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seisflutes - Posted - 09/02/2007: 01:46:00
I have been thinking about doing this for a few months now. A friend and I were discussing the hardanger fiddle (hardingfele), and he emailed me a link to this page on the subject: http://www.ehhs.cmich.edu/~dhavlena/hardangr.htm
I do have a cheap fiddle that I never play. I do want to do this, but I'm just a little afraid of screwing it up and ending up with no cheap fiddle and no hardingfele.
I want advice about this part of the process:
quote:
This description of how to make an 8 string tuning block is
going to sound crude -- it is, but it works very nicely. Saw
off the scroll & back 3/4 of the peg-box just "nutwards" of the
E-string tuning-peg holes (ouch!). Angle the saw slightly by
tipping it counterclockwise before sawing (when viewed from the
side & with scroll to the left). From a 1/2" thick plank of
flat wood (hardwood or softwood) fashion a new tuning block (to
accomodate 8 inexpensive mandolin tuning gears) & be sure to
include a "tongue", which when fussed with & fitted carefully,
will plug into the amputated 1/4 of the peg-box. Once a good
fit is obtained, secure new tuning block with glue & small
wood-screws. Beautiful eh! Like I said -- use a cheap fiddle!
i was thinking, would it be better to get a luthier to make a whole new neck with an extra long pegbox? I know replacing the neck of a fiddle is a pain, and maybe it wouldn't be worth it. I just haven't been able to bring myself to saw the pegbox off!
The guy has put a video on youtube of several of his instruments, including this one, and his tuning block actually doesn't look so bad. Thoughts??
Also, this cheapie is UGLY!!! it's bright orange and just has a very ugly finish. I feel like IF I'm going to go to the trouble of converting it, I'd really like to give it a better looking finish, maybe with interesting designs painted on (I can paint, I'm an art major). Perhaps along the lines of this guy's (another youtube video, sorry):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9qy...ated&search=Real hardingfeles are very elaborate.
I'd like to emulate that to some extent, if I'm emulating the sympathetic strings, ya know?
Any recommendations?
Thanks,
Kelly
fiddlepogo - Posted - 09/02/2007: 08:12:35
seisflutes,
I think a better candidate would be a cheap fiddle that already has headstock or scroll damage-
you might be able to get one of those practically free, since a cheap fiddle with a scroll crack would
be worth repairing.
Your cheap fiddle may still have around $75 dollars cash value if playable as is for a violin student.
Talk to Steve Perry of Gianna violins (voodoo on this site)
I get the idea he may have a bunch of older German trade fiddles,
and one of those might make a much more suitable candidate for conversion,
if you're going to have a luthier do the work.
Steve may take a while to respond due to family health problems, though.
Michael
http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo
TomGlos - Posted - 09/02/2007: 08:28:43
Okay, what he suggests is crude, and hardingfele purists may like to point out all the differences from a normal fiddle, but it should work. If your cheapo fiddle has a thickish neck, that's all to the good.
I'd be a bit concerned about the weight you'd be adding, right where you don't want it. Mandolin machines weigh two and a half times as much as the same number of pegs, (I just checked!) but hopefuly your left arm is up to it!
There are much more elegant ways of doing the job, but greater woodworking skills would be needed.
As soon as you take a saw to that pegbox, you're committed! I'd suggest using a mitrebox or similar to make sure that cut is straight and true. As far as the new head goes, you can take as many attempts as needed until you are satisfied, and glue it in place.
If you could outline your woodworking skills/facilities/friends! it would help people pitch answers at a useful level.
How are you planning to cut the neck channel?
My weight comment comes from experience in building a viola d'amore. I thought of using machines, then realised the weight was a no no. I used banjo strings for sympathetics. I'd have guessed mandolin strings to be too heavy
The thing could go wrong at any point! After a reasonable amount of planning it's just a case of going for it!
Best of luck.
SlowPockets - Posted - 09/02/2007: 09:17:44
quote:
Remove the fingerboard. These are generally (but not always)
held on with weak glue. Find the weakest part of the
glue-joint & encourage the fingerboard off with the careful
help of a very thin knife and some wetness.
I've done this once (on a cheap fiddle) and
some wetness is an understatement. I steamed it forever and still snapped a part of it off, a thin knife and a wet rag are not going to get the job done IMO. The way I did it was to take a big stock pot, fill it up with water and get it boiling. I just happen to have a lid for the pot with a small round vent in it that lets the steam jet out at that one place. I built a rig to hold the part of the fiddles neck I was working on over that steam jet, I let it sit for about ten or fifteen minutes. Then I took a really thin putty knife and worked around the edges.
In retrospect I'll say that the one I tried this on may have been more of a VSO than a cheap fiddle. The fingerboard wasn't actually ebony it was only painted to look like it, and the fingerboard itself may have been held on with something besides hide glue because it was very difficult to remove, for all I know it could have been superglue.
Good luck with your project, if you start it maybe you could take some pictures as your working and post them up so we can see how you're doing it, I know I'm really interested in your results.
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"bluegrass is nothing but a hillbilly version of jazz." - Kenny Baker
SlowPockets - Posted - 09/02/2007: 09:29:17
Me again, I'm not trying to come off as being negative here but if I were you I wouldn't worry about the finish on the fiddle you have now I'd just leave it as is. If you really wanted to make a decorative fiddle with engravings and such I would consider just buying a white fiddle or even a kit fiddle. In the case of the kit fiddle everything would already be in pieces (no disassembly) and it would be unfinished (paint and carve away). If funds are an issue than you could sell the current fiddle, like fiddlepogo said, to help pay for the new one. I think the money you would spend would make up for all that extra work you would be doing in the long run.
just my 2¢
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"bluegrass is nothing but a hillbilly version of jazz." - Kenny Baker
seisflutes - Posted - 09/02/2007: 12:35:14
quote:
originally posted by fiddlepogo
seisflutes,
I think a better candidate would be a cheap fiddle that already has headstock or scroll damage-
you might be able to get one of those practically free, since a cheap fiddle with a scroll crack would
be worth repairing.
That's a good idea, I like it. I'll look into that.
quote:
originally posted by TomGlos
Okay, what he suggests is crude, and hardingfele purists may like to point out all the differences from a normal fiddle, but it should work. If your cheapo fiddle has a thickish neck, that's all to the good.
I'd be a bit concerned about the weight you'd be adding, right where you don't want it. Mandolin machines weigh two and a half times as much as the same number of pegs, (I just checked!) but hopefuly your left arm is up to it!
There are much more elegant ways of doing the job, but greater woodworking skills would be needed.
I like the "it should work" !
That's what I want to hear!
I think I can handle the weight. I hold the fiddle up more with my chin normally, but if my arm has to take some of the weight, it can.
quote:
originally posted by TomGlos
As soon as you take a saw to that pegbox, you're committed! I'd suggest using a mitrebox or similar to make sure that cut is straight and true. As far as the new head goes, you can take as many attempts as needed until you are satisfied, and glue it in place.
If you could outline your woodworking skills/facilities/friends! it would help people pitch answers at a useful level.
How are you planning to cut the neck channel?
I know, that's why I've hesitated thus far!
As far as my woodworking skills go, I'm good with my hands, I make reeds for uilleann pipes (which have to be extremely precise in order to work, which mine do), I've done a good bit of bamboo and PVC flute and whistle making, I whittle, I've built chicken coops, I made a weird sort of guitar once (it was just one long board that I shaped and put frets on then added a gourd for a resonator), but I've never done anything to a fiddle before.
Facilities: not great at the moment. At home I have lots of tools, and a place to use them, but here (apartment, college) not so much. I can go home on weekends though, it's not that far. Still, I don't have a proper workshop.
Friends: I do have a friend who's a pipemaker, but he's supposed to be helping me make some regulators for my pipes, and well, he takes his time getting anything done.
I thought I'd use a chisel, as he suggests. I have chisels. I haven't thought a great deal about exactly
how, but I suppose I'll just sort of mark out where it's to go and start chiseling.
quote:
originally posted by TomGlos
My weight comment comes from experience in building a viola d'amore. I thought of using machines, then realised the weight was a no no. I used banjo strings for sympathetics. I'd have guessed mandolin strings to be too heavy
The thing could go wrong at any point! After a reasonable amount of planning it's just a case of going for it!
Best of luck.
I know! I'm hoping it doesn't. Thanks!
TomGlos - Posted - 09/02/2007: 14:00:00
If you can make reeds that work, plus the other things you mention, I reckon you'd make a success of this.
When taking fingerboards off, I use an artists' pallette knife and start underneath the fingerboard where it starts to "fly" over the front. Damage from getting the knife in there don't show so much! I keep heating the knife in a saucepan of simmering water, but I'm not trying to get water into the joint. Some are easy, some are hard. I probably shouldn't admit this, but It seems to me a matter of getting the knife in there with a bit of heat so the glue can be cracked. Perhaps it's lack of patience but in general it seems to me that the knife is often acting as a delicate wedge rather than actually softening the glue very much.
I deny it. I never said that!
With regard to cutting the neck channel, I'd use a craft knife and ruler to scribe the edges of the channel and keep the edges clean, then as I take out the waste with the chisel, keep the knife cuts going just a fraction deeper all the time to keep the side walls clean. I certainly wouldn't attempt to use a mallet!
I don't need to say "do be careful if you're working without a bench" etc, do I?
On stuff like drilling the new head for the machines even non-woodworking friends can be a help if you're doing it with a hand drill. Two watchers can help get that drill perpendicular before you start. Obviously with this method, all that can happen before you attach the head extension to the fiddle.
You know what the cheapo fiddle is worth to you. Basic Chinese fiddles run at under £25, say $50, here in the UK. They can make surprisingly good 14" violas!
I looked around for a violin with neck damage in order to do a Baroque conversion, but didn't find one. That was pre Eb*y days, though.
Tom
Edited by - TomGlos on 09/02/2007 14:02:50
coelhoe - Posted - 09/02/2007: 14:36:38
It was a long time ago, but the last time I played a Hardangerfele (on the Hardanger fjord, of course) the instrument was quite a bit bigger than a standard violin. Loved the sound, though. Here's the best source I know of, including lots of makers and other resources:
http://www.hfaa.org/index.html
Dennis
seisflutes - Posted - 09/02/2007: 14:38:34
Cool. I have a palette knife, being an art major and all. I did think that might be a good tool to use for that step.
That sounds like the approach I most likely would have used for cutting the channel anyway. It's great to have a second and more experienced opinion confirming all my guesses!
And yes, I'll be careful.
I still dislike the bright orange finish....
seisflutes - Posted - 09/02/2007: 14:40:47
Yeah, I know about hfaa. There's absolutely no way I could afford a real hardingfele. I may get a bridge from them or something.
seisflutes - Posted - 09/14/2007: 01:47:11
Update:
Well, I have started on this project! It's rather exciting.
So far I have the fingerboard off (seriously bent my palette knife in the process, but did get the fingerboard off!), and have stared the channels in both the neck and fingerboard. I've been doing a lot of reading on the subject of hardanger fiddles, and have learned (not surprisingly) that they sound best when the sympathetics are as close as possible to the top strings, so I've decided to emphasize the channel in the underside of the fingerboard.
I neglected to take a true "before" picture, but here's one of the fiddle with the fingerboard removed:
The orange finish looks less offensive than it really is because of the lighting. It's much more garish in real life.
ladymuse - Posted - 09/14/2007: 03:37:47
I'm watching too - all eyes! Just curious, anyone -
how would (or would at all) would planetary pegs be on a hardingfele? (saving weight, control perhaps?
Jen
Laughing, Captain and King flew over the waves
hunting to catch the mooncoin sliding into the sea
seisflutes - Posted - 09/14/2007: 04:38:26
I bet they'd be great, especially for the sympathetics. I can't use them on this project though, because I won't have a proper pegbox.
TomGlos - Posted - 09/14/2007: 12:17:30
Good progress!
Yes, I've bent palette knives in that process too! (I didn't say that before, did I.)
If it was me, I'd be very tempted to consider a built up pegbox rather than the "mandolin head in a socket."
A bit more work maybe but a much nicer result. A little ikedame japanese saw and a coping saw (or hand fretsaw) could be the main tools. (Lots of other options.)
Best of luck anyway.
Tom
seisflutes - Posted - 09/14/2007: 13:23:10
I did consider trying to build a pegbox at one point, but decided it was probably beyond my abilities to make it structurally sound.
Another thing about this project is it's a great motivator. I tell myself, "Right Kelly, you can't work on the fiddle until you've written at least a page of that paper that's due on Tuesday," and it helps.
seisflutes - Posted - 09/14/2007: 21:58:52
Pictures (not very good ones) of the neck and fingerboard channels as of now:
Sorry the pictures are so dark. It's night. Also sorry about my face peering over the fingerboard. I meant to crop that out, but then I realized that would crop off a large portion of the fingerboard too.
SlowPockets - Posted - 10/03/2007: 08:04:23
How's this fiddle coming along, still working on it?
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"bluegrass is nothing but a hillbilly version of jazz." - Kenny Baker
SlowPockets - Posted - 10/03/2007: 13:01:42
I've got one that looks just like that, I was going to strip it and refinish it just for the experience. Glad to see you're still making progress.
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"bluegrass is nothing but a hillbilly version of jazz." - Kenny Baker
Midwest_Fiddler - Posted - 10/03/2007: 14:30:53
You probably already know this. Ron Poast, the fellow that made my Hardanger fiddle, does the designs on the instrument with pen & ink. He told me he puts a thin coat of finish on the white fiddle 1st and when that is dry, he then draws the designs. Then he applies the finish over that. If one draws on the bare wood it spreads and you wouldn't have the nice sharp lines.
Ron Poast builds a lot of hardingfele at his shop in Black Earth, WI. (Poast Mark) They are beautiful. Mine was made in 1987- you can see some pictures at my homepage picture archive.
Chirps
seisflutes - Posted - 10/03/2007: 14:46:01
Yep, I know about rosing. I intend to give it a try. :)
Your fiddle is lovely. I seriously doubt that I'll give my decorations quite that much detail though!
Edited by - seisflutes on 10/03/2007 14:48:38
Yopparai - Posted - 10/03/2007: 16:39:45
Dennis Havlena is one of my favorite home-made instrument people on the whole internet. I am looking forward to seeing this project progress.
ladymuse - Posted - 10/03/2007: 21:52:47
WOWIE!
Hey I love the eyes under the fingerboard/neck - that's a cool photo!
Are you going to do the rosing freehand, or are there stencils/graphite paper transfer that you'll be using?
Jen
Also - is there a specific ink to use? (if you are drawing on the finish)
that won/t melt spread when you overcoat it?)
(I really have this urge to draw on my fiddle!!)
here's a link for those who want to know a bit more on rosemaling
it is a very cool craft! Rosing is what happens to fiddles ( feles) with pen&ink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemaling
Edited by - ladymuse on 10/03/2007 23:56:24
seisflutes - Posted - 10/03/2007: 22:33:14
From what I've read, the thing to do is draw it out with a pencil first, then go over it with India ink. I'll do it freehand.
ladymuse - Posted - 10/04/2007: 00:13:35
Hi - sorry to pull you off and make you post again - but I am so totally curious.
You see, as a kid, I had an uncle erik, from denmark. He worked for pan am -(int. airline)
He would bring + play the hardanger when his traveling permitted -
but he had 5 strings as sympathetics - and they were tuned to the pentatonic scale - (within the 4 upper strings range.) it was truly wild sounding in person! (It pretty deeply impressed ME!)
Anyway - I am aware that there seem to be hardangers today, that have only 4 drone strings - usually crossed tune within the key.
I know there are reg 5 string ones, but I do hear that more out of the actual scandinavian players of the trad hardanger repertoire.
What are you planning on doing? - as you mention 8, so I assume you are doubling, with the 4 drone strings.
Curious about how you view 4 versus 5, and what the heck are you going to do with the tailpiece?
jen
seisflutes - Posted - 10/04/2007: 00:26:55
I'm just going with 4 sympathetics. From what I understand, most modern hardangers have 5. Something like they add a drone string once every hundred years. But I'm going with 4. That way I can just use one set of mandolin tuners.
Yes, the tailpiece is slightly puzzling. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. But I think what I'm going to do is drill four more holes in an existing one, a bit further back than the regular slots, and file them into a keyhole type shape, and hope that sympathetic strings have ball ends. :)
ladymuse - Posted - 10/04/2007: 06:46:32
Thank you -suddenly you have me all inspired - really looking forward to seeing what you do with this!
The tailpiece should probably work - - Can't wait to see it evolve!
Jen!
Groucho Marx - Posted - 10/04/2007: 12:45:12
I'm enjoying watching this project develop. Thanks for posting your updates.
-Clifford
I am the Groucho Marx of fiddle playing.
seisflutes - Posted - 10/04/2007: 21:55:26
Here's the first of the decorations I've done:
ladymuse - Posted - 10/04/2007: 23:04:23
hooooweeeeee!
That's Mammoth!
Did you draw on a clear coat, or straight on the finish up to that point? Will you overcoat it ??!!!
Man, Fascinating and lovely!
could the the inking do anything to the tone?
Ron's links are great -!
your links are richer though, cause you are here!
jen
Edited by - ladymuse on 10/04/2007 23:06:43
seisflutes - Posted - 10/04/2007: 23:43:26
Got the other side at the bottom done:
I drew straight on the finish up to that point (which is basically a thin wash of oil color). I'm going to do a coat of oil varnish over the ink drawings.
I doubt the ink is going to cause a noticeable difference in tone, but even if it did, it would be hard to tell, since there are going to be extra strings and other modifications that will undoubtedly make a greater difference.
seisflutes - Posted - 10/05/2007: 23:31:22
I think I've finished the designs on the front. I had planned to have something in the middle, but I like the way it looks now, so I'm leaving that out. Front down, sides and back to go!
seisflutes - Posted - 10/08/2007: 01:48:16
This is what I'm trying for the bridge. It's the original bridge, modified with an inset of walnut for the sympathetics. If it doesn't work, I'll try getting a real hardanger bridge blank and cutting that.
seisflutes - Posted - 10/08/2007: 02:18:11
And here is the nut for the understrings:
And while I'm at it, I started on drilling holes in the tailpiece too:
Edited by - seisflutes on 10/08/2007 02:22:11
ladymuse - Posted - 10/08/2007: 02:39:16
Go Kelly, Go!
Man! This is so exciting to watch!!!!!!
Jen!
seisflutes - Posted - 10/08/2007: 15:08:34
one side is now decorated:
tiquose - Posted - 10/08/2007: 16:08:44
Oh! It is so beautiful! Thank you for sharing this journey with us.
Janet
"Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back." -my grandmother, Bertha Morgan Nelson
seisflutes - Posted - 10/08/2007: 16:32:25
Thank you! :) I'm having such fun with this. It's starting to distract me from my studies just a bit, but who cares? This is much more interesting.
ladymuse - Posted - 10/08/2007: 17:50:21
Hey!
Maybe you can take it in with your pics as you went along, and get some extra credit for it!
I think it definitely should be known - and all though studies/art - you really (if you haven't already) let the music department know!
Sigh! the ability to draw like that just blows me away - it's a beauty!
Jen
seisflutes - Posted - 10/08/2007: 17:57:41
Heh heh. No, I'm keeping it separate from college life. It's nice to have something to use as an escape from paper-writing and all that. This thing is in my music life, not my school life. The two don't tend to mix. :)
ladymuse - Posted - 10/08/2007: 18:28:11
well, I can see that - however once all is done, and you are in a comfortable place, you might start getting yourself known! - such as I bet there's mags (strings AND Luthiers - (and newspapers, etc - that would love to see what a beautiful thing can come out of a cheap fiddle, with just a little bit of perserverance - and lots of love -
Yep - you have a real calling card/pr item! ((to use if ever wanted.)
I find what you are doing so much more personal than the official "this is how a violin is made" sites.
Can I be your agent when you do? Wowie! you are going places!
Jen
seisflutes - Posted - 10/08/2007: 18:32:48
Well, we'll see, if I manage to get to the end successfully and don't destroy it by accident!
seisflutes - Posted - 10/08/2007: 18:49:25
I need to get a set of tuners. Does anyone by any chance have a good source for some like the ones on this mandolin?? http://www.folkofthewood.com/Images...delmont3.jpg
I like the way they look, the black buttons with black shafts.
I found these but I'd rather not have that gold shaft, I'd rather it were black. Plus they're expensive, but I sort of expect that. Still, gold plating is a non-essential expense.
Edited by - seisflutes on 10/08/2007 18:50:39
ladymuse - Posted - 10/09/2007: 00:41:26
long lost topic thread here - I found a peck of luthiers and suppliers -
I wonder if any makers here or at the mandolin cafe would know -
But that is a start -
everything I have found is either steell, gold or nickle with the pearlized, white heads, black-
HOWEVER - there are some with removable buttons - but still, it is either gold or silver -
One thing to do is look thru mandolins (sale)- note the hardware, (if right) and contact them for the maker of the hardware -
I'll keep looking -
http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/suppliers.htm
seisflutes - Posted - 10/09/2007: 01:01:33
Yeah, I'll probably have to settle for something other than my ideal. I have also looked extensively, and haven't found much. I might ask the maker of that mandolin and ask about its tuners.
ladymuse - Posted - 10/09/2007: 07:12:49
Is this the same link?lots of sources
this is several places for supplies,luthier, etc -
also don't forget the guys we have - at least they have access to all the company catalogs that they order from -
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/forum/...TOPIC_ID=852
Edited by - ladymuse on 10/09/2007 07:30:45
seisflutes - Posted - 10/09/2007: 15:24:19
Ah ha! They are custom black-plated Grover machine heads. I wonder if the Phoenix mandolin people would sell me a set of their custom tuners.....
ladymuse - Posted - 10/09/2007: 16:47:11
I suggest you or tell send them a picture of your rosing and documented stuff -
I think they will go ape s**t, and hit em with the fact that you are a starving art student - (with her own firm sense of design) they'll go nuts!!!!!!!!!!! Heck - they might say hey! Here's a set reduced to help you on your way!
Jen!
seisflutes - Posted - 10/10/2007: 04:45:46
Here's the back:
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