1973Glenfield25 - Posted - 04/14/2012:  07:14:30

Greetings All,

I'm new to the Hangout and am building my first fiddle. I am a strict vegan and am wondering if there are any vegan glues that can be substituted for hide glue and still be taken apart if necessary.

Thanks.

Mandogryl - Posted - 04/14/2012:  07:28:49

Interesting question, but I can't help you.

I am a vegetarian (not vegan). Would it help you if you knew that the glue was from hides which are more or less by-products of a different industry?

I do not eat meat but do use hide glue. I do not eat chickens but do eat eggs. But the using of the hides is exploitation, just as any use of leather.

Do you wear leather shoes or belts? Probably not. I wish you well in your search, and welcome to FiddleHangout.

Dan Breitenstein - Posted - 04/14/2012:  07:36:40

Titebond Liquid Hide glue is synthetic and does  not contain animal products. I use it in place of hot hide glue and it does a great job. I use it for the neck joint, gluing on the back, top and fingerboard and it has never let me down. And yes, I have removed tops and finger boards that I glued with it and they come off about the same as hot hide glue.

scusigurl2011 - Posted - 04/14/2012:  08:34:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Breitenstein

Titebond Liquid Hide glue is synthetic and does  not contain animal products. I use it in place of hot hide glue and it does a great job. I use it for the neck joint, gluing on the back, top and fingerboard and it has never let me down. And yes, I have removed tops and finger boards that I glued with it and they come off about the same as hot hide glue.

---

 I am just thrilled and astonished to find out this information.  I'm a vegan, too, and AR (Animal Rights) activist;  one of the complaints that people have against AR/veg people is that they still use animal products, particularly in stringed instruments. 

My response has always been that even though one cannot be 1000% perfect (there is hide glue in books and wallpaper, for heaven's sake), that doesn't mean you have to abandon your beliefs in wanting to reduce animal cruelty.  (Cats are an issue, for example:  you can make good, healthy vegan dog food, but vegan cat food might kill your cat). 

Good news!  Thank you for posting this. 

DougD - Posted - 04/14/2012:  08:40:17

I'm not sure that information is correct. I always thought liquid hide glue was regular animal glue with an additive to keep it from setting up in the bottle. The Titebond website isn't very informative about the actual composition (the MSDS only lists the hazardous ingredients, which are a very small percentage of the whole), but they do call it hide glue after all.

Edited by - DougD on 04/14/2012 08:42:14

richdissmore - Posted - 04/14/2012:  08:44:29

THE TROUBLE IS COLD HIDE GLUE DOES NOT HOLD AS GOOD AS HOT HIDE GLUE THE USE OF ANY OTHER TYPE OF GLUE TURNS YOUR VIOLIN IN TO JUNK AND WILL COST EXTRA MONEY FOR A REAL LUTHIER THATS ONE THAT HAS BEEN SCHOOLED IN BUILDING AND REPAIR OF VIOLINS I TOOK MY VIOLIN TO A SELF MADE LUTHIER WHO WAS SELF TRAINED IT COST ME $350.TO UN DO HIS BAD WORK. IF YOUR NOT A TRAINED LUTHIER YOU WILL NOT TOUCH MY FIDDLE. IN MY CASE I WAS VERY UNHAPPY WITH THE BAD WORK .USE WHAT EVER YOU LIKE FOR GLUE AND YOU WILL FIND OUT THE COST OF REPAIR THE LUTHIER WILL HAVE TO TAKE ALL THE BAD GLUE OFF AND YOU WILL BE CHARGED FOR ITS REMOVELL AND NEW REPAIR. SOME TIMES ITS BEST TO GO FOR REPAIRS AND USE THE SERVICE OF A REAL LUTHIER IT WILL SAVE TIME AND MONEY

Mandogryl - Posted - 04/14/2012:  08:54:41

Titebond is generally inappropriate for instrument construction and repair because it is not as easily reversed as hot hide glue, and it tends to 'creep.'

I don't believe any professional violin maker uses it in primary construction or repairs, though it's a great product for other types of woodworking. 

transplant - Posted - 04/14/2012:  09:06:15

Titebond Liquid Hide glue is not synthetic and does contain animal products. Check the "Pennsylvania" section at the tail end of the MSDS, "non-hazardous components required to be listed at 3% or more:" where it plainly says "powdered hide glue." I've only used it occasionally to stick nuts on, at times when there wasn't a glue pot in the workspace. It smells like a not-so-nice grade of hide glue; I didn't taste it, so can't be 101% sure...

Regular Titebond, the opaque yellow stuff in a squeeze bottle, is different. I once took off a fingerboard that had been glued on with it, chipped away all the old glue down to bare wood, and stuck it back on again the right way. *$&*(^$^)@)_ is all I have to say about that.

Mandogryl - Posted - 04/14/2012:  09:15:57

I've used Titebond in the Red bottle for mandolin and guitar construction. THe red (ar)  bottle does not creep as much and is more reversible that the blue (pva) bottle.

KCFiddles - Posted - 04/14/2012:  09:22:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Breitenstein

Titebond Liquid Hide glue is synthetic and does  not contain animal products. I use it in place of hot hide glue and it does a great job. I use it for the neck joint, gluing on the back, top and fingerboard and it has never let me down. And yes, I have removed tops and finger boards that I glued with it and they come off about the same as hot hide glue.

---

Where did you read that? From all the literature I've read from Franklin, it's just regular hide glue with additives to keep it from gelling at room temp::

"Titebond Liquid Hide Glue is the first hide glue to be offered in a liquid, ready-to-use form. It requires no mixing, heating or stirring. Professional woodworkers use Titebond Liquid Hide for its long assembly time, exceptional strength and unique crackling effect on wood." Last I heard, hide glue meant glue made from hides, and sometimes by extension, bones.

From long standing experience among many luthiers, including me, it has a high failure rate when used in violin assembly, compared with hot hide glue.  I use it for gluing in labels and securing nuts, and that's about it. One small bottle has lasted me for years.

Might want to test rice glue:

"Rice glue, called "sokui" in the old days, was used as an adhesive for fittings and furniture from the Nara period in Japan. Sokui was used around the time when people stopped using hide glue, due to the introduction of Buddhism and consequent prohibition of butchering. Hide glue, according to chronicles of Japanese history, was first used to produce ink. After that it was used as glue for wood or bamboo, as well as for painting. The strength of the glue is different depending on the type the animal hide used. As for ginansai, aside from being used as wall material and glue, was used as food by the Ainu (an indigenous tribe in Northern Japan). Even now, people in the Rumoi region of Hokkaido (northern island of Japan) still use it to make miso soup."

Also might want to Google "Shoemaker's Paste". It'll take a little searching.

I'd do quite a bit of testing before I used any of these seriously.  They all look like good glues with the right characteristics, but there's always more to be learned.

Learner - Posted - 04/14/2012:  13:27:28

Good information, Michael.

Mountainbanjo - Posted - 04/14/2012:  15:10:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by scusigurl2011 (Cats are an issue, for example:  you can make good, healthy vegan dog food, but vegan cat food might kill your cat). 

Good news!  Thank you for posting this. 

---

My dog loves fruit and veggies. But I've never known a dog to have an ethical problem with eating or using or rolling in animal products.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/14/2012:  21:21:11

I did some googling,
and funori is a japanese seaweed glue used mostly for paper,
and jackfruit is an asian fruit with sap that can be turned into glue.
I also saw some references to eucalyptus sap being processed into glue. That might be a problem.... eucalyptus is highly flammable, and the sap probably is too.

Answers.com says these three glues are vegan:

Elmer's multi purpose glue
PVA wood adhesive
Weldbond

A big key to violin repairability is the removability of the top. Perhaps weaker vegetable glues could be used for that,
and the stronger vegan glues for everything else. If one were to make a vegan violin using strong glues, I would put a warning label in it stating
that it is not repairable by normal methods of violin luthiery.

I wonder if rosin or some types of rosin couldn't be made into glues.

The first rosins I blended on the bow were Kaplan Artcraft Dark and Hill Dark.
Since they blended on the bow well, I got curious to see what the results would be if I actually heated them and mixed them!

The result worked, but the tone wasn't good- too harsh. However whatever that rosin mixture got on-
the saucepan, the pyrex measuring cup/pourer and the kitchen knife used for mixing were INCREDIBLY difficult to clean- the rosin mixture stuck to them so well! I think rubbing alcohol and a LOT of "elbow grease" finally worked.

Of course, I have no idea what additives they put in Hill and Artcraft rosin- the additives may disqualfiy them as vegan.

I wonder what would happen if you blended rosin and funori????

In effect, since different additives give rosin certain playing characteristics, perhaps the right additive would make it even more like a glue, and possibly give it some of the properties of hide glue. The fact that rosin shatters might make it behave more like hide glue as far as separating joints.
Rosin has the plus that it's readily available.

Is propolis considered vegan??? That also has some glue-like properties. Stradivari may have used it in his varnish.

Anyway, I'm convinced that the answer to the problem would be in blending different vegetable products with glue-like qualities, whether they are currently used as glues or not.

Above-mentioned ideas are untested- use at your own risk.

You know... there may already exist an answer to this in India... they make sitars and other complex instruments... they also use violins in Indian music...
what kind of glues do they use in those???
One thing I saw when I travelled in Europe... technology doesn't always spread evenly over the globe. Some technology exists in pockets and doesn't spread, either because there isn't a demand elsewhere, or because no entrepreneur has connected the technology with a market elsewhere.

transplant - Posted - 04/15/2012:  05:58:40

Honey isn't considered vegan, so propolis is probably not vegan either. Even though it is commonly called "bee glue," I doubt anyone would get very far using it to stick violin parts together. It is more like caulking than glue; bees use it to fill gaps. It is brittle in the cold, and softens in warm surroundings.

Larry Rutledge - Posted - 04/15/2012:  05:59:26

Where can I buy some of that vegan cat food?? 

scusigurl2011 - Posted - 04/15/2012:  06:44:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Rutledge

Where can I buy some of that vegan cat food?? 

---

 It'll come up under a google search.  There is one company in particular which sells it, but I'm not going to post the link because I am not convinced it's safe.  I say this because there is a very eminent professor of animal rights at UT El Paso who has labored all his life for AR and related topics, is highly respected in the movement, and has published a great deal.  And he is a cat lover, and will not use this product but persists in feeding his cats meat. 

We do not live in a perfect world;  I'm not here to proselytize something which does not really need my support.  Nevertheless, I must state the obvious:  doing just a little in the way of lessening animal cruelty, however imperfect, is better than doing nothing at all, not caring about the animals, and being cynical about the whole subject.  (Sorry, moderator:  this is way, way OT).

But take horses, for example.  Many who are killed for dogfood (and even human food!) were once someone's loved pets.  And yet, for whatever reasons, they are taken in uncomfortable circumstances, and amid the screams of their companions, hung upside down and butchered.  I know horses and I love them, and I think they may be thinking something like:  where is the child who loved me and raised me?  What did I do to deserve this horror? 

If people do not care about the sufferings of animals, there is nothing I can do about it.  I just feel terribly sorry for them and hope they will develop a sensitivity to this some day.

Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 04/15/2012 06:47:15

1973Glenfield25 - Posted - 04/15/2012:  10:12:44

Thank you folks for the thoughtful comments. The rice glue sounds promising but first I think I'll do some research into Indian instrument building techniques. Good idea fiddlepogo. Thanks.

I am actually a beekeeper myself and consider honey (and propolis) vegan. But propolis would definitely not work for the reasons stated above.

I used Titebond red label to build the ribs and plan on using it to glue the neck on. The book I'm using says to glue the top, back, and fingerboard on with hide.

Some people simply don't know the consequences of their actions. Others don't care. My religion and ethics are to refrain from all wrongdoing and avoid causing any unnecessary suffering. Be vegan and be blessed.

transplant - Posted - 04/15/2012:  10:41:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by 1973Glenfield25

I am actually a beekeeper myself and consider honey (and propolis) vegan. But propolis would definitely not work for the reasons stated above.

---

In a previous century I kept some hobby hives here and there, even took a summer job as a bee inspector once. I consider all the products of the hive to be obtainable in a cruelty-free fashion, but I did find a site on line that claimed honey was non-vegan "by definition." I didn't link to it here, because it also contained some overblown rhetoric about factory farming and the enslavement of bees. My bologna detector was ticking...

Thanks for offering a more sensible view.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 04/15/2012:  17:15:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by transplant

Honey isn't considered vegan, so propolis is probably not vegan either. Even though it is commonly called "bee glue," I doubt anyone would get very far using it to stick violin parts together. It is more like caulking than glue; bees use it to fill gaps. It is brittle in the cold, and softens in warm surroundings.

---

I'm not necessarily suggesting propolis or any ONE vegetable ingredient as the solution... what I'm thinking is that something that's close could be pushed in the right direction with other natural additives.  Another thing that occurred to me is that propolis could be analyzed for some ideas as to vegetable gluing agents.   Not all propolis is the same, bees come up with different formulations depending on the region.

By the way, I'm not vegan, I just like a challenge!

One of the problems is that normally, glues are formulated to be STRONG.  There are already STRONG vegan glues.  Then there are relatively weak vegetable glues like funori.  What's needed is something in the middle, that's strong enough to hold the violin together, but weak enough to be undoable.

Perhaps an additive to a strong glue to weaken it a bit, or an additive to a weaker glue to strengthen it.

Another possibility would be to use a non-traditional violin design like a Chanot style, that has far fewer glue joints.  Or the neck, back and sides could be carved in one piece, and then the top held on with a relatively weak glue.   I've seen a russian folk violin with the sides and back carved from one piece of wood.

Violin makers who are already using fairly non-traditional designs are probably more likely to think outside the traditional box when it comes to glues.  They might also be more interested in finding a niche market.

transplant - Posted - 04/15/2012:  19:54:18

It isn't just about managing the strength of hide glue; a huge benefit of it is its reworkability. It is possible to reactivate old hide glue with hot water so it sticks just fine, if the joint can still be clamped snug. Can't do that with PVA or CA or epoxy or polyurethane foam. I don't think casein will work that way either, but I've been wrong at least once or twice before.

giannaviolins - Posted - 04/16/2012:  05:18:37

The reversibility and predictability are very important.   I spent almost 2 weeks off and on trying to pull this neck.  Nothing worked.  I was shocked to finally in a non-standard way get it to pull loose only to find white glue!   A relatively simple job turned into a real trial because of that one concealed joint.  Just worth keeping in mind.

scusigurl2011 - Posted - 04/16/2012:  14:38:51

Warning:  OT

I was thinking about the honey thing, being vegan.  I had always read that it is non-vegan, and what that one person meant by honey being vegan "by definition" must be that the definition of vegan is non animal products.  So I don't know;  is an insect an animal?  I don't remember my high school biology class --  though I should:  I refused to dissect anything and instead of flunking me I was allowed to leave the room at those times, but I had to memorize the whole of the phyla (all the names and categories, is what I mean).  For a rural (edge of town) high school in Tulsa, Oklahoma, the teacher really cut me a break.

That was in 1968, back when the dinosaurs were walking around outside. 

Is a bee an animal?  Buddists, I suspect, if they are vegetarians or vegans (all are not, including, I believe the Dali Lama), would say they were "sentient beings."  But the questions is very unsettled (??) 

Back OT:  East Indian instruments aside, I'm wondering if the carbon graphic instruments require hide glue?  I bet not. 

PS:  I don't use honey.  I'm sweet enought as it is.  <<running & ducking>>

Edited by - scusigurl2011 on 04/16/2012 14:44:38

Mountainbanjo - Posted - 04/16/2012:  15:41:32

Insects are Animalia= animals.

Depending on which variety of veganism one subscribes to, some dietary vegans could make their own hide glue from a source they deem OK-like roadkill perhaps. Its not hard to make hide glue, or so I understand. Never tried it myself.

Mandogryl - Posted - 04/16/2012:  17:31:23

Please let's remember the forum rules.

Political or Religious Topics: Posts which are political or religious in nature are generally prohibited 

Thank you

giannaviolins - Posted - 04/16/2012:  20:25:27

Maybe I don't know what "political" or "religious" are.  I haven't seen anything here about politics or religion, unless veganism is a religion or political party.

I personally don't understand the distinctions between vegetarians, vegans, and whatever.  I have no opinion on what others do, but I have the opinion that one should not impose one's values about such things on others.

It's a problem.  The wood I use came from trees that were likely killed for their wood.  The tools of steel come from mines and factories that displace grass and animals, indirectly reducing populations.  The glue comes from animal hides.  The varnish comes from tree sap and insect products.  It's always something.  I swat bugs that actually attempt to bite me.  I'll shoot dangerous dogs, even though I like dogs and my wife is a dog professional.  I'm not sure what that makes me!

I'm not really all that interested in analyzing all that.

I am interested in alternative glues and how to evaluate their impact on the natural world from production, and their reversibility and durability in use.  That easy reversibility is the difficult part.  In a way that violin people expect.  I am unfamiliar with anything like that.  I'm thinking the synthetics create more damage than the hide glue.  Anyone know?

vgstef - Posted - 07/06/2012:  20:55:33

Really interesting discussion. Thanks for all the information.

I'm also a vegan working on building a vegan violin and the glue issue is a hard one. I've been trying out rice glue (Yamato paste) and it looks promising.

My biggest concern is for gluing the neck with non hide glue. It seems to me that this part get the most important constraints. Am I right on this?

I hope to hear again about you success and trials.

bj - Posted - 07/06/2012:  21:22:31

I might have a solution for you, but there's a warning in it. I wouldn't use this for any instrument I wasn't planning on keeping for myself, since other luthiers wouldn't know the "secret" to reversing this.

Some folks, including a fiddle luthier I know who has set up at Clifftop, have used Casein Glue for musical instruments. It is reversible with a vinegar solution. However, if you don't know that you'll break the dang fiddle trying to loosen this glue.

There is another problem with this, Casein is a bit caustic over time, so is not considered ideal. However, it is made from milk, maybe not strict vegan, but not taken from a dead animal at least.

I'd do some reading and studying before use. There is a manufacturer of casein glue not that far from me, and the engineer in the plant is a helpful guy who will answer questions.

National Casein of NJ

Addie - Posted - 07/06/2012:  23:15:46

There's some evidence of the use of casein glue in lutherie, historically, but I think it falls into that ovo-lacto gray area for vegetarians.  Definitely not vegan.

I think there are some vegetable-gelatin (agar) glues?

FiddleDoug - Posted - 07/07/2012:  04:10:39

How about if you made the hide glue from certified "Road Killed" animals only. That way you could blame it on the cars, and call the violin a tribute to the poor animals! 

MANFIO - Posted - 07/12/2012:  10:31:22

As a maker I see no substitute for hide glue, at least for top instruments. Hide glue is not the only problem since there is no good substitute for bow horse hair too. I use bone black pigment for my oil varnish too.



The whole orchestra is full of animals: fish bladder in the woodwind, gut strings,  sheep skin in the woodwind  and in the piano,   skins in the percussion, etc.

Edited by - MANFIO on 07/12/2012 10:34:51