wrench13 - Posted - 02/23/2025:  13:37:50

Do you pay a lot of attention to bow direction? Unless its a shuffle of some sort, an opening riff or last double stop, I generally don't take much notice of bow direction. Having played a long time, the bow kinda goes where I need it to, especially when improvising. I know classical people pay lots of attention to this, and some classical techniques demand starting with one or the other. For non-classical ( ie fiddlin'), do you consciously choose up or down bow?

Brian Wood - Posted - 02/23/2025:  15:18:55

quote:

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Originally posted by wrench13

Having played a long time, the bow kinda goes where I need it to

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Similar to you. Once in a while an awkward bowing rears up on a new tune, and I'll work out a bar or two to make it smooth. Upbowing isn't necessarily less conducive to accenting than downbowing for me.

farmerjones - Posted - 02/23/2025:  17:21:04

quote:

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Originally posted by wrench13

Do you pay a lot of attention to bow direction? 

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No. Maybe I should? It looks like I start a phrase with a downbow, but as you, I've done it for so long I don't pay attention. Bowing example (somewhat of a swing)

I had another guy call me out on bowing above the fingerboard. How the heck should I know? My forearms are a certain length, I thought that determined where the bow went? Oh brother, another thing I been wrong about for thirty years. . . . 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/23/2025:  19:20:12

Oh boy...

I do pay attention to bow direction, but not in any actual prescribed way. It all started with Nashville Shuffle becoming my happy place and morphing into other butterflies from there...lol. When I feel upsidedown with bowing, I usually look for the next spot to get me back the way I feel comfortable with.

NCnotes - Posted - 02/23/2025:  19:51:26

I am currently obsessed with bow direction!

- “ cross-bowing” (slurring across two strings, commonly done in Sligo-style Irish fiddling…often droning the lower string while doing it)
- slur 3 with accent on the middle note (also common in Irish fiddle)
- slurring into triplets
- common slur patterns in reels: I.e. slur 2, slur 3, separate bow 2

My teacher screenshared sheet music with slurs marked. He had me “demo” for the class and I said, “This feels WEIRD…but it sounds good!”

It’s easy to learn new tunes with the updated bowing style…but “redoing” the bowing for tunes I have played a lot is super hard. Like, “Mountain Road”. The minute I look away from his marked slurs, my old bowing comes stubbornly back into my arm, sigh.

martyjoe - Posted - 02/24/2025:  02:01:06

As I’m an Australian living here in Ireland I made sure to get some lessons from a trad fiddle teacher, a lady from a Gaelic speaking part of the country. The first thing she pulled me up on was my bowing. I had it all wrong! She insisted that I start a phrase with a down stroke and finish a phrase with an up stroke. She also insisted that I must change bow direction when crossing strings. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 02/24/2025:  05:54:17

I do pay attention to bow direction. Some pieces are less dependent on bow direction, but for many it makes a considerable difference. It’s often worthwhile to consider this from a more historical perspective.

In the early era of the violin and the birth of fiddle music, bows were typically made with much different designs. There was not a standard shape, but bows were generally shorter and were usually convex under tension. In the days of the clip-on frog, players often had to modify hair tension when playing by pressing on the hair just above the frog if there was no opportunity to rehair. Baroque bows tend to be lighter and stiffer and the difference between a down bow and up bow are more noticeable. It was considered important for the down bow to have more force to it, and this was a key for directing dancers, as fiddlers usually played for dances unaccompanied. In both the music of the court and that of the tavern what was known as the “iron-clad rule of the down bow” was in full effect. With a shorter and stiffer stick and in many cases a higher hand position on the stick, gravity simply gave the down bow more power. Playing with a down bow on the start of phrases was important so their nuances could be articulated clearly and so that dancers received the appropriate cues to change their steps.

Over time, bow technology changed. Tourte redesigned the bow to suit players and composers of new music that needed to be played with new articulation. The balance of the bow at a certain point became much more important, the stick became longer to allow for playing longer phrases in one bow, and the shape of the whole stick was changed to allow direction changes that were much more seamless.

Fiddle music of the modern era has a wide variety, and players often use disparate techniques. While it is still common to start phrases with a down bow, some players ignore this tradition and let the bow go where it will. If you develop your articulation enough and learn to accent enough on the up bow to approximate the force of a down bow, many times will be manageable with that approach. Much literature for the violin, though, is more dependent on direction at times. While certain elements of phrases may not need a set bowing, others, especially the more technical ones, may necessitate clear decisions in order for the music to be playable. Fiddle music relies on a much smaller array of technique, and the tunes are simple enough to allow for bowing variations if the player desires.

Because the bow is the tool that draws out the sound of the instrument, every aspect of its function is important to a skilled player. Contact point, bow speed, bow direction, and pressure are all key aspects of sound production.

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/24/2025:  07:06:52

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

I am currently obsessed with bow direction!

....

It’s easy to learn new tunes with the updated bowing style…but “redoing” the bowing for tunes I have played a lot is super hard. Like, “Mountain Road”. The minute I look away from his marked slurs, my old bowing comes stubbornly back into my arm, sigh.

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My experience exactly with new bowing ideas. But if you keep working on them, they will seep into the unconscious. One day you'll just be playing along and use the new bowing in a completely different tune. Then it's getting settled into your bowing arm muscles. 

A pattern that always seemed counter intuitive to me is a 1 2 1 2 1 1 bowing, where the twos are two note slurs. Pogo called it synchroshuffle, Brad Leftwich calls it Tommy's lick. When I consciously put that pattern over a string of 8th notes, it always seems forced. Yet it turns up in the middle and ends of phrases all the time. For what seemed like years I worked on that one with varying degrees of success before just giving up the working on it. Then one day, there it was. It was less exaggerated than how the more famous/successful "pattern fiddlers" play it, but there it was working in a new tune. It didn't hurt that I studied "Chinese Breakdown" that seems to be built around that particularly odd bowing.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 02/24/2025:  07:37:39

My music is better when I focus on musicality. I remember a specific show last year where I was playing rough and so I focused on the bow direction and good technique. It got worse. I said to myself mentally -'f- that' and just started moving with the music and it got much better.

farmerjones - Posted - 02/24/2025:  08:18:05

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

. . . .  Then one day, there it was. It was less exaggerated than how the more famous/successful "pattern fiddlers" play it, but there it was working in a new tune. It didn't hurt that I studied "Chinese Breakdown" that seems to be built around that particularly odd bowing.

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I would be interested in that C. Brkdn version you are talking about?

I think I found a real problem for me. . . It's like an 'inhale' upbow before I start a downbow phrase. It sounds bad and doesn't belong. The problem is I imagine it's not there, but it is.  Goes to show, you can fool yourself. Recording and listening back helps but one's brain still needs to be receptive.  Learn learn and learn some more.  Every day I learn. Now, to remember.  . . ..  

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/24/2025:  10:09:29

youtu.be/JjF7zDTz2iM?si=XjBC9cTutbGG_Cuf

That version by Pappy Taylor has the 1 2 1 2 portion a lot at the end of the phrases. Many versions do not. In fact I listened to three before finding this one, and all three were different and Canadian Patti Kusturok makes it sound almost Cajun.

This one by Benton Flippen has that rhythmic feel but mostly via the note duration, not the bow movement.

youtu.be/0k4JNYYmwY0?si=HizZoXxUa1qEZYEh

Charlie Walden

youtu.be/LnVeIubBSj4?si=JNaS_WGfGfQ_1wwK

NCnotes - Posted - 02/24/2025:  11:40:54

Super-clear bowing on view in this Patti Kasturok version...and they are synchronized!

Chinese breakdown

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/24/2025:  11:51:32

I remember Pogo talking about that synco shuffle quite a bit...I worked on it a lot...today, as back then, I'm still green with envy over it...lol...anybody who pulls it off without sounding contrived has my great admiration...lol...I still can't do it.

DougD - Posted - 02/24/2025:  13:41:30

I have no idea about the bowing,but this is where I first heard this tune:
youtu.be/tbibLMAxhww?feature=shared
BTW - Every time I see the title of this thread I think of Aretha Franklin (slightly paraphrased): "Your bow is like a seesaw, baby, going up, down, all around. just like a seesaw."

DougD - Posted - 02/24/2025:  13:45:20

Or maybe it was this one, but there's no fiddle: youtu.be/f0AncD61Pwg?feature=shared

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/24/2025:  15:56:33

Not long after I impulsively bought myself a fiddle (never having played one before), I happened upon an add in the local underground newspaper offering fiddle lessons. The guy giving the lessons was David Bragger. He was an absolute stickler concerning bow direction, and his directions & bowing style still stick with me.

His first, absolute rule -- Always start with a down.

JonD - Posted - 02/24/2025:  16:16:11

I'm hoping for the day when my bowing hand just knows what to do, but right now I'm right along with NCNotes in working those various jig and reel slurring strategies into muscle memory...

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/24/2025:  19:30:08

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

Or maybe it was this one, but there's no fiddle: youtu.be/f0AncD61Pwg?feature=shared

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This one definitely has the 1 2 1 2 ending phrases. It's not the full 1 2 1 2 1 1 but that bit is the essence of the synchro part.

Erockin - Posted - 02/25/2025:  04:02:39

My bow just started falling a part. I’ve gotten better at bowing up and down although if I don’t watch it, it starts riding up over the bridge when I get really into it. I’m obsessed with where I start on a down but after that, thinking about direction is gone gone gone

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/25/2025:  04:46:43

We've had these bowing discussions to no end at times...lol...and we've all heard each others stories, but I'll just repeat my own experience, as self-taught back porch lonesome wanna-be fiddler, OT wanna-be fiddler, specifically...but for me, I tried and worked on the prescribed bowing configurations as analyzed and parsed out by some very perceptive people who had sat with some of the more famous OT fiddlers...anyway, I figured there had to be something to all of that because of remembering back in my childhood, learning finger picking on my guitar. I had to struggle and sat at the feet of unknown guitar players who were my neighbors. I had to work on those little dances they were doing with their right hand, or seemed to be doing. So I figured, yeah, probably the same on fiddle. As time went on with guitar, I pretty much somewhere along the way just accidentally sort of abandoned all that I 'd struggled for, without knowing it, and my fingerpicking took its own direction and I no longer knew what I was doing, but I was pretty happy with how it turned out. I thought I was still doing what I had struggled to learn until my daughter and her high school friends wanted me to sit down with them and teach them fingerpicking...lol...turned out what I showed them in an isolated way, not in a song but just as a way to pick, wasn't what I played when I put it into a song as an example...they noticed that and called me out on it...I was kind of shocked that I had no idea what I was doing and I felt pretty helpless to show them because it just all got away from me somewhere along the way, apparently. So...I guess that's the goal of learning anything by pattern maybe, at least in folkish styles where the person playing has some degree of artistic liberties, I guess you could call it.

But back to my own amateur back porch experience on fiddle...I kept struggling with the different bowing patterns and licks I got from all the discussion...but gradually it seemed very contrived, prescribed...just didn't come out of me like music. Just my experience...I worked on them for maybe three years or so. Then I remembered hearing some old ancient guy say that Nashville Shuffle (he didn't call it that but showed it) was all a fiddler needed to know. Ok but that gets monotonous and boring, right? Yeah...but as with the guitar fingerpicking, if you work at it, I should say if I work at it...lol...just me...gradually I saw you can really vary just how you fit things into NS as you get more comfortable and loose with it. You can vary the rhythm and punctuation of that NS, and eventually, it will begin to morph...maybe even into those same bowing patterns that were parsed out of the OT fiddlers that people studied up close and personal. Or maybe something of your own entirely. The thing to remember is that, yeah like claw hammering, the licks and strokes do have to fit into the beat of the tune...I've said it before but I'll repeat it again...to me it's like kids playing jump rope...they rope has to keep going, but if you're a good jump roper, you can jump out of that rope and then jump back in without missing a beat. So if you get loose, comfortable, free and easy with NS, you can jump out and then back in at ease and on the fly, without pre-planning your every move with that bow. And eventually, you feel that you are N. Shuffling, but you might not even do it one lick...because you just get how to hold that rhythm and keep that thread running true, as you skip along in your own way. I mean...that's just what I feel like might have happened with me and fiddling. I don't know for sure, because I don't know any other real people in person...just cyberspace...so I can't sit and jam and compare with anybody else's take on what's happening. But it seems to me, NS took hold of me...laid out the rhythmic structure and let me jump in and out and just do what I felt, once I got good and comfortable...once I had played NS so much it just revealed its magic to me...lol...which of course means absolutely nothing. Except that somehow I got in touch with my bowing as far as I can tell, being the only one in my tangible atmosphere to observe myself...lol. Anyway, gotta say I have had fun with that approach. These days I have no time to play at all...but I still hope to get back to it somehow, some way. That's my take. Take it or leave it...lol...I ain't got any credentials to support my opinions.

NCnotes - Posted - 02/25/2025:  07:11:17

The jump rope analogy is awesome, Peggy!!

Yes it feels just like that…in the beginning, just manage to jump at the right time…

.. and as you get better, adding stuff in or changing up the jump beat a smidgin for effect, and even pausing and artistically missing a skip of the rope…as you get comfortable…

doryman - Posted - 02/26/2025:  13:40:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by groundhogpeggy

We've had these bowing discussions to no end at times...lol...and we've all heard each others stories, but I'll just repeat my own experience, as self-taught back porch lonesome wanna-be fiddler, OT wanna-be fiddler, specifically...but for me, I tried and worked on the prescribed bowing configurations as analyzed and parsed out by some very perceptive people who had sat with some of the more famous OT fiddlers...anyway, I figured there had to be something to all of that because of remembering back in my childhood, learning finger picking on my guitar. I had to struggle and sat at the feet of unknown guitar players who were my neighbors. I had to work on those little dances they were doing with their right hand, or seemed to be doing. So I figured, yeah, probably the same on fiddle. As time went on with guitar, I pretty much somewhere along the way just accidentally sort of abandoned all that I 'd struggled for, without knowing it, and my fingerpicking took its own direction and I no longer knew what I was doing, but I was pretty happy with how it turned out. I thought I was still doing what I had struggled to learn until my daughter and her high school friends wanted me to sit down with them and teach them fingerpicking...lol...turned out what I showed them in an isolated way, not in a song but just as a way to pick, wasn't what I played when I put it into a song as an example...they noticed that and called me out on it...I was kind of shocked that I had no idea what I was doing and I felt pretty helpless to show them because it just all got away from me somewhere along the way, apparently. So...I guess that's the goal of learning anything by pattern maybe, at least in folkish styles where the person playing has some degree of artistic liberties, I guess you could call it.



But back to my own amateur back porch experience on fiddle...I kept struggling with the different bowing patterns and licks I got from all the discussion...but gradually it seemed very contrived, prescribed...just didn't come out of me like music. Just my experience...I worked on them for maybe three years or so. Then I remembered hearing some old ancient guy say that Nashville Shuffle (he didn't call it that but showed it) was all a fiddler needed to know. Ok but that gets monotonous and boring, right? Yeah...but as with the guitar fingerpicking, if you work at it, I should say if I work at it...lol...just me...gradually I saw you can really vary just how you fit things into NS as you get more comfortable and loose with it. You can vary the rhythm and punctuation of that NS, and eventually, it will begin to morph...maybe even into those same bowing patterns that were parsed out of the OT fiddlers that people studied up close and personal. Or maybe something of your own entirely. The thing to remember is that, yeah like claw hammering, the licks and strokes do have to fit into the beat of the tune...I've said it before but I'll repeat it again...to me it's like kids playing jump rope...they rope has to keep going, but if you're a good jump roper, you can jump out of that rope and then jump back in without missing a beat. So if you get loose, comfortable, free and easy with NS, you can jump out and then back in at ease and on the fly, without pre-planning your every move with that bow. And eventually, you feel that you are N. Shuffling, but you might not even do it one lick...because you just get how to hold that rhythm and keep that thread running true, as you skip along in your own way. I mean...that's just what I feel like might have happened with me and fiddling. I don't know for sure, because I don't know any other real people in person...just cyberspace...so I can't sit and jam and compare with anybody else's take on what's happening. But it seems to me, NS took hold of me...laid out the rhythmic structure and let me jump in and out and just do what I felt, once I got good and comfortable...once I had played NS so much it just revealed its magic to me...lol...which of course means absolutely nothing. Except that somehow I got in touch with my bowing as far as I can tell, being the only one in my tangible atmosphere to observe myself...lol. Anyway, gotta say I have had fun with that approach. These days I have no time to play at all...but I still hope to get back to it somehow, some way. That's my take. Take it or leave it...lol...I ain't got any credentials to support my opinions.

---

The was that I play nashville shuffle is monotonous.  The way YOU play nashville shuffle is groovy.  I've read and watched your discourses on the matter and I am seeking to emulate you. 

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 02/26/2025:  16:57:10

OMG, that's scary! Lol. Seriously, If I can inspire a fellow musician as much as others inspire me, then all is well in this world. Glad and humbled to have helped, John.

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/27/2025:  07:47:02

quote:

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Originally posted by carlb

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

 

That version by Pappy Taylor.... in C

This one by Benton Flippen .......... in D

Charlie Walden........ in D.

 

My old time buddies (over 50 years) prefer to play Chinese Breakdown in C, where it has a different flavor than D.

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I play it in C too, never have played it in D. Here's where I got it, the inimitable Ed Haley. 

Chinese BD

NCnotes - Posted - 02/27/2025:  08:38:37

So on the bowing - I’m doing that weekly Irish fiddling workshop…and one of the things was that I was trying to get the Sligo style of cross-bowing (which I love) into Mountain Road. In class I said, “I struggle with Mountain Road…Whenever I look away from the sheet music, I go back to my old bowing!”

He then asked me to play it.
After I played it (losing the darn crossbow slurring again), he said, “Sounds great! Don’t change a thing.”

???

OK, so I am still trying to wrap my head around that. Bowing has idiomatic patterns, structure, based on the fiddling style…but doing whatever, is also okay? LOL. So, I guess we are ALL right!

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 02/27/2025:  10:19:28

I think some tunes are more dependent on bowing patterns than others.

Someone once told me that the secret to sounding like an Irish fiddler was to slur into the beginnings of measures periodically.

The more melodic tunes often allow for a bit more latitude in bowings, whereas the more rhythmic tunes change shape much more with bowing choices.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/27/2025:  10:42:09

I remember years ago when I was trying to 'nail', the Nashville shuffle Pattern, I put on paper the bowing and the notes of MANY tunes.. I did so not because I wanted to learn to play the tunes with the Nashville shuffle but rather because I wanted to challenge myself to be able to play that 2-1-1 pattern whenever I wanted ...and now I can....
Then, a few years ago an Irish musician pointed out the "Play three, Slur three, play two" pattern. It sounded foreign so I did with it the same as I did with the Nashville shuffle.. I put on paper the bowing for several tunes and Made myself use that bowing even though I wouldn't normally.. Result: I find myself using the 'play three- slur three' in countless tunes..effortlessly ...
Bowing really is mostly hand/brain coordination..

NCnotes - Posted - 02/27/2025:  10:56:58

Thanks Lee :-)

Yep I probably only have a few more years or decades to go on the cross-bowing, hahaha...

Edited by - NCnotes on 02/27/2025 10:57:21

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/27/2025:  14:49:08

3 - 3 - 1 - 1 (Lee's Irishman's suggestion) fits right into how bluegrass banjo players often break up their measures using the various 3 finger options, to get the 8 notes of the measure. If you play that luck along with someone doing that Scruggs style of banjering, it feels weirdly natural. But it gets boring to do it all the time, particularly in a BG setting where it's good to vary your approach to keep the listener wondering what is coming next.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/28/2025:  15:58:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChickenMan

3 - 3 - 1 - 1 (Lee's Irishman's suggestion) fits right into how bluegrass banjo players often break up their measures using the various 3 finger options, to get the 8 notes of the measure. If you play that luck along with someone doing that Scruggs style of banjering, it feels weirdly natural. But it gets boring to do it all the time, particularly in a BG setting where it's good to vary your approach to keep the listener wondering what is coming next.

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Wouldn't Lee's example "Play three, Slur three, play two"  be 1-1-1-3-1-1?

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/28/2025:  16:10:56

quote:

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Originally posted by wrench13

... For non-classical ( ie fiddlin'), do you consciously choose up or down bow?

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I would think most folks choose down direction for bow at any given point in a phrase, is only about half the time.

When I'm playing, it's more by intuition. That said, it's not really some idea of random, anywhichway, letting the bow go where it will. I am generally aware of what my bow hand is doing, how it feels and flows in the hand, cause and effect, and generally can control of bow to that (gravity isn't an issue). But not necessarily consciously thinking about it; at least not in terms of direction of each note; nor sense of doing math, thinking about prescriptive numeric bowing patterns/algorithm; nor written instructions and rules. I don't know if I really could do think about much of that when playing.

For me, starts with sound; having mental image of sound/feel of the rhythm and phrasing in context of tune. Incorporates sound of slurs, and various different accents, smoothness, string crossing, ornament, dynamics, space and other nuances; as part of deciding how I might choose to play and make it sound. Does involve experience; working out option, experimenting, woodshedding; and listening evaluating if achieves the goal, my desired sound, feel, flow.

So far that's worked out fine for me. 

JonD - Posted - 02/28/2025:  16:20:12

@NC
I love your story ("Sounds Great!! ---??) ! It does really come down to whatever works to make the tune come alive.

@alaska
I just call it 3-3-2. Seems a good shorthand for play 3 slur 3 play 2. Of course the first 3 may get slurred too if there's 1/4 - 1/8 note pair. Main thing is you always slur across the middle and you get your downbow back on the next downbeat (well not always cuz last note may also get slurred into the next measure....)

TuneWeaver - Posted - 02/28/2025:  16:37:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

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Originally posted by ChickenMan

3 - 3 - 1 - 1 (Lee's Irishman's suggestion) fits right into how bluegrass banjo players often break up their measures using the various 3 finger options, to get the 8 notes of the measure. If you play that luck along with someone doing that Scruggs style of banjering, it feels weirdly natural. But it gets boring to do it all the time, particularly in a BG setting where it's good to vary your approach to keep the listener wondering what is coming next.

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Wouldn't Lee's example "Play three, Slur three, play two"  be 1-1-1-3-1-1?

 

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Yes... That...Try it some time.  It is addictive..