tonyelder - Posted - 07/20/2025:  18:32:48

HA!  been here (FHO) this long and this caught me off guard.

I tried to ask a question by using a "reply" to my original post. I was intending to use the original and remove all of the the body except what I wanted to focus on. When I got through editing the original text and asked the question by highlighting that single point - I saved it thinking it would be a new comment at the bottom.

Well...  guess what - this happened instead. I started with the edit button instead of reply - not aware that this post could be edited at anytime. My bad. 

I'll try to re-create the list best I can remember.  ***********

When playing fiddle with another fiddler, and you discover that your plying a different version of a tune that what the other fidler is playing, what do you do?

1. Keep playing and don't worry about it.

2. Play louder, so you can hear yourself above the others (so can everyone else).

3. Play quieter.

4. Stop playing.

5. Work towards playing their version in the moment - note for note.

6. Attempt to play an abbreviated version of the melody to avoid disrupting others, not trying to play anything note for note..

7... Attempt to play a counter melody / second their version melodically.

And then I asked about how someone might go about learning to play a counter melody or seconding.  I suggested that singing harmonies would be a good skill to have that might help. But George was right - in that seconding on fiddle is really not the same as singing harmony. But the thought was that when you are singing harmonies you have to listen to the main melody in order to know where your part is. In that regard- I would consider it helpful.

I offered a link to Dan Gellert playing second fiddle to Brad Leftwich as an example of someone who is master at seconding. I can't find any online material that has Dan expaining how he approached developing that skill. He would definitely be worth listening to. 

And this edit was to include the question: Would #7 be considered "traditional"? ...encouraged or discouraged by OT purists?

Hope this helps "make things right again".

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/22/2025 07:49:27

NCnotes - Posted - 07/20/2025:  19:31:57

Hmmm, I actually encounter this often…



Typically if I am leading the set, I just do my thing. I don’t try to adapt to others. It’s just too hard, since I’m also thinking about saying Hup and the next tune coming up, etc. And it’s my set, so I feel that it’s ok that I should go ahead and play it “my way”.



If I am “playing along”, I play “under” them in volume, and I defer to their version…I try to omit any of my notes that clash with theirs. If I know that tune really well, I might be able to do double stops, harmony or drones, but usually I just stick to melody because experimenting with that other stuff can throw people off… so #6 mostly, and #7 rarely.



And if the settings really clash, or they are doing something utterly unique and beautiful…Then #4! My flute friend’s “Toss the Feathers” was like that…I played along with her one time (mine was typical standard version) but I realized/heard what she was doing and I had to stop and listen…



yep how does everybody else handle?

I will check out "seconding"...I think that is cool, and maybe more done in OT than Celtic!

PS I think #1 and #2 will not win you musical friends...since it will tend to detract from overall sound of group...

Edited by - NCnotes on 07/20/2025 19:35:11

ChickenMan - Posted - 07/20/2025:  19:56:13

Boy if I could play second it would be like Dan (there is a cassette full of tunes played by Brad and him) or Tricia Spencer.

Apple Blossoms

Goodbye my Little Darling

ChickenMan - Posted - 07/20/2025:  20:00:24

If #2 (sub section 2 )were so easy, like you I'd be very good at harmonizing fiddle tunes on the fly. But I'm not really. Playing for the dances with another fiddle who plays strictly melody, exactly the same over and over opened up my ability to work out harmonies without getting in the way of the melody, but that still requires the constant melody. Could probably record yourself playing the melody and then practice with that. At least you'd know what notes went where.

Edited by - ChickenMan on 07/20/2025 20:02:12

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/20/2025:  20:29:09

As a strictly amateur fiddler whose star turns have been few and far between, I always try to blend in and enrich what the alpha fiddlers and other band members are up to. It's probably due to the fact that, when I played electric guitar, my attempts to out-duel other lead guitarists always let to little more than earaches.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/21/2025:  00:54:08

I mostly do seconding. But what I think of "seconding" is more as underlying accompaniment. I use these to accompany lead singing as well.

Of course one is just like most any rhythm section accompaniment; it's mostly about the rhythmic foundation and/or chord (though might include some other aspects common to accompaniment).

Another is a bit more like playing CH banjo... which outlines and reinforces the basic melodic contour, but simpler more bare bones, leaving the most details and nuances to the person playing lead. Might play that an octave lower. Like CH banjo, also might also weave in a bit of above also helping define rhythmic or sense of the chord movement.

I generally think of counter melodies or harmonies as different thing.

As far as how natural... probably depends on background. If from more from rhythm section accompaniment realm, maybe being in bands and working out arrangements, learning to listen and understand what different part do; it probably seems more natural to think in those terms... as opposed to just from melodic lead/solo background.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 07/21/2025 01:08:55

carlb - Posted - 07/21/2025:  05:11:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

6. Adjust / abbreviate what you play to complement their version without copying them.

---

There are a few friends I play with and we are very tight, from the beginning, whether it's two fiddles or fiddle-banjo. While we are not playing note for note with each other, we are very much in sync. One of the friends said that we have the same "sense of the tune".

Also, I really enjoy playing with those that listen to others who are playing in the jam, especially with the person that started the tune. In that way we adjust to play in sync with each other.

farmerjones - Posted - 07/21/2025:  06:08:06

Y'know, in a jam or band, i live in 2nd or tag mode most of the time. The fiddle's voice fits in a unique place in the music/tune/song. A fiddle's voice cuts threw, even at low volume. If the lead fiddler goes low, I might go high, but always at lower volume. Lots of double stops that follow the chord progression. Chord "swells" or rocking shuffle on the double-stop. I've improved in falling into the chord progression by not playing fiddle but playing everything else. Bass, guitar, banjer, pianer. More chordal instruments. What I've found is many OT tunes thud along on one or two chords. While C&W, or old pop tunes, like All of Me, Pennies From Heaven, Ain't Misbehavin, have real five dollar chords. But take heart, you only have to catch two notes of those chords. If you can't find the flatted third, find the fifth. Explore rootless chords. I still go by ear first. If it turns out it's an inversion, fine. If you keep your throttle low, it might not matter. And I most always keep my throttle low. Having a loud fiddle can really teach you how to play softly. It takes touch/technique. That's why we teach newbies not to play quietly, because it's harder.

NCnotes - Posted - 07/21/2025:  07:05:49

I sometimes play with C, really good fiddler/violinist who also teaches…

he will start a tune and after he thinks I’ve got the melody covered, he’ll leave and start playing around…double stops, chording, harmony, such cool good stuff…
and at that point I give him an accusing look - as I start to tense up leading the melody by myself!

Playing with him is sometimes terrifying, LOL!

tonyelder - Posted - 07/21/2025:  07:17:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

I generally think of counter melodies or harmonies as different thing.

As far as how natural... probably depends on background. If from more from rhythm section accompaniment realm, maybe being in bands and working out arrangements, learning to listen and understand what different part do; it probably seems more natural to think in those terms... as opposed to just from melodic lead/solo background.

---

  ...yes

and yes...  I'm thinking something that is thought of more like continuous runs, lead-in fills, and backing fills that include chord voicings as much as possible. 

Doing that on the fly would not be a very easy thing to master. It almost demands that you "know" the melody line fairly well before you can pull that off.

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/21/2025 07:35:05

farmerjones - Posted - 07/21/2025:  14:01:08

Here's a quick and dirty St. Anne's Reel.
The levels are such that the proposed 2nd is much higher than it normally would be. (One can't rightly show buried objects without digging them up a bit) I don't know what it would serve, but I could also post the video in which this was made. The 1st is going through a looper with a bit of delay. Hence the bodran sound. The 2nd is straight to the mikes on a Samsung tablet. Of course I have to hear the 1st, to play with so it's really a mashup.

St. Anne's Reel

 

farmerjones - Posted - 07/21/2025:  14:36:02

Can you tell I don't have nothin' to do? Pitiful ain't it.

Lil Liza Jane

 

JonD - Posted - 07/21/2025:  17:53:26

Been out of the loop for awhile, and a bit confused as to what happened to the top half of this thread?
If this is a discussion of harmonizing, it's something you don't hear much in an Irish session but I sure enjoy trying it out where it's appropriate (emphasis on the 'trying' as Billy well knows! :-D )

NCnotes - Posted - 07/21/2025:  20:22:24

yep the question was what to do when versions/settings of a tune don’t match -

we lost the options above #7 …
…but I think #1 was “Keep playing your version” and #2 was “Play louder”… (which I voted against :-). But I did vote for #6 (playing in a way that supports/complements).

Even at Irish sessions, you might find some notes colliding with other people’s, so you gotta figure out how to handle. One common thing that comes up is C-sharp vs C-natural*…I just defer to whoever started the tune…if they are C-sharpers, I will do that too!

* some complicated thing based on pipes that someone tried to explain once, but I dunno? In some tunes, the Cs are up for grabs…

tonyelder - Posted - 07/22/2025:  07:50:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by JonD

Been out of the loop for awhile, and a bit confused as to what happened to the top half of this thread?

If this is a discussion of harmonizing, it's something you don't hear much in an Irish session but I sure enjoy trying it out where it's appropriate (emphasis on the 'trying' as Billy well knows! :-D )

---

...attempted to recreate the list . hope that fills in the blanks.

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/22/2025 07:50:48

tonyelder - Posted - 07/22/2025:  07:57:29

This is what I was attempting to do when I messed up the OP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

 

I offered a link to Dan Gellert playing second fiddle to Brad Leftwich as an example of someone who is master at seconding. I can't find any online material that has Dan expaining how he approached developing that skill. He would definitely be worth listening to. 

Would it be considered "traditional"? ...encouraged or discouraged by OT purists?

 

DougD - Posted - 07/22/2025:  08:43:59

I think that kind of seconding was common in old fashioned Cajun fiddling. Here's a short video of Dennis McGee and Sady Courville doing it:
youtu.be/MGMlAdJAc2Q?feature=shared
And the 1972 album where a lot of us first heard them:
youtu.be/MzEGpFY4yag?feature=shared

That's a nice clip of Brad and Dan. I don't know about traditional, but I'd say its not very common. I recorded an album of Brad playing with Andy Williams in the Plank Road String Band (also on YouTube), and they played mostly in unison (more or less).
BTW, Dan is a member here, and has posted recently. Maybe you could ask him if he'd like to share some tips.

DougD - Posted - 07/22/2025:  09:47:51

As far as "traditional," I was going to say there aren't too many recordings of this technique, until I remembered these two, from the very dawn of recorded traditional fiddling:
youtu.be/gBZvoS3sCfA?feature=shared
youtu.be/GlZyZaV3o5o?feature=shared
These were released with "Sallie Goodin" and "Ragtime Annie" on the other side, played solo by Eck Robertson.

tonyelder - Posted - 07/22/2025:  11:29:02

Thank you Doug. You are such a valuable part of FHO. Quick with insights and meaningful information. (..and a great talent) Yes, I think that any "traditional " aspect of seconding would probably only get a footnote because it just was rare, perhaps a novelty. Privately, it might be encouraged when the potential is recognized and it seems to "fit" with what the fiddlers are playing. Publicly speaking though - I think it would be one of those things where - when it is done well, it is received with great enthusiasm; and frowned on when it's not. (stating the obvious)

I would love to hear what Dan Gellert would have to say. I would love to know the best approach learning the skill - from someone who "knows".

Dan Gellert - Posted - 07/22/2025:  19:01:13

Hey. Thank you, Tony! I ought to check FHO more often.

I started playing second by sawing the chord changes on the bass strings, based on Cajun style, and a few other sources.. I'm remembering some recordings of John Summers accompanied by a fiddler whose name I forget. I think Frank George also played second to Summers on the recordings they did together.

Anyway, whatever I can do as far as seconding or harmony grows directly out of that. From 2-note partial chords I got to working in various rhythmic ways of arpeggiating around the notes in each chord, often winding up doing an outline of guitar bass-chord backup (or the bass side of an accordion). Using the same bass runs and/or passing riffs I'd use on a guitar or banjo added another bagful of harmonic possibilities.

Making a 2nd part for a particular tune, I'm listening for where the phrasing and the melody can handle my throwing in a big chord, or a beat or two of detailed harmony. I choose one, and figure out what I want to do with just that one riff, sometimes by slowing it way down and singing the lead and playing along. On a lot of tunes, one or two specific riffs or notes is enough, and the rest of the time I'm keeping time noodling on the chord notes, trying not to crowd the lead too much, especially if I'm just playing a straight duet with another fiddle (no other accompaniment).

Hope that makes some sense.

tonyelder - Posted - 07/22/2025:  21:01:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

Hey. Thank you, Tony! I ought to check FHO more often.



I started playing second by sawing the chord changes on the bass strings, based on Cajun style, and a few other sources.. I'm remembering some recordings of John Summers accompanied by a fiddler whose name I forget. I think Frank George also played second to Summers on the recordings they did together.



Anyway, whatever I can do as far as seconding or harmony grows directly out of that. From 2-note partial chords I got to working in various rhythmic ways of arpeggiating around the notes in each chord, often winding up doing an outline of guitar bass-chord backup (or the bass side of an accordion). Using the same bass runs and/or passing riffs I'd use on a guitar or banjo added another bagful of harmonic possibilities.



Making a 2nd part for a particular tune, I'm listening for where the phrasing and the melody can handle my throwing in a big chord, or a beat or two of detailed harmony. I choose one, and figure out what I want to do with just that one riff, sometimes by slowing it way down and singing the lead and playing along. On a lot of tunes, one or two specific riffs or notes is enough, and the rest of the time I'm keeping time noodling on the chord notes, trying not to crowd the lead too much, especially if I'm just playing a straight duet with another fiddle (no other accompaniment).



Hope that makes some sense.

---

I realize that playing second fiddle "on the fly" with tunes that might not be in my repertoire is unrealistic. It will always be more of a collaborative effort if I expect to do it well. 

I had planned to approach this by becoming  familiar enough with the melody to know where the harmonies would be and what fills and lead-ins I might play on guitar. But as much sense as that makes to me - arranging that as a practice routine is still pretty fuzzy.  I also thought about making my first attempts on mandolin, but that may only complicate things for me. 

One question- if you don't mind. It sounds like what you are doing is not really a "counter melody", in that could stand alone apart from the tune's main melody. Would it be better for me to think of it as a "complimentary backup accompaniment"?  That sounds more like improvisation and less composition. Less intimidating (lol).

What you shared is motivating and inspiring,  But I going to need more time thinking about what you've shared  - let it sink in some more. Starting with John Summers.

Thank you, Dan - very much. It's kind of you to take the time to offer some hints and pointing me in the right direction. 

tonyelder - Posted - 07/23/2025:  08:28:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

One question- if you don't mind. It sounds like what you are doing is not really a "counter melody", in that could stand alone apart from the tune's main melody. Would it be better for me to think of it as a "complimentary backup accompaniment"?  That sounds more like improvisation and less composition. Less intimidating (lol).

---

And after reading this again, I realize how it might have sounded. I didn't mean to imply that you (Dan) are not really playing a "counter melody", or worse yet - that you don't know how. (  )

I was asking about the general perception of what could be understood from the meaning of just the terms "counter melody" -  without hearing an example.  It might leave someone with the idea that it is a totally separate melody being played over the top of the main melody in a tune. It could be played separately and enjoyed as a tune in and of itself - possibly without any recognizable association with the main tune. And perhaps sometimes that is what it is...

yea, just silly thoughts. 

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/23/2025 08:32:03

NCnotes - Posted - 07/23/2025:  08:49:25

Phew, counter-melody is tough! I don't think many people can come up with those on the fly...maybe jazz or BG types who are used to improvising a lot?

I could eventually come up with one... if I played the main melody like 100 times and practiced/rehearsed the counter-melody. But not on the spot!

Dan's approach is really useful to hear! Thank you.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 07/23/2025:  09:07:26

I never think of playing "counter melody", but if it's working like I want it to, what happens winds up fitting that description, at least sometimes. It's way more improvisation than composition.

Working things out on a mandolin makes excellent sense. I was once at a fiddle camp where Paul Anastasio was teaching. Now, there is somebody who digs the violin's harmonic possibilities very deeply indeed! When he was not teaching or playing fiddle, he nearly always had a UKULELE in his hands... a soprano, tuned (with a special string set) like a mandolin. I never saw him perform on that uke; it was a practice aid and sort of scratch pad for working out arrangements. Sure seemed to work for him!

When a fiddler says "harmony", they're usually referring to something like an alto part closely following the melody in the soprano range, like a vocal duet. Backup guitar is just as much harmony, though-- the only difference is in the level of detail. Traditional old-time and bluegrass seldom play a chord for less than two beats, implying more complex harmonies with bass runs, or by simply making a change either behind or ahead of what would be most conventionally consonant with the lead. A swing guitarist will usually make a real clear change every beat. A duet-style/"twin fiddle" part is what happens when you're thinking accompaniment at the level of quarter-beats, and trying to stay fairly close to the pitch of the melody.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 07/23/2025:  11:51:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonyelder

was asking about the general perception of what could be understood from the meaning of just the terms "counter melody" -  without hearing an example.

---

How about what Earl's doing here on the banjo?   It's not what you'd usually call "melodic", but I think it would qualify as "contrapuntal", though I suspect he would have said he was just playing the rhythm of the phrasing,using the basic changes, adding an occasional passing chord or or harmonic riff for variety.

.youtube.com/watch?v=ofYXFLcrQp...RWocEAl1l

Edited by - Dan Gellert on 07/23/2025 11:52:20

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 07/23/2025:  12:25:13

When two violins are played together, there are different approaches that can be taken to their concerted use.

One is to have one play the melodic line while the other plays an accompaniment that fills out the voicing without taking the focus. In this way of playing, the second violin often plays chords or ornaments to embellish the melodic line.

Another is to have the two violins follow a more contrapuntal approach, where two distinct voices work with a melodic line and build it. If the piece is a song, the two parts may well trade off phrases from the original line as they move around it. In fiddling, it’s more common to see a second fiddle used for playing a line of parallel intervals, typically thirds if it’s Texas style, and fifths and octaves if it’s something else. While harmony is eschewed by many Old Time jams, octaves are considered acceptable because while pitch is different, the sound is monophonic.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 07/23/2025:  15:03:13

Dan posted mostly what I was going to post.

I was going to suggest add option #8 - Chordal/rhythm accompaniment.  (different than#7)

I also don't think of it as melodic in nature. It's main role, focus is providing an underlying accompaniment, somewhat like basic rhythm instrument (i.e. guitar, or uke) does; role providing a sense of chord/progression, and/or rhythmic texture or foundation. Typically incorporates both, but as far as options of what to do, might think of separate extremes. One side focus is simply highlighting chord(s), using more long held sustained; maybe even drone like (some tunes you could just drone a single note or dyad DS over whole tune). The other side using more short or percussive in nature focused on highlighting more rhythmic role (could just do chopping).

Also mentioned

I'm thinking something that is thought of more like continuous runs, lead-in fills, and backing fills

I think of those as different thing, and serves different role. That is a possible role in some music, but not sure how applicable for OP and most traditional fiddle tunes. Fills generally there is not the extra space to put fills in independently from melody. Fiddle tune more often take up that space, or role is already provided as lead melody fills that... so might be a bit distracting, especially for the person trying to lead the tune.  Continuous runs could also be very distracting.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 07/23/2025 15:06:05

Quincy - Posted - 07/24/2025:  00:36:55

If I was even able to :

8. Play the tune Liberty as loud and obnoxious as I could.

tonyelder - Posted - 07/24/2025:  11:06:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by DougD

I think that kind of seconding was common in old fashioned Cajun fiddling. Here's a short video of Dennis McGee and Sady Courville doing it:

youtu.be/MGMlAdJAc2Q?feature=shared

 

Are my eyes deceiving me?  It sure looks like he is playing with the bow upside down.  Doesn't sound like it - but it sure does look like it. HA. ...first time.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 07/24/2025:  12:33:57

Denis' bow was haired so loosely that he couldn't tighten it with the screw. He kept tension on the hair with the back of his thumb! Looked screwy as hell, but it sure worked for him.
I think baroque-era (and earlier) violinists used a similar technique, allowing them to adjust the hair tension while playing. Made it possible to switch back and forth between single-note passages and true triple stops.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 07/25/2025:  06:48:55

Watching that traditional cajun video... the first thing that stands out to me is the bowing... It reminds me of the pattern bowing in the modern old time scene they teach in the northeastern music schools as "old time". I think in bowing discussions here it has been said that cajun music influenced that northeastern style (or is it the French influence?)



I think in the central Appalachians fiddlers from PA down into the gut of WVa, fiddlers were/are a more solitary and individualist lot. There's not a set tradition or a lot of evidence for 'seconding'...  It is/was done though. I used to get into jams with fiddlers and they'd do various parts sometimes... Golden Slippers comes to mind.  

When I am in a jam, I focus on the whole sound of the room, responding to that more than focusing on what one fiddler does... 

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 07/25/2025 06:56:45

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/26/2025:  01:58:38

Why not just send each other mp3's of tunes and work on them (in a DAW) till they fit together? A friend of mine (pipe, banjo whistle etc player), sometimes just lilts a tune into his phone and sends me it. Then if and when we get together, at least we are both singing from the same hymn sheet, but with slightly different versions that mostly fit.

i sometimes go over to the banjo hangout and find a version of a tune i like and download it and work on it. Did it recently with Chinquapin Hunting, that was fun.. 

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 07/26/2025 02:03:01

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/26/2025:  12:24:05

Here's a typical situation, guy on the accordion noodling, guy with the mandolin, excellent sight reader and musician, trying to find the music, guy on the guitar also excellent musician following beautifully but struggling to hear, drum player trying to find the rhythm, everyone talking in the background, and the fiddler (me) trying to pull it all together by it's shoestrings. Some of the reasons i just play on my own nowadays. Or need to rehearse before taking it out into the wild.... 

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/26/2025:  12:38:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Here's a typical situation, guy on the accordion noodling, guy with the mandolin, excellent sight reader and musician, trying to find the music, guy on the guitar also excellent musician following beautifully but struggling to hear, drum player trying to find the rhythm, everyone talking in the background, and the fiddler (me) trying to pull it all together by it's shoestrings. Some of the reasons i just play on my own nowadays. Or need to rehearse before taking it out into the wild.... 

---

Wow! Your situation is even worse than mine these days!

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/26/2025:  12:49:42

i know, its just terrible...

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/26/2025:  13:09:13

When playing fiddle with another fiddler, and you discover that your playing a different version of a tune that what the other fiddler is playing, what do you do?





I don't worry about it too much. There is just one fiddler I play with regularly, and we learn tunes from the same source. But occasionally we'll find we've interpreted something differently, and sometimes we will intentionally choose different paths. Most of the time it's not a problem unless it's about chords (what we're telling other players to play). Sometimes we'll stop and work something out. Usually we'll agree that a variation is no problem. I sometimes make an effort to play harmony or counter melodies because my mind goes that way. He usually doesn't do that. I don't see a problem of playing a piece a little differently in less it's structural, chords or timing.

If I am new to a group, however, I will definitely defer to the version being played by doing whatever it takes and  playing quieter.

farmerjones - Posted - 07/26/2025:  13:32:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Here's a typical situation, guy on the accordion noodling, guy with the mandolin, excellent sight reader and musician, trying to find the music, guy on the guitar also excellent musician following beautifully but struggling to hear, drum player trying to find the rhythm, everyone talking in the background, and the fiddler (me) trying to pull it all together by it's shoestrings. Some of the reasons i just play on my own nowadays. Or need to rehearse before taking it out into the wild.... 

---

Wait a minute. I think that sounded pretty good! But I don't understand the finer points of that type of music.  It always amazes me. Don't itm, cape Breton, Scott's trad fiddlers, don't they get tired? It sort of exhausts me to listen. 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/26/2025:  13:43:45

Thanks Steve

 It exhausts me trying to play it... But when it comes together it's an amazing thing. It just takes a lot of effort to get there. When it happens even the wee twiddles are in time, and complement each other.

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 07/26/2025 13:49:03

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/26/2025:  14:06:16

I continue to be both amazed and confounded by the rigidity that is so much a part of playing OT. I can't help but wonder if the rigidity somehow derives from the violin's vitally important place in European classical music where, at least largely, following a leader and strict adherence to the written page is "the way it's done." To be sure, the music can sound wonderful if everybody in the ensemble does their best to adhere to specific directions, but it bugs this longtime rock-and-roller, nonetheless.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/26/2025:  14:15:35

quote:

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Originally posted by Lonesome Fiddler

I continue to be both amazed and confounded by the rigidity that is so much a part of playing OT. I can't help but wonder if the rigidity somehow derives from the violin's vitally important place in European classical music where, at least largely, following a leader and strict adherence to the written page is "the way it's done." To be sure, the music can sound wonderful if everybody in the ensemble does their best to adhere to specific directions, but it bugs this longtime rock-and-roller, nonetheless.

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i find O/T to be one of the "looser" genre's...... Maybe it's just your introduction to it that was strict or rigid?

tonyelder - Posted - 07/26/2025:  14:23:12

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Why not just send each other mp3's of tunes and work on them (in a DAW) till they fit together? A friend of mine (pipe, banjo whistle etc player), sometimes just lilts a tune into his phone and sends me it. Then if and when we get together, at least we are both singing from the same hymn sheet, but with slightly different versions that mostly fit.

i sometimes go over to the banjo hangout and find a version of a tune i like and download it and work on it. Did it recently with Chinquapin Hunting, that was fun.. 

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yes - that makes sense, but - that isn't really the focus of the OP. 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. It would be aimed more at bring an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune that compliments the main melody without overtaking  / overwhelming it.  What is the best way to attempt that?

...I think there have been a number of good suggestions.



I have downloaded a few mp3 from BHO for tunes that I wanted to hear just the banjo part - for learning and practicing. Certainly fiddle tunes from members here would work for practicing "second fiddle" accompaniment.  That would work.

Edited by - tonyelder on 07/26/2025 14:26:18

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/26/2025:  14:50:06

quote:

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Originally posted by tonyelder

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Why not just send each other mp3's of tunes and work on them (in a DAW) till they fit together? A friend of mine (pipe, banjo whistle etc player), sometimes just lilts a tune into his phone and sends me it. Then if and when we get together, at least we are both singing from the same hymn sheet, but with slightly different versions that mostly fit.

i sometimes go over to the banjo hangout and find a version of a tune i like and download it and work on it. Did it recently with Chinquapin Hunting, that was fun.. 

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yes - that makes sense, but - that isn't really the focus of the OP. 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. It would be aimed more at bring an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune that compliments the main melody without overtaking  / overwhelming it.  What is the best way to attempt that?

...I think there have been a number of good suggestions.



I have downloaded a few mp3 from BHO for tunes that I wanted to hear just the banjo part - for learning and practicing. Certainly fiddle tunes from members here would work for practicing "second fiddle" accompaniment.  That would work.

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"It would be aimed more at bring an accompaniment to the overall musical progression of the tune that compliments the main melody without overtaking  / overwhelming it.  What is the best way to attempt that?"

1: Know the tune and context intimately.

2: Find  how you can add to the tune using your personal knowledge of music theory.

3: Play below the  melody, unless your music theory knowledge allows yo to do otherwise.

4: Have the technical ability to execute your accompaniment, (probably this should be #1)

if you can do all of this....Edit: (on the fly), "you are a better man than i"....

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 07/26/2025 14:53:17

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/26/2025:  15:33:47

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. 

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For many tunes the general shape of the melody and the chord progression (even without chords most tunes can be heard in relation to chord intervals) is not hard to get. Coming up with a counter melody or harmony can be easier than learning the actual tune note for note. At least some people have the knack for it.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/26/2025:  16:06:18

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

 

I agree though. I mentioned earlier that a true literal  "counter melody" to the main fiddle would almost require a collaborative effort (composition). But I think it is possible to play second fiddle in a way that would be more improvisational (on the fly) with another fiddler playing an unfamiliar tune (or version of a tune)  where you aren't really trying to build a separate melody based on the tune's main melody. 

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For many tunes the general shape of the melody and the chord progression (even without chords most tunes can be heard in relation to chord intervals) is not hard to get. Coming up with a counter melody or harmony can be easier than learning the actual tune note for note. At least some people have the knack for it.

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wrench13 - Posted - 07/26/2025:  16:17:10

I use a couple of things for either twinning with other fiddles or just plain old back up. 1st, play the double stops for the chord structure with a complimentary bowing pattern. 2nd try to pick out the important notes that define the melody and strive for a 3rd above those notes, with complimentary runs up to and back down or onto the next highlighted note. I have knack for doing that, even on 1st time thru like in jam settings. 3rd one is to play a really high single note (root note or a 5th above works well here) within the chord structure, lightly and maybe use a triplet around that note. Lightly and sweetly. If you have a bag of tricks around each of these, that you can dip into at will, you'll have a leg up when twinning or doing back up.

Last week at a BG am there were 3 very decent fiddlers (I'm including me for the purposes of this discussion). We did a few common fiddle tunes together. 1st time round, we agreed to kind of dumb down melodies and all played together, then each took a time around with all their personal bells and whistles whilst the other 2 used one of the techniques above to back them up. Judging by audience reaction, it was quite successful! I could do that all night - the sound of triple fiddles puts me into an immediate alpha state!

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/26/2025:  16:20:06

So someone can take a quote from somebody else and attribute it to me?

How is that possible?

And why would somebody want to do that?

Jeez 

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 07/26/2025:  16:27:47

I've found I can invent pretty decent solo breaks on the fly by syncopating the tune a little bit, and introducing a few slides into the melody. I might have mentioned this before, but you can get mileage if you just soulfully repeat the tune's head riff, each time altering the rhythm a tad.

Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 07/26/2025 16:28:29

pete_fiddle - Posted - 07/26/2025:  16:58:58

If you know your guitar chords, Treat the modes as extended chords, and waffle around with them....



Where you going to end up after waffling around with C# locrian?....Erm.... D Ionian or D Major.



So C# locrian or A Mixolydian will lead you to a D Ionian, same as a C#m(b5) or A7 chord will lead you to D major (D Ionian)... Etc....

It's like getting on the train to D Majorsville

Edited by - pete_fiddle on 07/26/2025 17:12:44

Brian Wood - Posted - 07/26/2025:  18:35:59

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

So someone can take a quote from somebody else and attribute it to me?

How is that possible?

And why would somebody want to do that?

Jeez 

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So sorry! I used to a line in your post without scrolling back to its origin and true author.

Edited by - Brian Wood on 07/26/2025 18:36:31