Andah1andah2 - Posted - 12/02/2010:  19:20:44

---

An open-ended question:

How good do you need to be to busk?

DougD - Posted - 12/02/2010:  19:31:42

---

Good enough to stop traffic!

Barry1963 - Posted - 12/02/2010:  20:28:38

---

I live in Nashville and ive seen some that werent all that great and still getting so change. Nice part of busking though, is if you know 10-12 tunes decent you can do well as even the ones that stop to listen only stay for a couple.

tonyelder - Posted - 12/02/2010:  21:08:36

---

I agree with Barry. It's not so much your level of skill that should determine when you go out. I think when you can play through 10 -12 songs without being distracted by stuff that might be going on around you, then you're ready. But your success will also depend a great deal on being able to make eye contact with your audience while you play and wearing smile the whole time. It is as much about having good showmanship and being personable as it is having overwhelming talent. But having an overwhelming talent won't hurt none.

tonyelder - Posted - 12/02/2010:  21:09:52

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Good enough to stop traffic!

---

Yea. Ask the "Naked Cowboy" in NY.

kygarv7 - Posted - 12/02/2010:  22:50:01

---

Here I am busking in Ashland, Ky wearing my fiddle hangout shirt!

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 12/03/2010:  04:11:42

---

What is busking?

bowbag - Posted - 12/03/2010:  05:35:35

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

What is busking?

---

Playing in a public space, typically with some form of money collection. The idea is if people like with they hear they give you some change or whatever in appreciation.

ajisai - Posted - 12/03/2010:  05:37:42

---

I'm reading Fiddling Way Out Yonder: The Life and Music of Melvin Wine by Drew Beisswenger (thanks to some great book suggestions made by Fiddle Hangout members) and this little piece of advice from Mr. Wine stuck with me:

"...if you go out and you're playing outside, and you ain't playing like you mean it, if you're just dragging along, it don't go very well. You don't have no audience very long. You play like you mean it, they stay and listen." (p. 88)

So good enough to play like you mean it?

---

Edited by - ajisai on 12/03/2010 06:19:28

wooliver - Posted - 12/03/2010:  05:40:29

---

busking is perfoming on the street.
Some i've heard & scene range from College violinist, to "sounds like they just found the fiddle in a dumpster." All it takes is bravery.

drnathan747 - Posted - 12/03/2010:  08:16:07

---

Can anyone suggest some good spots to busk?

Are there any big chain stores that are open to busking? such as Walmart? Target?

Thanks.

giannaviolins - Posted - 12/03/2010:  08:29:08

---

Where people pass by for lunch or commuting. Best if there are lumps of people coming by.

Get a friend to get out at the front of the oncoming lump. He sees you, says out loud "Hey, this guy's good" - stops and after a minute drops a buck into your case. That really helps break the ice.

John Gent - Posted - 12/03/2010:  08:42:26

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by voodoo
.... That really helps break the ice. ...

---

And don't forget to put some 'seed' money in your hat/case ...

DougD - Posted - 12/03/2010:  08:45:31

---

I've never tried it, but I'd say WalMart and Target are very unlikely spots. I doubt they'd allow it, and people are in too much of a hurry anyway. kygarv7 is in front of the convention and visitors bureau, which makes more sense, as long as there's enough traffic.

OTJunky - Posted - 12/03/2010:  09:05:16

---

The thing to remember about busking - or about most performances - is that it's not about the music, it's about entertaining.

You have to play well enough so that bad notes and halting rhythm don't run people off, but that's about it.

There are lots of ways to be entertaining when busking, costumes, facial expressions, interacting with the audience - especially the kids, choice of well-known tunes (e.g. Turkey in the Straw). Basically you just need an "Act" and that always has to be tailored to play to your strengths.

You can draw in some money by just sitting there and playing. But you can draw in a lot more if you have an act - even if it's understated...

--OTJ

Percy - Posted - 12/03/2010:  10:49:29

---

I would think areas frequented by tourists would be best! I know when I'm traveling in Ireland -- the locals seem to ignore the players -- perhaps they see them often. It's the tourists who stop and listen -- and happily through a Euro or two into the case!

wooliver - Posted - 12/03/2010:  10:51:44

---

-Work with a buddy. Guitar, banjer, or anything.

-If you've prepared enough to have a successful busk, you could just as easily
attain a real gig.

-If you just want to work on your bravery, you'll do more good playing a nursing home.

fyoder - Posted - 12/03/2010:  11:04:11

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barry1963

I live in Nashville and ive seen some that werent all that great and still getting so change. Nice part of busking though, is if you know 10-12 tunes decent you can do well as even the ones that stop to listen only stay for a couple.

---

There was an older guy in Vancouver years ago who would play the tin whistle very badly, more beggar than busker really, but at least he was doing something more than putting a hand out. The entry level is really low so the question isn't really how good to enter, but rather how good

• to clearly be a busker and not a beggar
• to make decent coin (or better, bills)

drnathan747 - Posted - 12/03/2010:  14:00:41

---

Any of you that busk, is one likely to get permission to busk inside a mall?

Thanks.

coelhoe - Posted - 12/03/2010:  14:40:52

---

How well you have to play depends on where your are. I have seen people with no skills at all fill a cup in heavy tourist areas.

Busking is common in Europe in shopping areas and parks in summer, in the tunnels of the metros (subways) in winter.

Shopping malls in the US are private property and have all kinds of behavior rules, often taking a percentage, or charging a fee. It is hard in winter to find a space large enough to have foot traffic but warm enough to play and yet open to public performance.

Andah1andah2 - Posted - 12/03/2010:  16:15:22

---

I can't wait to try busking but I have some concerns to overcome. I need another year to be competent enough to play enough tunes pretty solidly .
I also have to "get over" my tension/freak out playing for others. Only happens when I'm the only fiddle being heard so it is not an issue at jams. It would help to play with someone else.

I think it would be a lot of fun, regardless of the money since it would be more of a hobby. I would be fine if people stopped, listened, and enjoyed my playing. I would try public parks, street festivals, city areas where people are pub-crawling, farmers markets, and if daring enough a port authority/train/bus station.

Barry1963 - Posted - 12/03/2010:  16:52:27

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by drnathan747

Any of you that busk, is one likely to get permission to busk inside a mall?

Thanks.

---

Its always best to check local laws as well. Some cities require permits to busk. In Nashville it falls under pan handling. If you actively as for money you need a permit, but playing your instrument with a sign in your case such as "donations excepted" is considered passive and no permit needed.

Endif - Posted - 12/03/2010:  18:20:51

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fyoder
to clearly be a busker and not a beggar

to make decent coin (or better, bills)

---

Don't quit your day job. In DC, buskers can be found by some of the busy subway entrances. A few years back a famous violinist, whose name escapes me, was in town for a concert. Just for grins, he was placed at one of the most busiest subway entrances in the morning rush hour. If memory serves correctly, he only got $25-$30, and $20 of that was from one woman who recognized him and hung around for an hour just to hear him play. I've rarely seen people stopping, and some of the buskers are really good. OTOH, I will admit to seeing groups of 5 or 10 people hanging around some of the buskers in New Orleans. I guess it's like real estate: location, location, location.

fyoder - Posted - 12/03/2010:  18:47:27

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Endif

quote:

---

Originally posted by fyoder
to clearly be a busker and not a beggar

to make decent coin (or better, bills)

---

Don't quit your day job. In DC, buskers can be found by some of the busy subway entrances. A few years back a famous violinist, whose name escapes me, was in town for a concert. Just for grins, he was placed at one of the most busiest subway entrances in the morning rush hour. If memory serves correctly, he only got $25-$30, and $20 of that was from one woman who recognized him and hung around for an hour just to hear him play. I've rarely seen people stopping, and some of the buskers are really good. OTOH, I will admit to seeing groups of 5 or 10 people hanging around some of the buskers in New Orleans. I guess it's like real estate: location, location, location.

---

You may be thinking of the experiment with Joshua Bell. His problem may have been playing too well. If he'd faked having trouble with some passages, and hit a couple of wrong notes, I bet he would have made more. We've all heard lots of really good Bach as background music -- not attention getting. Or if he'd played some upbeat fiddle tunes, that might have gotten him a little more.

Endif - Posted - 12/03/2010:  19:12:12

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fyoder

---

quote:

---

You may be thinking of the experiment with Joshua Bell. His problem may have been playing too well. If he'd faked having trouble with some passages, and hit a couple of wrong notes, I bet he would have made more. We've all heard lots of really good Bach as background music -- not attention getting. Or if he'd played some upbeat fiddle tunes, that might have gotten him a little more.

---

Yes, that's exactly who it was! Thank you! I agree about classical music generally not being attention getting. The most successful buskers I've ever seen were a trio in New Orleans that played a combination of cajun and old-time. They had strong rhythm, engaging people and making them want to dance or at least tap their feet in time. They also made a lot of eye contact and made it clear they were having fun, too. Second best was a bluegrass group outside the Vienna (Virginia for non-locals) metro station. Same characteristics of good danceable rhythm, eye contact, and engaging people in the fun. I only saw them a couple of times, but they had an amazing amount of money in the banjo case given what a difficult audience northern VA commuters are.

---

Edited by - Endif on 12/03/2010 19:48:14

fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/03/2010:  19:43:55

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wooliver

busking is perfoming on the street.
Some i've heard & scene range from College violinist, to "sounds like they just found the fiddle in a dumpster." All it takes is bravery.

---

In one sense, that's true!!!

However...
there are really two scenarios here, and I think many people think about this when they think about donating.
1. the person is really "panhandling" or "begging", and the instrument (which may have been actually found in the dumpster!)
is merely a prop to make this look less obvious.
2. the person is actually playing well enough that a subset of the passersby actually like the music,
and the donations are in effect "tips" for a job well done.
3. There is a ragged borderline between the two previous categories where some people may like your music,
and others think you're "begging" or "panhandling".

I would prefer to be in category 2, if at all possible..

I think the tone needs to be moderately smooth, not raspy or squawky,
intonation needs to be good at least MOST of the time (95%?? and the 5 off % has to be CLOSE)
and the rhythm needs to be at least steady rather than wobbly,
and the tunes need to be recognizable (if someone actually knew the tune).

R D Lite - Posted - 12/03/2010:  20:06:19

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by fyoder

quote:

---

Originally posted by Endif
A few years back a famous violinist, whose name escapes me, was in town for a concert. Just for grins, he was placed at one of the most busiest subway entrances in the morning rush hour.

---

You may be thinking of the experiment with Joshua Bell.

---

If anyone's curious, here's the (sped-up) video of that experiment: youtube.com/watch?v=hnOPu0_YWhw

---

Edited by - R D Lite on 12/03/2010 20:07:10

Bart - Posted - 12/04/2010:  07:02:10

---

The 10 year old girl who takes her lesson right before me went out with a young friend of hers and they made something like $100 in a couple hours on the sidewalk. She plays a heckuva lot better than me (she started at 3 yo), and they're pretty darn cute. Maybe being a cute little 10 year old girl who can really play helps? LOL

bj - Posted - 12/04/2010:  07:18:43

---

As some have said, you need to check local ordinances. My city allows players, but once you put the case open in front for tips they move you out. Downriver in Lambertville and New Hope busking is encouraged. They're tourist towns.

Play upbeat, happy, danceable stuff. Recognizable is good but not always necessary. Ten tunes is fine, since few people will stick around for more than a couple tunes. Don't worry about mistakes, most people don't know the tunes you're playing, so won't recognize mistakes if you make 'em. Don't worry about eye contact with the walkers since they see it as an intrusion into their space. Just play. And, as Swing says, Play Happy.

Tunes that have worked well in my area:
Golden Slippers (this one, over and above all others, is the one that gets a great response! Could be proximity to Philly and the Mummers, dunno.)
Liza Jane
Cluck Ol' Hen (yes, make LOTS of chicken noises!)
Oldtime Fire on the Mountain
Arkansas Traveller
8th of January
Old Mother Flanagan
Waterbound
Angeline the Baker
Over the Waterfall
Maggots in the Sheephide (I get great response telling people the name of this one!)
Bonaparte's Retreat
Spotted Pony
Old Susannah
Squirrel Heads & Gravy (another one that brings out smiles when the name is called)

I've never looked at it as a moneymaker, though I have made money at it. Definitely much more than most ordinary part time jobs would earn you, if you pick your time and place well. The most important thing about busking, and the thing that makes it great, is the fact that it seasons you as a musician. This is, bar none, a way to connect with an audience on a deeply personal level. You can see exactly what the reactions are in a way that you can't when on a stage with lights glaring in your face. You can easily interact (and should. Good way to develop stage patter.)

The reason Bell did lousy is because he doesn't know how to connect with a street audience and I doubt highly that he was playing danceable stuff that would connect with ordinary people.

There's also one more thing needed to make it as a busker. Spirit. If you don't have it the fiddle case will stay empty. If you do have it, then even if you aren't the best player technically you'll do okay anyway.

---

Edited by - bj on 12/04/2010 07:27:19

Skunkhound - Posted - 12/04/2010:  07:28:03

---

I tried my hand at it this summer, in a trendy hipster neighborhood in atlanta. I had a great time, basically just practicing my tune list, I have no real "act" as of yet. I had a handfull of people stop and listen for a song or two, litlle kids danced, and one guy just wanted to talk about music in general, which I happily did.
The big tally for the day (about 2 hrs.), was around $14. Awsome!! Not only did this cover my gas expenses, but also 2 cold beers at the bar, 20 yds from where I'd been playing. I will definately do it again.

drnathan747 - Posted - 12/04/2010:  08:52:48

---

Anyone have suggestions as to how to find a rhythm guitar player to go busking with you? A rhythm guitar seems to add a lot to the richness and depth of the music.

Thanks.

edkarch - Posted - 12/04/2010:  10:12:26

---

My favorite Friday bluegrass jam is in a music store in a large strip mall. We play inside in the winter but when it is warm we are out on the side walk and usualy collect a small crowd. The cops and mall security wave as they drive by. I don't know what their reaction would be to an open case for donations.

---

Edited by - edkarch on 12/04/2010 10:13:23

Andah1andah2 - Posted - 12/04/2010:  12:40:34

---

Bj talks of spirit which I agree with. Check out this guy. I don't think he is really into it. I think he might be a grumpy fiddler. Maybe that's his shtick? Sort of the Don Rickles of busking?

youtube.com/watch?v=C5Sn3Qp6tu...e=related

OTJunky - Posted - 12/04/2010:  12:44:23

---

He's just mad because she called him a violin player...

Pretty good fiddling though.

--OTJ

DougD - Posted - 12/04/2010:  12:59:13

---

drnathan747 - You don't need no stinkin' guitar player - just build one of these: youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ4UZeJlKPk Looks like he's doing pretty well with the tips.

Seriously, you just need to befriend a guitarist. If you don't know one, go to wherever they congregate - probably a local bar.

bluemandolinman - Posted - 12/04/2010:  15:39:00

---

My only experience busking was in the early 70's. I was going through a tortured singer songwriter phase and the more miserable and surly you acted, the more money you made. In retrospect, maybe they were giving me money in hopes that I would shut up?

mudbug - Posted - 12/04/2010:  15:54:11

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by drnathan747

Anyone have suggestions as to how to find a rhythm guitar player to go busking with you? A rhythm guitar seems to add a lot to the richness and depth of the music.

Thanks.

---

Hey, Doc! Either put something on your local Craig's List, or go the old fashioned route and hang a flyer in a music store. I bet you'll find a ton of guitarists who want to play. You'll probably have to hold auditions.

OTJunky - Posted - 12/04/2010:  16:12:13

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mudbug

I bet you'll find a ton of guitarists who want to play. You'll probably have to hold auditions.

---

Yup, you'll find a ton that want to play.

It's finding the one that can play that's usually the problem.

--OTJ

BC - Posted - 12/04/2010:  17:46:45

---

quote:

---

Percy Posted - 12/3/2010 1:49:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would think areas frequented by tourists would be best!

---

My wife and I were visiting our daughter in Chicago last spring. The Art Museum had free admission that day and I swear half of Chicago was there. There were 5 or 6 young kids jusy wailing on plastic 5 gal. buckets. These guys were really great ( I guess?) and they were raking in the $. Till the cops showed up. They chased them away and a few minutes later the kids came back. This cat and mouse game went for sometime, before tehy finally gave up- the cops that is.

So as was said before, timing and location mean a lot.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/04/2010:  20:05:31

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

---

Originally posted by mudbug

I bet you'll find a ton of guitarists who want to play. You'll probably have to hold auditions.

---

Yup, you'll find a ton that want to play.

It's finding the one that can play that's usually the problem.

--OTJ

---

Yeah, that's for sure-
Guitarists are a dime a dozen, but one that can backup fiddle tunes well is a rare gem!
Backing up fiddle tunes only LOOKS easy.
1. Yeah, fiddle tunes mostly use "cowboy chords" but the changes are short, and sometimes in funny places
where you wouldn't expect them. It's better if the guitarist can HEAR the changes themselves.
2. Since the fiddler is doing the more complex thing, a backup guitarist needs to adjust to the fiddler, and not make the fiddler adjust to the guitarist- at least not enough to take the fiddler out of their comfort zone.
Singer/guitarists are usually used to the fiddler adjusting to THEM on songs, so they've gotten LAZY.
3. Bass runs are nice IF the guitarist can do them without screwing up the rhythm, and they have to be in JUST the right places.
4. The guitarist must be steady- NO SPEEDING UP!!!
5. The guitarist need to be flexible enough to learn how to back up ALL the fiddler's best tunes,
if the fiddler isn't free to play all their best tunes and have them sound good, after a while, the fiddler
will get tired of only playing a limited repertoire.
6. On hoedowns and hornpipes, a backup guitarist uses a "boom-chucka" or "boom-chuck" rhythm.
It's a rhythm that many guitarists don't even know how to do.
A backup guitarist not only can do it, they can adjust how they do it to the specific fiddler's rhythm.
7. In a jam session that allows breaks, a guitarist will get equal crack at breaks with a fiddler,
but in a gig or busking, that might not work.
A. gigging or busking is about "putting your best foot forward" and if the guitarist doens't play lead as well or even a little better than the fiddler, there's no point.
B. Many guitars don't carry acoustically enough for the audience to hear the lead lines above the fiddle so why bother?
C. The fiddler will have to learn to play backup effectively for the guitarist, and that's a separate skill from being able to play a fiddle tune.
8. You need to find a guitarist that doesn't have a substance abuse problem of any kind-
having your guitarist show up impaired is NOT FUN!!!

Frankly,
Dr. Nathan,
it would be a whole lot easier for you to just bite the bullet, learn guitar, and BECOME your son's backup guitarist.

1. the logistics of getting to gigs would be simpler.
2. the logistics of getting to practice and scheduling it are simpler
3. You're already familiar with his music.

If a guitar seems too difficult,
consider tenor guitar (only 4 strings) or a baritone banjo-uke (Gold Tone makes one).
I'd rather have a solid 4 string backup than a wobbly guitarist.
And then, if you did find a guitarist, you could be a trio, or you could be the backup backup player!!!
(guitarists do get sick and have family obligations, too)

---

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 12/04/2010 20:18:53

DougD - Posted - 12/05/2010:  05:56:18

---

Gee, that sounds hard.

---

Edited by - DougD on 12/05/2010 05:56:48

coelhoe - Posted - 12/05/2010:  10:56:00

---

You can find the guitarist. Just offer half the proceeds. It is, after all, a 50 /50 partnership. A little practice beforehand doesn't hurt either.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/05/2010:  22:45:32

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by coelhoe

You can find the guitarist. Just offer half the proceeds. It is, after all, a 50 /50 partnership. A little practice beforehand doesn't hurt either.

---

Good point- I was actually thinking of pointing out that since good backup guitarists aren't that common, they SHOULD get a 50/50 cut.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 12/05/2010:  22:48:15

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

Gee, that sounds hard.

---

Doug,
don't you know I have a gift for making ANYTHING sound hard???


Well, high wood not think it too hard for YOU!

But you had to go and learn fiddle, so there is one less good
backup OT guitarist in circulation!

---

Edited by - fiddlepogo on 12/05/2010 22:55:05

leemysliwiec - Posted - 12/06/2010:  05:42:39

---

From what I see at our local market, you don't have to be good, although a lot of our buskers are VERY good. I see a lot of musicians who have either a "human interest" look about them or kids who have the "cute" factor going for them. It takes a certain amount of confidence to busk and I think that the audience can pick up on it. Buskers who don't just play, but who play with "spirit" and engage the audience, seem to do a lot better than others. Also, from my own experience, I can definitely say that FEAR is the buskers worse enemy. A recent post on another subject stated that 'a fiddle can smell fear'. Well, an audience can also. After you have a few busking experiences under your belt the fear will go away. LEE

---

Edited by - leemysliwiec on 12/06/2010 05:47:57

bj - Posted - 12/06/2010:  14:34:36

---

quote:

---

4. The guitarist must be steady- NO SPEEDING UP!!!

---

Add to that-- NO SLOWING DOWN! Keep the FIDDLER'S beat!

Out of around 10 guitarists who show up at our jam at various times, only three of them can figure out the chords and play them in the right places, and have a hope in hell of learning the tune on the fly. Luckily one of those three has been showing up regularly . . .

quote:

---

It takes a certain amount of confidence to busk and I think that the audience can pick up on it.

---

Yup. But the confidence CAN be faked. Ask me how I know.

leemysliwiec - Posted - 12/06/2010:  14:45:37

---

BJ, how do you know?