I think marks the difference between players such as Paul Warren and Kenny Baker.

fiddleflow - Posted - 09/12/2010:  13:23:44

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Thanks bj, I forgot the right hand rhythum, you are right, there might be similarities between the right hand rhythum and drumming. Could there be relationship between African drumming and the right hand motion of oldtime fiddling?. I don't know.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/12/2010:  13:58:57

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddleflow

I am wondering if someone can tell me the TECHNICAL difference between BG fiddling and oldtime fiddling. It seems to me oldtime fiddling seem to emphasize more on melody and less ornaments, while BG fiddling has more ornaments and maybe chording. I like songs played mostly on melody of the song, and that is why I chose oldtime fiddling. It might be similar to BG banjo, which has a lot of chording, and oldtime clawhammer has few chording, sometimes none, but mostly meldoy oriented music. Any suggestions?. Thanks.

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Depends on what you mean by ornaments... Old Time has ornaments of a sort.
But they stick a lot closer to the melody, so it's semi-recognizable.
In Bluegrass, they might start with the melody, but especially toward the end, you might not recognize what they've done to it. I would tend to call it improvisation rather than ornamentation.
That being said, it's really almost as if Bluegrass fiddling CONTAINS a kind of "Old Time cleaned up and on steroids" as one of it's flavors, especially when they're doing a fiddle tune. They also sometimes use drones in a song in a way that at least evokes Old Time fiddle.

But another major flavor is BLUES, which is often used for fills at the end of a melody line, but also for complete solos.
Another aspect of Blues influence it the use of slides, which are used a lot more in Bluegrass fiddling than in Old Time (with some exceptions)
Bluegrass fiddlers often emphasize raw technique, especially SPEED.
Often the bowing patterns are quite basic, often just sawstroke, Nashville Shuffle or Georgia Shuffle, but done VERY fast and VERY clean.

There is also a subtle rhythmic thing going on where the fiddle kind of floats above the rhythm instruments kind of like a rock lead guitar or blues guitar soloist might do, where they are deliberately not playing on the beat. It's not WAY off the beat, just a little.

In contrast, in Old Time the fiddle very seldom does anything like that, since it's dance music and the fiddle is the #1 lead instrument, and is communicating the dance rhythms to the dancers.

In Bluegrass, the Scruggs style banjo is the rhythmic engine,
and the fiddle is just the icing on the cake.

In Old Time, the FIDDLE is usually the rhythmic engine, and there IS no icing-
cause it's not cake, it's BREAD!!!

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Edited by - fiddlepogo on 09/12/2010 14:01:15

Califiddler - Posted - 09/12/2010:  16:11:30

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I have thought about this issue a lot. Here are what I see as some of the main TECHNICAL differences between OT and BG fiddle.

Repertoire - OT is mostly fiddle tunes. BG is mostly songs.

Function - OT is basically playing the melody to fiddle tunes. Occasionally you play a harmony part, etc. BG has a lot of different functions: kicking off a song (basically playing an embellished melody); taking an instrumental “break” during a song (can be an embellished melody or get as wild as you want); playing backup and fills behind the singer; playing a harmony part to another instrument; etc.

Keys - Probably 99% of OT fiddle tunes are in the keys of A, D, G and C. Not coincidentally, these are the easiest keys in which to play the fiddle, because of availability of open-string drones. BG includes all of those keys, but also Bb, B, E and F, which are more technically demanding because there are less open strings available.

2 Strings at once - In OT, most of the time that you play two strings at once, you finger one string and play the other string as an open-string drone. In BG, most of the time that you play two strings at once, you finger both strings (a “double stop”). This is much more difficult because you have to get two fingers in tune instead of just one. It’s especially difficult when one of those two fingers is the pinky.

Position - Probably 99% of OT is in first position. Bluegrass frequently uses second (especially for keys like G and C) and 3rd positions, and occasionally even higher positions. This is more technically demanding because the distance between the “frets” gets shorter as you go up the neck, and your brain, ears and fingers have to learn how to maintain good intonation as you switch positions.

Vibrato - OT seems to have vibrato mostly on the waltzes. BG uses a lot more vibrato, including on the medium- and fast-tempo songs, and including on double stops.

All of these are generalizations, and of course there are exceptions. But the bottom line is that, from pretty much every technical standpoint, BG is more technically demanding than OT.

fiddledan - Posted - 09/12/2010:  16:33:02

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BG - performance and stage oriented - it's a "show" first and each one gets a chance to shine.
OT - ensemble playing and dance oriented - we play together and enjoy the subtleties.

play nice,
dan
clawdan.com

fiddleflow - Posted - 09/12/2010:  17:48:13

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Thanks califiddler, you mentioned a lot of good points. How about the origin of the right hand bowing?. Is that unique to oldtime fiddling?.

RobBob - Posted - 09/12/2010:  18:30:28

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I just spent 7 days in Kentucky playing old time and came home today and played a bluegrass gig this evening. The differences in the two styles are extensive. The challenges of the two styles are commensurate and the energy it takes for both is monumental. If you don't know, start listening to both styles. Then you will know. Don't take anyone's word for it, find out for yourself.

frnak - Posted - 09/13/2010:  05:41:04

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wow, this was some really fascinating reading for me. I really enjoyed some of your descriptions here!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 09/13/2010:  14:35:10

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I agree with bj and fiddlepogo - much has to do with the rhythm.

Califiddler - Don't agree that BG is more technically demanding. It's different technical demands. Ever try to really get the bowing (as well as other aspects) like the masters? Many a modern pure BG fiddler cannot (though sometimes only they think they can). As far as repertoire and function, I don't see much of an difference; but OT are not just playing the melody. Some OT is very song oriented, they kick off, they back up songs, they take breaks, and they do embellish melodies. It's just a difference in how they take the break or embellish.

Ornament and improvisation is where some or the difference is. It's in how. I think OT is ornamented and contains improvisation, but it's more in the rhythmic context, whereas BG tends to ornament more in harmonic context . Not sure what you mean chording, I think that you might be referring to BG using more complicated chords, (more like jazz than blues IMO) and they also tend to throw in arpeggios to more define the harmonic space. Much of BG though is single note (one at a time) with occasional double stops. OT IMO employs much more 2 string/note usage, but just simpler chords. Not all OT is playing constant drone, 2 strings at once, and many times rock between the two strings, using the 2 strings at one time for rhythmic emphasis. It's not all an open string drone, requires the same two fingers down as BG. For example many OT fiddlers use d and f# (on A and E string), your fingers have to be just as accurate, and many make a double stop shape with the pinky.

I agree with pogo that many BG fiddlers are just floating over the rhythm, whether playing a fairly straight melody, or improvising over a chord progression. They are articulating the beat differently. That style doesn't sound very complete as solo; it requires backup, at least a guitar.

Shawn Craver - Posted - 09/13/2010:  15:32:05

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There aren't many traditional fiddle tunes in bluegrass past or present. Check out any recording of big three--The Stanley's, Monroe and Flatt and Scruggs. And check out any recording on the current top 40 of bluegrass.

dzen - Posted - 09/13/2010:  15:52:01

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Who was it, I've been trying to remember for a couple days now, who said that bluegrass is just hillbilly jazz? Seems like it was a bluegrass fiddler.

To me, that's the main difference. Bluegrass is one of the numerous band configurations that sprung up in the early 20th century that drew on the jazz world's emphasis on individual, often blues based solos; sometimes improvisational, often technically complex, often outside the melody. Dixieland, big band, western swing bands, Texas/Chicago blues combos, even rock and roll bands, are other offshoots of this trend. (Although I was listening to some square dance fiddling awhile back and could sense a direct line to rock and roll.) Musically, one thing that differentiates bluegrass from the rest of these styles is the inclusion of appalachian fiddle and fiddle tunes. Bluegrass fiddling can borrow elements from practically any of its fellow jazz descended styles.

Old-Time is fantastically vague term, and it's practically impossible for any 20th century music to be free of jazz influence, but it seems like old-time is more melody based with less emphasis on individual soloing.

The upshot is that bluegrass fiddling is more eclectic. I think anyone from Stephane Grappelli to Cyril Stinnett could fiddle in most bluegrass bands and sound fantastic, but to play within any of the old time styles requires a solid grounding in that particular style. (Not to say 2 fiddlers from disparate styles can't sound pretty cool together.)

In contrast to the musical eclectism, bluegrass is more limited as far as instruments. Old-Time can include piano, pipe organ, accordian, concertina, jug, jews harp, guitar, banjo, harmonica, etc., while bluegrass is practically defined by the composition of the band. As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't have bass, guitar, and banjo, and includes anything else other than fiddle, mandolin, or dobro, then it's not bluegrass.

Skunkhound - Posted - 09/13/2010:  16:47:06

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Cant say I disagree with anyone here. All good points.