pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/31/2025:  10:45:10

Hmmm... Phrasing How do you like to phrase your tunes? Ending on a descending cadence, ending on an ascending cadence, a bit of both. Or do you just stick to the Rhythm for 2 or 4 bars and end on the cadence that presents you with ? Or have you never/ever really thought about it ?

martyjoe - Posted - 07/31/2025:  12:20:26

I think an awful lot about phrasing and matching it with timing. But I haven’t the foggiest about the technical aspects of it. I'll be competing in an All Ireland final at the Fleadh on Sunday week for the third time. Timing and phrasing and tempo are the critical objective aspects of the performance on the day. 

Edited by - martyjoe on 07/31/2025 12:30:05

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/31/2025:  12:37:50

Its only just recently i have thought about it. Up until then (now), i have just thought about rhythmic phrasing, like 2 bars of this and 4 bars of that etc. But i think it is more subtle than that.

I think it is more like telling a story while somebody else ( maybe only in my imagination), is playing a steady rhythm. Upward inflection implying a question, and downward inflection, making a statement etc. maybe i am over thinking it. But it sure makes a difference to how i interpret a tune.

Hey Good luck wth your Competition thing, well done!!!

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 07/31/2025 12:47:47

Hector - Posted - 07/31/2025:  13:12:49

I've been told that many fiddle tunes can be divided into "question" and "answer" sections in both A and B parts so at least the main phrases will usually have the same number of measures whatever the tune is. That seems to make sense to me but I guess someone is going to tell me I'm wrong!

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/31/2025:  13:38:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Hmmm... Phrasing How do you like to phrase your tunes? Ending on a descending cadence, ending on an ascending cadence, a bit of both. Or do you just stick to the Rhythm for 2 or 4 bars and end on the cadence that presents you with ? Or have you never/ever really thought about it ?

---

I generally end old time tunes at the end, without an added cadence. I think of cadence as 2 chords closing a piece. I think of phrasing as how parts of a tune are put together, where a line breathes with rests or changes in note timing, or where syncopated notes might be added.  I'm not sure everybody means the same thing by them. Shave and a haircut I get.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/31/2025:  14:19:19

I tend to phrase my fiddling in an effort to emulate what a singer would probably want to do while singing a particular tune. I think in terms of human breaths.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/31/2025:  14:23:38

"Cadence" literally means "Falling" so if i end a phrase by falling to the last note of the phrase it ends the phrase and implies a statement.



If i end the phrase by ascending to the last note of the phrase it would imply a question?



Much like the ascending inflection prevalent in the Australian accent at the end of a sentence for example.



The rhythm and chord changes etc, being separate and independent from the phrasing, creates a more lyrical feel to the music. As if one where to talk or tell a story over a steady rhythm.

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 07/31/2025 14:30:15

martyjoe - Posted - 07/31/2025:  14:56:27

I think the phrasing can revolve around bit around the bow strokes, in a similar way to how the phrasing on a flute can be influenced by breathing. Which is probably why pipers don’t tend to play the flute but often play the whistle instead. The dynamics of the fiddle huge compared with the likes of the banjo it certainly is one of most expressive instruments in my opinion. I still play a good bit of saxophone and that is very expressive but only one note a time. Phrasing is linked to expression I think and finding different ways of expressing the same passage without straying into a different field.

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/31/2025:  18:09:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

If i end the phrase by ascending to the last note of the phrase it would imply a question?



Much like the ascending inflection prevalent in the Australian accent at the end of a sentence for example.



The rhythm and chord changes etc, being separate and independent from the phrasing, creates a more lyrical feel to the music. As if one where to talk or tell a story over a steady rhythm.

---

Unlike words in a sentence musical notes rise or lower to the same group of notes above or below because of the octave. I see what you're trying to get at but I don't think that ending a phrase by a raised note or a lowered note makes the distinction you're saying. It matters more what the chord is. If you end in the key tonic it's kind of like a period at the end of a sentence. If you end on the 5 chord you're asking a big question. The 4 chord maybe a hesitation, the relative minor would be a sadness or doubt, etc.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/31/2025:  18:19:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

"Cadence" literally means "Falling" so if i end a phrase by falling to the last note of the phrase it ends the phrase and implies a statement.



If i end the phrase by ascending to the last note of the phrase it would imply a question?



Much like the ascending inflection prevalent in the Australian accent at the end of a sentence for example.



The rhythm and chord changes etc, being separate and independent from the phrasing, creates a more lyrical feel to the music. As if one where to talk or tell a story over a steady rhythm.

---

Not sure if trying to apply this to composing or to interpretation.

Cadence isn't used to only mean the literal origin "falling"; musically just refers to the end of a phrase; and described as creating a sense, type or degree of resolution, closure... full/partial/unresolved and expectation of more to come. It's not one aspect, algorithm/formula; but combination of many, can work in either direction, falling or ascending. Harmonic context, meter, are important. Chords and rhythm are not really independent as they play a role in that sense of lyrical structure and sense of resolution. As well as some performance articulation aspect, that can affect it.

edit: There are numerous examples of song phrases that descend but still feel like question; or end ascending, but feel resolved... concludes the tune phrase and song. 

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 07/31/2025 18:33:11

buckhenry - Posted - 07/31/2025:  18:56:29

To me the phrases and cadences are determined by how the tune is written, suppose the tune can be re-written. With dances tunes the phrases are either 2 or 4 bars of semi-quavers in 2/4 time. Such as Drowsing Maggie, each part is divided into two phrases; part A has two 2 bar phrases: A, A1 and repeated, same with part B. Where as The Merry Blacksmith has 4 bar phrases: with imperfect cadence in part A and perfect cadence in part A1, repeated.

The motion of the cadence refers to the base line, we fiddlers play the soprano or alto lines, so the melody could resolve in any direction and usually to the tonic of the chord.

Maybe I totally misunderstood the OP, or are you referring to the 'tag' which is an added line after the tune has finished such as mentioned: shave an a haircut, two bits.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/01/2025:  01:00:57

Found this vid which sort of explains what i am referring to in modern terms. youtube.com/watch?v=xdBjqCLmMXU

The rising or falling thing i am on about comes from earlier music which didn't really use chords, it used more horizontal or linear harmonies like counterpoint etc. Then it matters more whether you fall to end a phrase.

i am also thinking in terms of solo, lyrical interpretation of a tune rather than group playing.

i have been playing around with English country dance tunes, where the Form of the tune follows a dance (which is composed by the dance master) and odd phrasing and form seem to be the norm. i know i can do whatever i want when i play solo.....As in grammar, singing, inflection etc.

Maybe i am confusing the term "phrase" (which most folk think of as a set number of bars AABB etc), with the term "strain", which i interpret as a more lyrical or vocal term, which doesn't necessarily conform to the bars, but is contained within them.

 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/01/2025:  01:39:07

All great answers BTW. And thanks for thoughtful replies.

martyjoe - Posted - 08/01/2025:  02:10:22

There is a kind of convention in traditional music circles here that: when you play a slow air/lament it should be played as it is sung. That has always been a real problem for me because all these slow airs are sung in the Irish language. Me being Australian the words sound like gobbly gook so I have no understanding of the way the emotion flows so I try to avoid them as much as possible except for my own enjoyment.

buckhenry - Posted - 08/01/2025:  02:33:24

Hmmmmm,

,

crooked tunes, tunes with unbalanced phrases, free form soloing.



I like to improvise over a few chords progressions. My favorited is Flamenco V7b9 to bVI, back and forth, back and forth each time varying the phrase lengths.. "will I go back to A yet, no wait play this phrase a little longer". Then I'll dive onto the tonic and follow a strict ( edit,  'balanced' ) pattern.

Edited by - buckhenry on 08/01/2025 02:34:52

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/01/2025:  03:19:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by martyjoe

There is a kind of convention in traditional music circles here that: when you play a slow air/lament it should be played as it is sung. That has always been a real problem for me because all these slow airs are sung in the Irish language. Me being Australian the words sound like gobbly gook so I have no understanding of the way the emotion flows so I try to avoid them as much as possible except for my own enjoyment.

---

Yes i can't play Irish airs either for the same reason. That's why i am getting interested in the old English tunes , which some them have complicated phrasing and a particular feel to them. And with research i can sort of interpret the emotive side of things. As many have searchable titles, and we have the internet nowadays. The recent post about "Hurlothrumbo" led me down some interesting rabbit holes, As have some other tunes.

just had a thought about getting AI to interpret any Irish lyrics to get the emotive side of the Irish Airs maybe?... just a thought...

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/01/2025:  03:25:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

Hmmmmm,

,

crooked tunes, tunes with unbalanced phrases, free form soloing.



I like to improvise over a few chords progressions. My favorited is Flamenco V7b9 to bVI, back and forth, back and forth each time varying the phrase lengths.. "will I go back to A yet, no wait play this phrase a little longer". Then I'll dive onto the tonic and follow a strict ( edit,  'balanced' ) pattern.

---

"crooked tunes, tunes with unbalanced phrases",....exactly! And communicating where a Phrase ends, and another begins.

Edit: Without accompaniment.

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 08/01/2025 03:28:16

carlb - Posted - 08/01/2025:  04:46:31

I started singing folk songs about the time I started to talk. I play my fiddle tune phrases like they are lines in a song.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/01/2025:  06:28:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

I started singing folk songs about the time I started to talk. I play my fiddle tune phrases like they are lines in a song.

---

i do also. But some of these tunes have no words, or they have been lost over time, etc.? How do you phrase tunes like that? make your own words up i suppose?.. i think of a tune as a tune, (no words) and a song as a song.

tonyelder - Posted - 08/01/2025:  06:57:46

I like what you said earlier Pete.



I've always understood music to be - pretty much - a "language - spoken without words". Not in a pollyanna-ish way, but a recognition of music’s ability to communicate emotion, meaning, and even spiritual depth, but without nouns, verbs, etc...



So, I imagine a musical phrase asking a question ending with cadence ascending - as it would in speech (or singing).

And a music phrase as a statement will end with cadence descending - as it would in speech (or singing).

...and then there's mumbling...   I do that a lot.  



But I don't think I handle music with that kind of awareness in mind. But it is what I think of when a topic like this comes up ...

Edited by - tonyelder on 08/01/2025 07:03:08

carlb - Posted - 08/01/2025:  07:36:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

I started singing folk songs about the time I started to talk. I play my fiddle tune phrases like they are lines in a song.

---

i do also. But some of these tunes have no words, or they have been lost over time, etc.? How do you phrase tunes like that? make your own words up i suppose?.. i think of a tune as a tune, (no words) and a song as a song.

---

When I play the melody to songs, it's true that the words are running through my head. However, tunes without words still have phrases in my mind. My best example of this is "Cheat River" which I learned from notation (no phrasing indications) in Samuel Bayard's "Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife".

tunearch.org/wiki/Annotation:Cheat_River_(The)

I just kept playing the tune over and over, creating the phrases as I felt them. About five years later, I finally got the Berkey recording, from which the notation was made. I did a pretty good job in my interpretation of the notation. 

You just have to  keep at it.

farmerjones - Posted - 08/01/2025:  09:29:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

I started singing folk songs about the time I started to talk. I play my fiddle tune phrases like they are lines in a song.

---

i do also. But some of these tunes have no words, or they have been lost over time, etc.? How do you phrase tunes like that? make your own words up i suppose?.. i think of a tune as a tune, (no words) and a song as a song.

---

I may scat-sing a melody, but it's almost like a 2nd line in my head behind the rhythm section. Yep. If I don't create a rhythm section with my doo-dads, I still hear/imagine one. 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/01/2025:  11:22:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

I started singing folk songs about the time I started to talk. I play my fiddle tune phrases like they are lines in a song.

---

i do also. But some of these tunes have no words, or they have been lost over time, etc.? How do you phrase tunes like that? make your own words up i suppose?.. i think of a tune as a tune, (no words) and a song as a song.

---

When I play the melody to songs, it's true that the words are running through my head. However, tunes without words still have phrases in my mind. My best example of this is "Cheat River" which I learned from notation (no phrasing indications) in Samuel Bayard's "Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife".

tunearch.org/wiki/Annotation:Cheat_River_(The)

I just kept playing the tune over and over, creating the phrases as I felt them. About five years later, I finally got the Berkey recording, from which the notation was made. I did a pretty good job in my interpretation of the notation. 

You just have to  keep at it.

---

i am still keeping "at it" with "The Blackbird". and various other "un-square" tunes  The phrasing, or start and end of the "strains" really makes a difference in tunes like this.

UsuallyPickin - Posted - 08/02/2025:  05:24:26

Thanks people, this is the kind of in-depth opinion I enjoy reading. Of course, my smart aleck coffee drinking self wonders "what happened to shave and a haircut"..... ya'll keep up the good thought.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/02/2025:  11:17:57

Nothing happened to "shave and a haircut" or "Amen", they are still there if you want them.

My aim is to ride over the bar lines and make things sound more lyrical, still staying in rhythm.

If i use the up or down inflections to end a phrase/strain, then use any left over beats/notes as lead in notes or rests for the start of the next phrase/strain, rather than just hitting the 1 of the next bar, I seem to be getting near to that.

Plus it can give a breathing space, instead of trying to cram in all of the notes in time before hitting the start of the next phrase or strain.

Brian Wood - Posted - 08/02/2025:  12:25:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Nothing happened to "shave and a haircut" or "Amen", they are still there if you want them.

 

---

Amen, or plagal cadence is useful sometimes. Shave and a haircut was probably considered cornball the first time it was used (which was when, I wonder?). The only time I use it is to be ironic. I don't even have to finish with the two bits, people groan anyway..

...googled it:

The "shave and a haircut" tune, often followed by "two bits," originated from a song called "At a Darktown Cakewalk" composed by Charles Hale in 1899. It became a popular musical phrase, often used for comedic effect at the end of songs and even as a rhythmic motif in various genres. The phrase and its associated tune are also known for its use in door knocking and other forms of communication. 

Edited by - Brian Wood on 08/02/2025 12:26:48

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/02/2025:  13:08:47

Nothing corny about V-I cadence imo, especially if the II-V-I is involved, its hard to find a Jazz standard without the 2-5-1 in it. Most folky and early stuff uses the 4-1 Amen cadence. But that's not what i'm thinking about. They are accompaniment "chords".. I'm trying to find out how folk communicate the end of a Phrase, (and thus the beginning of another). With, or without accompaniment.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/02/2025:  13:28:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Nothing corny about V-I cadence imo, especially if the II-V-I is involved, its hard to find a Jazz standard without the 2-5-1 in it. Most folky and early stuff uses the 4-1 Amen cadence. But that's not what i'm thinking about. They are accompaniment "chords".. I'm trying to find out how folk communicate the end of a Phrase, (and thus the beginning of another). With, or without accompaniment.

---

........Or if the even think about it at all?

buckhenry - Posted - 08/02/2025:  16:38:09

Are you referring to an original composition you composed or want to compose. Do you want to compose a melody to a poem and use irregular phrasing. As in the video he finishes every irregular phrase with a long note. Do you want change the phrasing of well known tunes.



As I stated in my previous post: The phrases are determined by whats written in the music notation. I can't see how the phrasing of 'Danny boy' can changed and not destroy the melody; la la la la pause, la la la la la la la la pause etc.



I'm struggling to understand what you're on about....

Edited by - buckhenry on 08/02/2025 16:39:13

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/03/2025:  00:22:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

Are you referring to an original composition you composed or want to compose. Do you want to compose a melody to a poem and use irregular phrasing. As in the video he finishes every irregular phrase with a long note. Do you want change the phrasing of well known tunes.



As I stated in my previous post: The phrases are determined by whats written in the music notation. I can't see how the phrasing of 'Danny boy' can changed and not destroy the melody; la la la la pause, la la la la la la la la pause etc.



I'm struggling to understand what you're on about....

---

Suppose i could just break Stuart Duncans playing down into Phrases and listen whether they end ascending or descending..

martyjoe - Posted - 08/03/2025:  01:27:15

Shave and haircut

There you go! I didn’t know that thing has a name, and even has has lyrics. It definitely can be annoying sometimes.

Edited by - martyjoe on 08/03/2025 01:30:33

pmiller510 - Posted - 08/03/2025:  04:40:45

As to phrasing at the end I think it doesn't matter as long as it's clear. Some fiddlers do fancy turn arounds which can be either ascending or descending. Some simply end on the last note/chord of the tune. Jim Bowles ended tunes with a shuffle sort of thing on the chord which I always kind of liked. I think the main point to be aware of (which two very good fiddlers pointed out to me) were to make sure it's clear.

One of them made the point that you should pay as much attention to the end of a phrase as you do to the beginning and I think we all know how important it is to make those first bars of a tune absolutely sharp and clear.

The other made the point that ending a phrase clearly communicates to the people you are playing with that you are at the end of the phrase and it's very important when playing with others to do that.

Both of these aspects apply not only to when you are ending a tune, but each time you repeat the parts of the tune as you play it.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/03/2025:  07:38:30

Not just the parts A or B etc, But the sentences, phrases or strains within the parts.

martyjoe - Posted - 08/03/2025:  09:07:36

My old music teacher and conductor of our concert band that came 2nd in an Australian championship used to say. The most important thing is to end well, it important to start well what happens in the middle will look after itself. Then he’d say finish & start the concert well, finish & start the piece well, finish & start your solo well and keep breaking it down. After that he would tel us to always keep your best …… up your sleeve in case you’re asked for more. Great philosophy!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/03/2025:  11:48:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Not just the parts A or B etc, But the sentences, phrases or strains within the parts.

---

I think everyone understands that difference

Brian Wood - Posted - 08/03/2025:  12:51:20

I'm still a little unclear on the topic. You are talking melodic phrases, right? Unless you're jazzing things up a lot those phrases would end where the melody goes. Maybe are you wanting to change square tunes to crooked ones? Are you talking about composing something new or playing existing tunes?

Edited by - Brian Wood on 08/03/2025 12:52:36

buckhenry - Posted - 08/03/2025:  17:41:51

Suppose i could just break Stuart Duncans playing down into Phrases and listen whether they end ascending or descending..

I believe Stuart is improvising through the entire song.

The 'end of line fills'  tend to descend, and I noticed in one instance the jump from the lowest note at the end to a higher interval. There are some ascending strains, but I think variation is an essential element. There is much tendency to finish lines on the 5th note of each chord.

The solo breaks 'Kick off' with a ascending anacrusis beginning on the 3rd beat and continues with descending/ascending contour lines in 16th note rhythms interrupted with some punctuation using 1/4  notes. The essential element would be the contoured lines, and there is no deviation from the song progression. 

The 'outro/tag' appears on the 3rd beat of the last bar with a descending 16th note rhythm concluding on the  5th note of the chord. 

Am I getting close...?

farmerjones - Posted - 08/03/2025:  19:26:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Hmmm... Phrasing How do you like to phrase your tunes? Ending on a descending cadence, ending on an ascending cadence, a bit of both. Or do you just stick to the Rhythm for 2 or 4 bars and end on the cadence that presents you with ? Or have you never/ever really thought about it ?

---

Y'know, awhile back I thought I was quite clever. Phrasing like breathes etc. But listening back, I would put a note in the end that wasn't correct. I believe it was from getting the bowing  to come out comfortably. As one could imagine, probably a down bow. But as I said. It ain't always right. 

You may read my more recent posts, I'm hung up on timing, meter, and rhythm.  Swing, or syncopate, all you want but the rhythm and timing is sacred. All that stuff must fit within the frame. Some tunes start 1 or 2 beats either side of the bar, that's fine but adhere to it. Like I said, a swing fits too. Hartford said a swing is a good way to get a good regular beat easier for some folks.  I'm still learning thirty years on. Those dotted notes, can get interesting. Everyone seems so hung up on forbidding drums. One can a learn a lot from studying percussion/rhythm. OK, rant over. 

NCnotes - Posted - 08/03/2025:  20:19:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

I tend to phrase my fiddling in an effort to emulate what a singer would probably want to do while singing a particular tune. I think in terms of human breaths.

---

Yes, this is how I was taught. My teacher made me sing passages out of my music. She pencilled in little commas at the places where it's natural to stop for a breath. That;s how we made "phrases" in the music.

When I played pieces for her, she would often remind me, "Sing! Sing!"  (This was meant to keep me from regurgitating all the notes in a row, like a robot...which is probably what unenthusiastic 12yo kids in violin lessons tend to do...:-D

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/04/2025:  00:29:28

I recently listened to a program in which a composer wrote a piece for a violinist. The violinist went away and learned the piece perfectly as the composer had notated it, then went back and played it with the composer.

At the end of the piece the composer was undecided on the performance, and asked the violinist if he would come back in 10 days or so and play it how he wanted to play it.

On the next performance, and after the violinist had arranged the piece to suite himself. The composer applauded and said "Bravo!"

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/04/2025:  00:39:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by buckhenry

Suppose i could just break Stuart Duncans playing down into Phrases and listen whether they end ascending or descending..

I believe Stuart is improvising through the entire song.

The 'end of line fills'  tend to descend, and I noticed in one instance the jump from the lowest note at the end to a higher interval. There are some ascending strains, but I think variation is an essential element. There is much tendency to finish lines on the 5th note of each chord.

The solo breaks 'Kick off' with a ascending anacrusis beginning on the 3rd beat and continues with descending/ascending contour lines in 16th note rhythms interrupted with some punctuation using 1/4  notes. The essential element would be the contoured lines, and there is no deviation from the song progression. 

The 'outro/tag' appears on the 3rd beat of the last bar with a descending 16th note rhythm concluding on the  5th note of the chord. 

Am I getting close...?

 

 

 

---

Nice breakdown! 

i think the playing is so clean and structured, that he may be using pre constructed motifs? But who knows, a player of his caliber may even be able to construct them on the fly ?

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/04/2025:  00:45:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by farmerjones

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Hmmm... Phrasing How do you like to phrase your tunes? Ending on a descending cadence, ending on an ascending cadence, a bit of both. Or do you just stick to the Rhythm for 2 or 4 bars and end on the cadence that presents you with ? Or have you never/ever really thought about it ?

---

Y'know, awhile back I thought I was quite clever. Phrasing like breathes etc. But listening back, I would put a note in the end that wasn't correct. I believe it was from getting the bowing  to come out comfortably. As one could imagine, probably a down bow. But as I said. It ain't always right. 

You may read my more recent posts, I'm hung up on timing, meter, and rhythm.  Swing, or syncopate, all you want but the rhythm and timing is sacred. All that stuff must fit within the frame. Some tunes start 1 or 2 beats either side of the bar, that's fine but adhere to it. Like I said, a swing fits too. Hartford said a swing is a good way to get a good regular beat easier for some folks.  I'm still learning thirty years on. Those dotted notes, can get interesting. Everyone seems so hung up on forbidding drums. One can a learn a lot from studying percussion/rhythm. OK, rant over. 

---

i make rules for myself also. But they are there to be broken. As in the reply above, where the violinist had made a rule for himself to follow exactly what the composer had written.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 08/04/2025:  01:11:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Wood

I'm still a little unclear on the topic. You are talking melodic phrases, right? Unless you're jazzing things up a lot those phrases would end where the melody goes. Maybe are you wanting to change square tunes to crooked ones? Are you talking about composing something new or playing existing tunes?

---

Just having my own interpretation of a tune rather than somebody else's.

i recently found out that in English dance tunes, it is quite common for the strains of a tune to be altered to "fit the dance" and give it the right number of bars for the dance masters "composed" dance. i don't know what happened to "Theatrical" tunes altered to fit certain scenes, or tunes altered for "competitive dancing" ("Dancing for eels" etc). But where there is money involved i bet they would have had a few tricks up there sleeve.

So to me, nothing is sacred. Unless it is practiced with the folk you want to play the tune with. And with me playing solo........No i do try to make a tune fit with other folks versions, but i do like to put my own twist(s) in. And make it playable for me. Solo or otherwise.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 08/07/2025:  17:09:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by carlb

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

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Originally posted by carlb

I started singing folk songs about the time I started to talk. I play my fiddle tune phrases like they are lines in a song.

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i do also. But some of these tunes have no words, or they have been lost over time, etc.? How do you phrase tunes like that? make your own words up i suppose?.. i think of a tune as a tune, (no words) and a song as a song.

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When I play the melody to songs, it's true that the words are running through my head. However, tunes without words still have phrases in my mind.

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carlb, brings up good point. I also started with singing songs; so relate melodic phrasing from singing lyrics. Thinking about benefits of singing, why many advocate, and possibly how might help; In a few ways.

First; song lyrics, like poetry, generally has noticeable form, stanzas, each stanza has separate lines. Exposure to lot of different type songs, shows diversity of various common stanza forms and structures.  How each line is composed plays role in sense of separate lines; how each line flows and relates to the other lines; to make a complete stanza.

The other aspect noticeable in singing lyrics (like poetry), is in the natural articulation of: consonant, vowel length, tone, inflections, stressed/unstressed, accented, enunciation, separation and flow, timing; and variation. Rather than need arbitrary "take a breathe", more relates to how phrases roll off the tongue, play into sense meter, rhythm... and sense of phrase structure; and expression. Might involve that it's not just the literal definition of words, but relates to the old adages "it's not what you SAY, but HOW you say it" and "have something to say, and say it like you mean it" - which IMO naturally applies to singing the words.

But some of these tunes have no words, or they have been lost over time, etc.? How do you phrase tunes like that? make your own words up i suppose?.. i think of a tune as a tune, (no words) and a song as a song.

The music of songs uses, conforms intertwines to same concepts of above, from structural forms of stanzas, phrases; to flow and articulation. As such can thus apply these same concepts just to the music alone, without requiring words. The presence of words just can help initially make musical sense more naturally noticeable, concrete and intuitive; without need of complex academic analysis, abstract theory, counting, math, calculation, formulas and such. 

It might initially help to make up words, or maybe just nonsense words/syllables; scat or diddling; as just vocal aspect might help to help intuitively bridge the song/tune connection. This is often approach for learning tunes, just the singing/diddling voice as way to start paying attention to musical structure of stanza, phrases, and articulation each line; with larger goal is useful foundation (esp by ear) in learning, perception, interpreting and remembering tunes; to composing/improvising.; as well as to understanding musical expression.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 08/07/2025:  17:46:53

alaskafiddler --
Excellent post! It makes me hearken back to my days, back in the mists of time, when I was studying to become a Linguistics professor. To be sure, my life eventually took a different path, but I still can't help but be fascinated with basic language structure and why we human beings talk the way we do.

farmerjones - Posted - 08/07/2025:  19:06:10

'The Old Grey Mare Came Bounding thru the Wilderness' supposedly saying this, harkens up the phrasing.
Burt County Breakdown, for me is, 'Going to town to find her. Been looking everywhere.'
Supposedly 'Granny does Your Dog Bite' sounds like the tune, but I've never figured it out.

martyjoe - Posted - 08/07/2025:  20:09:15

 

But some of these tunes have no words, or they have been lost over time, etc.? How do you phrase tunes like that? make your own words up i suppose?.. i think of a tune as a tune, (no words) and a song as a song.

In Ireland they call that lilting. They even have lilting as one of the categories in the All Ireland  Fleadh Ceol music competitions.

 

 

 

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Old Scratch - Posted - 08/09/2025:  08:25:52

I'm not sure I understand the premise, if that's the right word, of this discussion, but I never let a little thing like that slow me down. (And that's how I've gotten where I am today). Anyway, there's a guy named Mark Wilson who was the force behind several series of fiddle recordings on the Rounder label, and he wrote of the older Cape Breton fiddlers that they seemed to think, musically, in 'phrases', as opposed to the (relatively) younger CB fiddlers who seem to think in 'lines', which I take to be an astute observation. As with much musical, it's awkward to try to explain, but, to my understanding of it anyway, there tends to be in the playing of the more recent generations of CB fiddlers more of a sense of forward motion, like you're always on your way to some end point that the 'line' is taking you to, while with the older players, the phrase you're on is where you want to be, till you start the next phrase. I observed the same sort of thing in the playing of many of the older Indigenous players of my acquaintance, to the point that some of them might repeat a phrase seemingly at random, with no worry about where they were supposed to be in several beats. You could make all kinds of connections, fanciful or not, with general attitudes toward life, ways of being in the world, etc., etc., if you were so inclined.

Anyway, it's just a thought.

ChickenMan - Posted - 08/09/2025:  09:27:36

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Originally posted by Old Scratch

 

 I observed the same sort of thing in the playing of many of the older Indigenous players of my acquaintance, to the point that some of them might repeat a phrase seemingly at random, with no worry about where they were supposed to be in several beats. You could make all kinds of connections, fanciful or not, with general attitudes toward life, ways of being in the world, etc., etc., if you were so inclined.



Anyway, it's just a thought.

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Makes me think of Metis tunes and how they are so often randomly crooked, and how each player had their own take on where it is crooked. Then some US old time player learns from a particular crooked Metis recording and suddenly "that's how it goes, it's crooked right there," rather than them understanding that the crookedness of an otherwise widely distributed square tune is an individual thing in the Metis and other northern native traditions.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 08/09/2025 09:28:13