NCnotes - Posted - 02/14/2022:  13:06:59

Little tech question.... :-P



I'm wondering why Fiddle Hangout can't take m4a files?

I am researching best ways to save music files, and what it says about m4a (vs mp3):



"M4A files are encoded with the lossy Advanced Audio Coding (AAC) codec, which is able to provide the same bitrates as MP3s, yet achieve tighter compression. This results in smaller file sizes, all while delivering higher audio quality. It’s like a golden unicorn, which is why it’s become such a popular format for light-weight audio deliveries."



Typically my iphone recordings come out in m4a, so I convert to mp3 online, which is quite easy, but just wondering why FH won't recognize/accept an m4a - since they are supposedly just as small, with better audio quality?



( When I listen to a .wav (large and uncompressed audio file) vs a .mp3 or .m4a though, I can definitely hear the difference!

However .wav (at over 10MB per audio file) is just way too big for easy use - that I understand! )



I know this is a boring techie topic, sorry!

(As a graphic/web designer (day job) I spend a lot of time contemplating digital file formats...so I think/wonder about this stuff...I know I'm weird!)

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/14/2022:  16:21:14

Because the website says so?
Also, isn't m4a an apple proprietary format?

NCnotes - Posted - 02/14/2022:  17:41:29

Yea, not trying to make waves here! :-)

Geeking out a little more...

According to web, m4a is a more modern audio file format...it is in use by default on Apple devices and for itunes, but can also be played by Google Play and Windows Media Player. It has a higher bitrate & better sound quality for the same filesize. But m4a files do not play well on all android devices. (However I don't think it's "proprietary" to the level that only Apple platforms can use it.)

mp3 is an older file format (more loss in sound quality) but it is still the most universally used, and is the most compatible with all players and devices.

Until there is more universal support for m4a files, it would not be practical for FH to use that file format (I answered my own question!!)

( I came across this question because recording recently, I wound up with an m4a which I then converted to an mp3, and then I wondered what the difference is between the 2 formats. It seems that you lose a bit of audio quality with the conversion.)

DougD - Posted - 02/14/2022:  17:52:52

One problem with "lossy" file formats is that you lose a little every time the file is opened and resaved. So its too bad you have to make the conversion. Mp3, at least in the beginning, was also a "proprietary" format, and couldn't be offered by a program without paying a license fee. For this reason Audacity didn't provide it without an extra plug-in. That may no longer be true. I imagine its specified here because its so widely used.
PS - MP3 was not "proprietary" in the sense that it was owned by one company, but the technology depended on numerous patents owned by various companies. Apparently these have all expired as of 2017.

Edited by - DougD on 02/14/2022 18:04:38

ChickenMan - Posted - 02/14/2022:  18:37:01

I prefer wave files.

pete_fiddle - Posted - 02/15/2022:  00:56:14

Yes i think wave (at high resolution) sounds best, and gives the most control with eq etc. Then converted to mp3 or some other compression is ok for most folk listening over ear buds or tiny speakers in less than perfect audio environments. But sounds less than perfect on decent equipment in nice listening rooms when compared to a good wave file. i think the sound is altered as soon as it hits the mic anyway.

Is m4a for video and audio, rather than just audio? Does the site accept m4a files for video?

DougD - Posted - 02/15/2022:  01:25:13

When you add a video to this site I don't think you actually upload the file at all, in any format. You just enter the YouTube URL for the video - that is the video has to be on YouTube to begin with.
Maybe others can comment on this. I try to avoid video and YouTube.

carlb - Posted - 02/15/2022:  04:35:25

As far as videos, I've done a few on Facebook. In the cases where I want to use them in a post, I just use a link as many of you have for various YouTube videos. However, these cannot be inserted directly into a post like the personal YouTube ones. Eric would have to OK direct insertion of videos from other sites, which he hasn't done yet.

NCnotes - Posted - 02/15/2022:  18:49:55

Well, here is my SuperGeeking after yet more reading...(sorry)

If you want the "best" uncompressed original recording of your music, keep the recording somewhere as a .wav or .aiff file. These are uncompressed formats. They are humongous files, like 10MB a second...but if you have those, you can always generate compressed audio formats from them.

The next best thing is an m4a file using Apple's special "Lossless" format (ALAC code - a smaller file which retains the quality of the original recording). The next best thing after that, is an m4a file with "Lossy" format (AAC codec - but for the same filesize, you get a higher bitrate...which means, better sound.)

And after that, is mp3. This compressed format is universal and easy to use, can be played anywhere, on anything.

An m4a file is "audio only" - and was designed to be audio only. And there are dozens more file formats, which I am not going to bother to read about...
(but feel free to ask me about .jpg vs .png vs .gif vs .eps vs .tif vs vs .pdf if you have trouble falling asleep!)

LOL sorry for the geekout, but I did find it useful to know this stuff for recording/posting music. :-)

( I never use YouTube, I hate the flat-faced way I look when I play! )

DougD - Posted - 02/15/2022:  19:39:23

If I'm going to go to the trouble of recording something I'll save it as a .wav file and convert it later for its intended use. I try not to record "nonsense" - just noodling around and so forth. Most of these formats do not imply a specific audio quality - they are "containers" with some specified format and protocols, but the audio quality can vary. The exception is the CD, which must have a sampling rate of 44.1 KHz and 16 bit depth. Its convenient to record audio destined for CD at that quality and avoid a conversion. Files like that are 10MB per minute of stereo - large, but not really "humongous," especially with the price of storage today. A CD can hold about 75 minutes of audio, but I've been looking at 128 GB SD cards and flash drives - about $22 in either format.
As far as "quality," the bit depth determines the dynamic range and accuracy, while the sampling rate determines the highest frequency that can be recorded with reasonable fidelity. For live recording I sometimes use 24 bit to have a little extra headroom. I just came across some archival copies I'd made of some recordings of historical interest that are 24 bit, 96KHz. They are on DVDs as data files, since this is not the CD standard.
Probably a far cry from an iPhone!

pete_fiddle - Posted - 02/16/2022:  06:29:37

quote:

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Originally posted by NCnotes

Well, here is my SuperGeeking after yet more reading...(sorry)



If you want the "best" uncompressed original recording of your music, keep the recording somewhere as a .wav or .aiff file. These are uncompressed formats. They are humongous files, like 10MB a second...but if you have those, you can always generate compressed audio formats from them.



The next best thing is an m4a file using Apple's special "Lossless" format (ALAC code - a smaller file which retains the quality of the original recording). The next best thing after that, is an m4a file with "Lossy" format (AAC codec - but for the same filesize, you get a higher bitrate...which means, better sound.)



And after that, is mp3. This compressed format is universal and easy to use, can be played anywhere, on anything.



An m4a file is "audio only" - and was designed to be audio only. And there are dozens more file formats, which I am not going to bother to read about...

(but feel free to ask me about .jpg vs .png vs .gif vs .eps vs .tif vs vs .pdf if you have trouble falling asleep!)



LOL sorry for the geekout, but I did find it useful to know this stuff for recording/posting music. :-)



( I never use YouTube, I hate the flat-faced way I look when I play! )

---

Geeking is good. i tend to Geek out on a need to know basis. Usually economically based Geeking...So i suppose that's why Apple doesn't figure much in my equations :o)....But they have excellent kit...A bit like Bang & Olufsen Back in the day, They used to deliver your new "HiFi" in a Rolls Royce, if you had enough dosh...i wonder if Apple do that ?

NCnotes - Posted - 02/16/2022:  07:40:24

Thanks guys, for not making me feel like a weirdo!

I'm a newbie at recording stuff (unlike Doug above :-)
but I can hear the difference between a .wav and an mp3...the .wav sounds rich and full in comparison to the mp3.

Some people swear by Records still and have Record-Players. I almost feel like I have to bring my kids (and rip out their earbuds) to go look at one and listen to one...music delivery has evolved so fast! :-)

Lonesome Fiddler - Posted - 02/16/2022:  12:12:17

This dyed-in-the-wool audiophile thinks that mp3 files can possess a very likeable sound quality.Yeah, the high-rez files do add soundstaging and tons of detail, but it still doesn't quite match the true sound of the fiddle in your left ear or that live jam you're sawing away with alongside your fellow acoustic players.

DougD - Posted - 02/16/2022:  13:28:20

NCnotes - My long post above was really to make just two points:
1. A CD quality .wav file is about 10 MB per stereo minute, not per second. A three minute recrding is about 30 MB, and a CD, which I think is about 800 MB, can hold 75 minutes or so of audio.
2 The file format (.wav, .aiff, .mp3 etc.) does not imply a certain audio quality. There can be lots of different types of .wav files, and different streams rates for .mp3.

Can you save your recordings as .aiff files, and then convert them to .mp3 to post here, and avoid one more lossy format? Then you could convert it to another one of the Apple formats and discard the original.
I have a file converter app on this tablet that offers 13 output formats, and is very fast.

NCnotes - Posted - 02/16/2022:  19:46:56

Thanks Doug!
1. Yea sorry, I did mistype/misremember. 10MB/second would be insane file size!
2. Thanks for enlightenment!

I may upgrade my recording device...currently I use "voice memos" on my iphone, ha. It saves an m4a, and then I upload into Cloud Convert and download it as an mp3, which is able to be posted. Husband ordered a USB mic for me...it's a "blue yeti"...so I'll see how that is and if I can make a .wav or .aiff with it. ( I was happy enough with fiddle/violin in Voice Memo, but guitar always sounds blurry and boomy.)

alaskafiddler - Posted - 02/17/2022:  11:05:05

Maybe I'm missing something... but were talking an iphone recording? Probably not a studio recording or audiophile quality. As well likely played back on phone, tablet, laptop... and the recording wasn't even mastered to sound great on those.

I think it's a little odd to much concern about compression loss of quality comparisons of mp3, m4a, Ogg Vorbis, WMA to FLAC, WAV or AIFF.

FWIW, Youtube and any streaming site (Spotify, iTunes) will use compression. 

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One alternative might mention... is to using another app that allow to download/export tracks as mp3. Maybe AVR or Garageband?

BandLab is free app can do this; is perhaps a good option, has all sorts of other features like a DAW; multitrack recording, click/metronome, MIDI/virtual instruments, import, and project collaboration.