alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/08/2024:  18:34:07

I had posted in sound off, fiddlehangout.com/topic/59044 ... "besides all this AI, ChatGPT, Copilot... I have hearing more about all this AI music stuff, and esp this Udio beta version, just released a few weeks ago, (as well as the Suno app)." A few content providers like Adam Neely, did some recent takes and perspectives. Curious as to where we are with AI music, and where is this going?

Not so much direct as fiddlers/folk musician context. But larger sense of music world as musicians, other contexts involving end product; affects the music industry, recording industry... that fiddlers (even trad) are part of. Economic values, but as well possible indirectly affects overall idea and value of music in society, might be bit of paradigm shift. (might benefit some fiddling). So what uses and impacts, and how quickly? 

FWIW, it's already here and being used for some aspects. The reason is it is way less expensive to create (labor and copyright/royalties). As Adam and others point out... overall those consumers don't care about how the sausage is made (human/robot), just if end product is "good enough" for use.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/08/2024:  19:49:16

I have mixed feelings about the use of AI to produce music. On the one hand, it’s always a terrifying thought that aspects of humanity could possibly be replaced by machinery. And it’s awful for composers if they are unable to maintain their careers.

On the other hand, AI can only work based on information fed into it, so its application to music is similarly a sampling of music that came before. Humans have the ability to come up with entirely new ideas, and if they’re creative enough, it should be possible to find ways to stay ahead. Competition is a great motivator, and perhaps it would be good to purge some awful music.

I think what appeals to people about AI-generated music right now is its ability to quickly provide something that sounds similar to something else, not something completely unique.

There are a number of YouTube channels of music made with AI programs in parody form. For example, you can listen to an AI Hank Williams singing a NWA rap song. It’s amusing because you instantly recognize Hank Williams’ voice, because Williams’ voice is singing a rap song, and because the person who made the video saw the humor in combining those two things. The AI program was just the tool.

In a way, using AI isn’t all that much different from using a synthesizer to cheaply replace a violin for a piece of music. The synthesized violin sound is violin-like enough to get the idea, but it’s definitely no match for the real thing. Many composers use synthesized instruments simply to get an idea of scoring or to play a composition back during the writing process without needing musicians on call.

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 05/08/2024:  22:36:03

As long as the creative instinct remains within humankind, and workshops continue to repair and manufacture traditional musical instruments, the musically motivated will continue to do what they love to do -- purchase musical instruments and make music. It's a pastime that's too central to our species to ignore.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/09/2024:  03:21:09

Not really what AI music buzz is about. It's not really concern as if to replace the human desire to create music; as pastime. Nor about the experience of the player feels in of playing an instrument, and the sound it produces to them.



More about effect on the music industry (and models) as whole... the economic realities of those involved with content production of an end product for various consumer markets and various end use.  Many will have to rethink how to make a living in music; as many of the older models of conventional revenue stream opportunities that could support them in past, are greatly diminished; not enough profit margin, budget; or simply reduced value; to economically compete against AI. Some of that is is technical, used to require human with high skills. Creatively, not simply about AI competing against human on just creative... but the economic comparison to compensate the creativity; has to be demand willing to pay more for that.

That said, possible outcome it may return to some fundamental aspects about idea and goals of playing music for many... as Adam Neely sort of mentions; and in reference to Christopher Small's book "Musicking"... valuing music as human endeavor, a process not an object (or product to sell)... encouraging participation not as a high skilled job/perfect execution; but for just personal joy and creative outlet... to experiencing the process of music, live in the moment... more intimate interaction to share with others. Kind of what a lot of fiddlers already discovered and value... it's more about process of playing music.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/09/2024 03:25:26

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/09/2024:  04:59:45

There has been quite a lot of discussion about the idea of AI “killing” music by putting composers and players out of work and destroying creativity.

I think there’s a fear among many serious music lovers that the general populus has become less invested in music overall, and that the music that can be composed by an algorithm will be good enough to please an audience that isn’t listening that closely anyway or doesn’t hear any difference. It makes sense to connect playing instruments to generating music (after all, this is a fiddle-related section of the forum). It’s been a while since synthesizers came onto the scene. They were regarded by many musicians as the death of musicality at the time. The use of synthesizers in music became widespread for a while, but ultimately lost much of its popularity. If you hear prominent synthesizers in a piece now, the immediate thought is that it’s an 80s piece or it’s imitating that style.

The monetary aspect is of course important, but price competition is a part of any business. AI can be used for much less than commissioning a composer, and that poses a threat to a part of the market. How much of an impact really comes down to how much the people who pay for the music care, which brings us back to the question of whether AI can do something that’s creative enough to impress the listeners.

Every industry has dealt with changes in technology. Violin making on the lower end changed a lot with the invention of the Thau milling machine, which made it possible to produce violin plates faster and reduced the hand work needed. The duplicating machine was another change. More recently, CNC has become common. The cottage industry of the 19th century is dead, but traditional violin making is still thriving.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/09/2024:  06:43:48

An apt video that has created a lot of buzz:

youtu.be/ntjkwIXWtrc?si=fM4Kw181Daw-cvCW

ShawnCraver - Posted - 05/09/2024:  07:34:08

i think i'm clueless about ai music. i have seen a lot of talk "around" it,



but have somehow avoided seeing/hearing what it is.



like that sonny and cher video... isn't that them singing? and the graphic is the ai?

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 05/09/2024 07:34:30

Erockin - Posted - 05/09/2024:  07:47:47

Ever been in the self checkout line and find there is no one around to assist?
Or, having to call even the smallest of businesses only to find that it takes longer to get to a human than it takes to get your answer?
ATM machines were a very early form of AI as well...

We are all suspect to the overall AI takeover that's inevitable...and like originally stated, it's coming faster than we thought!

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/09/2024:  09:27:29

Machines and AI are not quite the same thing. Machines perform a task based on simple instructions and with a fully determined outcome. If you pull a lever, it does a certain task, or if you type a command a program runs. What’s different about AI is that it can be given a more complicated task like “write a birthday song” and it can then glean from its available source material and process that to in turn make a product that’s different.



What scares people is the idea that as algorithms gain more data, they become stronger and more capable. A wealth of great music is in the public domain—arguably much more than is privately owned. Therefore the algorithm is built on great and comprehensive foundations. There is little pressure on an AI program to produce something truly unique because imitation of something great is sufficient for many purposes. A living composer, however, is pressured to be constantly presenting completely unique ideas. At some point it becomes difficult to keep producing new results, and it’s futile to do so if the unique results aren’t appealing.



To be honest, though, the struggle to come up with music that’s both new AND appealing predates AI, and audiences have been losing interest in new compositions unless they’re part of movie or video game scores.





Here’s an article that discusses some potential impacts of AI:

insight.kellogg.northwestern.e...reativity

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 05/09/2024 09:37:42

wrench13 - Posted - 05/09/2024:  11:40:37

Where I see a real impact on music industry with AI is in cases where you just want to indicate that music is being played, but not necessarily played by people. Think background music in commercials or in films/videos. Campfire scene in a western and you want to show people dancing round the fire. DO you care if St Annes Reel is being played or just something fiddley with rhythm. Cost to hire musicians, studio and mixing folks vs an AI generated sound file - no brainer.

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/09/2024:  12:14:06

A distinction can be made between economic and esthetic considerations about AI Music. Most of us, I'd guess, are not involved in supporting ourselves in a music career. That is, AI isn't threatening our copyrights or touring material. Aesthetically we still find it unsettling to think of a flood of AI music overtaking our radio stations, movie scores, and elevator rides. But those things are flooded with artificiality already. It's hard for me to fathom where all the audio dreck I hear comes from. But most of it comes from large corporations that present homogenized instrumental tracks backing up "artists" with their "hits". The music economy is mostly a corporate economy, it's not a not a worker economy anymore. It might as well be AI already.

Most of us fiddle players only have to suffer the idea of nonhuman music. But we're unlikely to be affected much. If an AI fiddle tune or bluegrass tune becomes popular for some reason maybe it'll be because it's actually a better tune than "Wagon Wheel" or something. I can live with that. It's the humanness of us playing individually and together that we care about. For most of us here, aside from disgust, we won't suffer much.

My pleasure this morning was to walk down to the creek on my property, sit in the sunshine and blend my fiddle with the rushing water and a few birds. And I'm thinking about playing with a few friends around the table this evening. Beat that AI!

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/09/2024:  12:48:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

i think i'm clueless about ai music. i have seen a lot of talk "around" it,



but have somehow avoided seeing/hearing what it is.



like that sonny and cher video... isn't that them singing? and the graphic is the ai?

---

That video isn't about AI, or destruction of all media, music, movies, games... but about very thin ipad pro... how media is all squeezed to fit into it. Using a sync license of the Sonny and Cher recording.

You are not alone in clueless about AI music. And it's rapidly changing, can't really compare to what was written 2 years ago. 

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/09/2024 12:54:18

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 05/09/2024:  13:35:38

But, yeah, it'll always be a heck of a lot of fun, not to mention fulfilling, to play an instrument yourself or to listen to other people play live. And as this self-admitted audiophile nut happily proclaims, there still ain't no comparison between sound that happens live and sound that's been reproduced on a machine...whether or not you've remembered to rosin the bow or clean the wax from your ears.

Edited by - Lonesome Fiddler on 05/09/2024 13:38:28

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/09/2024:  18:01:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

i think i'm clueless about ai music. i have seen a lot of talk "around" it,



but have somehow avoided seeing/hearing what it is.



like that sonny and cher video... isn't that them singing? and the graphic is the ai?

---

That video isn't about AI, or destruction of all media, music, movies, games... but about very thin ipad pro... how media is all squeezed to fit into it. Using a sync license of the Sonny and Cher recording.

You are not alone in clueless about AI music. And it's rapidly changing, can't really compare to what was written 2 years ago. 

---

I guess you must have missed the reaction to the ad. Apple issued an apology for it after it was condemned widely due to the fact that, regardless of what Apple intended to say with it, it was taken as an attack on the arts and a justification of AI for destroying the arts. Was that what Apple was suggesting? No, but that was the response to it and Apple has called it a misstep. You can argue "But people just didn't understand the message!" all you want, but this wasn't a film or a book, where deep ideas are presented for people to chew on and interpret at length. If an ad doesn't convey a message to an audience immediately in the way it was intended, it's a failure.

apnews.com/article/apple-ipad-...b87379359

If you're still feeling clueless about AI, there are plenty of resources available to learn more. It isn't a new phenomenon, and its coming has been a subject of debate for quite a long time. It's getting much more attention now that its  applications are more widespread and noticeable in everyday life. 

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 05/09/2024 18:15:38

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/09/2024:  18:47:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

 

I guess you must have missed the reaction to the ad.

---

I missed why you posted it, how it's apt to this discussion of AI?

As it doesn't seem to be about that. 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/09/2024:  22:15:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

I missed why you posted it, how it's apt to this discussion of AI?

As it doesn't seem to be about that. 

---

Because it applies so well to the situation. Many reactions to the ad included references to AI, for one. But in a more general sense, the ad, taken together with its reception, capture the spirit of the time.

Apple redesigned a product that it intended to market as a slim but powerful machine that had the capability of a room full of arts equipment in one handheld package. But the reaction to the marketing was very negative, as people took the launch as a statement, a declaration that creativity was dead and there was nothing sacred. Despite what may have been good intentions on Apple's part, it comes across as something sinister. 

 

In a similar manner, redesigned AI technology was presented as a tool to assist people in being creative. The reaction to it was also quite negative, as it was viewed as an attempt, not to aid, but to destroy creativity. Just as the Apple ad is taken as a threat to the existence of art as we know it, AI is taken as an existential threat. 

AlisonBarton - Posted - 05/10/2024:  03:54:20

Are there any courses or tutorials on how to write music with AI?

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/10/2024:  07:43:01

Think i'll just leave it for the phone zombies to play around with...At the risk of alienating myself from them even further.



Imagine a phone zombie jam session....Lol...I would imagine they already exist?

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/10/2024:  12:49:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Think i'll just leave it for the phone zombies to play around with...At the risk of alienating myself from them even further.



Imagine a phone zombie jam session....Lol...I would imagine they already exist?

---

I take that back ...Its fun... like a "one armed bandit" of musical sounds scraped from the internet lol. i still prefer playing fiddle though.

One of the best songs it came up with was from the prompt:  "phone zombie muzak"....Ha ha

ShawnCraver - Posted - 05/11/2024:  05:55:40

I spent a little time searching about ai fiddle music this morning and didn't find anything much but people talking about it and some ai generated melodies that were then played by humans. i do have concerns about ai. more nonmusical

ShawnCraver - Posted - 05/11/2024:  09:53:38

As for how it effect the music industry and making $$$. I don't know. I moved to Wichita, KS 15 years ago and could maintain a healthy schedule locally between coffee shops, concert series, and the occasional bar.



We're seeing a cultural shuft here that seems heavily corporatized. The folk org that existed when i moved here is gone. The folk concert series I used to play are gone. The coffee shops have gone or limited their hours/tore out their stages. The universities have turned from liberal arts schools to tech schools and have some jazz, music theater, and classical but no concert series... which is weird for me as a music fan, too. So my new challenge is finding gigs without burning the wheels off of a vehicle an dlosing money. We have a local bluegrass org. One fest a year. And the local favorite bluegrass band is struggling to stay on the road because Wichita is kind of isolated from other cities and music scenes.

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 05/11/2024 10:06:39

ShawnCraver - Posted - 05/11/2024:  10:06:11

But nationally, I see more human made fiddling and banjoing than I've seen. Every time I go visit relatives in western md.wv/va appalachian region there's more live music and musicians fiddling and banjoing all the time. i run into 18-20 year olds now that know what clawhammer banjo is. gen z is tech smart, but i see them picking up folk and old time music... and how to live in real time/in the nonvirtual noncorporate moment quickly.

 

tiktok.com/@jessewelles/video/...912820011

as far as song royalties and performance royalties etc. streaming is a joke. if people can use ai creatively and artistically to make money, then good for them?

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 05/11/2024 10:21:55

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/11/2024:  15:50:31

Different imaginations of this...  

Who would use such software, for what purpose would be used for? 

That is probably most important question, what the buzz is about; and what others, and myself...  are getting wrong about a lot of this. I don't think it will be used the way most folks here are imagining; esp as some fears of end of creativity; or diminishing/replacing joy of playing fiddle/banjo. How many of us think of world of music; (and even how entire business works) 

Playing with these things just to have a bit on hands on to see for myself, rather than just reading what others state... what it can or can't do.  First how good is it becoming... what can it do now, in the free available to public beta. 

As mentioned sync music, stock music, functional music... Classical strings

udio.com/songs/beufMjKXKCFYiR7bjAojC3 

udio.com/songs/uTEgPoKPQFpuoFuWDBdcqS

udio.com/songs/bX1LWcNK3dNVBTYxNfJ3E5

Spaghetti Western

https://udio.com/songs/cTFZupJh...NXBBSABb7i

Classical guitar with Celtic mood

udio.com/songs/9eAHhnDZFozsD3kMJYT1Np

udio.com/songs/mBpC4WXm7T5AbnGbmr76Nw

Delta bottlenekck blues with male vocal

https://udio.com/songs/eQZGz1zE...tWcUFL1MVx

Then into more songs with female vocal

udio.com/songs/wSUfNWAH2gP7K57dEvKteY

udio.com/songs/p76DLMjha6M3fa6upwqFo4

 

Can even do cover of public domain... like House of the Rising Sun or Amazing Grace.

udio.com/songs/uUjAaApMbjmMqBoj6Z6dsd

udio.com/songs/cTFZupJhynuSNXBBSABb7i

udio.com/songs/nDKNwPUB6GrMhEfvM6v2u1

Can go to site and discover all sorts of other genres.

These are not simply about AI as composer; that then others might perform, or record... it's the whole finished product AI made; from start to finish, just type in prompts; without need input from composer, producer, musician, instruments, singer, recording studio/engineer.  

IMO that is pretty impressive results, not what I expected. Further that no experience or skill needed; even a suit with business degree, in a tall office building can type in prompt, or have low paid intern do it. 

Who would use such software, for what purpose would be used for? 

Not for live music. Whether jams or paid gigs. Certainly not to compose fiddle tunes... there is no reason to do that at all. Not really about simply composing music... for humans to then later play live or in recording studio. Nor some creative tool to that end. 

But the "who" might be perhaps a suit with a business degree, in tall office, with no experience, skill, creativity; toward music production? The purpose might be simply needs another to generate some entire finished music to use. For example in realm of utilitarian, functional, sync music, stock music... needs. (that's a bigger part of music business than folks think). Need to have low cost of production (including paying for licensing)

There are others, and other purposes, like to do with streaming. Not necessarily about having a top 100 hit.

It's always about the money!

Yep, who/purpose mostly has to do with money...  affecting professionals that make living from music. I don't see these even as tools, that actual musicians, composers, performers, producers... would ever use... but more those in the business that just need the output for less cost.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/11/2024 16:02:52

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/11/2024:  16:28:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

as far as song royalties and performance royalties etc. streaming is a joke. if people can use ai creatively and artistically to make money, then good for them?

---

There are concerns to do with streaming.  Unskilled folks generating these... they didn't really create anything, just typed in prompt; nothing really of their own creative or artistic effort. They can't really make royalties, as they can't claim a copyright for the AI. But in taking that and posting it up on things like Spotify, as if they did create it all (no indication of AI); there is a monetization aspect. They don't have to be big "hits"... just generate enough streams get paid a few dollars. On the udio and suno sites, can see that some of those entire AI made have 10s to 100s of thousands of streamed listens, and 1000s of likes. So quick and easy, can just repeat, flood the market with x-thousands. No doubt, nothing prevents from taking advantage of that. Maybe already seeing some signs of that.

There are a lot of ethical and legal questions about much of the practices (including how AI scraped copyright materiel). 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/11/2024:  23:36:50

i can see a use for it in creating the desired atmosphere in a retail outlet for example.

Probably mix it in with other controlling sounds, odours,decor etc. To create the "ultimate Shopping experience for the " Alpha Generation". They could wear sensors on their head and get a discount price on their purchases, while informing their algorithms of their shopping experience..etc...etc.

ChickenMan - Posted - 05/12/2024:  06:58:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by alaskafiddler

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

as far as song royalties and performance royalties etc. streaming is a joke. if people can use ai creatively and artistically to make money, then good for them?

---

There are concerns to do with streaming.  Unskilled folks generating these... they didn't really create anything, just typed in prompt; nothing really of their own creative or artistic effort. They can't really make royalties, as they can't claim a copyright for the AI. But in taking that and posting it up on things like Spotify, as if they did create it all (no indication of AI); there is a monetization aspect. They don't have to be big "hits"... just generate enough streams get paid a few dollars. On the udio and suno sites, can see that some of those entire AI made have 10s to 100s of thousands of streamed listens, and 1000s of likes. So quick and easy, can just repeat, flood the market with x-thousands. No doubt, nothing prevents from taking advantage of that. Maybe already seeing some signs of that.

There are a lot of ethical and legal questions about much of the practices (including how AI scraped copyright materiel). 

---

I just watched a story about a band whose music is being stolen along thses lines. Very prolific band that posted their music to Spotify. Then, I'm not sure what prompted him, but the main songwriter found many of his songs with slightly different titles and "recorded" with not slight enough differences. Same lyrics and song layout, making money on Spotify. The story ended with them not getting any results from Spotify. What's worse, the take band was getting a magnitude more listens.

THAT should be the bigger concern. There's always someone with nefarious intentions.

tonyelder - Posted - 05/12/2024:  08:32:43

I use AI almost daily (Copilot and Bing). It is a great resource for getting answers to gardening questions and other related stuff. I have learned though - the answers aren't always correct. I'll ask bout apparent contradictions, and it will correct itself. But I wouldn't think that would be necessary. hmmm... And sometimes it seems to ignore your question and will give you an answer that isn't really what you were asking about.



But... when it comes to doing a quick search for answers - it definitely beats any other methods or tools I know of.



It's nice to have available.



My concerns have always been with social engineering and manipulation based on less than noble motives (power, wealth, control, etc). It's unsettling to think that there are some folks who are training AI to help them reach those goals.



Writing tunes and songs with AI? I guess the question is can you be creative using a computer as an outward expression of what you see and hear inside your head. Supposedly, the machines are gathering data on our personal lives so that it can bring to us what we want before we know that we want it. Is that the same as telling us what we really want to see and hear in our head?  ...or would it be more like getting us to do what it wants us to do by social manipulation.  And when that doesn't work?      ...what then?   There's no stopping it now. The Genie is out of the bottle.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 05/13/2024:  06:56:41

if i'm understanding correctly, all of those links are music that is totally done by ai, even the vocals?

if so, yep. i had no idea it was that far along. and am beginning to understand all of this and the post more

ChickenMan - Posted - 05/13/2024:  11:06:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

if i'm understanding correctly, all of those links are music that is totally done by ai, even the vocals?



if so, yep. i had no idea it was that far along. and am beginning to understand all of this and the post more

---

Right? Creepy 

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/13/2024:  11:20:19

Here is a TwoSet video where they try to guess whether compositions are human or AI made. It’s from three years ago. Even back then the programs were complex enough to make it difficult to discern.

youtu.be/PmL31mVx0XA?si=BUqR5fmpXVAoRCbT

I’ve seen a few YouTube channels pop up lately that are devoted entirely to AI-generated music that’s done in various styles for amusement. Reading about the person who made one of the channels, he is a hobbyist musician himself and doesn’t have the resources to write, record, or arrange for musicians to play compositions. He started out making humorous album art several years ago and had always received requests to write music that would go along with the album covers. Once AI technology became available widely, he began using it to come up with lots of music with some simple prompts in his spare time. With his influx of new music he began to blow up on YouTube and he’s just gotten his silver play button in recognition of his success by the site’s metrics. He states openly that the channel was made just to post “stupid music” that wasn’t intended as a serious endeavor. However, its quick rise in popularity makes the channel a realistic source of revenue.

I find this case rather interesting because the YouTuber has found a way to make money in AI music almost by accident. On the one hand, it’s a little frustrating to see really talented musicians struggle to find audiences while some who have only a casual interest in music are able to find considerable success by relying on software to write and perform for them. On the other hand, the YouTuber clearly found a way to present something that entertains a wide audience, and even if it’s not the product of tireless effort and unique writing, there’s merit in discovering something that captures an audience, whether it’s completely intentional or not.

ShawnCraver - Posted - 05/13/2024:  11:35:37

it did creep me out!

Edited by - ShawnCraver on 05/13/2024 11:35:51

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/13/2024:  11:40:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

I find this case rather interesting because the YouTuber has found a way to make money in AI music almost by accident. On the one hand, it’s a little frustrating to see really talented musicians struggle to find audiences while some who have only a casual interest in music are able to find considerable success by relying on software to write and perform for them. On the other hand, the YouTuber clearly found a way to present something that entertains a wide audience, and even if it’s not the product of tireless effort and unique writing, there’s merit in discovering something that captures an audience, whether it’s completely intentional or not.

 

---

This YouTuber is getting hits precisely because he is presenting AI and not human music. He probably isn't getting views for any other reason. The novelty factor will wear off soon enough.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/13/2024:  18:25:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Wood 

---

This YouTuber is getting hits precisely because he is presenting AI and not human music. He probably isn't getting views for any other reason. The novelty factor will wear off soon enough.

---

That may be true. I'm not sure it's the AI that is the only draw, though. Using AI allows the maker of the video to choose song lyrics that wouldn't fly on the radio or even some streaming stations. It gives people who wouldn't otherwise have musical ability a platform to send out whatever is on their minds. Since it's fed into the algorithm, an AI channel can be put into a sequence along with other music that it emulates in some way. The listeners aren't necessarily screening what comes on. I think the ridiculousness of some of the lyrics or the disconnect between the content of the lyrics and the music itself are probably a big part of it as well.

I came across one channel while listening to some Motown recordings. Since my hands were busy at the workbench I wasn't as active in switching to different albums and I let the algorithm provide some ideas. It suggested an AI channel because a number of the songs uploaded were in Motown style. The opening sequence of the song sounded similar enough to other songs I recognize that it didn't jump out immediately, but once the lyrics started it was a different matter!

 

The ideas for content like that are probably somewhat limited, but I think that's less of a problem than the potential lack of real writing that could ensue from it being so easy to get music on demand.

It wouldn't be too hard to imagine a future where AI music is marketed as the most personal expression of the self, because anyone could use the programs and simply provide some prompts. Then instead of listening to others' recordings of music, one could just ask for a musical style or mood and supply as many cues as desired to customize. Since the listener would give all the prompts it could even be presented as though doing so would make the user a composer of sorts. Why leave the comfort of home to go to a place with a bunch of strangers where you have to deal with all the distractions and the repertoire is set, when you can simply make your own music and have control over everything, including when it happens, what's being played, who's playing, the subject matter, and the lyrics? My fear about AI is that using it might make people less inclined to put the effort in to play live music themselves. 

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/13/2024:  21:15:53

You make some plausible points and it's giving me the chills. 

tonyelder - Posted - 05/14/2024:  07:11:55

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Wood 

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This YouTuber is getting hits precisely because he is presenting AI and not human music. He probably isn't getting views for any other reason. The novelty factor will wear off soon enough.

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That may be true. I'm not sure it's the AI that is the only draw, though. Using AI allows the maker of the video to choose song lyrics that wouldn't fly on the radio or even some streaming stations. It gives people who wouldn't otherwise have musical ability a platform to send out whatever is on their minds. Since it's fed into the algorithm, an AI channel can be put into a sequence along with other music that it emulates in some way. The listeners aren't necessarily screening what comes on. I think the ridiculousness of some of the lyrics or the disconnect between the content of the lyrics and the music itself are probably a big part of it as well.

I came across one channel while listening to some Motown recordings. Since my hands were busy at the workbench I wasn't as active in switching to different albums and I let the algorithm provide some ideas. It suggested an AI channel because a number of the songs uploaded were in Motown style. The opening sequence of the song sounded similar enough to other songs I recognize that it didn't jump out immediately, but once the lyrics started it was a different matter!

The ideas for content like that are probably somewhat limited, but I think that's less of a problem than the potential lack of real writing that could ensue from it being so easy to get music on demand.

It wouldn't be too hard to imagine a future where AI music is marketed as the most personal expression of the self, because anyone could use the programs and simply provide some prompts. Then instead of listening to others' recordings of music, one could just ask for a musical style or mood and supply as many cues as desired to customize. Since the listener would give all the prompts it could even be presented as though doing so would make the user a composer of sorts. Why leave the comfort of home to go to a place with a bunch of strangers where you have to deal with all the distractions and the repertoire is set, when you can simply make your own music and have control over everything, including when it happens, what's being played, who's playing, the subject matter, and the lyrics? My fear about AI is that using it might make people less inclined to put the effort in to play live music themselves. 

---

Originally posted by Brian Wood 

You make some plausible points and it's giving me the chills. 

Me:  "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

Yes. This is what I was pointing to... Who is to say that the AI we are using is not being trained to respond to our requests in a way that is designed for a specific goal, or social outcome?  ...through the  guise of customizing it "just for us" - a well designed deception. As Rich says:

Since the listener would give all the prompts it could even be presented as though doing so would make the user a composer of sorts. Why leave the comfort of home to go to a place with a bunch of strangers where you have to deal with all the distractions and the repertoire is set, when you can simply make your own music and have control over everything, including when it happens, what's being played, who's playing, the subject matter, and the lyrics? My fear about AI is that using it might make people less inclined to put the effort in to play live music themselves. 

imo - We are being trained (conditioned) to think that AI is only a dispassionate machine that is responding to our desires and producing what we want - and not what someone else is wanting. Scary indeed.

Doesn't happen?  Certainly doesn't happen at Facebook, Tick-Tok, Twitter (X), etc...    I don't think we're in Kansas anymore...

Actually, I think all of this has always been a part of life. The difference now is that it is more sophisticated and effective (more powerful) - and it has our attention. My fear is that - pretty soon - deciding to "drop out" will only make you a target. 

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/14/2024:  12:09:01

None of this has anything to do with playing the fiddle in the least . Just hit a double stop right and you will feel what i am saying.



It is what it is...."Artificial intelligence" playing artificial music. It is "Artificial". it has been here since the pianola.... at least. probably earlier in those cuckoo clocks that play tunes.The clue is in the title ...



IMO it is homogeneous waffle. So the title may as well be "HW Music is coming, faster than we thought" if folk want to listen to it, dance and socialize with with it that's up to them. i'll just take this old wooden box with strings on it down the boozer and make a fool of myself as usual.

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/14/2024:  13:44:44

I'm seeing there may be real human consequences. Though nothing prevents one from sticking his head in the sand and playing his own fiddle (I'll happily join you at the bar, Pete), music for movies, TV, and TV commercials, are likely to be impacted, for one. So the world around us gets cheapened evermore. And, like the ubiquitous self-checkout at the grocery taking away real human jobs, so will fake music do away with human contributors, leaving only corporations enriched. Just think, even your local farmers' market might not have to worry about paying for bands or royalty fees once we all come to expect "music" to flow cheaply from algorithms. For a small fee a market manager might get a license for "guaranteed farmers market shopping delight", because despite the fact you might be able to summon your own fake music for free there will be those marketing it so you can have the "best" competitive experience without having to go the the trouble.

Individual and collaborative music will survive wherever people choose to create it, but society as a whole suffers from canned music. I'm a bit of a Luddite in that I feel I could easily live my whole life with the technology from the 1950s, when I entered the world. But human nature and economic systems drive society. It's arguable which technologies are advancements and which are only advancements for their own sake. But, once here, new technologies can't be un-invented.

There's nothing we can do beyond passing a few laws and strengthening musicians' unions.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/16/2024:  11:59:31

"Though nothing prevents one from sticking his head in the sand and playing his own fiddle (I'll happily join you at the bar, Pete),"



There is nothing there Brian, it is "Artificial" . The folk who think it is real are deluded, and imo "Sticking their head in the sand"....Even to the point of overlooking the meaning of "Artificial".



It is by it's own description , "Artificial". I think folk should be able to recognize it as such...And if they cannot , imo, they will have parted from reality.

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/16/2024:  12:22:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete_fiddle

"Though nothing prevents one from sticking his head in the sand and playing his own fiddle (I'll happily join you at the bar, Pete),"



There is nothing there Brian, it is "Artificial" . The folk who think it is real are deluded, and imo "Sticking their head in the sand"....Even to the point of overlooking the meaning of "Artificial".



It is by it's own description , "Artificial". I think folk should be able to recognize it as such...And if they cannot , imo, they will have parted from reality.

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Well, my point was more about economics, so I'm not in disagreement. But the philosophical question: if a tune has been written and performed by AI, and no one knows it, but it enters the culture and everybody learns how it goes and start humming it all the time, is it Artificial? I have no doubt that a catchy tune can be composed by AI. It isn't an appealing idea but I can't see why not. Lots of human composed popular music today has no soul I can hear. Is it better just by having been written by "artists", as they often call themselves"

pete_fiddle - Posted - 05/16/2024:  12:53:39

Yes.. you could always "stick your head in the sand" and pretend that you "composed" it i suppose...More power to your elbow. If you get away with it.

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/16/2024:  15:41:46

quote:

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Originally posted by pete_fiddle

Yes.. you could always "stick your head in the sand" and pretend that you "composed" it i suppose...More power to your elbow. If you get away with it.

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Not sure what you mean?

gapbob - Posted - 05/16/2024:  21:46:58

Humans are copyists, we learn from those who come before us, who have shown us, taught us, through instruction or just our observation.  Sometimes a genius will think out of the box and come up with something new.



Artificial intelligence is merely a computerized version of that, we all have organic processes that creates music, based on what we have learned/heard. Likewise, computer have a silicon process by which they do the same thing. All these complaints about plagiarism and AI are there because humans have skillfully plagiarized, copying and blending learning in our somewhat feeble mental processes such that it is not detectable, though computers are pretty exacting on how they can retain data. Their difficulty is in correlating one thing to another, which is what humans excel at.



AI algorithms will continue to improve and I've no doubt that most music can and will be composed and even performed by computer in the future. How long will it take for artistic processes to be replaced by computers? They have already replaced many of the tasks humanity has had to do. Give it ten or twenty years and there will be huge amounts of computer-generated music.



Watch the film Troy and compare it to Lawrence of Arabia. It is amazing how many extras they were using at one time in movies.

Edited by - gapbob on 05/16/2024 21:47:49

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/16/2024:  23:40:29

A couple days ago I was talking with a luthier and his apprentice and I brought this topic up. When I mentioned that many people were concerned that AI would start dominating composition of music, the apprentice said “I hope to God it does. AI would be a huge improvement from the formulaic crap that’s coming out nowadays.”

Given the state of popular music, his comment is apt. Perhaps instead of trying to compete with machines it’s better to just treasure the great works all the more and not grasp about desperately attempting to find some new sound.

AI can emulate the style of a composer by analyzing music in a probabilistic manner. If you know that Beethoven was likely to use a cadence 40% of the time and that he voiced chords a certain way 70% of the time or if he resolved a chord to a certain different chord 65% of the time, that’s all information a computer could interpret to form a template for that composer’s style.

GeorgeH - Posted - 05/17/2024:  03:48:50

AI is going to eat the web. As search engines provide AI-generated "natural language" answers at the top of search page, there will be little incentive to click on the human-created links below them. Therefore, there will be little incentive for human beings to continue to provide content because it will just be assimilated by the AI algorithms.

Why create content when nobody will see it?



Soon, AI will simply be eating and regurgitating its own content.



(Ironically, this may possibly be suicidal to Google because if people stop clicking on links, their Ad Words advertising business will be drastically reduced.)



It will be the same for music. As AI-generated music begins to predominate the web, AI will be consuming its own music to feed its algorithms  to create more AI music. The human being created music will simply be lost in this morass.



Eventually (not too far away), AI machines will be creating music to entertain themselves because why would they care anymore what those slow-brained human beings create?

Edited by - GeorgeH on 05/17/2024 03:53:51

boxbow - Posted - 05/17/2024:  05:42:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by GeorgeH

AI is going to eat the web. As search engines provide AI-generated "natural language" answers at the top of search page, there will be little incentive to click on the human-created links below them. Therefore, there will be little incentive for human beings to continue to provide content because it will just be assimilated by the AI algorithms.

Why create content when nobody will see it?



Soon, AI will simply be eating and regurgitating its own content.



(Ironically, this may possibly be suicidal to Google because if people stop clicking on links, their Ad Words advertising business will be drastically reduced.)



It will be the same for music. As AI-generated music begins to predominate the web, AI will be consuming its own music to feed its algorithms  to create more AI music. The human being created music will simply be lost in this morass.



Eventually (not too far away), AI machines will be creating music to entertain themselves because why would they care anymore what those slow-brained human beings create?

---

Might it all reduce to a never-ending 60 hz opus?

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/17/2024:  07:05:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by GeorgeH

AI is going to eat the web. As search engines provide AI-generated "natural language" answers at the top of search page, there will be little incentive to click on the human-created links below them. Therefore, there will be little incentive for human beings to continue to provide content because it will just be assimilated by the AI algorithms.

Why create content when nobody will see it?



Soon, AI will simply be eating and regurgitating its own content.



(Ironically, this may possibly be suicidal to Google because if people stop clicking on links, their Ad Words advertising business will be drastically reduced.)



It will be the same for music. As AI-generated music begins to predominate the web, AI will be consuming its own music to feed its algorithms  to create more AI music. The human being created music will simply be lost in this morass.



Eventually (not too far away), AI machines will be creating music to entertain themselves because why would they care anymore what those slow-brained human beings create?

---

That's definitely something to consider, whether or not it ends up that way.

I wonder, though, if the death of the internet will really be a bad thing for humanity (should it occur). If AI displaces human interaction, humans will seek it out elsewhere. History provides a lot of examples for ways that people can interact without modern technology that can be controlled by AI. If musicians want to get together and play music, that can still happen in both formal and informal settings. 

Edited by - The Violin Beautiful on 05/17/2024 07:05:30

ChickenMan - Posted - 05/17/2024:  08:12:53

The Internet, despite being very helpful in ways and social in ways, could go away tomorrow and our lives would be all the better for it. Thank you Al Gore, but we've had enough 

I listen to pop music and can say that the 2 or 3 Swedes that write and produce most of it might well be using AI at this point since most of pop music is a derivative of the previous hits. The new Taylor Swift record is so melodically similar and uninteresting from one track to another that I am now convinced that it was AI generated or assisted. 

Edited by - ChickenMan on 05/17/2024 08:14:12

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/17/2024:  12:30:17

So AI might become a cannibalistic, self-limiting entity, then? Will this spawn the antithesis? Which is what...what is the opposite of artificial intelligence???? Artificial stupidity???? Lol...or maybe artificial is not the key word here. I would love to see the internet just dissolve away into nothingness...then, maybe the nothingness of humanity will morph into community and collaboration.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 05/17/2024:  15:55:23

quote:

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Originally posted by Shawn Craver Fiddler

if i'm understanding correctly, all of those links are music that is totally done by ai, even the vocals?



if so, yep. i had no idea it was that far along. and am beginning to understand all of this and the post more

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Yep, ALL totally done by AI, even vocals.

It think it's easy to think of only about composition, melody and lyrics; and copyrights. That is part, but it misses a lot of other. Often the end product, a "sound file" for use.

In making a sound file... whether composition is good, mediocre, poor, turd, or even public domain...  what makes that usable and adds value; comes from musicians, singers, voice over narration, to producer, engineer, mix, to the gear and studio playing part. Relies on musical knowledge and skill; from technical skilled, just follow composition instruction; but often more with individuals contributing  a bit of individual input on their part(s). Some cases more than the composition; talented folks can do whats called "polishing turds" make something usable. All of that process all gets quite human time consuming start to finish; and expensive; even for just passive music (film, TV, video, ads, ambient, mood etc).

The problem from businessmen is control means of production; need/solution is more control, what gets job done, saves them time/hassle and lowers costs/expenses, for their use of music sound files; thus ROI for bottom line (profit). AI, even the free public beta version, has already demonstrated ability, a solution can already fulfill some of that need and usage of sound files. Relies less on (or eliminates) on others above, with musical knowledge, skill, or gear. None of it is really for the benefit of listeners.But it makes business POV sense for many, so why wouldn't they use this?

Not to stoke fears; but professionals in music; including those in music schooling (esp expensive ones)... should pay attention to, be aware of realities; might need to rethink, or shift focus... of future going forward in changing paradigm, landscape; of opportunities and value.

I am skeptical about many of the other claims, (some pretty sci-fi); they don't really make much logical sense it would be used in such way. Not really identifying or addressing a problem or demand; that needs solution; or often have easy efficient solution(s) that already exists.

I agree that none of this will have much to do with or directly affect most of the fiddle world, why folks inspired to play fiddle. Indirectly though AI is helping spark discussion, questions about aspects of music, making music, creativity... purpose, goals; and some gray area ethics and legal issues about copying; and valuation.

Edited by - alaskafiddler on 05/17/2024 15:57:34