skoffco - Posted - 11/15/2008:  15:40:24

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Can someone tell me to where I can find the pentatonic scales for violin? Preferably in tab, but I`ll take them any way I can get them.

Thanks for your help,

Darrell

ladymuse - Posted - 11/15/2008:  16:09:06

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here's 2 links that might get you started at least!

dolmetsch.com/musictheory25.htm#pentatonic

xomba.com/major_pentatonic_sca...or_violin

jen!

DougD - Posted - 11/15/2008:  16:33:05

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I suppose there could be lots of pentatonic scales, but the one I know is Tonic, flat third, Fourth, Fifth, flat Seventh. This is the scale for "Honeybabe Blues" and what Dock Boggs used for "Country Blues."
This would be so for any key. If this doesn't make sense, just look at major scales and think about the differences.

Here's a pretty good explanation without so many annoying popups: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentatonic_scale
The "major" pentatonic there is Tonic, major second, major third, Fifth, major Sixth.

I also came across this explanation from a little different perspective: dantranh.com/pentatonic.html

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Edited by - DougD on 11/16/2008 01:22:54

skoffco - Posted - 11/15/2008:  16:40:21

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Thanks for the info. Jen, your link answered my question.

Darrell

fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/15/2008:  20:33:39

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Even though your question is answered, this is a fairly non-technical, non-theoretical way to find
pentatonic scales, and could be handy for someone.

If you have access to a piano, keyboard, or organ,
the black keys played by themselves form a pentatonic scale.
If you start on Gb (the lowest in the 3 black keys grouped together)
you have major pentatonic.
If you start on Eb (the higher of the 2 black keys grouped together,
you have another minor pentatonic- it sounds like a blues pentatonic to me.
If you start on Ab (the middle of the 3 black keys grouped together)
you have one minor pentatonic that sounds kind of Celtic and doesn't seem
to fit as many tunes.

Now, Gb major, Ab minor and Eb blues minor are not really very useful keys on fiddle,
but if you have a music keyboard that has a transpose function, you could
transpose those to whatever you want.

Or if you just have a keyboard piano or organ that doesn't transpose,
if you stick to the 5 white keys just to the RIGHT of the black keys,
or the 5 white keys just to the LEFT of the black keys, you also
have pentatonic scales.
Just to the right of the black keys gives you G major pentatonic, A minor pentatonic, and
E minor blues pentatonic,
and just to the left gives you F major pentatonic and G minor pentatonic,
and D minor blues pentatonic.

Amazing Grace,
Jesus Loves Me,
Poor Ellen Smith,
Old Dan Tucker,
Johnson Boys
Eighth of January
and Handsome Molly
are all major pentatonic,
and Shady Grove is minor pentatonic
St. James Infirmary, House of the Rising Sun,
and Spoonful (by Cream) not surprisingly
are blues pentatonic- (center on the Eb note)
but "I've Always Been A Rambler" and "Same Old Man, Living at the Mill"
work too.


Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

coelhoe - Posted - 11/16/2008:  09:27:42

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Doug: What you have is the so-called "blues scale" but it normally also includes the fifth flatted.

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

bj - Posted - 11/16/2008:  10:27:24

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quote:

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If you have access to a piano, keyboard, or organ,
the black keys played by themselves form a pentatonic scale.

---

Here's a piano for you. Good enough for this sort of stuff. Needs Java to run.

pianoworld.com/fun/javapiano/javapiano.htm


^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^.^
Me on the Web --
doneinstyle.com

My inspiration:
pandora.com/?sc=sh14633812588807237

DougD - Posted - 11/16/2008:  10:28:49

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Dennis, the Wikipedia article calls that scale the minor pentatonic, although it certainly sounds bluesy. Its the one Fiddlepogo describes by starting the black keys on Eb, and he referred to it as a blues minor scale. Its the same group of notes as the major pentatonic, only starting a minor third down, like a relative minor. A,C,D,E,G vs. C,D,E,G,A.

I realized after I posted that I really don't know too much about this. I use that minor scale some, especially on banjo, but I'd never thought of most of the major pentatonic tunes pogo listed as even pentatonic, but I guess they are. I can play one tune on the Dan Tranh though!

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Edited by - DougD on 11/16/2008 10:29:50

ladymuse - Posted - 11/16/2008:  12:44:44

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Geez - I have used them - can play them by ear, (for my uses) but after reading the WIKI article, I must say it was TMI! - no simple grammer 'school' explanation here!

Well written, but I have always known the simpler version as the scale steps -
(in case there are those who are not super conversant with the scale degree names)
and can be applied to any key -

This is assuming you are familiar with the major scale (and counting) to go from:

Major - 1 2 3 5 6
minor - 1 3 4 5 and 7

(above has worked well for me)
this simple explanation seems to have worked well for others I have played with if they wanted to know.

then it's just playing and improvising with them until you can "hear"

I might be able to tab it for you (at least the basic keys - if you have Adobe or some other PDF reader -
(not to many fiddle things in F#minor)
(I can't figure out how to load them to our tab section ) Need you to send me your email though - as they won't go through the PMs - I think - maybe tonight, maybe couple days max - (my schedule)

I normally think in notes - but hey - between my banjo and a fiddle student, I have entered the tab writing/reading thing.
Jen!

If anyone else needs them - let me know - again, its pdf tab or notes - say which - ! (and based on the above simple steps)

jen

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Edited by - ladymuse on 11/16/2008 12:51:51

fiddlepogo - Posted - 11/16/2008:  13:12:20

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quote:

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Originally posted by bj

quote:

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If you have access to a piano, keyboard, or organ,
the black keys played by themselves form a pentatonic scale.

---

Here's a piano for you. Good enough for this sort of stuff. Needs Java to run.

pianoworld.com/fun/javapiano/javapiano.htm

---

And on the same site, I'm sure you're not ig-NORA-nt about this:
pianoworld.com/piano-playing-cat.html

Michael- Old Time 90% of the time!

"It''s hard to take yourself seriously when you''re singing about chickens!"

ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088
for mp3s, blog, and "Michael''s Old Time Fiddle & Banjo Hour" (hifi & lofi audio streams)

ladymuse - Posted - 11/16/2008:  13:22:24

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LOL! Just a note here -

the piano is always good for hearing - (and way easy!)
But tabbing for fiddle is new to me - and my program doesn't do 4 lines, only 5 -
so I realized that it isn't like tabbing for banjo or mando - except that it's the fingered half steps that denote the numbers -

It's a great project to learn though, so I found a site that tells you how you read and write it-

I'm still going to familiarize myself and do it - but figure instead of inventing my own system, I would see what the standard is. I can adapt my notation program to it -
(honestly writing music is easier!!! LOL!

LOL! Now I am intriqued! What an adventure!!!!!

jen!

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Edited by - ladymuse on 11/16/2008 13:32:51

wormbower - Posted - 12/01/2008:  21:28:18

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If you know the George Gershwin song, "Someone To Watch Over Me," then you know the pentatonic scale!

Paul

Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/13/2008:  04:11:56

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I have some pentatonic exercises in all 12 keys on my page under the photos.

walterwheate33 - Posted - 12/16/2008:  08:43:54

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Fiddlebanjo, you exercises helped me a lot, I am starting to get an insight of all this music stuff.. How can I try different scales so I know how to distinguish between them?

Live and Let live

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/17/2008:  00:33:54

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quote:

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Originally posted by walterwheate33

Fiddlebanjo, you exercises helped me a lot, I am starting to get an insight of all this music stuff.. How can I try different scales so I know how to distinguish between them?

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Good. The exercise is a little monotonous but it is a good finger/ear workout, which is why I made it. The 2nd part is really just the Durham's Reel lick, which just happens to be a pentatonic thingy.

I'm not really sure I understand your question. Sorry.

Do you mean how do you distinquish between different pentatonic scales, or between pentatonic and other scales (diminished scales, ex.)? Or do you mean how do you know when to use what?

But one thing I'm sure I can say is don't think you can run through this stuff too fast. You're not going to learn Pentatonics on Monday and be ready for Melodic Minor by Wednesday and then Whole Tone and Diminished on Friday. Most learners probably need to spend a good long time with Pentatonics, at least until they become 2nd nature.

Of course it just depends what kind of music you're trying to play also. If you are into Swing, chord arpeggios are gonna be really useful too.

walterwheate33 - Posted - 12/17/2008:  09:33:23

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I understand I cannot get thought it all too fast. I will have to be very slow as I still cannot distinguish between scales. All he three interpretations you have made out of my question are correct. I want to learn answers to all of them

Live and Let live

fiddlenbanjo - Posted - 12/19/2008:  01:43:39

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Here's a great Play Along CD to practice your pentatonics and other licks on:

elderly.com/books/items/49-695716.htm

I LOVE IT! Lots of great examples of good fiddle licks to copy from too. The book that comes along with it also shows positions,scales and approaches for improvisation for each jam tune. It's really fun to play along with and will really free up your playing. The CD is mixed really well and not all of the rhythm instruments are strings, so the fiddle/violin really sounds great along with it. Very inspiring way to practice/jam.

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Edited by - fiddlenbanjo on 12/19/2008 18:17:08

Fidla - Posted - 12/19/2008:  05:46:58

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nice

______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com

walterwheate33 - Posted - 12/20/2008:  05:30:25

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That one looks really nice - thanks for the advice!

Live and Let live

Fidla - Posted - 12/20/2008:  06:52:22

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quote:

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Originally posted by walterwheate33
I still cannot distinguish between scales.

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Scales are simply spaces between notes with a beginning and an end, and a certain number of notes in the middle. In western tonal music, which bluegrass, old time, celtic, jazz, rock, folk, pop fit into, a scale is 7 unique tones, and the duplicate of the tonic 8 notes above arrayed in the following order:

(A whole space = 2 half spaces - on the violin a half space is usually 1 finger width, a whole space 2).

Major scales: root (first note), whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half

G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G

Minor scales: root, whole, half, whole, whole, half, whole, whole




______________
Adam R. Sweet
adamrsweet.com

karpdiem2 - Posted - 01/20/2009:  10:34:46

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I tried finding the sales, couldn't find 'em.
karpdiem2@yahoo.com

zai - Posted - 01/20/2009:  11:20:42

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Here's a handy tool that might help some: studybass.com/tools/chord-scal...-printer/

No more violence, more violins!!!

jameyspratt - Posted - 03/05/2009:  16:05:54

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What about the scale:

G, Bflat, C, C#, D, F, F#, G

What is this called? Please don't tell me it's crap :-) Seriously, this combination makes for some nice banjo licks, and some pretty cool fiddle licks, though my fiddling is much less accomplished at this point than my banjo playing.

abinigia - Posted - 03/07/2009:  10:10:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by wormbower

If you know the George Gershwin song, "Someone To Watch Over Me," then you know the pentatonic scale!

Paul

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Yes, Also the instrumental riff behind "My Girl" ("I've got sunshine, on a cloudy day...")

Brian Wood
briankwood.net/

wormbower - Posted - 03/07/2009:  10:57:26

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quote:

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Originally posted by abinigia



Yes, Also the instrumental riff behind "My Girl" ("I've got sunshine, on a cloudy day...")

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Oh YEAHHHHH!

Paul

Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. -Faith Petric
The chief enemy of creativity is common sense -Pablo Picasso

abinigia - Posted - 03/07/2009:  11:03:13

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A warning about the pentatonic scale. About 20 quintillion guitar players have mastered the minor (or "blues") pentatonic scale and use only that to improvise over every tune they ever play. Listen to rock music solos, and it's sometimes all you hear. Very useful, obviously, but it can be a trap.

Brian Wood
briankwood.net/

Henry George - Posted - 03/07/2009:  15:47:28

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quote:

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Originally posted by jameyspratt

What about the scale:

G, Bflat, C, C#, D, F, F#, G

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This is the minor pentatonic scale with added chromatics on the flattened 5th and the raised 7th.

The pentatonic is a good way to build solos.......eg, the penta derived from the tonic major chord ( the major penta..1.2.3.5.6.) will sound good in a tune with only one chord and can also be played over a chord progression. If you need a blues feel,use the minor penta ( 1.b3.4.5.b7.) Immediately this increases the number of notes you can choose to play by mixing these two scales.
For more interesting ( fun ) solos change the penta to fit the chord, eg, on the 4th chord play also (.1.2.3.5.6.) eg, if in the key of C ( on the C chord ,1.2.3.5.6. would be C.D.E.G.A. On the F chord, 1.2.3.5.6. would be F.G.A.C.D. And on the G chord...G.A.B.D.E. Now you have all the notes in the key/scale.
Pentatonics can also contain semi-tones, for instance if you play this pattern...1.2.3.5.6. over the the minor chords, such as D minor in the key of C, the notes are altered thus.....1.2.b3.5.6. And E minor...1.b2.b3.5.6. And A minor....1.2.b3.5.b6.
Consider also these pentatonic patterns............
( 1.2.4.5.7.) (1.3.4.6.7.) (1.2.4.5.6.) (1.3.4.5.7.). Making alterations where necessary.

I can hear music,sweet,sweet music.

OTJunky - Posted - 03/07/2009:  15:55:05

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Don't you want a flat sixth on the E minor pentatonic scale - when playing it over an E minor chord in the key of C?

--OTJ
"I can barely fiddle on four strings. Why would I want five?"

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Edited by - OTJunky on 03/07/2009 15:55:49

Henry George - Posted - 03/08/2009:  04:05:31

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Absolutely, well spotted OT.
In the key of C, the Hemitonic ( with semi-tones ) on the E minor chord.....1.b2.b3.5.b6.
And anhemitonic ( without semi-tones ) on Em.....1.b3.4.5.b7.
Put them together for the Phrygian scale.

I can hear music,sweet,sweet music.

Peghead - Posted - 03/12/2009:  09:09:14

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There are 3 minor modes contained within the major scale. They are dorian (starts on the 2nd note of the scale), phrygian (starts on the 3rd), and aeolian (starts on the 6th). The pentatonic minor is a universal generic minor scale. It functions well in so many instances because it strategically omits the the passing tones that differentiate the modes from each other. If you write the intervals of the 3 minor modes and list them on top of each other, then go down the list and cross off any notes that don't appear in all 3 and you arrrive at the pentatonic minor. It derives it's utility by omission because it avoids specificity. Caution - It functions well for a few bars of passing minor chords but for longer passages or for a song in a minor key, it's bland and gets tedious quickly. It is a cool modol sound though and there are tons of old time and BG melodies that use it. Bill Monroe wrote some beautys. In other cases I personally would try to consider the other chords in the songs structure to arrrive at the proper mode so you can utilize the correct passing tones. In plain language, it's not chicken and noodle, it's not chicken and vegetable, it's not chicken and rice, it's unflavored chicken stock, right out of the can. Greg

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Edited by - Peghead on 03/12/2009 09:21:35

coelhoe - Posted - 03/13/2009:  07:36:39

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I must be missing something in understanding this. I wrote out the C major scales and then D to D, and E to E, but these scales all contain all of the same notes.

Could you give an example of your description in the key of C? Maybe also, the titles or one or two of Monroe's uses of this concept. Thanks!

Dennis

"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

Peghead - Posted - 03/13/2009:  12:09:06

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Hi Dennis,
You're on the right track, I'll lay it out in more detail. In the key of C and starting on C is the Major Scale or Ionian Mode. Starting on the second note (staying in the key of C) always produces the Dorian Mode. It is a minor mode. In the case of C, D minor Dorian (d,e,f,g,a,b,c,d,) Starting on the third note creates the Phrygian mode and is also a minor mode Specifically E minor - Phrygian. The 4th produces a major mode (F -Lydian) the 5th is also a major mode (G-Mixolydian) Starting on the 6th note (A) creates another minor mode (Aeolian -the most common minor mode) The 7th is a diminished mode (Locrian) and is pretty uncommon. Remember, we started in C major and we havn't added or changed any notes in the mix. The modes are imbedded within the major scale. It's simply a question of which note you chose as a starting tone. Within every major scale there are (3) major modes, (3) minor, and (1) diminished mode. That's the first part of the answer. Take the song Jeruselum Ridge - Key of A minor. Have you ever noticed you're playing in the key of C. If you saw it written out in musical notation you would see no sharps, no flats. That is because it is in the key of A minor - Aeolian which is a mode of C (the 6th). In others words start on A, but play in the key of C. If you play tunes the mode is in the package, you may not care much about it, if you write tunes or like to improvise it's powerfull knowledge. For the second part of this, you will need to create a chart for yourself but I'll cut to it. If you have to improvise over an A minor chord or a song in A minor you need to make a choice as to which minor mode best fits. This is difficult to do on the fly. There is an A minor (aeolian) which is derived from the Key of C which we just discussed, but there is A Minor -Dorian derived from the key of G and again A minor- Phrygian (Key of F). Each has the root, flat 3rd (the minor chromosome) and 5th but differs in other passing tones that can make it sound "out " if you use the wrong mode. That's where the pentatonic minor comes in, an A minor pentatonic scale works equally well for songs in C, G of F because it retains the common notes from all 3 modes, but leaves out the passing tones that could cause a problem. It's the minor skeleton that you use while you figure out what to wear. Hope that helps, let me know - Greg

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Edited by - Peghead on 03/13/2009 12:16:29

Henry George - Posted - 03/13/2009:  16:03:28

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All the modes in a specified key contain the same notes and their character is derived ( as Greg said ) from their starting note.
This modal character is determined by the structure of the scale degrees, the placement of the tones and semi-tones.
The structure of the Ionian scale is T.T.st.T.T.T.st. Therefore, if starting on the second note of this scale the first interval is placed at the end.
This scale is called the Dorian.......T.st.T.T.T.st.T. And so forth through the key..
Phrygian....st.T.T.T.st.T.T.
Lydian........T.T.T.st.T.T.st.
Mixolydian..T.T.st.T.T.st..T
Aoelian ......T.st.T.T.st.T.T.
Locrian......st.T.T.st.T.T.T.

The Dorian and the Aoelian, if played on the same key note, have only one note different ( the flatted 6th or raised 6th respectively ).
I can't think of any songs that are played in the Phrygian mode, but it's only one note different from the Dorian including a flatted 2nd.

I can hear music,sweet,sweet music.

coelhoe - Posted - 03/13/2009:  20:02:31

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Greg and Henry: Thanks for the explanations. I've understood the mode concepts pretty well for some time, but never thought of them in a pentatonic approach. I think I see what you are saying, but I'll have to give it a try on a few ideas.

Thanks again

Dennis



"Not being able to play very well is a good substitute for not having good taste." -Eddie Adcock

Peghead - Posted - 03/16/2009:  08:52:40

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Dennis, The paper work is a little mundane, work out your own matrix. I'm with Henry, it's easier to learn the intervals and then apply them to the notes. The intervals (spaces between the notes) are the algebra or formula of the modes. The major scales have alot of information contained within in them, each mode is a shifted version of the major scale. It's harder to explain this stuff than to do it. Practicing the modes is so simple but you do need to have the major scales under you fingers first which is why they are so important. Practice by playing the major scale up and back, then start on the second note (up and back) then the third and so on. You'll recognize the sound of this exercise immediatly, players (especially singers) do it all the time as warm up. It helps sort it out if you say the note and mode as you go. There are several silly pnemonics that students use to help remember the modes and their sequence. Ionic, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian. - " I Don't Play Loud Music After Lectures"
Greg

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Edited by - Peghead on 04/03/2009 13:09:40

Peghead - Posted - 03/16/2009:  10:20:57

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Henry - (I mistakenly refered to you by your last name) - thanks for chipping in.

davidblair - Posted - 06/11/2009:  03:11:49

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Hi everyone!
I'm newly registered here, I play guitar, fiddle, mandolin, tenor banjo, and I also enjoy building and repairing instruments.
After years of music lessons that focused on technique, I suddenly realized the importance of learning theory.
The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine is totally worth buying.
My understanding of pentatonic scales is that they are derived from the "chord scale" of the chord, change, or interval, and then modified appropriately for the modal name of that change or interval, with consideration too for extensions such as 9, 11, 13, etc. Then there is no short answer defining a pentatonic scale except that "avoid notes" are not used. That leaves 5 or 6 basic vanilla tones, root, 2, the notes in it's chord structure. But all 10 or 11 notes of each chord scale are available to use.

Peghead - Posted - 06/11/2009:  10:02:52

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Pentatonic simply means 5 notes.
The major pentatonic scale is 1,2,3,5,6 of the major scale. The minor pentonic scale is 1, b3, 4,5,b7. The major pentatonic scale is ancient, the 4th and 7th notes were inserted later. Greg

Jeff Angeley - Posted - 11/11/2009:  19:16:41

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Well said peghead.
And to find out which 5 notes all you need is the formula.
The scale degrees of pentatonics and scales derived from them are all explained relative to the major scale.
C Major = C D E F G A B C
C Major = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
This much has to be accepted as true to explain the other scales. 1, 2 ,3 ,4 ,5, 6 ,7 always refer to what they would be if they were in the major scale.

therefore, to explain how to arrive at the following scales follow these formulas...
1 2 3 5 6 1 = Pentatonic Major so C Pentatonic Major = C D E G A C
1 b3 4 5 b7 = Pentatonic Minor so C Pentatonic Minor = C Eb F G Bb

and the most common derived scales...
C Major Blues = C D Eb E G A C (1 2 b3 3 5 6 1)
C Minor Blues = C Eb F F# G Bb C (1 b3 4 #4 5 b7 1)
These are both blues scales but most people will associate the minor blues with 'the' blues. The major blues is nearly universally applicable over major chords in improvised North American music and can be found in swing, bluegrass, rock, country, blues and a whole lot more places.

If you want them in a different key, start with the major scale of that key and then follow the number formula.
A G scale would be G A B C D E F# G (1234567)
If you want G pentatonic major use 1,2,3,5,6 and 1(GABDEG)
If you want G major blues use 1,2,b3,3,5,6and 1 (GABbBDEG)
You need the major scale and the numerical formula to create the pentatonic or blues scale that you want.

Jeff

I love green lampshades.

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Edited by - Jeff Angeley on 11/11/2009 20:26:39

hendrid - Posted - 11/12/2009:  05:51:42

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This is an old but interesting thread. There is a thread on Circle of Fifths over on theory in banjohangout.com that says a little about pentatonics.

The pentatonic notes for a key are the fifth notes, note penta, If you go clockwise or to the right around the circle of fifth notes, C G D A E though not in order these are the pentatonic notes. C D E G A of the C scale for instance.

Now as to a template of note locations on a fiddle for the pentatonics, hmmm. On a guitar, sort of falls out with the chord shapes. Easy way to start to pick a tune by ear except for a few in between or passing notes. There may be easier ways for a fiddle or mandolin though.

Don

Henry George - Posted - 11/13/2009:  02:00:29

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I;ve done a few posts on pentatonics on some other sites and I thought it would be appropriate to post one of them here.

There are many pentatonics contained in the major scale, this includes the 5 note scales with semi-tones which are found in exotic cultures. These are called Hemitonic and those without semi-tones....... Anhemitonic. I found a good example of a classical composer useing both types of pentatonics by transposing the theme......Morning from Peer Gynt Suite by Grieg.

As the exotic cultures would tend play their music in only one scale, we could employ all of them perhaps in an improvisation.

The Standard Major Pentatonic Scale:

C.D.E.G.A…..

This fits nicely over the C chord because it contains the chordal notes C.E.G…..
The D and A notes would be treated as passing notes.
Another chord is also represented in this scale….the A minor chord, by the notes…A.C.E. Therefore if you play the same notes but start on the A (the 6th note) it becomes……….

The Standard Minor Pentatonic:

A.C.D.E.G.

Therefore, this scale is derived from the same notes as above C.D.E.G.A.
Three other scales can also be derived………

D.E.G.A.C.
E.G.A.C.D.

I don’t know what they are called but this scale comes from Japan………..

G.A.C.D.E.

So from these notes….C.D.E.G.A…being the… 1st,2nd,3rd,5th,6th notes of the C major scale or Ionian scale, other scales are derived. If we superimpose these note degrees……..1.2.3.5.6. on to the other modes many more pentatonic scales can be derived…….some examples…..,

Dorian Mode….D.E.F.A.B…starting on the 6th note we have the….

Kumoi scale….B.D.E.F.A.

Phrigian Mode…E.F.G.B.C……a scale from West Africa.

And starting on the 6th note………

Hirajoshi Scale…..C.E.F.G.B.

Lydian Mode…F.G.A.C.D…….The F Major Pentatonic and D Minor penta.

Mixolydian Mode…G.A.B.D.E……The G Major pentatonic and E Minor penta.

Aeolian Mode….A.B.C.E.F…..another Hirajoshi Scale….

And starting on the 3rd note…….

Ancient Greek Scale…..C.E.F.A.B……

And starting on the 6th note, a scale from Java……

Pelog Scale…..F.A.B.C.E.

Locrian Mode…..B.C.D.F.G….starting on the 6th note……

Indian Scale….G.B.C.D.F.

All that remains is to transpose these scales to the other keys, perhaps moving around the circle of fifths.




Regards.
Henry.

I can hear music,sweet,sweet music.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/13/2009:  03:17:45

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In Irish and Scottish music they use a pentatonic scale which has been labeled the Dorian pentatonic. 1,2,4,5,7b Which you somewhat mention as being derived from the major pentatonic. It is a very important scale, but is it derived from the Ionain pentatonic? As well all of the look at scales is put in terms of them deriving from a major/minor system. (and somewhat putting it in terms of equal temperament. I think that is looking at it backwards. Harmonically they represent different increments, that is the whole step and half step sizes are not the same.

Scales, as well as circle of fifths, I do not believe are a good place to start with the understanding of music.

George

My friends tell me not to give up my day job - They know I'm unemployed, what are they telling me?

Henry George - Posted - 11/13/2009:  04:11:21

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Thanks for that Dorian Penta....D.E.G,A,C...Then this must be the Phrygian Penta...E,G,A,C,D.

They are derived from the standard major/Ionian pentatonic scale, they are inversions of it.

All these scales are derived from the Major scale and it's modes, and Just Intonation would be the prefered temperament.

The point of the excersise was to demonstrate the number of Pentatonics found in the Major scale and it's modes.

Understanding the circle of fifths will enable one to transpose.

The standard pentas on the tonic, subdominant and the dominant can be sounded over these chords.

One can understand now why the music of Bali sounds as it does.........F,A,B,C,E..............

Regards.
Henry.

I can hear music,sweet,sweet music.

alaskafiddler - Posted - 11/13/2009:  15:50:08

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Trying to understand Bali music from the major/minor system would be very difficult.

The major/minor system is a fairly recent discovery, in terms of music evolution. The other scales/modes were not derived from it, rather the other way around.

The reason I don't think scales are a good place to start is it immediately puts things into an abstract construct. I know many a musicians, some of them quite fine musicians who while they have memorized the major scale, it is just that, and memorized pattern of whole and half steps. They don't have a concrete understanding of why we use those notes. It's just a "rule" sometimes causes misinterpretation problems, following false rules. Most don't actually don't use memorized scales when it comes to playing.

Music isn't really constructed out of scales, it's constructed out of harmonic relationships. Memorizing scales doesn't directly and concretely make one understand how notes work with each other.

The Dorian pentatonic is a good example. If you think of it as a subset of the major/minor system, I think it causes misunderstanding of how it works. Even the name (it's a newer attachment) is misleading, making folks think that the minor third is still part of it. It could easily been called Mixolydian pentatonic (with a major third), but that would also be misleading. As such will be tempted to use that note as a fill note, or want to play either a major chord or minor chord with it. But it really is neither major nor minor. And that's the beauty of it.

One of the big problems with starting with scales (the way they are presented) and circle of fifths, is it gives the idea of mathematical exactness, when they actually have mathematical flaws, and are based a little more on implied. But what is it implying? You have to know what it is implying for it to really makes sense. They become quite useful after that.

George

Henry George - Posted - 11/13/2009:  21:43:15

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The Ancient Greeks developed a system of modes, each relating to a particular emotional and spiritual characteristic. They named these modes after Greek tribes, the temperament and emotions of the peoples was said to be characterized by the unique sound of each mode. Western Music uses all of these modes but changed some names, but they are the same scales, so their renaming is fairly recent. All the modes are derived from the Major scale ( Ionian Mode ), they are all *contained* in this scale, this does not imply historical derivative.


Ancient Greek music was primarily monophonic ( single melodic lines based on a system of modes/scales ) thus allowing the use of inflections/quarter tones (the mathematical flaws), which created a large repertoire of scales. Therefore the 7 modes used today sound unlike the Ancient Greek modes, but they use the same names to describe the 7 scales that are derived from the Major Scale.

Scales are the basis of melodic line. Good vocal melodies usually move by conjunct movement (step wise/scalar) with occasional leaps (disjunct/intervals). Instrumental tunes allow for more melodic movement in leaps, such as, scale in 3rds, 6ths and octaves (this doesn’t mean that the compass of the notes should extent to an octave) which are more common than 4ths, 5ths or 7ths, but they exist. These intervals imply the harmonic structure/relationships which determine how notes work with each other, this is how it all makes sense and thus becomes very useful. This is not just a rule, it is the principle of music.

My study of both types of pentatonic scales demonstrates how each penta scale can be related to the Major Scale, how they are derived from this scale (where they are located/contained in this scale) regardless of historical derivative and of inflections or where the quarter tones may lie. That would be a whole new study in itself.

One can play all these scales on the white notes of the piano and gain a fair idea of the sounds of music from some other cultures, this doesn’t mean to say that an in-depth knowledge of the music of this culture will be gained. As these cultures tend to stay in one mode or pentatonic, western music can use all of them in a single composition.
Interesting to note that the pentas on each mode have a relative scale beginning on the 6th degree which are important to particular cultures.

BTW. The use of the circle of fifths does not necessarily mean to go all the way around, perhaps 4 or 5 keys clockwise and maybe 3 the other way starting from C. This is an ordered way to learn the keys by adding one sharp or flat at a time.

Regards.
Henry.

I can hear music,sweet,sweet music.

haggis - Posted - 12/21/2009:  15:10:31

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quote:

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Originally posted by jameyspratt

What about the scale:

G, Bflat, C, C#, D, F, F#, G

What is this called? Please don't tell me it's crap :-) Seriously, this combination makes for some nice banjo licks, and some pretty cool fiddle licks, though my fiddling is much less accomplished at this point than my banjo playing.

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haggis - Posted - 12/21/2009:  15:19:57

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G, Bflat, C, C#, D, F, F#, G

What is this called? Please don't tell me it's crap :-) Seriously, this combination makes for some nice banjo licks, and some pretty cool fiddle licks, though my fiddling is much less accomplished at this point than my banjo playing.


G,Bb,C,D,F = G Minor Pentatonic. Add C# ( the b5) ,otherwise known as The Devil's Note, and you have a G Blues Scale. F# is a nice jazzy passing note.

transplant - Posted - 12/22/2009:  10:18:07

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quote:

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Originally posted by alaskafiddler


Music isn't really constructed out of scales, it's constructed out of harmonic relationships. Memorizing scales doesn't directly and concretely make one understand how notes work with each other.

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Indeed.

Scales are useful to practise though, cause once your fingers have them solid, you can run from one note to another without thinking about it, and that can be a pleasant ornamental effect.

Practising arpeggios, or any scheme of jumps and even double stops, can be one route to understanding how notes work with each other.

Sorry if that is trite or obvious, but I felt like saying it.