Correct and Right. There’s always going be some variations in tunes as you travel around from session to session. I think that it is important that whatever is being played sits on top of what everyone is playing. If I find my version of a passage doesn’t fit on what someone else is doing, I change it straight away.

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Originally posted by martyjoe

Correct and Right. There’s always going be some variations in tunes as you travel around from session to session. I think that it is important that whatever is being played sits on top of what everyone is playing. If I find my version of a passage doesn’t fit on what someone else is doing, I change it straight away.

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Good for you... There was a time when I didn't have the ability to adapt.. but now do and find it a fun challenge.

Don't know if any of this will be helpful, but you might find it interesting.
First of all, the name of this tune is "Liberty." It must have been popular in North Georgia, because it was recorded several times under that title. I don't know what would be considered the "original." The Skillet Lickers included it in their recorded skit "A Corn Liquor Still in Georgia". (Walt Koken, Jenny Cleland and I actually memorized the skit and performed it once live on the radio - our acting wasn't even as good as the original record, but it was funny).
The tune must have been popular, because the Skillet Lickers recorded it again as a single side. Clayton McMichen introduced it as "The tune you've all been asking for - Liberty - Off the Corn Licker Still," meaning the tune that was included in the skit. Here's their recording: youtu.be/9z4PvStDAUU?is=rsg0izklE5egkUOx
Forty some years later we also recorded the tune. We enjoyed getting together at Walt and Annie's for dinner and playing music around a maple table Walt had made. It always sounded good, and we decided to try recording it, so we hung up our two microphones, and this is the result:
youtu.be/-5vzghVajs4?is=CkUclFfNwByw4a8s
With a little wink and nod to the Skillet Lickers, we titled it "Liberty off the Corn Liquor Still" on our LP "Fire On the Mountain," and the name seems to have stuck.
I don't think we really played it quite like the Skillet Lickers, but I think the feeling was similar. I have no idea what transcriptions you've found, or what your friend might consider the "original."
Good luck, Lee! Its a crazy tune.

PS - The title on the Skillet Lickers 78 is simply "Liberty," and Clayton McMichen actually said "The tune you've all been CALLING for."
I found that the Skillet Lickers 78 and our album track are almost exactly the same length, whatever that means!

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Originally posted by DougD

I found that the Skillet Lickers 78 and our album track are almost exactly the same length, whatever that means!

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It means that you've matched there tempo pretty much spot on!

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Originally posted by DougD

Don't know if any of this will be helpful, but you might find it interesting.
First of all, the name of this tune is "Liberty." It must have been popular in North Georgia, because it was recorded several times under that title. I don't know what would be considered the "original." The Skillet Lickers included it in their recorded skit "A Corn Liquor Still in Georgia". (Walt Koken, Jenny Cleland and I actually memorized the skit and performed it once live on the radio - our acting wasn't even as good as the original record, but it was funny).
The tune must have been popular, because the Skillet Lickers recorded it again as a single side. Clayton McMichen introduced it as "The tune you've all been asking for - Liberty - Off the Corn Licker Still," meaning the tune that was included in the skit. Here's their recording: youtu.be/9z4PvStDAUU?is=rsg0izklE5egkUOx
Forty some years later we also recorded the tune. We enjoyed getting together at Walt and Annie's for dinner and playing music around a maple table Walt had made. It always sounded good, and we decided to try recording it, so we hung up our two microphones, and this is the result:
youtu.be/-5vzghVajs4?is=CkUclFfNwByw4a8s
With a little wink and nod to the Skillet Lickers, we titled it "Liberty off the Corn Liquor Still" on our LP "Fire On the Mountain," and the name seems to have stuck.
I don't think we really played it quite like the Skillet Lickers, but I think the feeling was similar. I have no idea what transcriptions you've found, or what your friend might consider the "original."
Good luck, Lee! Its a crazy tune.

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Doug, it seems that research is your 'super power'..

Have any of you ever been 'challenged' to learn a tune in a specific way? (nothing to do with Gid Tanner}

I think tunes should be allowed to evolve, morph, transition, and live their lives as they see fit. That's why I prefer solo to group fiddle, whether playing or listening. And that's why I have no friends.

I'm starting to figure it out:
1. As long as the bass doesn't have to miss or gain a beat.
2. As long as the guitar pickers changes remain in the same place.
(ready the slings & arrows) It's amazing what you can play within that framework. Now, go ahead and improvise within a 4 or 5 chord tune in Cm, with a 'round the horn turn-around. Not much room. As long as 1& 2 are OK, I get paid.

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Have any of you ever been 'challenged' to learn a tune in a specific way? (nothing to do with Gid Tanner}

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Lee, depends on the genre.  I used to have to get fiddle solos note for note, when I was playing in Country bands, doing pickup work.  They want to hear the fiddle break exactly as the original band recorded it.   At Old Time jams and the OT gigs I've done, it again depends.  Tradidtional Music Association jams were more sheet music reading sessions, so no variation was permitted and I had to learn the version of the dots on the spot (after hearing it once around).  Other OT sessions and gigs were more lenient regarding variations.   We were just talking about variations on tunes this weekend,  at a Festival we were playing at, with bands from N.E. all the way to Florida, about  regional differences in tunes, that might upset a purist who learn a tune from so and so's grandpappy or recording from 1867 (  :-)  ).     Never been to one, but I hear and read Celtic sessions are sticklers for this and putting in a variation gets you the stink eye the first time and the door on the next. 

  I always have to watch myself when to comes to that, I usually don;t play a tune the same way round with each repeat.  Have to read the room and see how many dirty looks are going round. 

"Liberty" - the tune I've always known it as - youtu.be/7zOXJYW-_Ew

Well my own personal feeling is that the original tune probably isn't really original unless the people recording it actually pulled it out of the sky themselves, I.e. "wrote it." Otherwise it's probably what had morphed from granny's teaching or neighbors or whatever at the hands of the fiddler who lived in the age of recording music and it got to be carved in stone exactly that way. So, I guess if history/musicology is what a person is after then it's well worth their time to study and try to emulate what they hear or see written. Otherwise, seems to me with gratitude for what the generations before left for us to play and enjoy, we should try to make 'em proud by showing ourselves and anybody within earshot of how folk music of our own time can sound...how what we express musically is ours now...even though we inherited the basic melodic contours and chord progressions, etc.

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Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

Well my own personal feeling is that the original tune probably isn't really original unless the people recording it actually pulled it out of the sky themselves, I.e. "wrote it." Otherwise it's probably what had morphed from granny's teaching or neighbors or whatever at the hands of the fiddler who lived in the age of recording music and it got to be carved in stone exactly that way. So, I guess if history/musicology is what a person is after then it's well worth their time to study and try to emulate what they hear or see written. Otherwise, seems to me with gratitude for what the generations before left for us to play and enjoy, we should try to make 'em proud by showing ourselves and anybody within earshot of how folk music of our own time can sound...how what we express musically is ours now...even though we inherited the basic melodic contours and chord progressions, etc.

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My friend Terry, who I referenced in the opening post likes to find the OLDEST known recording of Old Time tunes and tries to learn from that recording.  She hunts down old recording on Slippery Hill a lot.. It is her way of keeping the Oldest recorded version alive.  In this case since she was going to try to learn right off of the Skillet Licker recording I thought I'd better hone my skills on that same recording..I admire her for doing what she is doing but it can be frustrating at times when I'm trying to play a little differently..

TuneWeaver - In this case, the Skillet Lickers was NOT the earliest recording of "Liberty." It was recorded Oct 22, 1928, but it had already been recorded for Victor by Herschel Brown's Washboard Band on February 24, 1928. Like I said, its hard to tell what might be the "original" of t.his tune, or where it really comes from.
BTW, like Terry I sometimes like to find early versions of tunes and learn them as closely as possible, and then make whatever changes I want, rather than learn from somebody who's already screwed it up. Although there's nothing wrong with learning whatever version might appeal to you. Also I've had the opportunity to play with a lot of older musicians, and I certainly wasn't going to tell someone like Lee Sexton how his tunes "ought" to be played.

There’s a lot of confusion over the tune “Liberty.” The version I’ve always known is the one Al linked, which is completely different from the tune at the beginning of the thread. I always associate it with Bob Wills, and I learned it as a twin fiddle tune, which is how I played it growing up with my father. Looking online, some sources say that Bob Wills wrote the tune, which is either wrong or it just means the arrangement.

It gets more complicated, though, as there are claims that it was originally a Canadian, Scottish, or Irish tune that made its way into the U.S. and was then renamed. There are some legends about it as well—that Benjamin Franklin wrote it or that he liked it so much that he requested it as the national anthem. While Franklin did play the violin to some degree and he did compose music, there’s no proof that he was familiar with the tune (if it even existed then).

Doug’s explanation seems to merge the two tunes together, claiming that the tune in his examples is actually “Liberty” and that the reference to the still is a reference to an album name. Whether or not that’s true, it seems that the Highwoods added to the confusion by recording it with the name “Liberty Off the Corn Liqour Still.” The Hershall Brown recording lists it as "Liberty--Breakdown," which may imply the tune name is Liberty or may not. Now no one seems to be able to decide when it was written or where it originated. It also seems that two distinct tunes are getting conflated. This is another case where a study of recordings and publications could help to weed out the misinformation.

Respectfully, the idea of this topic was Not to be about the tunes called 'liberty', but rather was intended to be about being challenged to learn a new version of ANY tune.... I obviously have failed to get that point across...The Liberty tune I referenced was just an Example used to make my point... I can however, see  where the confusion may be..... 

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

Respectfully, the idea of this topic was Not to be about the tunes called 'liberty', but rather was intended to be about being challenged to learn a new version of ANY tune.... I obviously have failed to get that point across...The Liberty tune I referenced was just an Example used to make my point... I can however, see  where the confusion may be..... 

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Ok, but the problem was that you described a fellow player trying to learn tunes by learning original versions, not just any new version. The discussion that followed was based on the uncertainty about when the tune you referenced was written and which version should be considered original--so that your colleague could fulfill her stated desire to learn original versions.

What's challenging about playing tunes the way a group plays them? Isn't that a pretty standard part of playing in any group if you're not the leader? Isn't that basically a description of the "Folk Process?"

The bottom line, Lee...enjoy the challenge...just be up front with your friend and tell her that version has some extra kicks here and there that are new to you, and y'all just yell out, "A-one and A-two and just hang on!" like the Darlin's did in Mayberry...you'll have fun and be sure to laugh off any stumbles along the way. Just enjoy. Help your friend enjoy too.

I got ya about the ‘drift’, Lee!

It’s fuzzy…like if you’re a famous fiddler, they’ll call it brilliant and try to copy your variations.

If you’re less famous, they’ll ask you where you got your version…:-)

And the version one group settles on, is not always the one the other group settles on, so it’s hard to remember which group plays it which way! Hmm I kind of try to adapt on the spot and change any parts that clash…but 90%+ of the time, both ways sound fine together…?

And - Welcome back Peggy!

There are other variables as well to consider. Some tunes can turn up in sessions in unfamiliar keys. This is usually based on which key suits which instrument.
Some people play more parts to a tune. For example The King Of The Pipers is often played as a four part as well as a six.
Some people can play a tune as single while others play it double. The Groves hornpipe is a good example of this.

Yes, variation is something we all deal with in sessions ( Al, I think most Irish sessions are more forgiving than to throw someone out for playing the wrong version of a tune!). When I go back to source recordings for tunes I've played forever I often find I've introduced a variation here or there and I usually try to weed them out.

Single vs double reels are problematic for me-- for instance I play The Killavil Fancy as a single reel and another player learned it double, which is super hard for me to remember if we're playing it together! Autopilot and all that...I'm sure it's just as hard for him to play it 'my way'.

IT’s interesting because with some of the older tunes, you listen to the older players playing them and they are so wildly different! I think that because the older players did not have easy ubiquitous access to recordings, their tune versions became more personal and idiosyncratic.

It’s interesting to listen to, and it also reminds us that there is NOT just “one good / right version”…

@JonD: lately playing Golden Keyboard/Lads of Laoise/Killavil Fancy :-) 

But different or unique do not necessarily equate to better. Sometimes a player is talented enough as a composer or interpreter that a definitive version is found.

In classical playing, there was the Heifetz effect—his interpretations of great works were so definitive that ever after other players have had to choose either to emulate Heifetz to some degree or to try to be different just for the sake of being different and end up making a dull or weird recordings that don't stack up.

I don’t see why fiddling should be different, provided the definitive recordings are masterfully made by players who are consummate interpreters.

Playing different versions can be a good learning experience, and it’s necessary to learn particular versions for various groups. But whether doing so is directly linked to improvement is unclear.

I’ve mentioned it before, but I occasionally hear players saying that they avoid sessions because they feel the group preferences and stylistic choices dilute their own playing.

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

But different or unique do not necessarily equate to better. Sometimes a player is talented enough as a composer or interpreter that a definitive version is found.

In classical playing, there was the Heifetz effect—his interpretations of great works were so definitive that ever after other players have had to choose either to emulate Heifetz to some degree or to try to be different just for the sake of being different and end up making a dull or weird recordings that don't stack up.

I don’t see why fiddling should be different, provided the definitive recordings are masterfully made by players who are consummate interpreters.

Playing different versions can be a good learning experience, and it’s necessary to learn particular versions for various groups. But whether doing so is directly linked to improvement is unclear.

I’ve mentioned it before, but I occasionally hear players saying that they avoid sessions because they feel the group preferences and stylistic choices dilute their own playing.

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Sorry Rich. I don't know what sessions you go to there. Over here none of that is true. You would be flabbergasted at the versions and variations to be found in sessions here. We're not talking county to county but pub to the pub next door. Maybe we are a nation of Heifetzes and nobody cares if we play it plainly. The marking system in the Fleadh competition (which about 95% of trad musicians participate in at some time, usually in their childhood) recognizes: Tuning, Timing, Tempo and Variation. The judging is neutral in regards to Versions. It invariably comes down to Variation that decides the winner.  In the competition the variation must be judged to compliment the tune. If someone takes the variation across the field and into another paddock they get blown out of the competition regardless as to how good they are. Anything outside of the comp is considered a free for all. 

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Originally posted by martyjoe

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

But different or unique do not necessarily equate to better. Sometimes a player is talented enough as a composer or interpreter that a definitive version is found.

In classical playing, there was the Heifetz effect—his interpretations of great works were so definitive that ever after other players have had to choose either to emulate Heifetz to some degree or to try to be different just for the sake of being different and end up making a dull or weird recordings that don't stack up.

I don’t see why fiddling should be different, provided the definitive recordings are masterfully made by players who are consummate interpreters.

Playing different versions can be a good learning experience, and it’s necessary to learn particular versions for various groups. But whether doing so is directly linked to improvement is unclear.

I’ve mentioned it before, but I occasionally hear players saying that they avoid sessions because they feel the group preferences and stylistic choices dilute their own playing.

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Sorry Rich. I don't know what sessions you go to there. Over here none of that is true. You would be flabbergasted at the versions and variations to be found in sessions here. We're not talking county to county but pub to the pub next door. Maybe we are a nation of Heifetzes and nobody cares if we play it plainly. The marking system in the Fleadh competition (which about 95% of trad musicians participate in at some time, usually in their childhood) recognizes: Tuning, Timing, Tempo and Variation. The judging is neutral in regards to Versions. It invariably comes down to Variation that decides the winner.  In the competition the variation must be judged to compliment the tune. If someone takes the variation across the field and into another paddock they get blown out of the competition regardless as to how good they are. Anything outside of the comp is considered a free for all. 

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To play Devil's Advocate a bit, though, aren't a lot of people saying that Irish music is being lost because the regional styles are disappearing? Isn't it a general criticism in music that as people embrace things like World Music, everything turns into one amorphous gestalt? At the sessions where I play, people often talk about the regional styles in Ireland that are still observed in the "good" sessions and they talk about going to particular pubs in specific towns on their trips. They are looking for a traditional and distinct style of playing in each place that's not as commercial. I hear that the more tourist-heavy spots tend to have sessions that are more global to appeal to foreigners. A friend told me that he'd stopped in at a big session in a popular spot and that the players there were interested in experimenting with both the style and instrumentation, like adding a snare drum to a session.

A long time ago someone told me that if I really wanted to know what traditional Scottish fiddling sounded like, I'd need to listen to Nova Scotia players, who had kept the Scottish fiddle tradition alive in relative isolation, unlike on the Scottish mainland, where the style had morphed considerably and no longer sounded like the traditional form.