sinebar - Posted - 08/10/2009:  17:00:58

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I just started playing the fiddle and I like mostly Irish trad and plain ol fiddle music. I read music pretty well and it looks like that most Irish and fiddle music is in the key of "G" and "D"? Does that sound right? I hope this is true because it keeps things simple. That's what I like about Irish trad and fiddle music. It's simple notation wise.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 08/10/2009:  17:51:51

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Yes, most tunes are in those keys. But, Irish music has a lot of ornamentation and bowing techniques you don't see in some notation. If you really like playing Irish music, I strongly suggest you get Peter Cooper's "The Complete Irish Fiddler" book and 2 Cds.

Lots of interesting historical information and detailed instructions on ornamentation and bowing dynamics. This book and the accompanying CDs will teach you HOW to play Irish fiddle tunes. The 2 CDs have all the tunes being played at moderate tempos. This is by far the best instructional on playing Irish fiddle tunes.

I bought a CD from the CDbaby website that will help a person learning to play Irish music. It has just a bodhran playing rhythm tracks for each type of Irish tune. The CD can be most effective used with software like "The Amazing Slow Downer". Playing along with the Irish drum helps you really "get in the groove" and develop a "feel" for playing each type of Irish fiddle tune.

gulfguy

DougD - Posted - 08/10/2009:  17:59:03

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No, I don't think thats right, although I don't know too much about Irish music. The keys you're likely to encounter are A, D, G, C, F and Bb (more rarely), plus the relative minors and modal variants.

bsed - Posted - 08/10/2009:  18:18:12

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Well, exactly! I mean just think of all the tunes that are in Em

Just call me Dwight.

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Edited by - bsed on 08/10/2009 18:18:52

coelhoe - Posted - 08/10/2009:  18:37:55

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More than half of the Celtic tunes I know are in A.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

DougD - Posted - 08/10/2009:  18:39:23

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"Glory in the Meetinghouse?" Actually I think its E Dorian because there's a C# lurking in there somewhere.

What an ingrate, bsed - mocking me after I sent you that rare soundfile! ;>)

sinebar - Posted - 08/10/2009:  19:32:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dick Hauser

Yes, most tunes are in those keys. But, Irish music has a lot of ornamentation and bowing techniques you don't see in some notation. If you really like playing Irish music, I strongly suggest you get Peter Cooper's "The Complete Irish Fiddler" book and 2 Cds.

Lots of interesting historical information and detailed instructions on ornamentation and bowing dynamics. This book and the accompanying CDs will teach you HOW to play Irish fiddle tunes. The 2 CDs have all the tunes being played at moderate tempos. This is by far the best instructional on playing Irish fiddle tunes.

I bought a CD from the CDbaby website that will help a person learning to play Irish music. It has just a bodhran playing rhythm tracks for each type of Irish tune. The CD can be most effective used with software like "The Amazing Slow Downer". Playing along with the Irish drum helps you really "get in the groove" and develop a "feel" for playing each type of Irish fiddle tune.

gulfguy

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Thanks for the book suggestion. I'll see if I can find it. I've been getting these great videos from onlinelessonvideos.com featuring Ian Walsh. The videos come with the sheet music.

nofrets - Posted - 08/10/2009:  20:21:22

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I could see where people would think that Irish trad is mostly in G or D, but I think it would be more accurate to say they are played with one or two sharps. Many of these are actually in a dorian or mixylodian mode. There are plenty of tunes in G & D as well. You must remember that most sessions have a lot of flute and whistle players, where those are the dominant keys. Sure, many whistle plays bring several different whistles, but the mainstays are D whistles, which can play G, D and A pretty easily. Some people call tunes that use the G string a "fiddle" tune.

sinebar - Posted - 08/11/2009:  09:42:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dick Hauser

Yes, most tunes are in those keys. But, Irish music has a lot of ornamentation and bowing techniques you don't see in some notation. If you really like playing Irish music, I strongly suggest you get Peter Cooper's "The Complete Irish Fiddler" book and 2 Cds.

Lots of interesting historical information and detailed instructions on ornamentation and bowing dynamics. This book and the accompanying CDs will teach you HOW to play Irish fiddle tunes. The 2 CDs have all the tunes being played at moderate tempos. This is by far the best instructional on playing Irish fiddle tunes.

I bought a CD from the CDbaby website that will help a person learning to play Irish music. It has just a bodhran playing rhythm tracks for each type of Irish tune. The CD can be most effective used with software like "The Amazing Slow Downer". Playing along with the Irish drum helps you really "get in the groove" and develop a "feel" for playing each type of Irish fiddle tune.

gulfguy

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I just bought the book from Amazon. Does it come with the 2 CDs or do I need to purchase those seperately?

Dick Hauser - Posted - 08/11/2009:  17:57:25

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Sinebar -

I thought the CDs came with the book. Later, a guy bought the book but didn't get the CDs. When you get the book, let me know if you got the CDs. You really need the CDs to hear what he describes in the book.

gulfguy

nofrets - Posted - 08/11/2009:  18:34:40

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Matt Cranitch has a great book, too, that comes with a CD. He's a stickler on bowing, and it seems foreign at first, but works out really nice once you get it down.

Dick Hauser - Posted - 08/12/2009:  17:18:20

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I have Cranitch's book/CD and Cooper's Book/CD. I like the Cooper book better. I have been to some workshops held by a top notch professional fiddler/violinist, and he also likes the Cooper book better. He likes Cranitch's workshops better than any other workshop. Cranitch is a professional teacher and understands music theory, so he can probably communicate better than many instructors. I have heard that Cranitch is real serious and gets down to business in his workshops.

I like playing Irish music, but there is a problem. Unless you have friends to play with, you will probably be playing alone. In a traditional Irish jam, like the one held in a local town, they expect players to already know all the tunes, which tunes are in each medley, and what key each tune is in. That makes it hard to outsiders to join in. Everybody doesn't play the same tunes, and include the same tunes in a medley.

gulfguy

fiddlepogo - Posted - 08/12/2009:  18:26:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by sinebar

I just started playing the fiddle and I like mostly Irish trad and plain ol fiddle music. I read music pretty well and it looks like that most Irish and fiddle music is in the key of "G" and "D"? Does that sound right? I hope this is true because it keeps things simple. That's what I like about Irish trad and fiddle music. It's simple notation wise.

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That's a good starting place for major tunes, I'd say there are more in those two keys than anything else.
I actually have a strong bias towards G and D tunes myself.
I think it's because the low strings vibrate sympathetically with the high strings in those keys.
However, there are quite a few Old Time and Scottish tunes in A major.
That however is only one note different from a D major scale so it's not that hard.

A modal sounds like a different key, but if it's "mixolydian" mode it's the same scale notes as D major but with a different starting and ending note, and if it's "dorian" mode, it's the same scale notes as G major but with a different starting and ending point.

There are parts of the Deep South where they seem to play a lot more tunes in the key of C.

You have a lot of E minor Irish tunes, but they are actually in Dorian mode which is the same scale notes as D major but with different starting and ending notes.
Some of these like Drowsy Maggie will have one part in E minor Dorian and the other part in D major.

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/1088/index.php
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

TomGlos - Posted - 08/13/2009:  01:38:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dick Hauser
In a traditional Irish jam, like the one held in a local town, they expect players to already know all the tunes, which tunes are in each medley, and what key each tune is in. That makes it hard to outsiders to join in. Everybody doesn't play the same tunes, and include the same tunes in a medley.

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The perspective is different. The advice to those coming to this music is always to go regularly enough to a given session so that you learn the tunes they play, and in the meantime, listen! It's not part of the tradition that an "outsider" should be able to join in with everything! It's all about the tunes, and there are literally thousands! "Backup" is a bit of an issue. Playing offbeat chords won't necessarily make you many friends!
It's not exclusive, just different. The language is a bit different too! The word "jam" isn't often used, "session" alone is enough, and people would generally talk about "sets" rather than "medleys." Not exclusive, just different.
The whole topic has been much discussed on this forum.

Big thread addressing these points here
fiddlehangout.com/forum/topic....C_ID=1035

As regards the tunes in a set, there are some sets that are very standard, but at other times people will enjoy starting a set not knowing what tunes they are going to go into, and making the changes on the fly, which can be fun and exciting!

On the other hand this thread is in the theory forum and the OP is about key signatures....

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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....

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Edited by - TomGlos on 08/13/2009 03:40:50

sinebar - Posted - 08/14/2009:  18:25:36

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dick Hauser

Sinebar -

I thought the CDs came with the book. Later, a guy bought the book but didn't get the CDs. When you get the book, let me know if you got the CDs. You really need the CDs to hear what he describes in the book.

gulfguy

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I got the book today but no CDs.

Mandogryl - Posted - 08/19/2009:  17:01:41

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Alot are in G and D, maybe most - who knows - but I have a couple in Bm and you will even see A. And Em, for that matter.

Stephanie

jehanna - Posted - 08/28/2009:  13:53:15

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make things complicated. There is a reason most Irish flutes are tuned to D. If you are really interested in ITM go visit thesession.org/
but tread lightly. They have been known to make sport of noobs .

Squeak on down the road
sebabluegrass.org

TomGlos - Posted - 08/28/2009:  15:48:47

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"Wit and Humour" are fairly prevalent over at thesession.org, and there tends to be a lot of "chaff" to be sifted to find the grains of good stuff, BUT there is good info there.

Notation of Irish music is an issue in itself, but there is a vast collection of tunes on the site. (It seems the site's owner originally intended this as the main function rather than the discussion forum.)

Coming back to sinebar's original question, and as has already been said above, the great majority of Irish tunes have a one or two sharp key signature but that doesn't mean they are in G or D major. Tune posters, or the comments section attached to each tune, at thesession.org will generally give opinions (sometimes varying) as to the mode as well so you'll see tunes notated in one sharp listed as "A Dorian" "D mixolydian" etc.
(Where a tune is posted as D or G major, this may not be so.)


So, on the one hand, in the Irish tradition knowing the "key signature" is not enough, (hence the vast variety of tunes seemingly "in D and G.")

On the other hand, as (arguably) a primarily monophonic and aural tradition, purists might say, "why do you want to know, what key and mode it's in? Just play it."





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"Before you criticise anyone, you should walk a mile in their moccasins."
This is wise because (a) you''re a mile away when you start criticising, and (b) you''ve got their moccasins....

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Edited by - TomGlos on 08/28/2009 15:50:27

ency - Posted - 09/22/2009:  04:36:28

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yes, that is how I approach Irish fiddling, which is my first love. Hear it, hold it in your ears and play it. I get a bit glossy eyed when my friends start to talk keys...:)

Ency

EarlCameron - Posted - 12/07/2009:  16:19:04

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I am a primarily Irish fiddler and I merely think of keys by how many sharps or flats, and there are a fair amount of really great tunes in the the flatted keys, so don't overlook that. Sure, I know
my modes better than most people who merely dabble in the music, but there are practically no
tunes in the Irish repertoire in a "minor" scale. The closest thing to a minor scale would be the Dorian mode
which is always based on the second note of the major scale, which is backed by a "minor" chord based on that second note and the Major chord
based on the first note of the scale. Which....I might add, I notice all the time in bluegrass songs and tunes, as well as blues, funk, and jam music,
when I happen to be around that music. So yes, G major is A dorian....but the F natural is often used as color, and also the note between F natural and F sharp...but that is another story. Some would argue that applying western music theory to Irish music is futile because they fear our westernized minds will force the free scale and key forms to a more rigid structure, but I don't believe this.

Irish Violin - Posted - 02/05/2010:  15:27:36

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The key can vary, minor keys are used as well as flat keys.

frogeyes - Posted - 02/09/2010:  13:24:03

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the keys can totally vary ha ha i am learning one in c minor at the moment and what a mission to remember all those flats!! Given that i have been focusing on tunes in g and d lately till i got used to the new flute. ha ha all good. However i think it is fair to say that in my experience tune wise the majority of them are in g and d .

harwilli55 - Posted - 02/09/2010:  15:19:39

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Absolutey the keys vary. G modal and D modal seem the most common, with Em and A running close behind. But we play'em in C, Bb. F also. Earl seems to have the best handle how to describe tune structure. What it comes down to really, is you gotta know the tune. Going to sessions often, recording the tunes played, finding them on CD's, MP3's and notation really do help. Because it is an oral tradition music, it is best learned aurally without worrying about theory too much.(my two cents for what it is worth)

Since I am conscripted to be the guitarist in the sessions I attend, I have to think in modes much more than keys to find chords to fit. I've been at it for a couple of years now and every time I think I am getting it, I find out how little I am....lol. So much of my fiddling IRTRAD tunes is by myself, but it sure does help to remember the changes when playing in session.