Grum - Posted - 06/21/2007:  20:43:57

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What notes are the fiddle strings tuned to?

Is it an open tuning? (ie do the stings play a chord like G on a Banjo?)

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Edited by - OTJunky on 05/30/2008 17:41:42

wormbower - Posted - 06/21/2007:  20:59:28

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Well, being an utter beginner, it's shameful of me to volunteer an answer, but seeing as I'm pretty much the only other one around here:

The "standard" fiddle tuning is (from the 4th, low string to the high, 1st string): G, D, A, E

But, especially in old-time fiddling, there are plenty of other tunings, such as "cross A" (AEAE)tuning.

Depending on what style of fiddling you're interested in learning, here are some good books and DVDs I've been working with (I'm trying to learn old-time fiddling):

The American Fiddle Method, by Brian Wicklund (two book/CD volumes and an accompanying DVD)
Old-Time Fiddle for the Complete Ignoramus, by Wayne Erbsen (Book/CD)
Learn to Play Old-Time Fiddle, by Brad Leftwich (2-DVD volumes)

Paul

BanjoBrad - Posted - 06/21/2007:  21:13:48

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"Standard" fiddle tuning is in 5ths, but like Paul said, the old timers used whatever they needed to get the sound they wanted. Two common 'cross tunings' are GDGD, where the 1st and 2nd strings are tuned down a whole step, and AEAE where the 3rd and 4th strings are tuned up a whole step.

Banjo Brad
www.PricklyPearMusic.net
ezFolk Page

Grum - Posted - 06/21/2007:  22:18:38

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Oh dear! It's gotten complicated already!

BanjoBrad - Posted - 06/21/2007:  22:57:04

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Concentrate on the 'standard' tuning until you get the bow and your fingers under control. If possible, I heartily recommend that you take some lessons. You need to understand how to hold and draw the bow, how to hold the fiddle (I recommend the 'classical' position unless you have some physical problems with it), and where the notes are on the fingerboard. If you don't, I also recommend that you learn to read music - it isn't hard, and will be of great use to you in the future. There are several methods of fiddle tab, and I find them all rather confusing. Notation for the fiddle mainly consists of knowing note values, timing, etc., and the correlation of where the dot appears on the paper and what finger and string you use to play that note.

It isn't really that hard - the hard part is getting the sound out of the fiddle on time and on tune! I still have problems with that stuff.


Banjo Brad
www.PricklyPearMusic.net
ezFolk Page

stumpkicker - Posted - 06/22/2007:  06:12:24

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You tune yours?

Gee it's already more difficult than banjo playing.

Twelvefret - Posted - 06/22/2007:  07:41:23

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Old Time fiddlers had several tunings because of it made playing a tune easier or that they were after a certain sound.

Bonapart Retreat is played in what is called Dead Man Tuning where all the strings are tuned to D except the A string. This allows a droning effect that sounds like a bagpipe, pretty cool!!

I have seen fiddler perform having brought two and three fiddle along so they would not need to retune one fiddle.

I agree to start with standard tuning.

chuck

Couchie - Posted - 06/23/2007:  14:22:39

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Different fiddle tunings are a lot of fun. Don't be afraid to try them!!

0=='=# + CD=#

Don.

mike jarboe - Posted - 06/24/2007:  20:43:31

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Old-time tunes in D sound pretty good in ADAE tuning. Also, some old-time tunes call for AEAC#.

Adding to the confusion,
Mike

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Edited by - mike jarboe on 06/24/2007 20:44:26

Fiddler - Posted - 06/26/2007:  15:37:58

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I would suggest staying in standard tuning until you're at ease with your instrument and that pesky bow. If are just starting out, taking lessons from someone who can teach you the proper violin techniques, will shorten your learning curve and will help you from developing bad habits.

Tunings are usually given from low string to high. So, standard tuning would be GDAE. There are a whole host of alternate tunings. Classical violinists call it "scordatura" - Italian for "mistuning." OT musicians sometimes have different names for the various tunings: Dead Man's Tuning (DDAD), Calico tuning (AEAC#), Sawmill Key (AEAE). Some tunes are traditionally only played in a certain tuning.

Ok, here are various alternate tunings I regularly use. Which one depends on the tune. They are fun and the overtones are delightful! Don't be afraid to retune.
GDAE (std)
AEAE
AEAC#
AEAD
ADAD
DDAD
ADAE
GDGD

fiddle music - "... it's for the uplifting of people. It's the highest, the most high, most high, most high...'' Marcus Martin

fiddlingbear - Posted - 06/27/2007:  11:33:17

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There are a couple of good books on "cross tuning." One is Marion Thede's "Fiddle Book," and another is put out by Mel Bay and is by a chap from Missouri. Sadly, one needs to have at least a passing knowledge of reading standard musical notation to succeed with either of these books.

We can't make it Here anymore.

Scoville - Posted - 06/27/2007:  13:14:54

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I just got a bunch of OT fiddle stuff and a number of the songs are in B-flat. I assume--I kind of hope, rather--that that calls for a different tuning. What's the deal?

scrubber - Posted - 06/27/2007:  13:51:11

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scoville

I just got a bunch of OT fiddle stuff and a number of the songs are in B-flat. I assume--I kind of hope, rather--that that calls for a different tuning. What's the deal?

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I'm afraid the tuning required for these tunes is the standard G-D-A-E tuning. Tunes in B-flat, B, and other 'unfriendly' fiddle keys are usually played using a technique called "closed position". What this means is that you use finger patterns that omit the open strings (using the fourth finger instead). Although this may be awkward at first, once you get the patterns down you can move your fingers up and down the neck using the same finger patterns, similar to the way a guitar player uses a capo.

Scoville - Posted - 06/27/2007:  14:23:48

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Dang.

That sounds like a new tuning waiting to happen, if you ask me (or maybe it's the Appalachian dulcimer side of my personality, which has to retune for *everything*). Or are there not enough B-flat tunes to warrant it?

Fiddler - Posted - 06/27/2007:  15:18:22

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I'm waiting for someone to invent a capo for a fiddle. That would solve everything. Bb... no problem. Let's see. Where do I put the capo?

(Hey, they invented one for the mountain dulcimer.)

fiddle music - "... it's for the uplifting of people. It's the highest, the most high, most high, most high...'' Marcus Martin

hucktunes - Posted - 06/28/2007:  18:09:03

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A great book for learning to read the music for tunes is Beginning Old Time Fiddle by Alan Kaufman. It has the tabs for the tunes directly above the standard notation and before long you realize that it is much easier to read the notation. I don't mess with cross tuning anymore. I'm too lazy.

hucktunes

OTJunky - Posted - 06/30/2007:  08:32:32

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There aren't many tunes in the Southern tradition that require playing in B-flat so most old time dance fiddler's spend their lives without doing it. But there are a few tunes in "G-Minor" which is the term used for the Dorian mode in G - a scale that has the same notes as B-flat. This is what sucks some fiddler's into learning to play in B-flat. The tunes that come to mind are:

Done Gone - B-flat (Both Eck Robertson and Ed Haley played this)
Garfield's Blackberry Blossom - G-Minor (Ed Haley, Kentrucky)
Cousin Sally Brown - G-Minor (Marcus Martin)

The great Missouri fiddler, Cyril Stinnent, played a lot of tunes in B-flat - and in E-flat. But he lived with his parents, never married and devoted his entire life to fiddling. Most of us - and most Missouri fiddler's - can't make this kind of sacrifice... (;-))

I think the modal tunes like Garfield's Blackberry Blossom are the ones that suck people into learning to play in B-flat if they have the time.

The New England Contra-dance repertoire has B-flat tunes like Lady Walpole's Reel - and F tunes like Hull's Victory. And I think New England fiddler's are supposed to be able to play in these keys.

The Cape Breton tradition has both B-flat and E-flat tunes because it has a lot in common with Scottish fiddling. Natalie McMaster and other Cape Breton fiddlers routinely plays in these keys.

Since I'm mostly interested in Southern dance tunes, my approach has been to only work on B-flat stuff on those rare occasions when I'm tired of just working on the standard repertoire.

A consequence of this approach is that I can't really play anything in B-flat... (;-))

OTJ

FiddleJammer - Posted - 07/01/2007:  13:08:43

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I do some tuning in this podcast...

http://web.mac.com/tlukacko/iWeb/Ja...B2AD931.html

Broadband and a sense of humor recommended.

Terri

tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com

Fiddler - Posted - 07/02/2007:  15:54:08

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quote:

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But he lived with his parents, never married and devoted his entire life to fiddling. Most of us - and most Missouri fiddler's - can't make this kind of sacrifice... (;-))

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I really like Stinnent's playing, just wish I could be half as good with 1/16 of the time commitment. Playing in flatted keys is unforgiving - have to use that little pinky.

fiddle music - "... it's for the uplifting of people. It's the highest, the most high, most high, most high...'' Marcus Martin

Ivar - Posted - 07/05/2007:  11:03:02

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Exploring different tunings is a fun part of OT (Old Time) fiddling. Good practice is to listen to a tune, try to hear the "key" and then try play using the tuning for that key. D = ADae (or GDae), G = GDgd, A = AEae (or GDae, or rarely AEac#). If you don't play guitar, learning it can really help because you will be more or less forced to learn to identify chord changes and that really helps identify key signatures. I find that I can determine a tune's chord structure and key quickly, and thus the tuning possibilities are reduced to one or two possibilities. I don't have the same luck with banjo tunings, at least not yet.

One thing to keep in mind is that OT is normally kept within a key for a while on account of the banjo tunings (which can be more complex), so once you get the flavor for the different tunings and how they "work" it becomes much, much easier to pick up new tunes.

Cheers

Ivar

"Long live impudence! It is my guardian angel in this world" - Albert Einstein

Renaissance_Woman - Posted - 07/05/2007:  12:33:01

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quote:

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Originally posted by Grum

What notes are the fiddle strings tuned to?

Is it an open tuning? (ie do the stings play a chord like G on a Banjo?)

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I didn't read through all the posts, so you may already have this information.

Go to: http://www.get-tuned.com/violin_tuner.php

You'll be able to tune your strings with this audio tuner specifically set up for the violin.

Hope that helps you.

Suzanne
Making music for the JOY of it!

M-D - Posted - 07/05/2007:  13:53:06

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That's cool, Suze! Gives the ear a good workout whilst trying to find the correct pitch. It also reminds me of 2001: A Space Odyssey

_________________________________________________________________

M-D

Coupedefleur - Posted - 07/07/2007:  09:47:27

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Different tunings for fiddle aren't new, either. Back in the 1600's, Baroque players did the same thing. Heinrich Biber was famous for using all sorts of tunings in his music, including aeae. He also wrote music switching the two middle strings of the violin to tune GgDd!

They wrote the music out in a quasi-tablature, so the player could pretend the instrument was tuned gdae and put their fingers where they would for "normal" tuning.

In the "classical" world it's called "Scordatura" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordatura

I think violin players got the idea from viola da gamba players, who played with as many crazy tunings as clawhammer banjo players do. They called that style "Lyra viol" or "leero-way".

Fiddler - Posted - 07/07/2007:  15:12:40

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Coupedefleur,
Baroque music is quite interesting!! I've recently become hooked on it having come to know some incredible musicians in the Dallas areas who specialize in this era. (They even choke up on the bow!) In fact, after a recent house concert and intently watching the violinist, I came to the conclusion that this music could even be "accessible" for me if I dedicated some time and study. The scordatura really blew me away! So, I got to wondering which came first - retuning the fiddle for composed pieces or the folk process of retuning?

fiddle music - "... it's for the uplifting of people. It's the highest, the most high, most high, most high...'' Marcus Martin

Coupedefleur - Posted - 07/08/2007:  08:57:10

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A lot of the Renaissance violin literature is dance fiddling, pure and simple.

One of the things I find interesting is that early music violinists and a lot of fiddle players "want" the same things, quite different from what a symphonic violinist wants. A modern bow, for instance, is designed to soak up energy at the beginning and end of a bowstroke to produce a constant legato sound over bow changes. The Ren/Baroque/Early Classical bows had a more triangular shape that helps produce a "kick" at the beginning of a note, and they're usually much shorter.

See if you can find a period instrument recording of the Biber Harmonia Artificiosa sonatas or the Rosary sonatas- I think you'll find some of them interesting. On the Renaissance side, look for recordings by the King's Noyse and David Douglass. He also plays with the Harp Consort on occasion.

mike jarboe - Posted - 07/08/2007:  12:31:54

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Rayna Gellert plays a couple things in FCFC on one of her CDs...which obviously is the same as playing in AEAE when it comes to the intervals, but has a really interesting and mellow sound. I tune down to it once in a while when AEAE starts ringing in my ears too much.

irfiddler - Posted - 07/09/2007:  00:59:41

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This question might be for the multi-instrumentalists here - Does anyone know how to relate fiddle tunings to clawhammer banjo tunings ?

In other words, if you know the banjo tuning, can you easily figure out the fiddle tuning- or vice versa?

FiddleJammer - Posted - 07/09/2007:  10:29:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by irfiddler

This question might be for the multi-instrumentalists here - Does anyone know how to relate fiddle tunings to clawhammer banjo tunings ?

In other words, if you know the banjo tuning, can you easily figure out the fiddle tuning- or vice versa?

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With the disclaimer that this is copied from a copy of a copy of someone else's tunelist, 'cause I don't play much banjo, here's a simple comparison...

C tunes
Fiddle: GDAE (standard)
Banjo: gCGCD

D tunes
Fiddle: ADAE
Banjo: gCGCD w/ capo 2 = aDADE; ie, double D

G tunes
Fiddle: GDAE (standard)
Banjo: gDGBD

A tunes
Fiddle: AEAE
Banjo: gDGBD w/ capo 2 = aEAC#E;







Terri

tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com

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Edited by - FiddleJammer on 07/09/2007 10:31:46

irfiddler - Posted - 07/10/2007:  02:10:04

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Thanks Terri!
An alternate G tuning I was sent by another kind Hangouter is this one:

banjo: gGDCG
fiddle: GDGD
For this one, you can quickly adjust the fine tuners on your E and A strings on the fiddle down to D and G respectively, and back up again when you need to retune.

Perhaps there are variations on the crosstuning theme - depending on the tune! I'm still hoping to find an easy conversion factor - but am starting to think it might involve some trial and error.

FiddleJammer - Posted - 07/10/2007:  09:07:51

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quote:

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Originally posted by irfiddler

Thanks Terri!
An alternate G tuning I was sent by another kind Hangouter is this one:

banjo: gGDCG
fiddle: GDGD

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Hey, thanks for that one. I've recently broke out a separate list of GDGD tunes on my tunelist, so it's helpful to have that banjo tuning along with it.

quote:

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Perhaps there are variations on the crosstuning theme - depending on the tune! I'm still hoping to find an easy conversion factor - but am starting to think it might involve some trial and error.

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Not sure what you mean by conversion factor?

My experience has been that the key changes when the group decides, after a respectable duration in a particular key. Someone might get an itch to play something in FCFC and convince the others why that would be fun or interesting.

For the ease of only having to change one or two strings at a time, my brain sees this sort of relationship:

GDAE
ADAE
AEAE
AEAC#

or

GDAE
GDGD

But, that progression doesn't always meet the banjo's needs. Some banjo players like to go from the key of G to A, or C to D for the ease of just cranking up their capos.

I'm just getting started on other tunings like DDAD and ADAD, so I'll stop for now. There's a big tunelist by key linked off of my blog, if that's of interest to anyone.



Terri

tunelist, musings, and podcasts at
http://fiddlejammer.blogspot.com

bsed - Posted - 07/13/2007:  09:51:53

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I had the good fortune to attend a Mark O'Connor fiddle camp in '95.
I forget for sure who said this, but it was stated that Benny Thomason used to play Midnight On The Water with the fiddle tuned EEBE.
Its pretty much the same as DDAD.

fiddlepogo - Posted - 07/26/2007:  14:51:27

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scoville

I just got a bunch of OT fiddle stuff and a number of the songs are in B-flat. I assume--I kind of hope, rather--that that calls for a different tuning. What's the deal?

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I was poking through some .abc format tunes,
and I got a hint at what those Bb tunes may be about.

It had a bunch of English tunes,
and it had the same tune (forget the name, now)
set in the key of D for fife,
and in Bb for "violin".
As we know from the tune "Quince Dillons High D tune"
which was originally a fife tune, fife is capable of playing
high notes in D a lot more comfortably than fiddlers can.
I admit this is pretty scanty evidence, but it may indicate that it was common to transpose fife tunes
down to Bb to make them work on fiddle without stretching
or shifting to another position.

Bb <is> a royal pain, but I may dust off my two Bb tunes
and learn some more, because I do enjoy going to bluegrass
jams, and it's handy to be able to play in Bb for the singers.
Ditto for F.

Michael

http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael's Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour"

"We have met the enemy, and he is us!" - Walt Kelly's Pogo

bsed - Posted - 07/26/2007:  18:20:25

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[quote]Originally posted by FiddleJammer

[quote]Originally posted by irfiddler

Hey, thanks for that one. I've recently broke out a separate list of GDGD tunes on my tunelist, so it's helpful to have that banjo tuning along with it.
[quote]

FIDDLEJAMMER,
Take a look at the tune Jenny Get Around (a John Salyer tune). I play it in both AEAE and GDGD tunings---the fingerings work out a little different in each.


Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night:
God said, "Let Newton be! and all was light."
-Alexander Pope

Monkey - Posted - 08/01/2007:  13:54:53

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The massively curved renaissance bows allow you to constantly play all four strings at once. But you give up a lot of control (and range of tones/effects you can produce) you would otherwise have with Tourte's design. How much truly 3/4 part polyphony can you really manage to execute? Somehow we got way off topic.

One other sneaky turning trick no one mentioned yet is to modify the standard tuning (all strings) just a half step up or down for your instrument only, while all the accompanying instruments are forced to play in a "darker" key. For example, although everone is playing in D Flat Major, you get to play with fingerings only possible in D major and take advantage of open strings and better aligned sympathetic vibrations, while everyone else has to play in D flat, which generally reduces their tonal range. This makes your fiddle stand out (heavily depending on what type of instruments you are accompanied by).

Modified tunings for sympathetic tones and utilizing open string drones can be wonderful. I personally don't find it to very practical to do this often. Certain pieces will demand it, but you've probably gone off the deep end if your swapping tunings for every piece.

If you are modifying tunings because you can only play with 3 fingers in first position, you just might be limiting yourself and causing more problems than you are solving - like having to carry a truckload of fiddles around to keep your audience from having to endure your tuning gymnastics between each piece. In the long run, it might actually be easier and more rewarding to invest some time in solving the problem instead of finding more and more quick fixes.

Also, don't forget to undo the altered tunings when you put your fiddle down for the night. Depending on the strings you use and how far up you've tuned them, you might be the recipient of some random structural changes due to excessive string tension the instrument wasn't designed to support.

mpkleven - Posted - 08/27/2007:  00:54:54

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Hey, I play in B-flat, and I'm married with six kids. I even played Lord of the Dance in B major one time because the vocalist preferred the key; don't recommend it, however.

I agree, stick to basic tuning (GDAE) and the easier keys (DGA) before venturing out too far.



i'm_just_here_for_the_free_coffee

bj - Posted - 05/30/2008:  19:03:04

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quote:

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I'm waiting for someone to invent a capo for a fiddle. That would solve everything. Bb... no problem. Let's see. Where do I put the capo?

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Actually, there is a way to achieve "fiddle Capo". You do it with a toothpick. My teacher told me about it. He plays Celtic, and when he's playing with a bagpiper they are NEVER exactly to pitch. And around March17th he may play with a handful of different pipers for one song each in one night and each one is off pitch in a different way. So he uses a toothpick under the strings as a fill in for a capo. Slides it up and down the fingerboard to achieve harmony with the piper. Otherwise he'd go nuts retuning for each one. He says it works fine. I haven't tried it yet.

Me on the Web --
http://doneinstyle.com

fiddlepogo - Posted - 05/31/2008:  11:02:30

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I have heard of using a slice of expired credit card
in a similar way, acting as a movable nut, and some kind
of clamping device on top.

There were old fashioned banjo capos that were nothing
but a cork faced metal bracket with hooks for a spring.
If the metal bracket were curved to match the fingerboard and not flat, it would work great for fiddle.
Oh yeah, the spring has to have some tubing over it to protect the back of the neck.

Michael

http://www.ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference
-Robert Frost