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Originally posted by stumpkicker

I have the15 inch viola my wife played in middle and high school. Just for yuks I decided to try putting violin strings on it. G, D, and A strings are fine but the E string always snaps and breaks when I try tuning it above C, maybe C#. I’ve tried putting E string on every time I change my fiddle strings. (3 or 4 times so far) I alternate between Helicore and Fiddle man strings.
Any ideas or insights are welcome.

Thanks
Rick

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But shouldn't you only be tuning that string to an A?

Ah, I think maybe I understand, you're not using those strings to tune to viola tuning, you're tuning to fiddle tuning. You have a longer scale length when you're treating it like a violin, so the string tension will be greater to get the string up where you want it, great enough to break it every time. I'd experiment with a lighter string gauge. Your string is probably about .010". Maybe go down to .08 or .06.

I’m tuning a 17.5 inch Viola to regular fiddle GDAE tuning. I use 3 Viola strings and a guitar string. I discarded the C string from the Viola set and used the G, D & A then put a .011 plain steel guitar string in for the G string. A 15 inch viola is on the small side so I would be inclined to seek out strong tension viola strings and a .012 guitar string.
Another thing you could do if you want to get more serious is swap out the viola tailpiece for a 4/4 violin tailpiece, place the bridge on the tailpiece side of the soundpost (so behind the soundpost) give it good quality regular tension viola strings G D & A with a guitar .012 E and you’ll have good tension and good volume. For the plain guitar string I have used the Elixir .012 which works but I’m keen to try the D’Addario New York .012  The New York plain strings are a smoother steel that are longer lasting and have slightly more tension. I think they'll produce better tone, the question is how they'll respond to the bow. I haven't tried them yet 

Violin strings are designed for a very specific vibrating string length, so putting them on a longer instrument risks issues. The E string is at the highest tension, so it’s the most likely to snap when you exceed the standard tension by a significant amount. The other strings have stranded cores, so their elasticity gives them a little better chance of stretching beyond their normal limits, but you’re still pushing them to extremes. It doesn’t help anything that Helicore is one of the highest tension strings on the market to begin with.

Please don’t put your soundpost/bridge in a wacky position and ruin your instrument!

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Please don’t put your soundpost/bridge in a wacky position and ruin your instrument!

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That’s what the Viol makers of the day said to Gasparo when when he was making his first Viola 

Thanks for all the input.
I’m just a simple folk fiddler; and looking at 5 string violas online, I saw that they were tuned EADGC , so I thought I could just slap my violin strings on the viola just as an experiment to see what it would sound like compared to my fiddle. I had no idea about vibrating string lengths and different thicknesses on violin strings.

Live and learn!

Thanks again.

Rick

Just work your way through the logic and you’ll get pretty close. Depending on what you want to do there are variety of options. When it comes to music and musical instruments there are often compromises. The trick is to stay within the parameters and get the best compromise. What you are trying to achieve is easily doable.

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Originally posted by martyjoe

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

Please don’t put your soundpost/bridge in a wacky position and ruin your instrument!

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That’s what the Viol makers of the day said to Gasparo when when he was making his first Viola 

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I highly doubt that. Gasparo da Salo was an early maker but not the only one. Andrea Amati is believed to be the first. The soundpost was around possibly even as far back as the 1400s.  There is some speculation about a central soundpost, but nothing is actually confirmed, and it was quickly discovered that the post needed to be elsewhere to work well. 

Well then you Should Know that some of those early violin makers placed the bridge behind the soundpost! And that’s exactly where I got the idea. So go back in history and get the real story.

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Originally posted by martyjoe

Well then you Should Know that some of those early violin makers placed the bridge behind the soundpost! And that’s exactly where I got the idea. So go back in history and get the real story.

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The real story is that the makers realized there was an advantage to the placement of the soundpost behind the bridge and universally adopted that position once it became clear that earlier placements in different places didn't work.

Edison went through many, many light bulb designs before coming up with the one that was successful. Championing the soundpost and bridge position you've been writing about is akin to asking everyone to adopt a light bulb design that didn't work. Just because it happened at some time in history doesn't mean that it was the correct idea or that it holds some hidden magic.

Again, the central soundpost argument is speculative, not authoritative. There are paintings of all kinds of viols or rebecs with things like second bridges or placement further down the f holes. But going from paintings is somewhat problematic, as the accuracy is unclear. Artists have struggled to depict the violin accurately throughout history. Regardless of soundpost placement at some time, the soundpost position that's been used for the last 400 years has been universally adopted. Do you really believe you know better than the greatest violin makers in history and all the successful violin makers since?

I can understand a desire for experimentation to some degree, but why is it necessary to make grandiose claims about ideas that have been proven not to work well? The further into the ether an idea gets, the bolder the claims that are made about its efficacy. It would be much easier to stomach if the experiments were presented as such and treated as explorations, not declarations of amazing discoveries. 

Buy a long scale E string (I believe Helicore makes them). I've ordered them off of Amazon before. Use that long scale E string on your highest (1st) peg and move each of the other viola strings down one peg (A on second peg, D on third peg, G on fourth peg). I have that set up on one of my 16" violas now. Makes for a powerful fiddle in jams!

Ok Rich. Whatever. I might find the time to read this later.

stumpkicker - Looks like the Helicore viola E string is intended for longer scale instruments, but this Larsen E string might solve your problem:
fiddlershop.com/products/larse...-e-string

I’m keeping this brief. I 100% agree with you on soundpost placement. I only change the bridge placement. We are all aware of your opinion in relation to this. At this point I don’t care what your opinion is and I don’t want to hear any more of your opinions. I have found that “for my purpose with Tenor Violas”” placing the bridge behind the soundpost makes a better instrument. The best compromise of sound and playability. There the Facts as I see them. You can argue with the wall as far as I’m concerned because I find your insults about wacky placements and accusations of bragging when I came 2nd last in a competition to be offensive. In future you can direct your hostilities somewhere else. If you want to hear the Viola (the frame with the girl playing the fife) thanks to DougD for putting it up in a previous thread. It is an $800us Chinese 16.25” Viola with low tension cello strings in DAE and Spirocore tungsten G and a $45 cello bow with black hair. Listen to the Viola because the playing is nothing to brag about.

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Originally posted by martyjoe

I’m keeping this brief. I 100% agree with you on soundpost placement. I only change the bridge placement. We are all aware of your opinion in relation to this. At this point I don’t care what your opinion is and I don’t want to hear any more of your opinions. I have found that “for my purpose with Tenor Violas”” placing the bridge behind the soundpost makes a better instrument. The best compromise of sound and playability. There the Facts as I see them. You can argue with the wall as far as I’m concerned because I find your insults about wacky placements and accusations of bragging when I came 2nd last in a competition to be offensive. In future you can direct your hostilities somewhere else. If you want to hear the Viola (the frame with the girl playing the fife) thanks to DougD for putting it up in a previous thread. It is an $800us Chinese 16.25” Viola with low tension cello strings in DAE and Spirocore tungsten G and a $45 cello bow with black hair. Listen to the Viola because the playing is nothing to brag about.

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You can do what you want with your own instruments, but it's extremely irresponsible to advise other people to do things that are structurally and tonally harmful to the instrument. Violin construction and setup are far more complex than you realize.

Doing this kind of abuse to a cheap instrument is one thing (I don't fully agree that low price is license to torture instruments), but if someone reads your comments and attempts that kind of adjustment on a valuable instrument and then ruins it, it will be a real hardship. Will you stand behind your claims that it's a good idea by paying for the repair work when your advice leads to a soundpost crack? Will you pay for the touchup when the varnish gets chewed up by putting a bridge in a different spot? Or will you just duck the responsibility for your advice by throwing up your hands and saying "Well, I'm just an amateur tinkerer and I can't make any guarantees of anything?"

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Originally posted by DougD

stumpkicker - Looks like the Helicore viola E string is intended for longer scale instruments, but this Larsen E string might solve your problem:
fiddlershop.com/products/larse...-e-string

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Hi Doug,

I checked out the Larsen  E string and it looks like just what the doctor ordered. I was getting ready to buy one of the fiddlershop carbon Bows ( my current one is giving up the ghost after a measly seven years ) so I will just add that to the order.
Thanks for the info,

Rick