RichJ - Posted - 05/30/2022:  04:22:30

Having struggled with these over the years I found this very gratify to watch... never a waisted move.

youtube.com/watch?v=BypG8OzxfT0

TuneWeaver - Posted - 05/30/2022:  04:51:12

Looks easy, doesn't it.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/30/2022:  06:35:30

That post doesn’t fit. The gap on the bottom is driving me crazy and it looks like the post is being pulled into position under way too much tension.

It’s fun to be able to watch a post being set up from that perspective, but it would be much more palatable if it was a post that was fitted properly or set straight.

DougD - Posted - 05/30/2022:  07:01:45

Rich - Have you ever looked through the endpin hole like that when you set a post? I've seen my (late) luthier do that. I also heard him say "I wish they put windows in these things!"

RichJ - Posted - 05/30/2022:  08:19:27

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

Rich - Have you ever looked through the endpin hole like that when you set a post? I've seen my (late) luthier do that. I also heard him say "I wish they put windows in these things!"

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Doug - No, because I always put a post in with some light string tension on the front plate. It always seemed like a good idea, but then I thought you were supposed to install a post with some tension on the top. Being more or less a hack fiddle repair jocky I consider it  a win just to get one fit and installed. I know experienced luthiers work to a much higher standard of perfection.

The Violin Beautiful - Posted - 05/30/2022:  09:00:27

quote:

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Originally posted by DougD

Rich - Have you ever looked through the endpin hole like that when you set a post? I've seen my (late) luthier do that. I also heard him say "I wish they put windows in these things!"

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Looking through the endpin hole is crucial in the fitting process. You can look through the ffs in a couple places to get an approximate sense, but you can't really tell if it's straight in all axes unless you look from the endpin. I also use a mirror to check the fit all the way around the post at both ends.  It really is worth it.

About the window comment: such things have been made before. I've seen endbuttons with a removable center that allow one to view the sound post, and I've seen endbuttons with lenses. They aren't used much because they're not cost effective enough to be in regular use. I think if someone actually put the time in to produce them en masse, they might sell. Luthiers and players could potentially find them at least interesting. Shaving the shafts down to fit might be difficult, though, because the head is the part that is clamped in the holding jig. 

carlb - Posted - 05/30/2022:  09:32:52

quote:

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Originally posted by RichJ

Having struggled with these over the years I found this very gratify to watch... never a waisted move.

youtube.com/watch?v=BypG8OzxfT0

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The video does not show the fit of the post to the top, but only to the back. I think that's a short coming of this video.

RichJ - Posted - 05/30/2022:  09:47:13

quote:

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Originally posted by carlb

quote:

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Originally posted by RichJ

Having struggled with these over the years I found this very gratify to watch... never a waisted move.

youtube.com/watch?v=BypG8OzxfT0

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The video does not show the fit of the post to the top, but only to the back. I think that's a short coming of this video.

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Hey Carl - Sure didn't mean to post this as the be-all-end-all of sound post setting or to offend anyones idea on how this should be done. I just found the vid enjoyable to watch, mostly in how easy the guy made it look.  

KCFiddles - Posted - 05/30/2022:  10:16:39

quote:

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Originally posted by The Violin Beautiful

That post doesn’t fit. The gap on the bottom is driving me crazy and it looks like the post is being pulled into position under way too much tension.



It’s fun to be able to watch a post being set up from that perspective, but it would be much more palatable if it was a post that was fitted properly or set straight.

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I agree that the post doesn't fit.  If the post doesn't fit, there's no point in putting it in. 

You don't want ANY tension on the strings when you fit a post. I work on too many old violins with "tracks" and gouges in the undersides of the tops to ever tolerate any body recommending that.

I never look through the end pin hole to get my post straight, A mirror, a good light, the end bocks and the corner blocks provide all the alignment reference I need. I will note that David Burgess, a premier American master, made mention that while fit is crucial, he sometimes deliberately places sound posts "other than" perfectly plumb, although I generally go for plumb, myself.

The best way to tell you have a perfect fit is by listening. If you have a good fiddle, it "turns on" in a recognizable way. I lightly dampen the ends of my posts when I am trimming them to fit, since that makes them easier to cut. This also lets me see where the post is bearing on the plate. I also pull the post after it's been installed for a few hours or days, and I can generally tell whether it has been bearing evenly or is tight on one side, and correct it with just a tiny shaving.

One thing for sure: that video is worse than useless, because  it leaves out the most important steps in the most critical part of getting good sound out of a violin, and leads people to believe they can do something that will get them nowhere in particular.

RichJ - Posted - 05/30/2022:  11:40:05

What have I done?

KCFiddles - Posted - 05/30/2022:  12:06:23

quote:

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Originally posted by RichJ

What have I done?

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What you have done is, you have provided an opportunity to get the truth out there, and to correct some misconceptions that can only do damage if they are not challenged. That video shows the steps used to insert a post that already "sorta" fits but gives the impression that that's all there is to it. It says nothing about sizing the post, getting the angles to fit, how to tell whether the ends actually fit, how to test the fit -- all the important parts, that all the people who get paid to make fiddles sound good have to take into account.

So, IMHO, you have provided a valuable opportunity for learning and communication. Thank you.

KCFiddles - Posted - 05/30/2022:  12:22:27

"Knowledge is not skill. Skill is knowledge plus 10,000 times." Shinichi Suzuki.

I could make a video that shows how to fit a sound post, but who would watch it? Who has the patience to practice enough to gain the skill to do it properly? How many people on this forum would actually gain from such an effort. Some may be satisfied with what they already know. Some might pick up a tip here and there.

I learned from a world class maker and other top class luthiers, and it still took me years to get "pretty good" at what I do. I'm happy to share what I have learned, but it takes a lot of work and perseverance to develop skills, once you have knowledge.

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/30/2022:  13:07:30

As well as what's been said, he puts post in way too tight in my opinion. Light pressure for original installation, very light pressure and post slid in just enough to hold its position. Should be able to squeeze the bouts lightly and post will fall. I use very light string pressure when changing post positions after the post has been cut and fitted originally.

bsed55 - Posted - 05/30/2022:  13:09:59

Often, if I need to learn how to do something, I go to U Tube U.

TuneWeaver - Posted - 05/30/2022:  13:37:13

I've always wondered if on ANY fiddle, if the post was ONE mm left or right, top or bottom or One MM longer or shorter, or if the bridge was One mm left or right, front or back.. ...how would the instrument sound.. So many variables...I've set my share of posts and found it very helpful to be able to look through the end pin hole to get a post perpendicular...but maybe one mm out of perpendicular would have given a better sound? I'll never know..

Brian Wood - Posted - 05/30/2022:  14:50:18

quote:

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I've always wondered if on ANY fiddle, if the post was ONE mm left or right, top or bottom or One MM longer or shorter, or if the bridge was One mm left or right, front or back.. ...how would the instrument sound.. So many variables...I've set my share of posts and found it very helpful to be able to look through the end pin hole to get a post perpendicular...but maybe one mm out of perpendicular would have given a better sound? I'll never know..

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I wouldn't think a little out of perpendicular makes much difference in itself. Too far and it might move over time. In my experience moving the top of the post, which matters most, sometimes doesn't have dramatic results, but hopefully lets you find the sweetest spot. I've never experienced a fiddle seeming to become a different fiddle when moving the post either, just bring out its best character. It's good to get the post length correct originally since moving in and out require changing the length. Moving a small ways out to a tighter position can be compensated for by slightly putting the post out of perpendicular but going the other way requires you cut and fit a longer post.

KCFiddles - Posted - 05/30/2022:  16:00:25

quote:

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Originally posted by bsed

Often, if I need to learn how to do something, I go to U Tube U.

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How do you know whether the people on YouTube know what they are talking about?  Anybody can put up a video, no qualifications required. I go to Triangle Strings or Gryphon Strings or maybe Stew-Mac with full confidence, but half the stuff I see on YouTube is just flat out wrong. Seems like you need to have some way of telling which half is which?

KCFiddles - Posted - 05/30/2022:  18:04:35

Davide Sora demonstrates exactly what I was talking about in this video. There's an English translation available in the video. He's a good guy, and definitely a good example to follow.

KCFiddles - Posted - 05/30/2022:  18:50:29

quote:

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Originally posted by TuneWeaver

I've always wondered if on ANY fiddle, if the post was ONE mm left or right, top or bottom or One MM longer or shorter, or if the bridge was One mm left or right, front or back.. ...how would the instrument sound.. So many variables...I've set my share of posts and found it very helpful to be able to look through the end pin hole to get a post perpendicular...but maybe one mm out of perpendicular would have given a better sound? I'll never know..

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One fat mm can be the difference between whether a post will even fit in or not. Usually adjustments in length are on the order of 1/2 mm overall, and the trimmings to get a good fit are shavings measured in thousandths of an inch. Watch the Davide Sora videos I linked to, and you'll see how small. As far as location goes, I usually end up within 1-2mm North or South of "home", or rarely 2 mm east or west.  As far as the bridge is concerned, it goes where it goes for the player, and the sound post is almost always placed in relation to the bridge and the bass bar., not vice versa.

groundhogpeggy - Posted - 05/31/2022:  04:32:41

Hmmm....wondering what Tommy Jarrell would say...