Olgraypat - Posted - 07/10/2009:  10:51:40

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Okay. I need to break things down to the lowest, simplest level. So, my question is this......If we think about the notes in any key....eg, "C".....the notes would be....
C<D<E<F<G<A<B<C..

Say my song begins on the root note...C. and next note is F......

Now if I play the same notes in the same key....but start on "D" and make my next note "G".....same spaced interval ......hmmmm...

Have I just changed the mode?

Olgraypat - Posted - 07/10/2009:  10:53:50

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Okay...sorry....not play the same notes in the same key...but play same spaced intervals, but different notes...

C D E F or...

D E F G

OTJunky - Posted - 07/10/2009:  11:22:06

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If you use the notes in a "C" scale and play them C to C, you are playing an "Ionian" mode scale.

If you use these same notes and play them D to D, you are playing a "Dorian" mode scale.

If you use thse same notes and play them G to G, you are playing a "Mixolydian" mode scale.

If you use these same notes and play them A to A, your are playing an "Aeolian" mode scale.

At least I think this is right. I often get confused about it.

There are other "modes" starting on other notes - and names for each of them - but I think these are the only modes commonly found in OT music. Jazz players use some of the other modes though rarely and mostly to show off.

The Ionian mode scale is also commonly called a "major" scale.

The Aeolian mode scale is commonly called a "natural minor" scale.

I've always thought of "Keys" and "Scales" as closely related but a bit different. I think of the underlying scale as defining the set of notes you might use when playing a melody and the key as defining what chords you might use to either harmonize the melody or provide chordal accompaniment.

Midway between scales and keys, you find "drones" as used on the Appalachian dulcimer or on many bagpipes. Usually with "drones" two strings - or chanters - are tuned to play the first and fifth notes of the scale to establish the modality of the scale.

So, when you play a melody on the dulcimer in C Ionian mode, you'd tune the two drone strings to C and G. But if you wanted to play a melody on the dulcimer in D Dorian mode, you'd tune the two drone strings to D and A . This is just an example. I don't think Appalachian dulcimers typically play in C..

As an aside, none of this "modal" scale stuff made much sense to me until I starting playing around with an Appalachian Dulcimer. But when you have one of those things on your lap it all begins makes perfect sense - and even begins to seem magical.

I'm sure the Greeks - who came up with this modal scale stuff - must've been playing around on some musical instrument with drone strings...

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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Edited by - OTJunky on 07/10/2009 11:27:17

OTJunky - Posted - 07/10/2009:  11:34:40

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quote:

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Originally posted by Olgraypat

Okay. I need to break things down to the lowest, simplest level. So, my question is this......If we think about the notes in any key....eg, "C".....the notes would be....
C<D<E<F<G<A<B<C..

Say my song begins on the root note...C. and next note is F......

Now if I play the same notes in the same key....but start on "D" and make my next note "G".....same spaced interval ......hmmmm...

Have I just changed the mode?

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So, after writing that long post on modal scales, I'm still not sure I under stand the question you're asking.

If I take this post literally, the answer would be that your not changing the mode, you're changing the key.

But when I read your second post.

quote:

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[i]Olgraypat wrote:[/i[

Okay...sorry....not play the same notes in the same key...but play same spaced intervals, but different notes...

C D E F or...

D E F G

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You'd have to write "D E F# G" in order to play the "same spaced intervals".

Guess, you'll have to say more - or maybe somebody else will understand it better than me.



--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

mateo - Posted - 07/10/2009:  16:23:37

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Yes you have changed from Ionian Mode to Dorian Mode in the example you state.

FiddlPat - Posted - 07/10/2009:  18:34:29

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At Berklee they teach 'the ear has a memory but no eyes.' It can't see where it's going, but it knows where it's been. It'll take as gospel what you tell it when you state the key by the chord and or the 'pedal tone',,the drone note,,low pitch, when the piece starts,,,so,,,,,if you play C D E F G A B C and you start with a low bass as a C note and/or a C chord,,the ear hears that it is in C. C major is C Ionian mode. if you take the same notes of the C scale, but start with a D pedal tone(or D minor, or D 1/5 with no 3rd, because the 3rd determines major or minor), and play D to D,,you're in D Dorian mode. Same with E,,which is E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian(our well known natural minor relative to C major), and B Locrian(almost never used). It's telling your ear what the key center is by the use of the accompanying chords and or pedal tones(drone) that sets the stage,,cuz your ear will take your word for it.

The major scale, derived from our 12 (semi)tone system, uses 7 of the the 12 available notes of the octave scale. It is composed of Two TETRACHORDS, which consist of 4 notes each, and each note is a whole tone, or 2 half tones(steps) apart, except for the 4th note of the tetrachord, which is a half step from the third.,,,,so the 1 and 2 are a whole step, and the 2 and 3 are a whole step, but the 3 and 4 are a half step,,,then you go one whole step up, and start the next or second tetrachord in the same manner. It is stated 2 2 1 TWO 2 2 1, and these numbers represent not the notes, but the (half)steps between the notes. I wrote out the word TWO to differentiate between the 2 2 1 of the first tetrachord and the 2 2 1 of the second tetrachord. It is often stated 2 2 1 2 2 2 1,,,but that confuses the point I'm trying to make. The last note of the second Tetrachord is an octave higher then the first note of the first Tetrachord. This works for any note you start on,,and if you follow that, you'll get the major scale,,and then derive the several common modes from that.

If the first note doesn't state the key, the last note usually will. The ear knows where it wants to go,,,,,home.

Niel Gow''s epitaph:
Time and Gow are even now
Gow beat time and time beat Gow

Olgraypat - Posted - 07/11/2009:  05:08:01

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Thanks a lot. That's exactly what I was asking, although maybe not very clearly. Not sure I 've got everything up there, but thanks for the help. So, is there any reason not to [lay, say, Dorian mode, if someone else is playing Ionian? Will that mess everything up?

FiddlPat - Posted - 07/11/2009:  05:18:26

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It's the chord structure supporting the whole mess that makes Dorian from Ionian, or Phrygian,,even though they all use the same notes in common. The mother Mode(Lode? LOL), is Ionian, typically. It's closest mode, in that series, in the mode of the 5th,,that is, Mixolydian, which is almost the same 'cept the 7th note is flatted, often called Celtic Major,(So you're using the notes of the C scale, but playing in G, as it were, by using G chords to tell the ear what you're doing) and also the Dorian mode, the mode of the 2nd, which is often called Celtic minor,,same as the regular Aeolian(mode of the 6th) minor, 'cept you're using the notes of the C scale, but making the key be D, by playing D(minor) chords, instead of A(minor) chords, and it has a raised,,not flatted, 6th degree. The normal Aeolian 6th mode minor has 2,3 and 6 flatted(from a regular major scale structure standpoint, but the Dorian has only 2 and 3 flatted)

Niel Gow''s epitaph:
Time and Gow are even now
Gow beat time and time beat Gow

OTJunky - Posted - 07/11/2009:  05:44:53

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quote:

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Originally posted by Olgraypat

So, is there any reason not to [lay, say, Dorian mode, if someone else is playing Ionian? Will that mess everything up?

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Yes - that will mess things up.

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2009:  08:46:01

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Be careful, OTJ-
the antimodalanalyzers could show up at any minute!

You said "mixolydian"!!!!!
Horrors!

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

http://http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/1088/index.php
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

OTJunky - Posted - 07/11/2009:  09:09:49

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quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Be careful, OTJ-
the antimodalanalyzers could show up at any minute!

You said "mixolydian"!!!!!
Horrors!

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We're completely safe.

We're in the Music Theory section and almost no one ever comes here...

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

coelhoe - Posted - 07/11/2009:  09:26:04

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Well, practically no one, dear friends, although the theory discussions for fiddle are a pretty small subset of what is used for pedal steel, my other musical obsession. Still interesting, though.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/11/2009:  09:59:25

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quote:

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Originally posted by OTJunky

quote:

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Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Be careful, OTJ-
the antimodalanalyzers could show up at any minute!

You said "mixolydian"!!!!!
Horrors!

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We're completely safe.

We're in the Music Theory section and almost no one ever comes here...

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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LOL!

You <think>???
I <distinctly> remember some antimodalanalyzers showin' up here about a year ago... and they wuz IRATE!!! COULD happen again, you never know...

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

http://http://c1.ezfolk.com/bands/1088/index.php
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

DougD - Posted - 07/11/2009:  10:35:30

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I'm lurking keeping an eye on you all. I've taken a vow not to discuss modes on fiddle or ukulele forums though.